Digital BW, The Print

Just a quick entry to update you on the results of a 6 week fade test using
a variety of alternative coatings on piezoBW prints.

Although I can't release the specific formulations that I am using I wanted
to share some general principles that should apply to the testing that
others on the list are doing.

I prepared 21-step wedge prints on Eclipse Velvet (350gm) and Orwell
(310gm).  These papers were chosen because they are much easier to coat than
lighter weight papers.  The prints were prepared using a 1160 with CIS.
Based on extensive pretesting (more than 50 different coatings combinations
on a dozen different papers) I selected several coating systems for testing.
All of these systems involve applying one to two coats of a seal coat
followed by from one to three coats of a top coat.  The seal coat is used to
thoroughly wet out the pigment and paper and seal it so that the top coat
sits on top and maximizes the gloss (dmax) increase.  All coatings were
applied with a good quality Oil painting varnish brush.  Coating
approximately 30 letter sized sheets of prints was done in an evening
(intermittent activity over 4 hours)...this included all coats.  Spirit
based prints take several days to dry while water based prints are dry the
next morning.  Fades were conducted in an unobstructed south facing bay
window in Southern California.

Here are the basic conclusions:

1. 6 week fading can be reduced by at least 50% by sealing and top coating
prints.

2. More is not better.  A single seal coat (on Eclipse) and two seal coats
(on Orwell) followed by a single top coat showed just as much improvement as
the seal coat followed by 3 top coats.

3.  Spirit top coats did not produce better fade results than water-based
top coats.

4. Although all of my systems contained at least one product with
UV-inhibitors, more layers of UV-inhibitors did not produce better fade
results.

5.  There were not differences in fade between Orwell and Eclipse prints in
both the uncoated and coated conditions.

6.  While most inkjet papers can be coated (as long as the final prints are
waterproof), heavier papers are much easier to coat than lighter papers.
Less absorbent papers like Eclipse are easier to coat than more absorbent
papers like Orwell.

7.  Some papers benefit more from coatings than others and the profile of
coated papers can differ from uncoated papers.  In general Eclipse prints
looked better coated while Orwell prints looked better uncoated.  This may
correlate with initial Dmax--however, this is a complex issue and is open to
investigation.

8.  Tack is an important issue.  While all faded prints were thoroughly dry
after six weeks in the sun, some prints that were stored in the dark in an
envelope were still tacky.  This is a critical formulation issue and there
were coatings that gave satisfactory results.  It may be a good idea to
briefly dry prints that are coated with a heat gun or at least leave them on
a drying rack for several days before they are stacked.

Hope that helps,

Robert


----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Just a quick entry to update you on the results of a 6 week fade 
test using
> a variety of alternative coatings on piezoBW prints.

I have experimenting with Oleopasto oil medium, on Epson 
Smooth Fine Art. It's a Windsor&Newton product; very very thick; 
like petroleum jelly in a big toothpaste tube. It's easy to work with, 
but like Martin has mentioned, you need to work with a 
high-quality brush to minimize losing hairs from the brush. It 
adds a nice depth to the blacks on that watercolor paper, but it 
tends to be reduced when it dries. I was looking for something 
like a "glaze" on top of the print, for protection, but more for the 
look of a glaze. I would apply a glob of medium and then then 
sorta move it around and create a texture by quickly dabbing the 
end of a 2"-3" brush into the medium while it's on the surface of 
the print. I have found, though, that it tends to yellow pretty 
quickly, say, after a month in storage. But for some images, that 
might not be so bad.

I found this WindsorNewton information page about mediums 
and glazes. This might be helpful to others who want to learn 
about it. There's also a link from that page to many others. (You 
might have to cut-and-paste the URL; it's long).

http://www.winsornewton.com/Main/Sitesections/EncycloSctn/Pr
oductInfo/OilsMediumTbl.html

Also a link for Oleopasto:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/artcity-com/wan-30xx993.html

-Mark Tucker

Robert,

Thank you for the fade test results. I will throw some comments and 
questions into your message below.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Just a quick entry to update you on the results of a 6 week fade 
test using
> a variety of alternative coatings on piezoBW prints.
> 
> Although I can't release the specific formulations that I am using 
I wanted
> to share some general principles that should apply to the testing 
that
> others on the list are doing.
> 
> I prepared 21-step wedge prints on Eclipse Velvet (350gm) and Orwell
> (310gm).  These papers were chosen because they are much easier to 
coat than
> lighter weight papers.  The prints were prepared using a 1160 with 
CIS.
> Based on extensive pretesting (more than 50 different coatings 
combinations
> on a dozen different papers) I selected several coating systems for 
testing.
> All of these systems involve applying one to two coats of a seal 
coat
> followed by from one to three coats of a top coat.  The seal coat 
is used to
> thoroughly wet out the pigment and paper and seal it so that the 
top coat
> sits on top and maximizes the gloss (dmax) increase.  All coatings 
were
> applied with a good quality Oil painting varnish brush.  Coating
> approximately 30 letter sized sheets of prints was done in an 
evening
> (intermittent activity over 4 hours)...this included all coats.  
Spirit
> based prints take several days to dry while water based prints are 
dry the
> next morning.  Fades were conducted in an unobstructed south facing 
bay
> window in Southern California.

A mechanical question for you. Did you use a drying rack for the 
prints after you coated them? Finding a space to spread out 30 sheets 
would be an obstacle for most. How did you hold the paper down while 
you coated it or did you just manually hold it in place? Did you coat 
the entire sheet edge to edge or just the image area?

I have found it desirable to leave the prints flat for a while after 
each coat to eliminate the chance of runs or sags in the event I 
missed any excess build up.

> 
> Here are the basic conclusions:
> 
> 1. 6 week fading can be reduced by at least 50% by sealing and top 
coating
> prints.

Did the prints fade evenly across the tonal range? Or did the high 
lights fade more quickly than mid-tones?

Did you observe any color shift in the inks or the paper base? Since 
the Eclipse Velvet and Orwell both appear to have brighteners (the 
Eclipse appears to have quite a bit) did you note any yellowing of 
the base? Was there any degradation in the brighteners' ability to 
fluoresce? Did it vary between the coated and uncoated prints?

What about yellowing of the coatings? I know that there is some 
initial yellowing of the prints by the coatings, some coatings more 
than others, did this stay constant during the fade test?

> 
> 2. More is not better.  A single seal coat (on Eclipse) and two 
seal coats
> (on Orwell) followed by a single top coat showed just as much 
improvement as
> the seal coat followed by 3 top coats.

That is very interesting and good news at the same time. Some of the 
combinations I tried did not benefit in appearance from multiple 
coats.
> 
> 3.  Spirit top coats did not produce better fade results than water-
based
> top coats.

Also good news as the solvent based varnishes are much more difficult 
and unpleasant to work with.

> 
> 4. Although all of my systems contained at least one product with
> UV-inhibitors, more layers of UV-inhibitors did not produce better 
fade
> results.

Did your coatings cover a range of different UV-inhibitors? Did some 
inhibitors out perform others?

> 
> 5.  There were not differences in fade between Orwell and Eclipse 
prints in
> both the uncoated and coated conditions.

