Digital BW, The Print

John,

You wrote:

>Am I correct in assuming that, so far, the most reliable inkset prone
>to the least amount of problems and the least amount of fading and
>warming is the MIS FSN set. I'm speaking of single tone ink sets and
>not VM or The New Epson Inks.

I'll let others answer this question to avoid the appearance of bias -- but
the answer is "yes."  ;-)

Seriously, there are a number of fine inksets out there, but when it comes
to pigmented quads, MIS and Piezo seem to be the main choices.

MIS has a number of inksets (too many in their view) that have been used
successfully for some time.

The new PiezoTone midtones show great promise, although the selenium version
seems to have a problem with at least some 1280 carts.  I don't know if that
problem has been fixed yet.  And, the PiezoTone black is ... well, a mistake
in my view.

> By the way, are the VM and VM Sepia sets
>reliable as well. ...

Both inksets are equally "reliable" in the sense that they are made from
inks that have been used reliably for a long time -- predominantly the MIS
archival and quad pigments, and the MIS VM/FS black.

The standard VM inkset uses traditional pigment mixes that do warm with
light exposure.  After they initially warm they stabilize. Also, the
cooler-curve versions appear to warm less.

The VM-S inkset uses the non-warming FS-N base inks.  As such, it is quite
stable, especially on EAM/EEM, when printed with the "neutral" curve.  When
toner is added to make it sepia, it will warm some, but it starts out warm
in such mode, so it's not a significant problem.

The main problem people have with the vm inksets is if their printer is not
supported by Photoshop adjustment curves that are appropriate or work well.
Some printers are too far off the norm for the pre-made curves to work well.
Additionally, some papers require a different profile, and tweaking the
curves for different paper profiles or for fitting the curves to the
individual printer is left up to the users.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Ink choices


> Am I correct in assuming that, so far, the most reliable inkset prone
> to the least amount of problems and the least amount of fading and
> warming is the MIS FSN set. I'm speaking of single tone ink sets and
> not VM or The New Epson Inks. By the way,are the VM and VM Sepia sets
> reliable as well. Does anyone know if ImagePrint 5.0 truely supports
> VM.
>
John,

At this point, until more info comes in on the 2200, the front runner would
be a hybrid set of the MIS FSN black, the most warm/fade resistant black
ink, and the Selenium or Warm-Neutral PiezoTone gray inks, which gave the
most warm/fade resistant mid tones. The Sepia-VM set is on a par with the
FSN since the black and grays are the same. I believe the standard VM still
uses some of the MIS original quad grays.

Martin Wesley

>Martin wrote-



>At this point, until more info comes in on the 2200, the front runner would
>be a hybrid set of the MIS FSN black, the most warm/fade resistant black
>ink, and the Selenium or Warm-Neutral PiezoTone gray inks, which gave the
>most warm/fade resistant mid tones.

The very mixed reports on the PiezoTone inks are of great concern.

I am about to set up a CIS with the MIS FSN-K and PiezoTone CMY on an 
1160. I also have some regular FS-K--is that the same formulation as 
the black ink in FSN? I'm thinking of swapping out the PiezoTone Warm 
Neutral black for the regular FS black on another 1160 that already 
has the PT inks installed. Can I just replace the bottles and let the 
change happen over time, or do I need a new cart and flushing of the 
tubing?

Paul? Martin?

Bruce

-- 
Bruce C. Kinch
Associate Professor of Photography
The Art Institute of Boston at Lesley University

Bruce,

FS-K and FSN-K are the same.

I would buy a new cart when you change inks in a CIS.

Paul
_____________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bruce Kinch [mailto:pvx@...]
  Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 11:11 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ink choices


  >Martin wrote-



  >At this point, until more info comes in on the 2200, the front runner
would
  >be a hybrid set of the MIS FSN black, the most warm/fade resistant black
  >ink, and the Selenium or Warm-Neutral PiezoTone gray inks, which gave the
  >most warm/fade resistant mid tones.

