Digital BW, The Print

Does anybody know how one might salvage a new CIS system, where three of
the inks didn't go into the cartridges?  The other three did. I placed
the bottles on their sides, and the cartridges a foot lower, hoping
gravity would suck the inks into the cartridges, but it didn't.

I'll have a new one Monday, (With luck), but what would happen if you
inserted a syringe into the bottom of the cartridges and tried to suck
the inks into the cartridges that way?  

Jerry

>  but what would happen if you
> inserted a syringe into the bottom of the cartridges and tried to suck
> the inks into the cartridges that way?  
> 
> Jerry

It's  a very good chance that would work! As I did something simular on a lazy 
color cart and it worked. Also you could try using the syringe on the vent tube 
and add pressure to the bottle. Probably keep the carts lower with both 
technques.

John V.

Jerry,

The original method of filling a CIS was by putting an empty syringe in
through the exit port seal and pulling ink out of the bottles, through the
tube and into the cart. MIS has a little plastic adapter just for this. I
have had to do it a couple of times when I lost vacuum. You can also go
ahead and try pulling a vacuum again. You will get a whole of ink into the
vacuum pump but it can be cleaned up.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PiezoTones vs. Epson 2200


> Does anybody know how one might salvage a new CIS system, where three of
> the inks didn't go into the cartridges?  The other three did. I placed
> the bottles on their sides, and the cartridges a foot lower, hoping
> gravity would suck the inks into the cartridges, but it didn't.
>
> I'll have a new one Monday, (With luck), but what would happen if you
> inserted a syringe into the bottom of the cartridges and tried to suck
> the inks into the cartridges that way?
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>

Thanks John.

The new CIS system has changed.  There is no vent tube, there's a filter
on top of the bottles. The ink tube is attached inside the bottle to a
hole in the bottle, and you actually screw the end of the inktubes to
the neck of the bottle.

Jerry




johnvphoto wrote:

> 
> >  but what would happen if you
> > inserted a syringe into the bottom of the cartridges and tried to suck
> > the inks into the cartridges that way?
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> It's  a very good chance that would work! As I did something simular on a lazy
> color cart and it worked. Also you could try using the syringe on the vent tube
> and add pressure to the bottle. Probably keep the carts lower with both
> technques.
> 
> John V.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

How did my question get hijacked.

What about some answers from those piezo (or even MIS) users with recent 
2200 purchases.

Jerry,

> Does anybody know how one might salvage a new CIS system, where 
three of
> the inks didn't go into the cartridges?  The other three did. I 
placed
> the bottles on their sides, and the cartridges a foot lower, hoping
> gravity would suck the inks into the cartridges, but it didn't.
> 
> I'll have a new one Monday, (With luck), but what would happen if 
you
> inserted a syringe into the bottom of the cartridges and tried to 
suck
> the inks into the cartridges that way?  

I don't know what this has to do with Piezo vs 2200 printing but 
using a syringe to suck ink into a cart is SOP with CFS carts when 
initially priming them for use (also after that if the cart looses 
its prime). In short it should work well (probably easier since CIS 
carts don't have internal sponges).


Don Bryant

Jerry -

Which cis is this Jerry? It doesn't sound like the CIS from 
NoMoreCarts.com. Is it the "Niagra II" cis, I think it's called, 
which MediaStreet has substituted for the NMC CIS? (I thought 
MediaStreet was sweetening their cis-plus-ink bundle by selling their 
cis already filled with their inks?) Is the replacement cis you hope 
to get on Monday also from MediaStreet and also not pre-filled?

Thanks.

Sam

>Thanks John.
>
>The new CIS system has changed.  There is no vent tube, there's a filter
>on top of the bottles. The ink tube is attached inside the bottle to a
>hole in the bottle, and you actually screw the end of the inktubes to
>the neck of the bottle.
>
>Jerry
>
>
>
>
>johnvphoto wrote:
> >
> > >  but what would happen if you
> > > inserted a syringe into the bottom of the cartridges and tried to suck
> > > the inks into the cartridges that way?
> > >
> > > Jerry
> >
> > It's  a very good chance that would work! As I did something 
>simular on a lazy
> > color cart and it worked. Also you could try using the syringe on 
>the vent tube
> > and add pressure to the bottle. Probably keep the carts lower with both
> > technques.
> >
> > John V.

