Digital BW, The Print

Jani, I've been using the gen 4 enhanced black since it came out. It is
the blackest black out there. But I don't know if it is compatible with
the new piezotone inks.  It was compatible with the first piezo inks though.

Have you ever did a dip and dunk test with strips of printing papers
about 1 inch by 5 inches? Dip 'em in each different black ink bottle,
and when they dry, see which is the very blackest. Of all the tests I've
done, Enhanced is the blackest. (Except for the epson black ink, which
is all dye.) The enhanced is very close to the epson oem black. If you
do this test, let us know how the piezotone inks compare with the
enhanced generations. I haven't tried the piezotones yet.

Jerry

janishilesh wrote:

> 
> Martin,
> 
> As you and I discussed on the phone a few days back, I am interested
> in the deeper blacks of the new PT inks. I do not have at hand, but I
> do have MediaStreet Generations Black (MS-GK). These inks also
> supposedely have dye content in it to give the deeper black. I used
> this ink with FS-N (vacuum filled virgin carts, not CIS). The prints
> were very, very nice once I created a new curves adjustment layer.
> However, within a few prints, one a 12 x 18 print, the color cart
> started to leak like crazy (!). I dont know why, but it certainly
> made a mess of my b/w 1280.
> 
> Not wanting to give up completely, I played around the kitchen sink
> with FS-NK and the MS-GK. It is incredible how these inks are
> different. I took two very white porcelin cups filled with water, and
> put a drop of each of these inks in them each. Even the first
> interaction with water is very different. But the most obvious
> difference is that FS-NK is very neutral, and single hued. The MS-GK,
> on the otherhand, separates out into a dye (very purple/red/magenta)
> content and more or less masks any native pigment color. So is the PT-
> K the same as MS-GK? And was my cartridge dripping caused by
> incompatibilities between FS-N and MS-GK when on the parking pad? Or
> was it just a bad fill job?
> 
> Best.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@p...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 10:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone Selenium 300 Hr Fade test
> >
> >
> > > On 9/1/02 9:35 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As you and I have discussed off list, there may be issues of
> activation
> > > > energies in the warm/fade reactions. You have broader
> experience in the
> > > > coatings industry than I have, what do you think the basic
> reaction is
> > in
> > > > the warm/fade? A simple oxidation of the pigments accelerated
> by photo
> > > > energy or something else?
> > >
> > > I'm most certain that it is the "dyestuff" that they are adding
> that's
> > > burning off.  This looks like what happens to the 25% dye in the
> Gen4 (Gen
> > > Enhanced) black.  I was hoping for better technology than
> this...but I
> > agree
> > > it is disappointing.  The problem at this point is that we really
> do need
> > a
> > > failure point.  If Paul's 300hr equals 100 Wilhelm years we may
> not have a
> > > problem...but if it doesn't...what does it equal?
> >
> > Exactly. Paul has some 2200 wedges to test against a couple of the
> quad
> > sets. This will give us a data point compared to an ink with
> some "Wilhelm
> > years" attached to it but even then I am uncomfortable in drawing
> real life
> > conclusions since Wilhelm and his customers are not showing
> us "before" and
> > "after" images of the aged prints or test targets or data. I think
> that MIS
> > was the only exception in their sharing of their RIT data.
> > >
> > > > At a guess the Xenon is more broad spectrum than Paul's
> fluorescent
> > tubes.
> > > > Given the same flux I would expect the higher UV content source
> to be
> > more
> > > > damaging.
> > >
> > > Hard to say...my guess is that Paul's fader errs on the side of
> having too
> > > much heat build up...this could greatly accelerate oxidation.  The
> > > commercial fade-o-meters carefully manage heat through the use of
> constant
> > > rotation and cooling fans.
> >
> > Good point. The heat factor could make Paul's test a much more
> brutal one
> > which would speak highly of the inks that faired well but would not
> > necessarily reflect so badly on those that did not.
> > >
> > > I guess the appropriate issue to resurrect is what was the most
> fade
> > > resistant black again?  MIS FS...or was it MIS VM...and what
> exactly is
> > the
> > > difference?
> >
> > I believe the FS and VM black are the same at this point and only
> the MIS
> > original quads K is different.
> >
> > >  It would be easy to sub that black into a set of the Selenium
> > > Piezotones and give up dmax...but get the fade resistance and
> color of the
> > > rest of the Piezotones...remember Cone simply uses the same black
> across
> > all
> > > the sets...so it shouldn't matter whose you use.
> >
> > The problem is that the FS/VM black is very neutral and the PT
> black is red
> > warm so if you made that substitution you would have the best of
> both worlds
> > as far as warm/fade but I suspect you would have an ink set closer
> to
> > FS-Neutral than Selenium PT in hue. I have both on hand and some
> empty carts
> > for the 1280 so I should give it a try. I mixed some PT and VM
> blacks
> > together tonight to see if there are any obvious adverse reactions
> since Jon
> > was explicit about purging between original Piezo and PiezoTone.
> Even though
> > the inks would be in separate chambers and nozzles Tyler pointed
> out to me
> > that he had lost a head due to parking pad contamination between
> > incompatible inks a few years ago. In smelling the two inks the VM
> k has
> > that familiar heavy molecular weight alcohol or perhaps a glycol
> smell while
> > the PT k smells more like IPA or ethanol. Miss having a lab handy!
> >
> > >  I know when I have talked
> > > to Bill and Jon about this they have mentioned that they have
> considered
> > > offering an all pigment black for those who are really set on
> having the
> > > best longevity.
> >
> > Well I think that they really ought to do that. They would really
> only need
> > to offer it in bottles as I think most of the heavy users are
> working with
> > CIS or hand filling. This then raises the problems of the software.
> We
> > already have reports of poor profile matches with some printer/paper
> > combinations with the Selenium PT and changing the black would add
> to the
> > problems. Obviously from the way Jon is burning his bridges with
> Sundance on
> > his list I don't expect any new profiles for the Piezo driver and
> the
> > PiezoTones. ImagePrint is not a solution for the desktop unless
> they want to
> > greatly increase the number of profiles, supported printers and
> slash the
> > price.
> >
> > I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the
> benefit
> > of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the
> R9 plugin
> > as well as the Sundance inks. I think that from a software point of
> view
> > Sundance may be in a position to respond more quickly than anyone
> else. I
> > certainly would be willing to pay for an upgrade or a whole new
> version that
> > had 40 paper profiles for 6 different inks and 7 desktop printers.
> >
> > We seem to be in a bit of a new ink/software gap.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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----- Original Message -----

