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Digital BW, The Print

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Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-11 by Luke Granfield

Did you do a nozzle check? My muddy prints have all been the result of
nozzles not squirting and it does look very different from the monitor.

Luke

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:35 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"


> 1160 with MIS sepia>neutral inkset on EAM & Paul's curves.
>
> I just cant get "snap" & "sparkle" into my prints. They tend to be
> too "flat" I don't really know how else to describe it.

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-11 by frankg_photo

yes, i regularly check that all nozzles are firing.


> Did you do a nozzle check? My muddy prints have all been the result 
of
> nozzles not squirting and it does look very different from the 
monitor.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Luke
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "frankg_photo" <frank@f...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:35 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"
> 
> 
> > 1160 with MIS sepia>neutral inkset on EAM & Paul's curves.
> >
> > I just cant get "snap" & "sparkle" into my prints. They tend to be
> > too "flat" I don't really know how else to describe it.

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-11 by Martin Wesley

Frank,

That is pretty hard to answer. I think we all struggle getting just the
right combination of adjustments to get that "snap". It is difficult in the
darkroom and in digital. It can take awhile in either medium. So it could be
a craft and skill issue. If you don't feel this is the case, then try
different curves or combine curves (two curve adjustment layers with
different curves and adjust the opacity of the top layer).

Other than that you can try different papers or inks.

Kind of hard to say. By muddy is the overall contrast weak? A lack of local
contrast? Is it in a particular tonal range?

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:35 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"


> 1160 with MIS sepia>neutral inkset on EAM & Paul's curves.
>
> I just cant get "snap" & "sparkle" into my prints. They tend to be
> too "flat" I don't really know how else to describe it.
>
> I'm using curves and/levels to set black points & white and adjusting
> the midtones, highlights & shadows - and it looks good on the monitor
> (Win98SE) but not on the print. So I go back after seeing a print and
> make levels or curves adjustments to compensate, but I just cant get
> there.
>
> Is this something everyone fights with or is my "profile" wrong/bad
> or ?
>
> thanks for ideas,
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-11 by Jerry Olson

Frank, 

Have you tried the auto levels, or auto contrast?  Sometimes this works,
sometimes not, but at least you'll have a white and a black point set,
so you shouldn't get flat prints.

Jerry

> > I just cant get "snap" & "sparkle" into my prints. They tend to be
> > too "flat" I don't really know how else to describe it.

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-12 by frankg_photo

Martin,
You are right that my skill level has definitely not caught up with 
what I'd love to see on paper. For sure I cannot blame poor tools or 
materials for not being able to bend the materials & craft a fine  
print There is much to learn! Ive tried the auto levels/curves that 
Jerry has suggested but usually find that using the droppers and 
shaping a curve or sliding the levels gets me closer. Even with a 
black point set, I just always seem to be fighting against a 
blah 'flatness'/'evenness'/'muddyness' - perhaps it's worse when I 
apply a stronger col tone curve (sepia>neutral mis inkset)- maybe the 
toner ink col fills in more than just the density required i.e. it 
adds col tone density plus the basic density value ? Not sure if that 
statement/question makes sense ? 
Frank
btw my daughter is in the finishing stages of putting together a 
webpage for me - i invite you all to have a look at
www.frankgross.com


> Frank,
> 
> That is pretty hard to answer. I think we all struggle getting just 
the
> right combination of adjustments to get that "snap". It is 
difficult in the
> darkroom and in digital. It can take awhile in either medium. So it 
could be
> a craft and skill issue. If you don't feel this is the case, then 
try
> different curves or combine curves (two curve adjustment layers with
> different curves and adjust the opacity of the top layer).
> 
> Other than that you can try different papers or inks.
> 
> Kind of hard to say. By muddy is the overall contrast weak? A lack 
of local
> contrast? Is it in a particular tonal range?
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "frankg_photo" <frank@f...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:35 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"
> 
> 
> > 1160 with MIS sepia>neutral inkset on EAM & Paul's curves.
> >
> > I just cant get "snap" & "sparkle" into my prints. They tend to be
> > too "flat" I don't really know how else to describe it.
> >
> > I'm using curves and/levels to set black points & white and 
adjusting
> > the midtones, highlights & shadows - and it looks good on the 
monitor
> > (Win98SE) but not on the print. So I go back after seeing a print 
and
> > make levels or curves adjustments to compensate, but I just cant 
get
> > there.
> >
> > Is this something everyone fights with or is my "profile" 
wrong/bad
> > or ?
> >
> > thanks for ideas,
> > Frank
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
> >
> >