I don't remember either of my NoMoreCarts.com's CIS'es being at all 
like this. So I wonder whether this "new CIS" is in fact _the_ CIS 
from NMC.

Sam McCandless

>Jerry,
>
>The original method of filling a CIS was by putting an empty syringe in
>through the exit port seal and pulling ink out of the bottles, through the
>tube and into the cart. MIS has a little plastic adapter just for this. I
>have had to do it a couple of times when I lost vacuum. You can also go
>ahead and try pulling a vacuum again. You will get a whole of ink into the
>vacuum pump but it can be cleaned up.
>
>Martin Wesley
>
>http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:27 PM
>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of PiezoTones vs. Epson 2200
>
>
> > Does anybody know how one might salvage a new CIS system, where three of
> > the inks didn't go into the cartridges?  The other three did. I placed
> > the bottles on their sides, and the cartridges a foot lower, hoping
> > gravity would suck the inks into the cartridges, but it didn't.
> >
> > I'll have a new one Monday, (With luck), but what would happen if you
> > inserted a syringe into the bottom of the cartridges and tried to suck
> > the inks into the cartridges that way?
> >
> > Jerry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "lawrencetrek" <ltitle@h...> wrote:
> How did my question get hijacked.
> 
> What about some answers from those piezo (or even MIS) users with recent 
> 2200 purchases.

I use the MIS VM inks with a 1270 and have made some qualitative 
comparisons to the Epson 2200 here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200-bw.shtml
See also Martin's step-wedge measurements for the 2200 and MIS VM in the 
files section of this forum.

Yes, I found that late last night.  I was waiting for it, after you offered it to 
Michael in his discussion forum.  After reading it a few times I still have 
questions.

First, I must say I am rather naive when it comes to color management etc.  

Questions:

1)  You said when you used the canned profile under print space with NCA 
the image was rel. neutral, slightly warm.  But it was lacking separation in the 
shadows (as borne out with the step wedge).  Yet, your new workflow uses 
postscript color management with relative colorimetric intent under print 
space and you change to the color controls with photo realistic.  It seems to 
me you made two changes, and I am not sure why you didn't leave the print 
space unchanged with the canned profile and just change the NCA to color 
controls ?  Remember I am naive.  With your method, where is the canned 
profile coming into play.  (perhaps under media selected)

2) You set gamma at 1.8.  If my monitor is calibrated at gamma 2.2 and D65, 
does one still use a gamma 1.8 to print.

3) You favour colormatch RGB for your print space.  Do you see any benefit 
between this vs. Adobe RGB (1998).  

4)  You compare these prints to your VM prints in your final paragraph.  Given 
your experience and observations, if you were just starting off today would 
you still go the MIS VM route (e.g. buy a new 1280) or would you be willing to 
start off with the 2200 as a combined color / BW machine.  If you were a 
collector and bought one of your 2200 BW prints, would you be upset with the 
degree of metamerism.  Do you see any metamerism with your VM prints ?

5)  Are you considering custom profiles or GB to try to optimize your workflow 
?

Thanks for all of your help.   Sorry for some of the stupid questions.

Lawrence,

At this point I have a fair amount of experience with the Selenium
PiezoTones and three prints and some step wedges on EAM from Carl
Schofield's 2200 to compare. Carl's prints were done with the supplied Epson
driver and no custom profiles.

What I see in the 2200 prints is a neutral tone print with no color
crossovers and very mild metamerism. Like the 2000P prints they tend toward
the magenta-purple in tungsten light and toward yellow or yellow-green in
daylight. The amount is much, much less than the 2000P prints. It is just a
bit too strong for my own tastes but I think that many people will not
notice it at all or will find it acceptable. The tone in tungsten light is
rather nice. I assume that it would be possible to adjust the color balance
or use a custom profile to get a neutral tone for a particular light source.

The tonality of the 2200 prints is very smooth. Carl's prints were from a
Canon D-30 and that clean, grainless quality is very well produced. This
looks to be a very good print engine and I look forward to when it is
possible to use it with third party inks. Is it a better than the 1280? Hard
to say without being able to print the same image on both. When my 1280 is
running well, which is most of the time, I would say they appear to be
comparable.