From: "janishilesh" <shilesh.jani@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 7:18 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone Selenium 300
Hr Fade test


> Martin,
>
> As you and I discussed on the phone a few days back, I am interested
> in the deeper blacks of the new PT inks. I do not have at hand, but I
> do have MediaStreet Generations Black (MS-GK). These inks also
> supposedely have dye content in it to give the deeper black. I used
> this ink with FS-N (vacuum filled virgin carts, not CIS). The prints
> were very, very nice once I created a new curves adjustment layer.
> However, within a few prints, one a 12 x 18 print, the color cart
> started to leak like crazy (!). I dont know why, but it certainly
> made a mess of my b/w 1280.
>
> Not wanting to give up completely, I played around the kitchen sink
> with FS-NK and the MS-GK. It is incredible how these inks are
> different. I took two very white porcelin cups filled with water, and
> put a drop of each of these inks in them each. Even the first
> interaction with water is very different. But the most obvious
> difference is that FS-NK is very neutral, and single hued. The MS-GK,
> on the otherhand, separates out into a dye (very purple/red/magenta)
> content and more or less masks any native pigment color. So is the PT-
> K the same as MS-GK? And was my cartridge dripping caused by
> incompatibilities between FS-N and MS-GK when on the parking pad? Or
> was it just a bad fill job?

Shilesh,

I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not the same
ink. What you describe in your dilution test is exactly what I saw in the
sink after cleaned up the syringes I used to take samples from the MIS-VM K
and PT-K bottles. The VM-K is obviously a very neutral black but the PT-K
broke up into a warm/purple just as you describe.

Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible blacks in
folder:

Files > Ink Sets > MIS

and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-FS-K-100 hr
fade test.jpg ,
in folder:

Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS

Is Generations making the PT inks for Jon?

The leaking cartridge would probably be something else. Perhaps a vacuum
leak in the cart? If the inks reacted badly together I would expect a
clogging rather than a leak but I believe they are compatible.

Martin Wesley

On 9/2/02 11:23 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not the same
> ink. What you describe in your dilution test is exactly what I saw in the
> sink after cleaned up the syringes I used to take samples from the MIS-VM K
> and PT-K bottles. The VM-K is obviously a very neutral black but the PT-K
> broke up into a warm/purple just as you describe.

They aren't the same, but may be based on similar technology.  Bill Bergh
mentioned to me the other day that the Gen-K is blacker (and more fugative).

Robert

Martin,

Thank you. In your observation, did the color position inks of the PT-
NW and PT-S also show this color break-up when you cleaned the 
syringes?

Best.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "janishilesh" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 7:18 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone 
Selenium 300
> Hr Fade test
> 
> 
> > Martin,
> >
> > As you and I discussed on the phone a few days back, I am 
interested
> > in the deeper blacks of the new PT inks. I do not have at hand, 
but I
> > do have MediaStreet Generations Black (MS-GK). These inks also
> > supposedely have dye content in it to give the deeper black. I 
used
> > this ink with FS-N (vacuum filled virgin carts, not CIS). The 
prints
> > were very, very nice once I created a new curves adjustment layer.
> > However, within a few prints, one a 12 x 18 print, the color cart
> > started to leak like crazy (!). I dont know why, but it certainly
> > made a mess of my b/w 1280.
> >
> > Not wanting to give up completely, I played around the kitchen 
sink
> > with FS-NK and the MS-GK. It is incredible how these inks are
> > different. I took two very white porcelin cups filled with water, 
and
> > put a drop of each of these inks in them each. Even the first
> > interaction with water is very different. But the most obvious
> > difference is that FS-NK is very neutral, and single hued. The MS-
GK,
> > on the otherhand, separates out into a dye (very 
purple/red/magenta)
> > content and more or less masks any native pigment color. So is 
the PT-
> > K the same as MS-GK? And was my cartridge dripping caused by
> > incompatibilities between FS-N and MS-GK when on the parking pad? 
Or
> > was it just a bad fill job?
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not 
the same
> ink. What you describe in your dilution test is exactly what I saw 
in the
> sink after cleaned up the syringes I used to take samples from the 
MIS-VM K
> and PT-K bottles. The VM-K is obviously a very neutral black but 
the PT-K
> broke up into a warm/purple just as you describe.
> 
> Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible blacks 
in
> folder:
> 
> Files > Ink Sets > MIS
> 
> and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-FS-K-
100 hr
> fade test.jpg ,
> in folder:
> 
> Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS
> 
> Is Generations making the PT inks for Jon?
> 
> The leaking cartridge would probably be something else. Perhaps a 
vacuum
> leak in the cart? If the inks reacted badly together I would expect 
a

> clogging rather than a leak but I believe they are compatible.
> 
> Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "shileshcjani" <shilesh.jani@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone Selenium
300 Hr Fade test


> Martin,
>
> Thank you. In your observation, did the color position inks of the PT-
> NW and PT-S also show this color break-up when you cleaned the
> syringes?

Shilesh,

I don't remember seeing anything but it has been awhile. Both the NW and S
gray inks were so rock solid in Paul's fade test they would seem to be the
ones to go with.