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-12 by Martin Wesley

Frank,

Without your prints in front of me I really don't know where to point you.
You might go back to basics and make the digital equivalent of a straight
print on #2 paper which I do by taking the scan and doing only a levels
adjustment consisting of setting the black and white points just outside the
limits of image information (maybe cheat a little on the black and bring it
into the bottom edge). Then put the file through your printing process and
see what your basic information looks like.

Looking at that "straight print" decide where you want to go with the
overall contrast and brightness. Then do an adjustment using a
Brightness/Contrast layer. This may not be the most sophisticated adjustment
tool but it will be more intuitive to start with. Starting with the
"straight print" file try printing some variations at +/- 10% and 20%
Contrast and Brightness to get a feel for how the results look on paper.

Try ignoring the screen image and make your adjustments based on looking at
the last print and deciding what needs to be done. Just like darkroom work.

The only other thing I can think of is something like the Digital Zone
System software which I have never used myself but a couple of people on the
list who tried it said that it was helpful.
http://www.digitalfilmtools.com/html/ozone.html

Use your website to post scans of the prints that are giving problems and
maybe with a visual image people can offer some advice.

On the VM inks, the toner always gets printed no matter what curve you use.
The curves adjust where in the tone ramp it gets added and how wide. For the
strong color the toner is applied broadly and far up into the high lights
for the weak color or neutral in your case, the toner is buried down in the
deep shadows. The density of the toner is accounted for in the curves. Don't
use the sliders in the driver to adjust the color. Always leave them at
zero.

Your site is looking good and you have some very impressive work in there! I
added a link to your site in the Bookmarks section under Photographers.

Good luck and keep asking questions,

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"


> Martin,
> You are right that my skill level has definitely not caught up with
> what I'd love to see on paper. For sure I cannot blame poor tools or
> materials for not being able to bend the materials & craft a fine
> print There is much to learn! Ive tried the auto levels/curves that
> Jerry has suggested but usually find that using the droppers and
> shaping a curve or sliding the levels gets me closer. Even with a
> black point set, I just always seem to be fighting against a
> blah 'flatness'/'evenness'/'muddyness' - perhaps it's worse when I
> apply a stronger col tone curve (sepia>neutral mis inkset)- maybe the
> toner ink col fills in more than just the density required i.e. it
> adds col tone density plus the basic density value ? Not sure if that
> statement/question makes sense ?
> Frank
> btw my daughter is in the finishing stages of putting together a
> webpage for me - i invite you all to have a look at
> www.frankgross.com
>
>
> > Frank,
> >
> > That is pretty hard to answer. I think we all struggle getting just
> the
> > right combination of adjustments to get that "snap". It is
> difficult in the
> > darkroom and in digital. It can take awhile in either medium. So it
> could be
> > a craft and skill issue. If you don't feel this is the case, then
> try
> > different curves or combine curves (two curve adjustment layers with
> > different curves and adjust the opacity of the top layer).
> >
> > Other than that you can try different papers or inks.
> >
> > Kind of hard to say. By muddy is the overall contrast weak? A lack
> of local
> > contrast? Is it in a particular tonal range?
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "frankg_photo" <frank@f...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:35 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"
> >
> >
> > > 1160 with MIS sepia>neutral inkset on EAM & Paul's curves.
> > >
> > > I just cant get "snap" & "sparkle" into my prints. They tend to be
> > > too "flat" I don't really know how else to describe it.
> > >
> > > I'm using curves and/levels to set black points & white and
> adjusting
> > > the midtones, highlights & shadows - and it looks good on the
> monitor
> > > (Win98SE) but not on the print. So I go back after seeing a print
> and
> > > make levels or curves adjustments to compensate, but I just cant
> get
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Is this something everyone fights with or is my "profile"
> wrong/bad
> > > or ?
> > >
> > > thanks for ideas,
> > > Frank
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-12 by workmantx@aol.com

Frank,

I'll confess to being a "newbie" at this, but last week I came up with a 
solution that I'm very happy with to give more "snap" to my photos.  I think 
I learn something every day from my experiments and reading the email from 
the members of our forum.