  The very mixed reports on the PiezoTone inks are of great concern.

  I am about to set up a CIS with the MIS FSN-K and PiezoTone CMY on an
  1160. I also have some regular FS-K--is that the same formulation as
  the black ink in FSN? I'm thinking of swapping out the PiezoTone Warm
  Neutral black for the regular FS black on another 1160 that already
  has the PT inks installed. Can I just replace the bottles and let the
  change happen over time, or do I need a new cart and flushing of the
  tubing?

  Paul? Martin?

  Bruce

  --
  Bruce C. Kinch
  Associate Professor of Photography
  The Art Institute of Boston at Lesley University

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >At this point, until more info comes in on the 2200, the front runner
would
> >be a hybrid set of the MIS FSN black, the most warm/fade resistant black
> >ink, and the Selenium or Warm-Neutral PiezoTone gray inks, which gave the
> >most warm/fade resistant mid tones.
>
> The very mixed reports on the PiezoTone inks are of great concern.

Bruce,

Indeed they are but at this time the problem seems to be limited to the
black ink and certain batches of 1280 carts.
>
> I am about to set up a CIS with the MIS FSN-K and PiezoTone CMY on an
> 1160. I also have some regular FS-K--is that the same formulation as
> the black ink in FSN? I'm thinking of swapping out the PiezoTone Warm
> Neutral black for the regular FS black on another 1160 that already
> has the PT inks installed. Can I just replace the bottles and let the
> change happen over time, or do I need a new cart and flushing of the
> tubing?
>
> Paul? Martin?
>
With a CIS I would always replace the cartridge protion of the CIS and flush
the line when changing to a different ink. There are enough difficulties
without dealing with  blends of ink in your system. Keep in mind that the
MIS-FS standard and FS neutral blacks are the same.

Martin

I have to agree with Martin and Paul about getting new carts for 
your CIS when switching inks. Alas, I did it the cheap way -- just 
swapping from PiezoTone WN to MIS FSN in my 1280. I ran a bunch of 
purge patterns on 11X17 cheapo paper until the tone color 
stabilized. The problem? Where I rarely had to run cleaning cycles 
before the swap, I now need to run one or two cycles at startup each 
day. I don't think this can be attributed to the MIS inks, either. I 
use the FSN inks in a 2000P and I haven't had to run cleaning cycles 
in weeks. Fortunately, after the 1280 heads are cleaned there seems 
to be no additional problems with output. However, I'm always 
worrying and wondering. I think new carts would alleviate much of 
the worry.
BJ
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > >At this point, until more info comes in on the 2200, the front 
runner
> would
> > >be a hybrid set of the MIS FSN black, the most warm/fade 
resistant black
> > >ink, and the Selenium or Warm-Neutral PiezoTone gray inks, 
which gave the
> > >most warm/fade resistant mid tones.
> >
> > The very mixed reports on the PiezoTone inks are of great 
concern.
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> Indeed they are but at this time the problem seems to be limited 
to the
> black ink and certain batches of 1280 carts.
> >
> > I am about to set up a CIS with the MIS FSN-K and PiezoTone CMY 
on an
> > 1160. I also have some regular FS-K--is that the same 
formulation as
> > the black ink in FSN? I'm thinking of swapping out the PiezoTone 
Warm
> > Neutral black for the regular FS black on another 1160 that 
already
> > has the PT inks installed. Can I just replace the bottles and 
let the
> > change happen over time, or do I need a new cart and flushing of 
the
> > tubing?
> >
> > Paul? Martin?
> >
> With a CIS I would always replace the cartridge protion of the CIS 
and flush
> the line when changing to a different ink. There are enough 
difficulties
> without dealing with  blends of ink in your system. Keep in mind 
that the

> MIS-FS standard and FS neutral blacks are the same.
> 
> Martin