Martin


>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "janishilesh" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 7:18 AM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone
> Selenium 300
> > Hr Fade test
> >
> >
> > > Martin,
> > >
> > > As you and I discussed on the phone a few days back, I am
> interested
> > > in the deeper blacks of the new PT inks. I do not have at hand,
> but I
> > > do have MediaStreet Generations Black (MS-GK). These inks also
> > > supposedely have dye content in it to give the deeper black. I
> used
> > > this ink with FS-N (vacuum filled virgin carts, not CIS). The
> prints
> > > were very, very nice once I created a new curves adjustment layer.
> > > However, within a few prints, one a 12 x 18 print, the color cart
> > > started to leak like crazy (!). I dont know why, but it certainly
> > > made a mess of my b/w 1280.
> > >
> > > Not wanting to give up completely, I played around the kitchen
> sink
> > > with FS-NK and the MS-GK. It is incredible how these inks are
> > > different. I took two very white porcelin cups filled with water,
> and
> > > put a drop of each of these inks in them each. Even the first
> > > interaction with water is very different. But the most obvious
> > > difference is that FS-NK is very neutral, and single hued. The MS-
> GK,
> > > on the otherhand, separates out into a dye (very
> purple/red/magenta)
> > > content and more or less masks any native pigment color. So is
> the PT-
> > > K the same as MS-GK? And was my cartridge dripping caused by
> > > incompatibilities between FS-N and MS-GK when on the parking pad?
> Or
> > > was it just a bad fill job?
> >
> > Shilesh,
> >
> > I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not
> the same
> > ink. What you describe in your dilution test is exactly what I saw
> in the
> > sink after cleaned up the syringes I used to take samples from the
> MIS-VM K
> > and PT-K bottles. The VM-K is obviously a very neutral black but
> the PT-K
> > broke up into a warm/purple just as you describe.
> >
> > Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible blacks
> in
> > folder:
> >
> > Files > Ink Sets > MIS
> >
> > and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-FS-K-
> 100 hr
> > fade test.jpg ,
> > in folder:
> >
> > Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS
> >
> > Is Generations making the PT inks for Jon?
> >
> > The leaking cartridge would probably be something else. Perhaps a
> vacuum
> > leak in the cart? If the inks reacted badly together I would expect
> a
> > clogging rather than a leak but I believe they are compatible.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin,

The reason I asked was: Is the "S" eggplant look in PT-S coming from 
the black ink, or the dark gray? So if there are colorants in the 
color ink positions, they must be pigment, rather than dye.

Best

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "shileshcjani" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone 
Selenium
> 300 Hr Fade test
> 
> 
> > Martin,
> >
> > Thank you. In your observation, did the color position inks of 
the PT-
> > NW and PT-S also show this color break-up when you cleaned the
> > syringes?
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> I don't remember seeing anything but it has been awhile. Both the 
NW and S
> gray inks were so rock solid in Paul's fade test they would seem to 
be the
> ones to go with.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "janishilesh" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 7:18 AM
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone
> > Selenium 300
> > > Hr Fade test
> > >
> > >
> > > > Martin,
> > > >
> > > > As you and I discussed on the phone a few days back, I am
> > interested
> > > > in the deeper blacks of the new PT inks. I do not have at 
hand,
> > but I
> > > > do have MediaStreet Generations Black (MS-GK). These inks also
> > > > supposedely have dye content in it to give the deeper black. I
> > used
> > > > this ink with FS-N (vacuum filled virgin carts, not CIS). The
> > prints
> > > > were very, very nice once I created a new curves adjustment 
layer.
> > > > However, within a few prints, one a 12 x 18 print, the color 
cart
> > > > started to leak like crazy (!). I dont know why, but it 
certainly
> > > > made a mess of my b/w 1280.
> > > >
> > > > Not wanting to give up completely, I played around the kitchen
> > sink
> > > > with FS-NK and the MS-GK. It is incredible how these inks are
> > > > different. I took two very white porcelin cups filled with 
water,
> > and
> > > > put a drop of each of these inks in them each. Even the first
> > > > interaction with water is very different. But the most obvious
> > > > difference is that FS-NK is very neutral, and single hued. 
The MS-
> > GK,
> > > > on the otherhand, separates out into a dye (very
> > purple/red/magenta)
> > > > content and more or less masks any native pigment color. So is
> > the PT-
> > > > K the same as MS-GK? And was my cartridge dripping caused by
> > > > incompatibilities between FS-N and MS-GK when on the parking 
pad?
> > Or
> > > > was it just a bad fill job?
> > >
> > > Shilesh,
> > >
> > > I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are 
not
> > the same
> > > ink. What you describe in your dilution test is exactly what I 
saw
> > in the
> > > sink after cleaned up the syringes I used to take samples from 
the
> > MIS-VM K
> > > and PT-K bottles. The VM-K is obviously a very neutral black but
> > the PT-K
> > > broke up into a warm/purple just as you describe.
> > >
> > > Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible 
blacks
> > in
> > > folder:
> > >
> > > Files > Ink Sets > MIS
> > >
> > > and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-
FS-K-
> > 100 hr
> > > fade test.jpg ,
> > > in folder:
> > >
> > > Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS
> > >
> > > Is Generations making the PT inks for Jon?
> > >
> > > The leaking cartridge would probably be something else. Perhaps 
a
> > vacuum
> > > leak in the cart? If the inks reacted badly together I would 
expect
> > a
> > > clogging rather than a leak but I believe they are compatible.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Martin,

