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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-03 by Julian Thomas

Val don't forget that Martin was one of the first to note the problems and
Martin uses the Piezo pluggin - always be wary of what a manufacturer tells
you

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Val Brunell" <vbrunell1@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...


> I appreciate Jon's in depth response to the issues that have been
> raging here.  I have used the PT Sel inks with the PiezoBW plugin and
> CIS on a 1280 with good results for about six weeks.
>
> A key point from Jon's message is that the PT inks have been
> developed specifically for the PiezoBW driver.  While it is important
> for current digital BW printing practioner's to expirement, slamming
> a product that it being used outside its recommended workflows,
> software, etc., is not really fair. The key is:  Does it work when
> used as recommended?  While the new PT inks don't satisfy everyone
> and may have some issues, IMO they are moving the art of digital BW
> printing forward and we would not have come this far without Cone's
> contributions.
>
> Val Brunell
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Thomas Fors" <tom@f...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jon Cone" <piezobw@c...>
> > To: <piezography3000@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:52 AM
> > Subject: [piezoBW] New Piezography Products
> >
> >
> > > Piezography News
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-03 by Lawrence Smith

On 10/3/02 9:51 AM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:

> Val don't forget that Martin was one of the first to note the problems and
> Martin uses the Piezo pluggin - always be wary of what a manufacturer tells
> you
> 
> Julian

It's interesting to me that there is no mention in the message about the
'approved' workflow/software for the new inks.  I've asked Jon to address it
on the piezo list.  Frankly, they sell IP5 but it's not clear if that was an
'approved' way to use the old blacks nor is it mentioned for the new ones.
I find it interesting that Jon is targeting workflows as a potential issue
but not providing any guidance.

Lawrence

----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

[Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-03 by Val Brunell

Julian...You are right about that!  And there are some things about 
piezoBW software and inks that may be less than advertised.  But I'm 
a pretty satisfied user and think Cone gets a lot of undeserved flak.

Val Brunell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Val don't forget that Martin was one of the first to note the 
problems and
> Martin uses the Piezo pluggin - always be wary of what a 
manufacturer tells
> you
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Val Brunell" <vbrunell1@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:37 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...
> 
> 
> > I appreciate Jon's in depth response to the issues that have been
> > raging here.  I have used the PT Sel inks with the PiezoBW plugin 
and
> > CIS on a 1280 with good results for about six weeks.
> >
> > A key point from Jon's message is that the PT inks have been
> > developed specifically for the PiezoBW driver.  While it is 
important
> > for current digital BW printing practioner's to expirement, 
slamming
> > a product that it being used outside its recommended workflows,
> > software, etc., is not really fair. The key is:  Does it work when
> > used as recommended?  While the new PT inks don't satisfy everyone
> > and may have some issues, IMO they are moving the art of digital 
BW
> > printing forward and we would not have come this far without 
Cone's
> > contributions.
> >
> > Val Brunell
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Thomas Fors" <tom@f...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jon Cone" <piezobw@c...>
> > > To: <piezography3000@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:52 AM
> > > Subject: [piezoBW] New Piezography Products
> > >
> > >
> > > > Piezography News
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
> >
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-03 by Julian Thomas

A lot of smoke gets blown - and a lot of the time IJM is its own worst enemy
by advertising claims and how it has dealt with problems in the past - I'm
not into Cone bashing , but sometimes talking about 'workflows' as a problem
when this has been noticed with the original pluggin, piezopro and IP5 is a
little 'smokey' IMO

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Val Brunell" <vbrunell1@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:01 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...


> Julian...You are right about that!  And there are some things about
> piezoBW software and inks that may be less than advertised.  But I'm
> a pretty satisfied user and think Cone gets a lot of undeserved flak.
>
> Val Brunell
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Val don't forget that Martin was one of the first to note the
> problems and
> > Martin uses the Piezo pluggin - always be wary of what a
> manufacturer tells
> > you
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Val Brunell" <vbrunell1@c...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:37 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...
> >
> >
> > > I appreciate Jon's in depth response to the issues that have been
> > > raging here.  I have used the PT Sel inks with the PiezoBW plugin
> and
> > > CIS on a 1280 with good results for about six weeks.
> > >
> > > A key point from Jon's message is that the PT inks have been
> > > developed specifically for the PiezoBW driver.  While it is
> important
> > > for current digital BW printing practioner's to expirement,
> slamming
> > > a product that it being used outside its recommended workflows,
> > > software, etc., is not really fair. The key is:  Does it work when
> > > used as recommended?  While the new PT inks don't satisfy everyone
> > > and may have some issues, IMO they are moving the art of digital
> BW
> > > printing forward and we would not have come this far without
> Cone's
> > > contributions.
> > >
> > > Val Brunell
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Thomas Fors" <tom@f...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jon Cone" <piezobw@c...>
> > > > To: <piezography3000@y...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:52 AM
> > > > Subject: [piezoBW] New Piezography Products
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Piezography News
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-04 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...


> Val don't forget that Martin was one of the first to note the problems and
> Martin uses the Piezo pluggin - always be wary of what a manufacturer
tells
> you
>
Julian,

Paul deserves the credit for noticing it first. I just went into wishful
thinking mode and hoped it would be okay. Initially it didn't look too bad
with the Warm-Neutral set but really noticeable with the Selenium grays.

Even if one driver uses less of the black ink than another, sooner or later
it is going to be a problem. I stuck a test wedge printed with the Piezo
driver up in a west window and after 8 days I could see the color shift in
the black in the 85 to 100% range. I will let it go awhile longer and then
send it off to inkjetmall.