Can you quantify how much fade you did see?

> 
> 6.  While most inkjet papers can be coated (as long as the final 
prints are
> waterproof), heavier papers are much easier to coat than lighter 
papers.
> Less absorbent papers like Eclipse are easier to coat than more 
absorbent
> papers like Orwell.

Heavier and a medium smooth texture. I found Museo to be the champ 
for taking a nice coating and not overly revealing brush strokes. I 
managed to coat some EAM but it was difficult. Have you tried coating 
any dry mounted prints?

> 
> 7.  Some papers benefit more from coatings than others and the 
profile of
> coated papers can differ from uncoated papers.  In general Eclipse 
prints
> looked better coated while Orwell prints looked better uncoated.  
This may
> correlate with initial Dmax--however, this is a complex issue and 
is open to
> investigation.

My attempts to print with Piezo on the Eclipse Satine and Velvet were 
very poor with extremely weak and veiled blacks. Coating some of 
these same prints utterly changed them from unacceptable to very 
good. The MIS inks seem to be much better suited to these papers.
> 
> 8.  Tack is an important issue.  While all faded prints were 
thoroughly dry
> after six weeks in the sun, some prints that were stored in the 
dark in an
> envelope were still tacky.  This is a critical formulation issue 
and there
> were coatings that gave satisfactory results.  It may be a good 
idea to
> briefly dry prints that are coated with a heat gun or at least 
leave them on
> a drying rack for several days before they are stacked.

Oops. There's the answer to my drying rack questions. Any 
recommendations as to make, model and source? I would guess that the 
tacky prints were the Golden acrylics. The polyurethane and vinyl 
coatings I tried did not seem to have this problem. I did notice that 
all of the coated prints seem to be retaining the odor of the coating 
for a very long time.

I am concerned that Golden's approach of making an easily removed 
painting varnish is not applicable to coating paper prints, and may 
have properties that are undesirable for this application. Since it 
seems unlikely that the varnish could safely be removed from a paper 
print, taking a more permanent approach would suggest that the 
aliphatic polyurethanes would offer much greater strength and 
mechanical protection over the acrylics. I also found the Varathane 
Diamond product much easier and cheaper to work with.

Thanks,

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
There's the answer to my drying rack questions. Any 
> recommendations as to make, model and source?


Martin,

This shows what a total geek I am. Solid proof. I had the same 
issues as I assume you do: where do you put all these prints 
when they're wet, especially when each one of them is 24x30? I 
went down to my local restaurant supply house, bought a baker's 
rack, and the cut it in half and added angle iron to double the size 
of it. Then cut birch plywood shelves for each level. It holds about 
twelve 24x30 prints. It's absolutely saved me from having prints 
lying all over the office. Total cost: about $250.

http://marktucker.com/epson/rack.html

-MT

On 9/7/01 11:52 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

Arrowed lines are from Martin Wesley...my responses follow.

> A mechanical question for you. Did you use a drying rack for the
> prints after you coated them? Finding a space to spread out 30 sheets
> would be an obstacle for most.

I left them flat. Drying racks would be ok for a final overnight cure, but I
would leave them flat while you are coating.

> How did you hold the paper down while
> you coated it or did you just manually hold it in place? Did you coat
> the entire sheet edge to edge or just the image area?

I tried a variety of things but found that simply laying the sheet on a
paper towel.  Taping edges made curling worse.  The key to good coating is
using heavy paper (300+ grams) however, some papers (e.g., XGS) do curl less
than others (e.g., Museo).
 
> I have found it desirable to leave the prints flat for a while after
> each coat to eliminate the chance of runs or sags in the event I
> missed any excess build up.

yes

> Did the prints fade evenly across the tonal range? Or did the high
> lights fade more quickly than mid-tones?

Too difficult to tell because of measurement error...but it appears that
they faded evenly.

> Did you observe any color shift in the inks or the paper base? Since
> the Eclipse Velvet and Orwell both appear to have brighteners (the
> Eclipse appears to have quite a bit) did you note any yellowing of
> the base? Was there any degradation in the brighteners' ability to
> fluoresce? Did it vary between the coated and uncoated prints?

Yes there was mild yellowing of the paper stock.  This was the same coated
vs. uncoated.

> What about yellowing of the coatings? I know that there is some
> initial yellowing of the prints by the coatings, some coatings more
> than others, did this stay constant during the fade test?
> 
None of my coatings yellowed.

> Did your coatings cover a range of different UV-inhibitors?

Yes the extent that manufacturer's reveal their ingredients

> Did some 
> inhibitors out perform others?

No, this leads me to believe that the inhibitor is not as important as
simply coating the pigment and sealing it from air.

>> 
>> 5.  There were not differences in fade between Orwell and Eclipse
> prints in
>> both the uncoated and coated conditions.
> 
> Can you quantify how much fade you did see?

5% reduction in 100% black Dmax coated, 10% reduction in 100% black Dmax
uncoated.  Remember that the actual effect is greater because these are log
scales.

> Heavier and a medium smooth texture. I found Museo to be the champ
> for taking a nice coating and not overly revealing brush strokes. I
> managed to coat some EAM but it was difficult. Have you tried coating
> any dry mounted prints?
> 
Interesting, in my tests, Museo was one of the most difficult papers to coat
because of curling.  I didn't have problems with brush strokes with any of
my coatings on any of the papers (good brush).  No experiments with dry
mounting.

> My attempts to print with Piezo on the Eclipse Satine and Velvet were
> very poor with extremely weak and veiled blacks. Coating some of
> these same prints utterly changed them from unacceptable to very
> good. The MIS inks seem to be much better suited to these papers.

Ditto. Photoinkjet.com is currently investigating improving blacks in these
papers for PiezoBW, but it is hard to say whether this will be good or bad
for coated prints.  Have you tried coating MIS prints on Eclipse?  I have
coated color prints from an Epson 10000 with jaw dropping results...so my
guess is that if the MIS inks are water resistant when printed they will
give great results as well.

> Oops. There's the answer to my drying rack questions. Any
> recommendations as to make, model and source?

Nope.  I simple lay them out and keep the dogs away from them.  My problem
was I was rushed when leaving for the UK and put them in an envelope to give
to Antonis the morning after they were coated...don't do this...its dumb.
> 
> I am concerned that Golden's approach of making an easily removed
> painting varnish is not applicable to coating paper prints, and may
> have properties that are undesirable for this application. Since it
> seems unlikely that the varnish could safely be removed from a paper
> print, taking a more permanent approach would suggest that the
> aliphatic polyurethanes would offer much greater strength and
> mechanical protection over the acrylics. I also found the Varathane
> Diamond product much easier and cheaper to work with.

Polyurethanes are notorious for having major fading problems...no one in the
industry would suggest using one for any application on a white substrate
(there even warnings on the cans).  Acrylics are much better from this
perspective.  Remember there are 100's of acrylics out there ranging from
low molecular weight solution polymers to very high molecular weight
emulsion polymers  with vastly different properties.  This complexity is one
reason that I decided to attempt to commercialize a product.  It simply was
taking too much time and money in development...although more power to you.