You wrote:

>I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not the same
>ink. ...

>Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible blacks in
>folder:

>Files > Ink Sets > MIS

>and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-FS-K-100
>hr fade test.jpg , in folder:

>Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS

>...

Although comparing test strips from different runs of the fader increases
the chances of other, random factors influencing the results, the two tests
you noted above suggest to me that PT-K and Gen-K are not the same.  The Gen
K seemed to perform much better.

Note also that the control test strips (both K-only on EAM) are much
different.  The Gen-K has a visual density of 1.82, while the PT-K has a
visual density of 1.74.  The Gen-K also is 0.02 units cool at the 100% spot,
whereas the PT-K is 0.03 units warm.  Note that the cool black of the Gen-K
would make it a better fit for the "selenium" tone due to this cool black.
(This is on EAM.  Results on PhotoRag may be different.)

Gen. Enhanced K is the one I recommend to others who want a deeper black.

I do think the inks are similar in that they appear to be hybrid pigment-dye
inks.  That alone might make the separations you've seen in water appear
similar.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Thank you for the clarification. Your measurements are easier for me 
to grasp than the posted images. I am especially encouraged by the 
visual density differences between PT-K and Gen-K. I, for one, am not 
overly concerned about "archival". I would, however, like the prints 
to last as long as my attention-span;-). In all seriousness though, I 
don't sell, and dont't intend to try selling. So if the prints remain 
rock solid for 10 years with intermittent display on my moderately 
lit wall, I will be perfectly happy.

Still, I am curious where the "eggplant" and "chromatic complexity" 
of the PT-S inkset is coming from. I am so cheap, I think I can 
duplicate it with MIS FS inks. I will ofcourse spend more time/money 
duplicating something with only moderate sucess than if I had just 
forked over my money to Inkjetmall! But then I may learn something 
new, and hey that is worth it all!

Best Wishes.

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not 
the same
> >ink. ...
> 
> >Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible blacks 
in
> >folder:
> 
> >Files > Ink Sets > MIS
> 
> >and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-FS-K-
100
> >hr fade test.jpg , in folder:
> 
> >Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS
> 
> >...
> 
> Although comparing test strips from different runs of the fader 
increases
> the chances of other, random factors influencing the results, the 
two tests
> you noted above suggest to me that PT-K and Gen-K are not the 
same.  The Gen
> K seemed to perform much better.
> 
> Note also that the control test strips (both K-only on EAM) are much
> different.  The Gen-K has a visual density of 1.82, while the PT-K 
has a
> visual density of 1.74.  The Gen-K also is 0.02 units cool at the 
100% spot,
> whereas the PT-K is 0.03 units warm.  Note that the cool black of 
the Gen-K
> would make it a better fit for the "selenium" tone due to this cool 
black.
> (This is on EAM.  Results on PhotoRag may be different.)
> 
> Gen. Enhanced K is the one I recommend to others who want a deeper 
black.
> 
> I do think the inks are similar in that they appear to be hybrid 
pigment-dye
> inks.  That alone might make the separations you've seen in water 
appear

> similar.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "shileshcjani" <shilesh.jani@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone Selenium
300 Hr Fade test


> Martin,
>
> The reason I asked was: Is the "S" eggplant look in PT-S coming from
> the black ink, or the dark gray? So if there are colorants in the
> color ink positions, they must be pigment, rather than dye.
>
Shilesh,

In the Selenium-PT ink set the black is red/warm and the grays are blue/cool
so the transition tones tend toward a magenta or eggplant cast. From Paul's
test the grays held up so well I would have to say that the colorant there
is a pigment. On the black I have to wonder. Jon Cone has described the
additive to increase the Dmax as "dye stuff" although I believe is actually
a pigment but it is fading as if it were a dye. Whatever it is, it is dying
in Paul's fader in a fashion similar to Gen. black.