For myself I will stick with Selenium PT, MIS-VM or WN-PT because I prefer
the hue of those inks, they exhibit more chromatic complexity than the 2200
prints and the life of the 2200 prints is not acceptable to me. I would like
to have a 2200 for color work, but for B&W I would still recommend a 1280
and a grayscale ink for desktop printing.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "lawrencetrek" <ltitle@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:24 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Comparison of PiezoTones vs. Epson 2200


> Is there anyone out there with significant experience with the PiezoTone
inks
> and who also has tried printing B/W output from the Epson 2200 who can
> critically compare these two.  There are conflicting reports:  some are
ready to
> pack up Piezography, while others are saying the 2200 still can't compete
for
> B/W output (e.g. continued problems with color casts and metamerism).  I
am
> especially interested in anyone who has custom printer profiles for their
2200
> or who has access to the Gray Balancer software.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Martin,

As far as life of the MIS-VM prints are concerned I only see 49 years on the
MIS web site. And isn't Ultrachrome rated on watercolor paper rated at
90-100? What am I missing here?

Luke

>
> For myself I will stick with Selenium PT, MIS-VM or WN-PT because I prefer
> the hue of those inks, they exhibit more chromatic complexity than the
2200
> prints and the life of the 2200 prints is not acceptable to me. I would
like

> to have a 2200 for color work, but for B&W I would still recommend a 1280
> and a grayscale ink for desktop printing.
>
> Martin Wesley

On 8/16/02 4:47 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> For myself I will stick with Selenium PT, MIS-VM or WN-PT because I prefer
> the hue of those inks, they exhibit more chromatic complexity than the 2200
> prints and the life of the 2200 prints is not acceptable to me. I would like
> to have a 2200 for color work, but for B&W I would still recommend a 1280
> and a grayscale ink for desktop printing.

Exactly...chromatic complexity...that's exactly the right way to describe
the Piezotones...particular the Selenium vs. either the old quad inks or the
Ultrachrome output.

Robert

Luke,

The 49-year figure was from 1999 RIT testing on MIS color pigment 
inks and the 49-year point was for the yellow ink, which was the 
weakest. The black in that ink set was still going strong at that 
point. I would guess that at that point in time the black ink was 
perhaps similar to the black in the MIS Original Quads, which is more 
prone to fading than the current MIS grayscale inks.

If you extrapolate the black ink from that trial onwards towards the 
65% fail point you should hit a couple of hundred years.

Unfortunately there is not a lot of good data on all the different 
inks and I don't believe that the data is very meaningful in terms of 
real time but only useful in comparing one ink to another but this is 
only valid if the testing was the same. Comparing RIT years to 
Wilhelm years is probably useless.

In John Paul Caponigro review of the 2200, 7600 and 9600 he gave the 
following Wilhelm "longevity ratings" for the UltraChrome inks:

Premium Glossy Photo Paper - 90+ years
Somerset Velvet for Epson - 80+ years
Premium Luster Photo Paper - 50+ years
Premium Semimatte Photo Paper - 40+ years
Enhanced Matte Paper - 30+ years

So you can see that paper choice plays a major part in in all of this.

I have sent the step wedges to Paul Roark to stick in his fade tester 
with some MIS and Piezo wedges so hopefully we will get some real 
comparative performance info in a few weeks.

Bottom line the 2200 inks appear to be a hybrid of pigments and dyes 
where the grayscale inks MIS and Piezo are hybrids of carbon and 
small amounts of colored pigment. We do know for certain that 
pigments outlast dyes so I think I am safe in going with these inks 
for the long haul. I, unfortunately, will not be around to know for 
sure.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Luke Granfield" 
<luke@l...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> As far as life of the MIS-VM prints are concerned I only see 49 
years on the
> MIS web site. And isn't Ultrachrome rated on watercolor paper rated 
at
> 90-100? What am I missing here?
> 
> Luke
> 
> >
> > For myself I will stick with Selenium PT, MIS-VM or WN-PT because 
I prefer
> > the hue of those inks, they exhibit more chromatic complexity 
than the
> 2200
> > prints and the life of the 2200 prints is not acceptable to me. I 
would
> like
> > to have a 2200 for color work, but for B&W I would still 
recommend a 1280

> > and a grayscale ink for desktop printing.
> >
> > Martin Wesley