Robert


----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Geeks rule.

If you can use a mig welder in your project then you know you've arrived!

Funny, my wife seems to have habituated to having every surface in the
entire 3 bedroom house covered with wet photos...but I can see that 24x30's
would become a problem in a hurry.

Robert

On 9/7/01 12:42 PM, "Mark Tucker" <mark@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> There's the answer to my drying rack questions. Any
>> recommendations as to make, model and source?
> 
> 
> Martin,
> 
> This shows what a total geek I am. Solid proof. I had the same
> issues as I assume you do: where do you put all these prints
> when they're wet, especially when each one of them is 24x30? I
> went down to my local restaurant supply house, bought a baker's
> rack, and the cut it in half and added angle iron to double the size
> of it. Then cut birch plywood shelves for each level. It holds about
> twelve 24x30 prints. It's absolutely saved me from having prints
> lying all over the office. Total cost: about $250.
> 
> http://marktucker.com/epson/rack.html
> 
> -MT
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

For those less adventurous than Mark, a variety of purpose-built drying
racks can be found here:

http://www.dickblick.com/itemgroups-d/dryingracks/

Not too expensive either.

-Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 3:42 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Alternative Coatings-Fade Testing


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
There's the answer to my drying rack questions. Any
> recommendations as to make, model and source?


Martin,

This shows what a total geek I am. Solid proof. I had the same
issues as I assume you do: where do you put all these prints
when they're wet, especially when each one of them is 24x30? I
went down to my local restaurant supply house, bought a baker's
rack, and the cut it in half and added angle iron to double the size
of it. Then cut birch plywood shelves for each level. It holds about
twelve 24x30 prints. It's absolutely saved me from having prints
lying all over the office. Total cost: about $250.

http://marktucker.com/epson/rack.html

-MT

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 9/7/01 11:52 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> Arrowed lines are from Martin Wesley...my responses follow.
> 
> > A mechanical question for you. Did you use a drying rack for the
> > prints after you coated them? Finding a space to spread out 30 
sheets
> > would be an obstacle for most.
> 
> I left them flat. Drying racks would be ok for a final overnight 
cure, but I
> would leave them flat while you are coating.

Robert,

I have been looking for a good reason to add onto the house. Not 
quite what the wife had in mind though. 
> 
> > How did you hold the paper down while
> > you coated it or did you just manually hold it in place? Did you 
coat
> > the entire sheet edge to edge or just the image area?
> 
> I tried a variety of things but found that simply laying the sheet 
on a
> paper towel.  Taping edges made curling worse.  The key to good 
coating is
> using heavy paper (300+ grams) however, some papers (e.g., XGS) do 
curl less
> than others (e.g., Museo).

I taped all of mine down on cardboard and the ones that initially 
curled like EAM pretty much flattened back out as they dried. You 
probably used the 250 gsm Museo like I did. The 365 gsm would be a 
better choice for coating. I do agree that the heavier papers are the 
way to go if you plan to varnish.

The tape was a problem. I tried several kinds but they all pulled the 
top layer off the paper where they were attached at the corners.
 
>  
> > I have found it desirable to leave the prints flat for a while 
after
> > each coat to eliminate the chance of runs or sags in the event I
> > missed any excess build up.
> 
> yes

You can get a drying rack with 30 flat shelves from Dick Blick for 
$109 and let the dogs have the couch back. 
> 
(snip)

> > Did you observe any color shift in the inks or the paper base? 
Since
> > the Eclipse Velvet and Orwell both appear to have brighteners (the
> > Eclipse appears to have quite a bit) did you note any yellowing of
> > the base? Was there any degradation in the brighteners' ability to
> > fluoresce? Did it vary between the coated and uncoated prints?
> 
> Yes there was mild yellowing of the paper stock.  This was the same 
coated
> vs. uncoated.

Was the yellowing a noticeable tint or just the papers returning to a 
more natural white as the brighteners were exhausted?
> 
> > What about yellowing of the coatings? I know that there is some
> > initial yellowing of the prints by the coatings, some coatings 
more
> > than others, did this stay constant during the fade test?
> > 
> None of my coatings yellowed.

That is good to hear since any coating is going to complicate the 
whole archival question just by adding another unknown. I have signed 
up for a workshop at Stanford to spend a Saturday afternoon looking 
at and handling prints from their photography collection going back 
to the 1850's. I certainly plan to keep my eye out for any varnished 
prints and how they have faired.  
> 
(snip)

> > Did some inhibitors out perform others?
> 
> No, this leads me to believe that the inhibitor is not as important 
as
> simply coating the pigment and sealing it from air.

I think that this makes sense if the fading is a result of oxidation 
of the pigment particle surface. UV may not be as significant a 
player in this reaction (other than as a source of activation energy) 
in comparison to a good oxygen supply.

Some people have reported dark storage color shifts with Piezo that 
were decreased by using one of the aerosol sprays. Did you notice any 
difference between your coated and uncoated control samples in this 
regard?

> >> 
> >> 5.  There were not differences in fade between Orwell and Eclipse
> > prints in
> >> both the uncoated and coated conditions.
> > 
> > Can you quantify how much fade you did see?
> 
> 5% reduction in 100% black Dmax coated, 10% reduction in 100% black 
Dmax
> uncoated.  Remember that the actual effect is greater because these 
are log
> scales.

It is also significant that the coated prints are starting from a 
higher Dmax and can afford to give some up while the uncoated prints 
need to hang on to all they can. In addition, the higher the Dmax, 
the less sensitive the eye is to the change. A shift up from 2.2 to 
2.1 is not nearly as noticeable or objectionable as a shift from 1.6 
to 1.5

Can you share any of the Dmax data with us? Having varnished some 
prints, I have seen that the effect is huge but I have no 
quantitative values.

> > Heavier and a medium smooth texture. I found Museo to be the champ
> > for taking a nice coating and not overly revealing brush strokes. 
I
> > managed to coat some EAM but it was difficult. Have you tried 
coating
> > any dry mounted prints?
> > 
> Interesting, in my tests, Museo was one of the most difficult 
papers to coat
> because of curling.  I didn't have problems with brush strokes with 
any of
> my coatings on any of the papers (good brush).  No experiments with 
dry
> mounting.

You must have a good hand with a brush. Everyone who has tried this 
and reported on it, has complained about brush strokes and dust. I 
used a very pricey DaVinci varnish brush, and while that is the right 
choice, it didn't entirely solve the problem. The more I varnish, the 
better I get, but with the smooth papers like EAM and LPM there are 
generally some sign of brush strokes or unevenness. There seems to be 
a point where the paper has just enough texture to minimize the brush 
strokes but not so much it looks strange when coated.

> 
> > My attempts to print with Piezo on the Eclipse Satine and Velvet 
were
> > very poor with extremely weak and veiled blacks. Coating some of
> > these same prints utterly changed them from unacceptable to very
> > good. The MIS inks seem to be much better suited to these papers.
> 
> Ditto. Photoinkjet.com is currently investigating improving blacks 
in these
> papers for PiezoBW, but it is hard to say whether this will be good 
or bad
> for coated prints.  Have you tried coating MIS prints on Eclipse?  
I have
> coated color prints from an Epson 10000 with jaw dropping 
results...so my
> guess is that if the MIS inks are water resistant when printed they 
will
> give great results as well.