Martin

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "shileshcjani" <shilesh.jani@s...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone
> Selenium
> > 300 Hr Fade test
> >
> >
> > > Martin,
> > >
> > > Thank you. In your observation, did the color position inks of
> the PT-
> > > NW and PT-S also show this color break-up when you cleaned the
> > > syringes?
> >
> > Shilesh,
> >
> > I don't remember seeing anything but it has been awhile. Both the
> NW and S
> > gray inks were so rock solid in Paul's fade test they would seem to
> be the
> > ones to go with.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
(snip earlier)

>In the Selenium-PT ink set the black is red/warm and the grays are
blue/cool
>so the transition tones tend toward a magenta or eggplant cast. From Paul's
>test the grays held up so well I would have to say that the colorant there
>is a pigment. On the black I have to wonder. Jon Cone has described the
>additive to increase the Dmax as "dye stuff" although I believe is actually
>a pigment but it is fading as if it were a dye. Whatever it is, it is dying
>in Paul's fader in a fashion similar to Gen. black.

>Martin

BTW, I'm getting ready to try the PT black with MIS FS-N inks (CMY) in my
1160.  Word from InkjetMall (Chris Cook) is that all versions of Piezotones
(WN, Sel, & pending CN) use the same black.  Thinking now that maybe the Gen
K is a better match . . . ?

			William

>[snip]
>Shilesh,
>
>I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not the same
>ink. What you describe in your dilution test is exactly what I saw in the
>sink after cleaned up the syringes I used to take samples from the MIS-VM K
>and PT-K bottles. The VM-K is obviously a very neutral black but the PT-K
>broke up into a warm/purple just as you describe.
>
>Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible blacks in
>folder:
>
>Files > Ink Sets > MIS
>
>and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-FS-K-100 hr
>fade test.jpg ,
>in folder:
>
>Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS
>
>Is Generations making the PT inks for Jon?
>
>[snip]
>
>Martin Wesley


I don't think MediaStreet makes any inks at all, not even its own 
Generations. But Nation-Wide Plastics Company, Inc., from which Norm 
Levy "acquired" (not sure what exactly that means) MediaStreet, might 
be supplying both Jon with inks to call "Piezo" and Norm with inks to 
call "Generations". And without Nation-Wide Plastics, necessarily, 
making either one of them. But someone somewhere must actually be 
adding that dyestuff to our pigments ... .

I blame Jerry Olson for all this. He's the one who starting insisting 
on a black Black, way back when Lyson was king and before Robert 
Morrison started embarrassing everyone by measuring their dMax. 8)

Sam McCandless             samcc@...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone Selenium
300 Hr Fade test


> Martin,
>
> You wrote:
>
> >I really am beginning to wonder if the PT-K and the Gen-K are not the
same
> >ink. ...
>
> >Also check out Paul's fade testing of the Gen and Indelible blacks in
> >folder:
>
> >Files > Ink Sets > MIS
>
> >and then take a look at his fade test of the PT-K, PzoTone-VM-FS-K-100
> >hr fade test.jpg , in folder:
>
> >Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs MIS-FS
>
> >...
>
> Although comparing test strips from different runs of the fader increases
> the chances of other, random factors influencing the results, the two
tests
> you noted above suggest to me that PT-K and Gen-K are not the same.  The
Gen
> K seemed to perform much better.
>
> Note also that the control test strips (both K-only on EAM) are much
> different.  The Gen-K has a visual density of 1.82, while the PT-K has a
> visual density of 1.74.  The Gen-K also is 0.02 units cool at the 100%
spot,
> whereas the PT-K is 0.03 units warm.  Note that the cool black of the
Gen-K
> would make it a better fit for the "selenium" tone due to this cool black.
> (This is on EAM.  Results on PhotoRag may be different.)
>
> Gen. Enhanced K is the one I recommend to others who want a deeper black.
>
> I do think the inks are similar in that they appear to be hybrid
pigment-dye
> inks.  That alone might make the separations you've seen in water appear
> similar.
>
Paul,