Anyway, here's what I'm doing now using B&W negatives scanned in 14-bit mode, 
my Espson 1280, the MIS-VM inks, PS7 and Paul's curves:

1)  Make all major adjustments to image in 16-bit mode. I set black and white 
points first, and then continue to tweak curve several times until I'm happy 
with image on the monitor. 

2)  Convert to 8-bit mode.

3)  Make two background copy layers (1st one is probably not necessary, but I 
do it just in case I want to do some, DARE I ADMIT IT, dodging or burning in 
after I do my first test print.

4)  Above the first background copy layer, add a curve adjustment layer and 
load one of Paul's curve (I've been using his MW curve).  Then set the Fill 
to around 70% to begin with.  (I've been use the Fill % rather than Opacity 
%.)  Keep layer type as Normal.

5)  In the second background copy layer (your top layer) change layer type to 
Overlay and then adjust the Opacity to around 80% to begin with.

This has made an incredible difference to the quality of my prints.  I no 
longer have any posterization, and my prints don't look flat or muddy.  I 
have found that in the strong highlight areas, I might have do a bit of "burn 
in" because of the impact of the overlay layer, but it's very manageable.  
Playing with the Fill % makes a difference, too.

Let me know if you try this out and find some improvement.

Bob

Sepia-Neutral ink set on www.frankgross.com (was Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy")

2002-08-12 by Sam A. McCandless

Frank's daughter must be good: his web site serves his images up 
fast, even on my slow connection, and the site looks good too.

I'm curious to know whether all the images shown were printed with 
the MIS VM Sepia-Neutral ink set, even the ones which don't look like 
sepia? One thing I like about Sepia-Neutral is how neutral its 
neutral is.

Sam
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Martin,
>You are right that my skill level has definitely not caught up with
>what I'd love to see on paper. For sure I cannot blame poor tools or
>materials for not being able to bend the materials & craft a fine
>print There is much to learn! Ive tried the auto levels/curves that
>Jerry has suggested but usually find that using the droppers and
>shaping a curve or sliding the levels gets me closer. Even with a
>black point set, I just always seem to be fighting against a
>blah 'flatness'/'evenness'/'muddyness' - perhaps it's worse when I
>apply a stronger col tone curve (sepia>neutral mis inkset)- maybe the
>toner ink col fills in more than just the density required i.e. it
>adds col tone density plus the basic density value ? Not sure if that
>statement/question makes sense ?
>Frank
>btw my daughter is in the finishing stages of putting together a
>webpage for me - i invite you all to have a look at
>www.frankgross.com

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-12 by workmantx@aol.com

Frank,

When I sent my first email this morning, I forgot to put in that besides 
converting to 8-bit, I convert to RGB before loading one of Paul's curves.  
I've added that to the steps below.

>
>

I'll confess to being a "newbie" at this, but last week I came up with a 
solution that I'm very happy with to give more "snap" to my photos.  I think 
I learn something every day from my experiments and reading the email from 
the members of our forum.

Anyway, here's what I'm doing now using B&W negatives scanned in 14-bit mode, 

my Espson 1280, the MIS-VM inks, PS7 and Paul's curves:

1)  Make all major adjustments to image in 16-bit mode. I set black and white 

points first, and then continue to tweak curve several times until I'm happy 
with image on the monitor. 

2)  Convert to 8-bit mode and convert from Grayscale to RGB..

3)  Make two background copy layers (1st one is probably not necessary, but I 

do it just in case I want to do some, DARE I ADMIT IT, dodging or burning in 
after I do my first test print.

4)  Above the first background copy layer, add a curve adjustment layer and 
load one of Paul's curve (I've been using his MW curve).  Then set the Fill 
to around 70% to begin with.  (I've been use the Fill % rather than Opacity 
%.)  Keep layer type as Normal.

5)  In the second background copy layer (your top layer) change layer type to 

Overlay and then adjust the Opacity to around 80% to begin with.