I have used the MIS VM ink set in an Epson 1280 to print on the 
Eclipse Satine and the results are some of the most pleasing I have 
seen so far. It is really an excellent match of paper and ink. I am a 
bit concerned about the long-term life of the brighteners in the 
paper though. I have an uncoated print cooking on the rear deck of my 
car to see how it holds up. Your results are reassuring.

I had terrible results on a 1270 with Epson color inks on the Satine 
and Velvet. The prints were very weak. If Brightcube fixes the paper 
for Piezo inks, I hope they don't alter its current excellent level 
of performance with the MIS inks. In working with the two inks, there 
are some papers where they print very differently from each other and 
other papers where they are quite similar.

Jerry Olson reported excellent results with the Satine and the MIS 
color inks by the way.

(snip)

> 
> Polyurethanes are notorious for having major fading problems...no 
one in the
> industry would suggest using one for any application on a white 
substrate
> (there even warnings on the cans).  

Well that is true for the aromatic polyurethanes but the new water 
based aliphatic are considered to be non-yellowing. Golden mentions 
polyurethanes as providing some of the toughest and impermeable 
membranes but because they are not removable, they do not recommend 
them for conservation considerations but do recommend them for art 
that will receive rough handling (and floors of course).
 
http://www.goldenpaints.com/varnapp.htm under Types of Varnish.

In any case, I think most of the modern polymer varnishes should out 
perform the old dammar and mastic types.

> Acrylics are much better from this
> perspective.  Remember there are 100's of acrylics out there 
ranging from
> low molecular weight solution polymers to very high molecular weight
> emulsion polymers  with vastly different properties.

I think you could say the same for most of the polymers.

> This complexity is one
> reason that I decided to attempt to commercialize a product.  It 
simply was
> taking too much time and money in development...although more power 
to you.

I agree, the ideal path is to go to a paint or varnish company, 
explain the application and have a coating custom designed with all 
the assistance of their R&D personnel and labs.

When do you expect to have your coating on the market? I look forward 
to giving it a try.

Martin  

> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@p...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066

> I taped all of mine down on cardboard and the ones that initially
> curled like EAM pretty much flattened back out as they dried. You
> probably used the 250 gsm Museo like I did. The 365 gsm would be a
> better choice for coating. I do agree that the heavier papers are the
> way to go if you plan to varnish.


Didn't know about the Museo 365...that would definitely be a contender...but
probably $$$?

> The tape was a problem. I tried several kinds but they all pulled the
> top layer off the paper where they were attached at the corners.
> 

I'm definitely against taping from my experience.

> Was the yellowing a noticeable tint or just the papers returning to a
> more natural white as the brighteners were exhausted?

Usually the paper is not white to begin with...that's why they use optical
brighteners.  From my take the faded color was nice...but not if you are
trying to get bluish prints.  Personally I like a BW print on the brown side
and so the more yellowed paper is not a problem.

> I think that this makes sense if the fading is a result of oxidation
> of the pigment particle surface. UV may not be as significant a
> player in this reaction (other than as a source of activation energy)
> in comparison to a good oxygen supply.
> 
> Some people have reported dark storage color shifts with Piezo that
> were decreased by using one of the aerosol sprays. Did you notice any
> difference between your coated and uncoated control samples in this
> regard?

No

> It is also significant that the coated prints are starting from a
> higher Dmax and can afford to give some up while the uncoated prints
> need to hang on to all they can. In addition, the higher the Dmax,
> the less sensitive the eye is to the change. A shift up from 2.2 to
> 2.1 is not nearly as noticeable or objectionable as a shift from 1.6
> to 1.5
> 
> Can you share any of the Dmax data with us? Having varnished some
> prints, I have seen that the effect is huge but I have no
> quantitative values.

Starting coated Dmaxs range from the low 1.9's (Eclipse) to nearly 2.2
(Concord Rag).  Honestly, I can't say that this difference compels me to
prefer one paper over the other.  In contrast, a .14 difference, say between
Eclipse uncoated (1.5) and Concord (1.64) makes a world of difference in the
uncoated realm.

> You must have a good hand with a brush. Everyone who has tried this
> and reported on it, has complained about brush strokes and dust. I
> used a very pricey DaVinci varnish brush, and while that is the right
> choice, it didn't entirely solve the problem. The more I varnish, the
> better I get, but with the smooth papers like EAM and LPM there are
> generally some sign of brush strokes or unevenness. There seems to be
> a point where the paper has just enough texture to minimize the brush
> strokes but not so much it looks strange when coated.

I'm also using a DaVinci varnish brush.  I was a painter, so I now how to
use one, but more likely the difference is in the reahology of our coatings.
Try thinning your best coating out with a little distilled water...this
should take care of the brush strokes.  I've worked very hard to find a good
sealant.  You may notice from my original post that I'm using a two part
system.  This is because I really want to wet out the pigment and paper and
seal first...then the top coat is easier to apply.

> I have used the MIS VM ink set in an Epson 1280 to print on the
> Eclipse Satine and the results are some of the most pleasing I have
> seen so far. It is really an excellent match of paper and ink. I am a
> bit concerned about the long-term life of the brighteners in the
> paper though. I have an uncoated print cooking on the rear deck of my
> car to see how it holds up. Your results are reassuring.

The paper will yellow.

> I had terrible results on a 1270 with Epson color inks on the Satine
> and Velvet. The prints were very weak. If Brightcube fixes the paper
> for Piezo inks, I hope they don't alter its current excellent level
> of performance with the MIS inks. In working with the two inks, there
> are some papers where they print very differently from each other and
> other papers where they are quite similar.

I have several 1270's and I find the inks a nightmare.  I have a 1270 print
on concord rag that was made in April that is nearly invisible now from
daylight.  These inks seem to be VERY paper sensitive.

> Jerry Olson reported excellent results with the Satine and the MIS
> color inks by the way.

Great

> Well that is true for the aromatic polyurethanes but the new water
> based aliphatic are considered to be non-yellowing. Golden mentions
> polyurethanes as providing some of the toughest and impermeable
> membranes but because they are not removable, they do not recommend
> them for conservation considerations but do recommend them for art
> that will receive rough handling (and floors of course).

All polyurethanes are light sensitive...that's why the waterbased products
frequently contain UV inhibitors...its not to protect the wood...its to
protect the coating.  I would still trust an acrylic any day for what we
want the coating to do...that is unless you intend to walk on your
photos...then I'd definitely go with a polyurethane.  In our tests, the
polyurethane that we used gave the poorest Dmax and the worse fade inspite
of the presence of UV inhibitors...it is not, however, Varathene...which is
what you are using...I believe.

> In any case, I think most of the modern polymer varnishes should out
> perform the old dammar and mastic types.

I'd hope so.

>> Acrylics are much better from this
>> perspective.  Remember there are 100's of acrylics out there
> ranging from
>> low molecular weight solution polymers to very high molecular weight
>> emulsion polymers  with vastly different properties.
> 
> I think you could say the same for most of the polymers.