Thanks for the info on the inks and the Gen-K performance. Could the Dmax
difference is a driver issue? We know the Piezo plug-in always seems to give
up 0.1 in density.

My problem is that I like the warmth of the black in the ink but I guess
that I could duplicate that by adding a touch of M and Y pigment ink to the
Gen-K or VM-K with out getting into the tricky density issues associated
with tinting the gray inks.

Where does the MIS Double Density Black fall in comparison to the Gen, VM
and PT blacks?

I looking at the VM-K and ST-PT-K there are no visual clues but as soon as
you start to rinse the ST-PT-K the water goes red/purple in the dilute areas
which would seem to indicate that the warm component is a separate
component, possibly a water soluble dye or possibly a pigment but that water
dilution causes separate from the dispersion due to particle size or surface
tension differences.

I tried a drop on a piece paper towel and on EAM test. There is no
separation at the edges of the drop like we saw with the original Piezo so
that would seem to indicate that it is not a dye or that it is tightly held.
I also tried putting a single drop of ST-K into an ounce of MIS Clear Base
and let it slowly disperse a bit. It showed no sign of separating and after
mixing produced a very, very light gray when swabbed on paper with no
separation. The ST-K is visible warm to my eye at full strength and diluted
once it is on paper.

Does that give you enough info as to chemical compatibility between the PT
and VM inks? The small 50/50 mixture I made last night seems fine today.
Hasn't turned into super glue or anything odd. Hard to say with out real
data but the viscosity and surface tension seem unchanged.

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From: "Garcia, William" <wpg1@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Media Street Black + FS-N was PiezoTone Selenium
300 Hr Fade test


>
>
> >In the Selenium-PT ink set the black is red/warm and the grays are
> blue/cool
> >so the transition tones tend toward a magenta or eggplant cast. From
Paul's
> >test the grays held up so well I would have to say that the colorant
there
> >is a pigment. On the black I have to wonder. Jon Cone has described the
> >additive to increase the Dmax as "dye stuff" although I believe is
actually
> >a pigment but it is fading as if it were a dye. Whatever it is, it is
dying
> >in Paul's fader in a fashion similar to Gen. black.
>
> >Martin
>
> BTW, I'm getting ready to try the PT black with MIS FS-N inks (CMY) in my
> 1160.  Word from InkjetMall (Chris Cook) is that all versions of
Piezotones
> (WN, Sel, & pending CN) use the same black.  Thinking now that maybe the
Gen
> K is a better match . . . ?
>
William,

Considering that the PT gray inks held up better than the FS-N gray inks in
Paul's last tests and the PT black did much worse than the FS-N black, you
would seem to be headed in the wrong direction. The Gen K sounds like a
better choice for the substitution in the FS-N set.

Martin

Martin,

>...
>> The Gen-K has a visual density of 1.82, while the PT-K has a
>> visual density of 1.74.

>... Could the Dmax
>difference is a driver issue? We know the Piezo plug-in always seems to
give
>up 0.1 in density.

The test strips were "black ink only" Epson driver prints.  So, the
differences are not accounted for by driver differences.

>...
>I also tried putting a single drop of ST-K into an ounce of MIS Clear Base
>and let it slowly disperse a bit. It showed no sign of separating and after
>mixing produced a very, very light gray when swabbed on paper with no
>separation.  ...

>Does that give you enough info as to chemical compatibility between the PT
>and VM inks? The small 50/50 mixture I made last night seems fine today.
>...

It sounds like there would probably be no problem in using the VM/FS-K with
the PT midtones -- at least from a chemical compatibility perspective.  I
think that the densities of the inks may make the ramp less linear.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com