This has made an incredible difference to the quality of my prints.  I no 
longer have any posterization, and my prints don't look flat or muddy.  I 
have found that in the strong highlight areas, I might have do a bit of "burn 

in" because of the impact of the overlay layer, but it's very manageable.  
Playing with the Fill % makes a difference, too.

Let me know if you try this out and find some improvement.

Bob

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-12 by frankg_photo

Thank you for all this - I will try it.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... wrote:
> Frank,
> 
> When I sent my first email this morning, I forgot to put in that 
besides 
> converting to 8-bit, I convert to RGB before loading one of Paul's 
curves.  
> I've added that to the steps below.
> 
> >
> >
> 
> I'll confess to being a "newbie" at this, but last week I came up 
with a 
> solution that I'm very happy with to give more "snap" to my 
photos.  I think 
> I learn something every day from my experiments and reading the 
email from 
> the members of our forum.
> 
> Anyway, here's what I'm doing now using B&W negatives scanned in 14-
bit mode, 
> 
> my Espson 1280, the MIS-VM inks, PS7 and Paul's curves:
> 
> 1)  Make all major adjustments to image in 16-bit mode. I set black 
and white 
> 
> points first, and then continue to tweak curve several times until 
I'm happy 
> with image on the monitor. 
> 
> 2)  Convert to 8-bit mode and convert from Grayscale to RGB..
> 
> 3)  Make two background copy layers (1st one is probably not 
necessary, but I 
> 
> do it just in case I want to do some, DARE I ADMIT IT, dodging or 
burning in 
> after I do my first test print.
> 
> 4)  Above the first background copy layer, add a curve adjustment 
layer and 
> load one of Paul's curve (I've been using his MW curve).  Then set 
the Fill 
> to around 70% to begin with.  (I've been use the Fill % rather than 
Opacity 
> %.)  Keep layer type as Normal.
> 
> 5)  In the second background copy layer (your top layer) change 
layer type to 
> 
> Overlay and then adjust the Opacity to around 80% to begin with.
> 
> This has made an incredible difference to the quality of my 
prints.  I no 
> longer have any posterization, and my prints don't look flat or 
muddy.  I 
> have found that in the strong highlight areas, I might have do a 
bit of "burn 
> 
> in" because of the impact of the overlay layer, but it's very 
manageable.  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Playing with the Fill % makes a difference, too.
> 
> Let me know if you try this out and find some improvement.
> 
> Bob

Sepia-Neutral ink set on www.frankgross.com (was Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy")

2002-08-12 by frankg_photo

Sam
for the webpage the tone was done via Col Adjustment  (some 
red+yellow). No printing. Scanned>PS>Webpage.

I have printed many of them with the inkset - some successfull others 
aweful - hence the "muddy" print post
Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless" 
<samcc@v...> wrote:
> Frank's daughter must be good: his web site serves his images up 
> fast, even on my slow connection, and the site looks good too.
> 
> I'm curious to know whether all the images shown were printed with 
> the MIS VM Sepia-Neutral ink set, even the ones which don't look 
like 
> sepia? One thing I like about Sepia-Neutral is how neutral its 
> neutral is.
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> >Martin,
> >You are right that my skill level has definitely not caught up with
> >what I'd love to see on paper. For sure I cannot blame poor tools 
or
> >materials for not being able to bend the materials & craft a fine
> >print There is much to learn! Ive tried the auto levels/curves that
> >Jerry has suggested but usually find that using the droppers and
> >shaping a curve or sliding the levels gets me closer. Even with a
> >black point set, I just always seem to be fighting against a
> >blah 'flatness'/'evenness'/'muddyness' - perhaps it's worse when I
> >apply a stronger col tone curve (sepia>neutral mis inkset)- maybe 
the
> >toner ink col fills in more than just the density required i.e. it
> >adds col tone density plus the basic density value ? Not sure if 
that
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >statement/question makes sense ?
> >Frank
> >btw my daughter is in the finishing stages of putting together a
> >webpage for me - i invite you all to have a look at
> >www.frankgross.com

Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"

2002-08-12 by frankg_photo

-Martin,
Thanks for linking my site on the groups Bookmarks page.
Frank
www.frankgross.com