Yes, but acrylics (and polyvinyl acetate) are probably 80% of the coatings
market.  Polyurethane come in many fewer flavors and are usually targeted at
high wear markets (industrial coatings, floor coatings, furniture coatings).
 
> I agree, the ideal path is to go to a paint or varnish company,
> explain the application and have a coating custom designed with all
> the assistance of their R&D personnel and labs.

Well, I used to work for coatings company and that Isn't necessarily the
ideal thing to do...but a little bit of understanding of what the different
polymers do, does help.

> When do you expect to have your coating on the market? I look forward
> to giving it a try.

We will hopefully be beta testing in the next month or two.

Robert

Has anyone seen icc profiles for Brightcube Eclipse Satine Paper,
Specifically for the 1280?

Thanks,

D. Blake Scruggs - 281/568.0072
B Works Production Group
Image Enhancement Restoration Service
www.bwprog.com
Mailto:blake@...
'Photos wanted, dead or alive'

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:

(snip)> 
> 
> Didn't know about the Museo 365...that would definitely be a 
contender...but
> probably $$$?

Premium prices but high quality. I really do like the Museo coated 
better than anything else so far.

> 
(snip)
> 
> I'm definitely against taping from my experience.

I will give your method a try and probably get that drying rack.
> 
(snip)
> 
> Usually the paper is not white to begin with...that's why they use 
optical
> brighteners.  From my take the faded color was nice...but not if 
you are
> trying to get bluish prints.  Personally I like a BW print on the 
brown side
> and so the more yellowed paper is not a problem.

This will be a real concern for the MIS users who seem to generally 
be going for a very cool look. If the paper is going to fade to a 
noticeable yellow then it probably not a good choice for them. I 
would think it might be an issue for color also. This is really a 
shame because I think that the Eclipse Satine gives the nicest inkjet 
print I have seen yet.


(snip)

> > 
> > Can you share any of the Dmax data with us? Having varnished some
> > prints, I have seen that the effect is huge but I have no
> > quantitative values.
> 
> Starting coated Dmaxs range from the low 1.9's (Eclipse) to nearly 
2.2
> (Concord Rag).  Honestly, I can't say that this difference compels 
me to
> prefer one paper over the other.  In contrast, a .14 difference, 
say between
> Eclipse uncoated (1.5) and Concord (1.64) makes a world of 
difference in the
> uncoated realm.
> 
(snip).
> 
> I'm also using a DaVinci varnish brush.  I was a painter, so I now 
how to
> use one, but more likely the difference is in the reahology of our 
coatings.
> Try thinning your best coating out with a little distilled 
water...this
> should take care of the brush strokes.  I've worked very hard to 
find a good
> sealant.  You may notice from my original post that I'm using a two 
part
> system.  This is because I really want to wet out the pigment and 
paper and
> seal first...then the top coat is easier to apply.

Robert, I don't know if you have kept up with my posts on my coating 
trials. If not, they are collected in the "Files" section of the 
group's homepage. Also Mark Romine's posts on the Piezo list. Both of 
us have been using "Morrison Mix" as a sealer. 1 part Golden Medium, 
1 part GAC 700 and 1 part water. Did not use distilled water though. 
Mark reports better luck using 2 parts water. Over this I have been 
using the Golden Polymer Varnish UVLS diluted 1 part water with 20% 
Flow Release to 2 parts varnish. I have also worked with the 
Varathane and ClearSheild, a vinyl coating for inkjet printed banners 
for outdoor display.
> 
> > I have used the MIS VM ink set in an Epson 1280 to print on the
> > Eclipse Satine and the results are some of the most pleasing I 
have
> > seen so far. It is really an excellent match of paper and ink. I 
am a
> > bit concerned about the long-term life of the brighteners in the
> > paper though. I have an uncoated print cooking on the rear deck 
of my
> > car to see how it holds up. Your results are reassuring.
> 
> The paper will yellow.

Sigh. Hopefully in proper storage and display this will not happen 
because I really love this paper.

> 
(snip)
> 
> I have several 1270's and I find the inks a nightmare.  I have a 
1270 print
> on concord rag that was made in April that is nearly invisible now 
from
> daylight.  These inks seem to be VERY paper sensitive.

I couldn't get an image to start with! The ink just disappeared into 
the paper!
> 
(snip)
> 
> All polyurethanes are light sensitive...that's why the waterbased 
products
> frequently contain UV inhibitors...its not to protect the 
wood...its to
> protect the coating.  I would still trust an acrylic any day for 
what we
> want the coating to do...that is unless you intend to walk on your
> photos...then I'd definitely go with a polyurethane.  In our tests, 
the
> polyurethane that we used gave the poorest Dmax and the worse fade 
inspite
> of the presence of UV inhibitors...it is not, however, 
Varathene...which is
> what you are using...I believe.

You have more experience in this area, so I defer to your judgment. I 
did find the Varathane much easier to work with than the Golden. I 
used a 1 part water to 2 part varnish as a sealer and top coat. I 
don't have any instruments but the Dmax looked about the same.
> 

(snip)

> > I think you could say the same for most of the polymers.
> 
> Yes, but acrylics (and polyvinyl acetate) are probably 80% of the 
coatings
> market.  Polyurethane come in many fewer flavors and are usually 
targeted at
> high wear markets (industrial coatings, floor coatings, furniture 
coatings).

Did you try any of the vinyl's?

(snip)

Keep us posted on the release date.

Thanks,

Martin

Blake,

Welcome. Which ink set did you have in mind?

I don't think even Brightcube sells profiles for the 1280. Check out:

http://www.photoinkjet.com/ and give them a call.

For Quad inks there are no icc profiles. Paul Roark is developing 
curves for the MIS VM ink set and ConeTech has promised a realease 
for PiezoBW by the end of September.

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezographyBW.html

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "B W Pro G" <bwprog@e...> 
wrote:

> Has anyone seen icc profiles for Brightcube Eclipse Satine Paper,
> Specifically for the 1280?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> D. Blake Scruggs - 281/568.0072
> B Works Production Group
> Image Enhancement Restoration Service
> www.bwprog.com
> Mailto:blake@b...
> 'Photos wanted, dead or alive'

Robert and Martin,

Just out of curiosity, what is each of your motivations for all of this 
coating business? Is it to further print permanence and 
protection, or is it for the visual look of having a print with a 
coating on it? (Or is it to start a business?)

I've been following this thread, and I'm shocked as to the degree 
of detail and experimentation. Then I realized that I didn't even 
know why you were doing it...

-Mark Tucker

Martin,
We have become conditioned to 1 step, 4, er 4, then 2...
Re: Inkset, Waiting on our second 1280, currently using CIS OEM.
We have MIS VT inkset and Pauls latest curves, but hate to swap
out 1280 CIS. (I'll do it if I get antsy, probably wait for 2nd 1280)

Based on messages about Eclipse Satine, a box was ordered.
The box states, 'icc profiles - check out web site' , nothing at
Brightcube or Photoinkjet.
Unless they are yapping about Xtreme Rules
http://www.photoinkjet.com/products/icc/
It's for the Epson 2000.
I'm waiting on a reply from Brightcube or anyone else who might
have a usable profile for the 1280 CIS OEM or  MIS (6 Ink) VT
for Satine. (Maybe Jerry?)