There was also a report of the warm/fade in samples sent out by inkjetmall.
That is posted in the Files section under Inksets>PiezoTone. Of course we
don't know if this was printed with the Piezo driver or IP5.

I agree with Val that overall ConeTech has advanced grayscale inks and
printing. But as you posted they are their own worst enemy. By using wildly
optimistic ad copy they set themselves up for getting bashed if something
goes wrong. Personally I don't have super high product expectations out here
on the bleeding edge but if you make big time promises you are asking for
trouble, when in the general consumer marketplace product quality is very
high. They off-set this to some extent with great tech support and customer
service. They are the only company that has ever FedEx'ed me a replacement
cartridge with overnight Saturday delivery.

As you also noted their past history in acknowledging problems has not been
good. They have done much better in their handling of the PiezoTone 1280
cartridge problems but the response on the PT black issue is somewhat remini
scent of how they responded to the clog and green issues. They do at least
have an alternative product in the works so that is a plus and will
hopefully put a quick end to the problem. It is possible that the black
issue is batch related and not universal, but more investigation would seem
to be in order. I suspect that this has caught them by surprise and that the
failure is induced by high UV, high temperatures or a combination of the two
that was not present in their initial testing.

Overall I think they get bashed way too hard many times but they certainly
are not without fault either.

Martin Wesley

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Val Brunell" <vbrunell1@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:37 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...
>
>
> > I appreciate Jon's in depth response to the issues that have been
> > raging here.  I have used the PT Sel inks with the PiezoBW plugin and
> > CIS on a 1280 with good results for about six weeks.
> >
> > A key point from Jon's message is that the PT inks have been
> > developed specifically for the PiezoBW driver.  While it is important
> > for current digital BW printing practioner's to expirement, slamming
> > a product that it being used outside its recommended workflows,
> > software, etc., is not really fair. The key is:  Does it work when
> > used as recommended?  While the new PT inks don't satisfy everyone
> > and may have some issues, IMO they are moving the art of digital BW
> > printing forward and we would not have come this far without Cone's
> > contributions.
> >
> > Val Brunell
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Thomas Fors" <tom@f...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jon Cone" <piezobw@c...>
> > > To: <piezography3000@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:52 AM
> > > Subject: [piezoBW] New Piezography Products
> > >
> > >
> > > > Piezography News
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-04 by Julian Thomas

>
> Overall I think they get bashed way too hard many times but they certainly
> are not without fault either.
>
 I agree with you Martin. IJM push the boundaries and make everyone else
catch up. Portfolio black sounds good to me. Now if they only sold it in
pint bottles for about 50-60usd... maybe I'll wait for the MIS version - BTW
struggling with my printers I did some tests with raised bottles - came back
to find the bottles half empty - my first thought was 'thank god that wasn't
piezo!'

Julian

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-04 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...


>
> >
> > Overall I think they get bashed way too hard many times but they
certainly
> > are not without fault either.
> >
>  I agree with you Martin. IJM push the boundaries and make everyone else
> catch up. Portfolio black sounds good to me. Now if they only sold it in
> pint bottles for about 50-60usd... maybe I'll wait for the MIS version -
BTW
> struggling with my printers I did some tests with raised bottles - came
back
> to find the bottles half empty - my first thought was 'thank god that
wasn't
> piezo!'
>
Julian,

Their prices are high but they are down about 30% over this time last year.
Nothing like some competition. I get hungry enough for a certain look that I
am willing to pay a premium to get it. Besides I find I am spending much
more on Photo Rag than on ink. Since you are closer to the manufacturer do
you make out better on that end? Rock bottom prince here for 13"x19" sheets
of 308 gsm is just under $4.00.

You aren't the first to try raising the bottles with the same results. Ouch!
I assume all that ink wound up in the bottom of your printer. If you look at
the lowest ink level in the cartridge portion of the CIS it is actually
below the top of the ink bottles. I seem to recall that someone induced a
siphoning action just be getting the ink level in the bottles too high.

Martin Wesley

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...

2002-10-04 by Julian Thomas

raising the bottles some helps but i just over did it and then went to bed!
the cheapest I can get PR for is here www.silverprint.co.uk

J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Jon Cone on New Blacks...
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Overall I think they get bashed way too hard many times but they
> certainly
> > > are not without fault either.
> > >
> >  I agree with you Martin. IJM push the boundaries and make everyone else
> > catch up. Portfolio black sounds good to me. Now if they only sold it in
> > pint bottles for about 50-60usd... maybe I'll wait for the MIS version -
> BTW
> > struggling with my printers I did some tests with raised bottles - came
> back
> > to find the bottles half empty - my first thought was 'thank god that
> wasn't
> > piezo!'
> >
> Julian,
>
> Their prices are high but they are down about 30% over this time last
year.
> Nothing like some competition. I get hungry enough for a certain look that
I
> am willing to pay a premium to get it. Besides I find I am spending much
> more on Photo Rag than on ink. Since you are closer to the manufacturer do
> you make out better on that end? Rock bottom prince here for 13"x19"
sheets
> of 308 gsm is just under $4.00.
>
> You aren't the first to try raising the bottles with the same results.
Ouch!
> I assume all that ink wound up in the bottom of your printer. If you look
at
> the lowest ink level in the cartridge portion of the CIS it is actually
> below the top of the ink bottles. I seem to recall that someone induced a
> siphoning action just be getting the ink level in the bottles too high.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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