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Frank,
> 
> Without your prints in front of me I really don't know where to 
point you.
> You might go back to basics and make the digital equivalent of a 
straight
> print on #2 paper which I do by taking the scan and doing only a 
levels
> adjustment consisting of setting the black and white points just 
outside the
> limits of image information (maybe cheat a little on the black and 
bring it
> into the bottom edge). Then put the file through your printing 
process and
> see what your basic information looks like.
> 
> Looking at that "straight print" decide where you want to go with 
the
> overall contrast and brightness. Then do an adjustment using a
> Brightness/Contrast layer. This may not be the most sophisticated 
adjustment
> tool but it will be more intuitive to start with. Starting with the
> "straight print" file try printing some variations at +/- 10% and 
20%
> Contrast and Brightness to get a feel for how the results look on 
paper.
> 
> Try ignoring the screen image and make your adjustments based on 
looking at
> the last print and deciding what needs to be done. Just like 
darkroom work.
> 
> The only other thing I can think of is something like the Digital 
Zone
> System software which I have never used myself but a couple of 
people on the
> list who tried it said that it was helpful.
> http://www.digitalfilmtools.com/html/ozone.html
> 
> Use your website to post scans of the prints that are giving 
problems and
> maybe with a visual image people can offer some advice.
> 
> On the VM inks, the toner always gets printed no matter what curve 
you use.
> The curves adjust where in the tone ramp it gets added and how 
wide. For the
> strong color the toner is applied broadly and far up into the high 
lights
> for the weak color or neutral in your case, the toner is buried 
down in the
> deep shadows. The density of the toner is accounted for in the 
curves. Don't
> use the sliders in the driver to adjust the color. Always leave 
them at
> zero.
> 
> Your site is looking good and you have some very impressive work in 
there! I
> added a link to your site in the Bookmarks section under 
Photographers.
> 
> Good luck and keep asking questions,
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "frankg_photo" <frank@f...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 7:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"
> 
> 
> > Martin,
> > You are right that my skill level has definitely not caught up 
with
> > what I'd love to see on paper. For sure I cannot blame poor tools 
or
> > materials for not being able to bend the materials & craft a fine
> > print There is much to learn! Ive tried the auto levels/curves 
that
> > Jerry has suggested but usually find that using the droppers and
> > shaping a curve or sliding the levels gets me closer. Even with a
> > black point set, I just always seem to be fighting against a
> > blah 'flatness'/'evenness'/'muddyness' - perhaps it's worse when I
> > apply a stronger col tone curve (sepia>neutral mis inkset)- maybe 
the
> > toner ink col fills in more than just the density required i.e. it
> > adds col tone density plus the basic density value ? Not sure if 
that
> > statement/question makes sense ?
> > Frank
> > btw my daughter is in the finishing stages of putting together a
> > webpage for me - i invite you all to have a look at
> > www.frankgross.com
> >
> >
> > > Frank,
> > >
> > > That is pretty hard to answer. I think we all struggle getting 
just
> > the
> > > right combination of adjustments to get that "snap". It is
> > difficult in the
> > > darkroom and in digital. It can take awhile in either medium. 
So it
> > could be
> > > a craft and skill issue. If you don't feel this is the case, 
then
> > try
> > > different curves or combine curves (two curve adjustment layers 
with
> > > different curves and adjust the opacity of the top layer).
> > >
> > > Other than that you can try different papers or inks.
> > >
> > > Kind of hard to say. By muddy is the overall contrast weak? A 
lack
> > of local
> > > contrast? Is it in a particular tonal range?
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "frankg_photo" <frank@f...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:35 PM
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] prints looking "muddy"
> > >
> > >
> > > > 1160 with MIS sepia>neutral inkset on EAM & Paul's curves.
> > > >
> > > > I just cant get "snap" & "sparkle" into my prints. They tend 
to be
> > > > too "flat" I don't really know how else to describe it.
> > > >
> > > > I'm using curves and/levels to set black points & white and
> > adjusting
> > > > the midtones, highlights & shadows - and it looks good on the
> > monitor
> > > > (Win98SE) but not on the print. So I go back after seeing a 
print
> > and
> > > > make levels or curves adjustments to compensate, but I just 
cant
> > get
> > > > there.
> > > >
> > > > Is this something everyone fights with or is my "profile"
> > wrong/bad
> > > > or ?
> > > >
> > > > thanks for ideas,
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> > Polls and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > >
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> > > >
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> >
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