In the mean time, we have rcvd. positive comments on this image,
http://www.bwprog.com/feature.html
Blue Steel Smooth Sepia, though it just went on display a couple
days ago.
Imaging in PS, printed w/1280 CIS OEM, RRiver Satin and
UltraPro Gloss. (The Gloss is almost 3D)
I can see a pivot point coming or combining - changing the tone in
PS (Per above) - printing CIS OEM color or MIS VT.

I did print the image with the Satine using standard matte settings,
Mostly because that is what it feels like, I like it - smooth and
white.
My concerns about the 300 gsm - too thick, were unfounded.


D. Blake Scruggs
B Works Production Group
Image Enhancement Restoration Service
www.bwprog.com
Mailto:blake@...
'Photos wanted, dead or alive'

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:14 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Eclipse Satine icc


Blake,

Welcome. Which ink set did you have in mind?

I don't think even Brightcube sells profiles for the 1280. Check out:

http://www.photoinkjet.com/ and give them a call.

For Quad inks there are no icc profiles. Paul Roark is developing
curves for the MIS VM ink set and ConeTech has promised a realease
for PiezoBW by the end of September.

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezographyBW.html

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "B W Pro G" <bwprog@e...>
wrote:
> Has anyone seen icc profiles for Brightcube Eclipse Satine Paper,
> Specifically for the 1280?
>
> Thanks,
>
> D. Blake Scruggs - 281/568.0072
> B Works Production Group
> Image Enhancement Restoration Service
> www.bwprog.com
> Mailto:blake@b...
> 'Photos wanted, dead or alive'


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Cool digital PHOTO EDITING tools: Sign up for FREE now!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/K9orlD/vX4CAA/HvnFAA/ucIolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~
->

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

On 9/7/01 8:07 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> This will be a real concern for the MIS users who seem to generally
> be going for a very cool look. If the paper is going to fade to a
> noticeable yellow then it probably not a good choice for them. I
> would think it might be an issue for color also. This is really a
> shame because I think that the Eclipse Satine gives the nicest inkjet
> print I have seen yet.

By fading to yellow I mean it looks like Museo after it fades.  I wouldn't
want to use Museo for cool print...but it looks fantastic with a nice warm
Piezo print.

Robert

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

> Just out of curiosity, what is each of your motivations for all of this
> coating business? Is it to further print permanence and
> protection, or is it for the visual look of having a print with a
> coating on it? (Or is it to start a business?)

Mark,

I embarked on this project to get a print that reminded me of a finely
glazed oil painting.  Deep rich shadows, pristine highlights and luminous
midtones...a print that looked good enough to eat.  I assumed that with the
right coating I could also enhance image permanence. Antonis Rico provided
many hours of helpful discussion and helped in measuring dmaxs.  After an
initial set of huge paper and coating screens (back in June and July) I
decided to see where things stood on image permanence so I set up a fade
test with several papers and different coatings applied in different ways.

After having spent nearly a $1000 dollars on ink and paper and more than a
hundred hours working on my goal...and realizing the complexity of what I
was trying to achieve I decided to approach a vendor to see if they were
interested in such a product.  After seeing a sample of BW and color Piezo
and Epson Pigmented Ink prints they jumped at the opportunity and added that
they were willing to develop an ink jet paper that would be optimized for
coating Piezo prints...I jumped at this opportunity believing that this was
the next step for Piezo.

That's where things stand.  I don't have any experience with the MIS inks,
but the coatings that I'm working with work well on both piezo and epson
pigment prints...they should work on MIS prints if the prints on a given
paper are water resistant (piezo prints on Red River Aurora and Hawk
Mountain Osprey are not water resistant and therefore don't work with my
coatings). I hope to be in beta testing in the next 2 months.  Thanks for
your interest.

Robert

PS  I've been careful not to mention the vendor I'm working with as to avoid
spam but will let you know where you can find out more if you email me off
list.


> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
Antonis Rico provided
> many hours of helpful discussion and helped in measuring 
dmaxs. 

Robert,

I could see how you'd get excited about this project. The very first 
time that I began to spread that Oleopasto over a watercolor 
print, my jaw dropped when I watched the black areas in the 
print; they went from what I "thought" was black, to what seemed 
like two stops darker. The print also went from what was 
originally about a quarter-inch feeling of "visual depth", to about 
an inch of visual depth.

For me, there were/are only two big concerns: the whole 
yellowing potential, which seems like you're trying to address. 
But even moreso for me, the amount of work/time for each print 
seems like it would get extended about a hundred-fold. First, you 
have to obsess over the color, contrast and density of the print, 
but then now also set up this huge production line and drydown 
area, and then build in drydown times. This is definitely NOT an 
idea for a "production darkroom"; it's much more of a 
personal-work, or gallery-work thing, when you're not printing for 
a job on deadline, with the FedEx driver standing there tapping 
his foot, with "that look" on his face. But as long as you accept 
that, it's a worthwhile pursuit.

It seems like I'm already chained to this computer most of the 
day as it is now; the thought of adding much more 
post-production time after the print pops out of the 7000 makes 
me feel squeamish "down there". But since you've already found 
a wife, then the hardest part of life has been accomplished, so 
forge ahead and keep us posted.

-MT

> This is definitely NOT an
> idea for a "production darkroom"; it's much more of a
> personal-work, or gallery-work thing, when you're not printing for
> a job on deadline, with the FedEx driver standing there tapping
> his foot, with "that look" on his face. But as long as you accept
> that, it's a worthwhile pursuit.

I'm a fine art photographer, so quantity is not a serious concern for me.  I
should also say that I work small (a large print is 11x14). I'm going to
look at using a paint roller to apply my coatings for people who work
larger...they could certainly be applied with an HVLP sprayer for a big
run...but my focus is taking a piece of fine art and making it finer...this
will certainly take time.  I should say that with a little practice you can
get good at this...and faster.  I'd say at this point I could coat a show
(30, 11x14 prints) in an evening...with my water-based coating system these
prints will be dry to touch by the next morning.  Given the amount of time
it takes to take, scan, edit and print these photos this time addition is
trivial for me...and strangely fun...makes me think of the days when I made
hands on art.

> It seems like I'm already chained to this computer most of the
> day as it is now; the thought of adding much more
> post-production time after the print pops out of the 7000 makes
> me feel squeamish "down there". But since you've already found
> a wife, then the hardest part of life has been accomplished, so
> forge ahead and keep us posted.

In my opinion, the best way to save time is to switch to digital...my
post-camera time is approximately 1/10 shooting with my D1 over scanning
negs from my F100.  I'll soon upgrade to a D1X and the quality of my final
prints will be better than anything I can get from my F100/SS4000
combination.

Robert 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Mark,

This all got started by Bob Tyson on the Piezo list back in May or 
June or earlier. The idea was that photographers often varnished 
their photographs up until the advent of glossy silver gelatin paper 
in the 1930's. Even then people like Paul Strand continued to varnish.

So the thought was to see how Piezo prints would benefit from being 
varnished. The term "Alternative Coatings" got started because Bob 
was trying different varnishes from Home Depot. The idea was that 
they were alternatives to traditional art varnishes.

Basically by varnishing you knock down the matte finish of the 
pigment inks, which pushes up the Dmax into a range where you have 
something that is much closer in appearance to a silver fiber print.

As a side benefit you give the print great mechanical protection and 
increased fade resistance. Effects on long-term life are unknown.

I have been pursuing it out of curiosity and so did Robert initially. 
Robert decided to take his discoveries in the area commercial and 
hopes to have a product out in the near future that is custom 
tailored to this application.

If we get a little deep here it is because Robert is, I believe, a 
chemist and I am a chemical engineer. Sorry.

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> Robert and Martin,
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what is each of your motivations for all of 
this 

> coating business? Is it to further print permanence and 
> protection, or is it for the visual look of having a print with a 
> coating on it? (Or is it to start a business?)
> 
> I've been following this thread, and I'm shocked as to the degree 
> of detail and experimentation. Then I realized that I didn't even 
> know why you were doing it...
> 
> -Mark Tucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "B W Pro G" <bwprog@e...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> We have become conditioned to 1 step, 4, er 4, then 2...
> Re: Inkset, Waiting on our second 1280, currently using CIS OEM.
> We have MIS VT inkset and Pauls latest curves, but hate to swap
> out 1280 CIS. (I'll do it if I get antsy, probably wait for 2nd 
1280)

Blake,

I'd wait for the new 1280. No point in messing up a working system.

> 
> Based on messages about Eclipse Satine, a box was ordered.
> The box states, 'icc profiles - check out web site' , nothing at
> Brightcube or Photoinkjet.
> Unless they are yapping about Xtreme Rules
> http://www.photoinkjet.com/products/icc/
> It's for the Epson 2000.
> I'm waiting on a reply from Brightcube or anyone else who might
> have a usable profile for the 1280 CIS OEM or  MIS (6 Ink) VT
> for Satine. (Maybe Jerry?)

Let us know what you hear from Brightcube. I think you will be 
in "roll your own" territory. Paul's curves are calibrated on Epson 
Archival Matte and work reasonably well on the Eclipse Satine but 
need some tweaking. You can do this yourself as a Curves Adjustment 
layer in the image or save as a Transfer Function.

> 
> In the mean time, we have rcvd. positive comments on this image,
> http://www.bwprog.com/feature.html
> Blue Steel Smooth Sepia, though it just went on display a couple
> days ago.
> Imaging in PS, printed w/1280 CIS OEM, RRiver Satin and
> UltraPro Gloss. (The Gloss is almost 3D)
> I can see a pivot point coming or combining - changing the tone in
> PS (Per above) - printing CIS OEM color or MIS VT.

Nice effect but I don't know if you will be able to get that strong a 
color from the MIS VM (Variable Mix). You might want to try the 
Legion Photo Matte if you want that very blue look.
> 
> I did print the image with the Satine using standard matte settings,
> Mostly because that is what it feels like, I like it - smooth and
> white.
> My concerns about the 300 gsm - too thick, were unfounded.

The 1280 seems to have a very good paper transport.

Martin

(snip)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 9/7/01 8:07 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> > This will be a real concern for the MIS users who seem to 
generally
> > be going for a very cool look. If the paper is going to fade to a
> > noticeable yellow then it probably not a good choice for them. I
> > would think it might be an issue for color also. This is really a
> > shame because I think that the Eclipse Satine gives the nicest 
inkjet
> > print I have seen yet.
> 
> By fading to yellow I mean it looks like Museo after it fades.  I 
wouldn't
> want to use Museo for cool print...but it looks fantastic with a 
nice warm
> Piezo print.

Robert,

Thanks for the clarification. It should do well with the MIS VN using 
the Medium-Warm and Warm curves.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
(snip)
> 
> That's where things stand.  I don't have any experience with the 
MIS inks,
> but the coatings that I'm working with work well on both piezo and 
epson
> pigment prints...they should work on MIS prints if the prints on a 
given
> paper are water resistant (piezo prints on Red River Aurora and Hawk
> Mountain Osprey are not water resistant and therefore don't work 
with my
> coatings). 

Robert,

Just a note on this. I did find that with papers like the Hawk 
Mountain if you pre-spray with an aerosol acrylic they would survive 
the initial brush coat. Not a recommended workflow but if you do need 
or want to coat one of these papers it is a work around.

Martin

(snip)

Martin, actually I figured we were going to have to do our own
profiling. We have CV RGB, need to get the Spyder.
If I remember correctly, a couple of days ago I rcvd. an e-mail
from CV about an upgrade, ProfilerPLUS. I think it's just to make
the upgrade from/to CMYK/RGB easier.

Thanks for you time viewing our featured image.
Hopefully more folks will do that:
Show the image referenced in a description.
I realize if you are strictly print effect, you have an extra burden
with shooting the print effect & transferring it to a web site.
Forget trying to show the different finishes of paper.
It is a pain, especially with high end print work.

It's a good time to be involved with imaging!

D. Blake Scruggs - 281/568.0072
B Works Production Group
Image Enhancement Restoration Service
www.bwprog.com
Mailto:blake@...
'Photos wanted, dead or alive'

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Eclipse Satine icc


Let us know what you hear from Brightcube. I think you will be 
in "roll your own" territory. Paul's curves are calibrated on Epson 
Archival Matte and work reasonably well on the Eclipse Satine but 
need some tweaking. You can do this yourself as a Curves Adjustment 
layer in the image or save as a Transfer Function.

It works because these coatings are not water-based.  I believe that is
important to saturate the paper and pigment as part of the process.  These
sprays simply sit on the surface of the paper...so they don't meet my
requirements.  But that is an option.  Hawk Mountain has another similar
paper (with a different coating), Merlin, that does work, but it gives very
poor blacks with PiezoBW.

Robert

On 9/8/01 7:54 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> (snip)
>> 
>> That's where things stand.  I don't have any experience with the
> MIS inks,
>> but the coatings that I'm working with work well on both piezo and
> epson
>> pigment prints...they should work on MIS prints if the prints on a
> given
>> paper are water resistant (piezo prints on Red River Aurora and Hawk
>> Mountain Osprey are not water resistant and therefore don't work
> with my
>> coatings). 
> 
> Robert,
> 
> Just a note on this. I did find that with papers like the Hawk
> Mountain if you pre-spray with an aerosol acrylic they would survive
> the initial brush coat. Not a recommended workflow but if you do need
> or want to coat one of these papers it is a work around.
> 
> Martin
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Blake,

Well I hope some of that was of help. One last caution on the quad 
inks. Apparently CV's Profiler Pro is the only one capable of 
generating a RGB profile from quad inks. Check out Dan Culbertson's 
and Tyler Boley's posts.

Good luck,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "B W Pro G" <bwprog@e...> 
wrote:

> Martin, actually I figured we were going to have to do our own
> profiling. We have CV RGB, need to get the Spyder.
> If I remember correctly, a couple of days ago I rcvd. an e-mail
> from CV about an upgrade, ProfilerPLUS. I think it's just to make
> the upgrade from/to CMYK/RGB easier.
> 
> Thanks for you time viewing our featured image.
> Hopefully more folks will do that:
> Show the image referenced in a description.
> I realize if you are strictly print effect, you have an extra burden
> with shooting the print effect & transferring it to a web site.
> Forget trying to show the different finishes of paper.
> It is a pain, especially with high end print work.
> 
> It's a good time to be involved with imaging!
> 
> D. Blake Scruggs - 281/568.0072
> B Works Production Group
> Image Enhancement Restoration Service
> www.bwprog.com
> Mailto:blake@b...
> 'Photos wanted, dead or alive'
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:53 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Eclipse Satine icc
> 
> 
> Let us know what you hear from Brightcube. I think you will be 
> in "roll your own" territory. Paul's curves are calibrated on Epson 
> Archival Matte and work reasonably well on the Eclipse Satine but 
> need some tweaking. You can do this yourself as a Curves Adjustment 
> layer in the image or save as a Transfer Function.

Martin,

I *think* Tyler made it work with Profiler RGB. I reported that I couldn't,
but, in that I used my old Umax Astra 1200S, Profiler RGB may have been more
limited by the scanner than anything else. Furthermore, It did seem to work
for scripting my own curves, but for some reason didn't work with Paul's
curves. Unfortunately I haven't had the time to give it another go round,
but based on my quickie attempts I would encourage anyone who has an RGB
profiling package (and the chutzpa) to give it a shot.

Todd

> Blake,
> 
> Well I hope some of that was of help. One last caution on the quad
> inks. Apparently CV's Profiler Pro is the only one capable of
> generating a RGB profile from quad inks. Check out Dan Culbertson's
> and Tyler Boley's posts.
> 
> Good luck,
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "B W Pro G" <bwprog@e...>
> wrote:
>> Martin, actually I figured we were going to have to do our own
>> profiling. We have CV RGB, need to get the Spyder.
>> If I remember correctly, a couple of days ago I rcvd. an e-mail
>> from CV about an upgrade, ProfilerPLUS. I think it's just to make
>> the upgrade from/to CMYK/RGB easier.
>> 
>> Thanks for you time viewing our featured image.
>> Hopefully more folks will do that:
>> Show the image referenced in a description.
>> I realize if you are strictly print effect, you have an extra burden
>> with shooting the print effect & transferring it to a web site.
>> Forget trying to show the different finishes of paper.
>> It is a pain, especially with high end print work.
>> 
>> It's a good time to be involved with imaging!
>> 
>> D. Blake Scruggs - 281/568.0072
>> B Works Production Group
>> Image Enhancement Restoration Service
>> www.bwprog.com
>> Mailto:blake@b...
>> 'Photos wanted, dead or alive'

>> 
>> Let us know what you hear from Brightcube. I think you will be
>> in "roll your own" territory. Paul's curves are calibrated on Epson
>> Archival Matte and work reasonably well on the Eclipse Satine but
>> need some tweaking. You can do this yourself as a Curves Adjustment
>> layer in the image or save as a Transfer Function.

Todd,

Profiler RGB did/does work, at least with the MIS Variable Tone ink. 
I haven't played with it too much, but I can get a good softproof of 
my image with Pauls curves turned on. The profile would still need a 
little tweaking to be dead on for generating curves, but it will show 
the toning effects of the curves as you play with them.

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> I *think* Tyler made it work with Profiler RGB. I reported that I 
couldn't,
> but, in that I used my old Umax Astra 1200S, Profiler RGB may have 
been more
> limited by the scanner than anything else. Furthermore, It did seem 
to work
> for scripting my own curves, but for some reason didn't work with 
Paul's
> curves. Unfortunately I haven't had the time to give it another go 
round,
> but based on my quickie attempts I would encourage anyone who has 
an RGB

> profiling package (and the chutzpa) to give it a shot.
> 
> Todd

Terry,

Do you think it is worth the $200 to get started in the right 
direction to building my own curves to apply under Paul's to match to 
a particular paper?

What scanner are you using to work with the Profiler RGB?

Thanks,
Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Todd,
> 
> Profiler RGB did/does work, at least with the MIS Variable Tone 
ink. 
> I haven't played with it too much, but I can get a good softproof 
of 
> my image with Pauls curves turned on. The profile would still need 
a 
> little tweaking to be dead on for generating curves, but it will 
show 
> the toning effects of the curves as you play with them.
> 
> Terry
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> 
> wrote:
> > Martin,
> > 
> > I *think* Tyler made it work with Profiler RGB. I reported that I 
> couldn't,
> > but, in that I used my old Umax Astra 1200S, Profiler RGB may 
have 
> been more
> > limited by the scanner than anything else. Furthermore, It did 
seem 
> to work
> > for scripting my own curves, but for some reason didn't work with 
> Paul's
> > curves. Unfortunately I haven't had the time to give it another 
go 

> round,
> > but based on my quickie attempts I would encourage anyone who has 
> an RGB
> > profiling package (and the chutzpa) to give it a shot.
> > 
> > Todd

Martin,

As to your first question, my best answer has to be at this point, I 
honestly don't know. I can get a very valid softproof of an image 
with Pauls curves turned on (you see the image as you should without 
the funky colors that the curves apply), but I haven't tried to tweak 
it enough yet to know if it will work as accurately as it should on a 
21 step grayscale to generate the curves. It takes my computer about 
10 to 15 minutes to generate a profile for the MIS Variable Tones, 
and upwards of 45 minutes for the Spectratones (color is almost 
immediate). So far I have just generated base profiles to see how it 
would work. Profiler RGB may not have enough power to get the profile 
accurate enough.

As to your second question, it is an Epson Expression 1600.

Terry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Terry,
> 
> Do you think it is worth the $200 to get started in the right 
> direction to building my own curves to apply under Paul's to match 
to 

> a particular paper?
> 
> What scanner are you using to work with the Profiler RGB?
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin

Terry,

Thanks for the feedback. If you pursue the Profile RGB, keep us 
posted on your progress. I would think your Epson 1600 would do as 
well as any of the good flatbeds for this.

I would also like to see you post something on your experiences, set-
up and workflow with the Spectratones. I liked the color of the ink 
and was impressed by the samples Allen sent but I haven't heard 
anything from an end user.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" <terryr1028@h...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> As to your first question, my best answer has to be at this point, 
I 
> honestly don't know. I can get a very valid softproof of an image 
> with Pauls curves turned on (you see the image as you should 
without 
> the funky colors that the curves apply), but I haven't tried to 
tweak 
> it enough yet to know if it will work as accurately as it should on 
a 
> 21 step grayscale to generate the curves. It takes my computer 
about 
> 10 to 15 minutes to generate a profile for the MIS Variable Tones, 
> and upwards of 45 minutes for the Spectratones (color is almost 
> immediate). So far I have just generated base profiles to see how 
it 
> would work. Profiler RGB may not have enough power to get the 
profile 
> accurate enough.
> 
> As to your second question, it is an Epson Expression 1600.
> 
> Terry
> 
(snip)