Digital BW, The Print

Jim,

You wrote:

>... With a CFS and MIS VM ink in an 1280.

>In the first 4-6 weeks of usage I did not notice these problems, nor
>did I have them when using individual non tubing carts for 6 months
>prior to CFS install. Now at 10 weeks things seem to be happening but
>I would like others to verify. And my test samples are only 20 hours
>dry yet, so drawing conclusions is premature:

>1) 7-10 fold increase in frequency of cleaning cycles needed to get a
>good nozzle check every 12 hours.

Given your location and experience, I'm surprised you use a continuous feed
system at all.  I no longer do.  They clearly have more places where there
could be trouble.

>2) Visible ink caking inside K bottle and a little in C bottle.

The K has the highest ink load and uses a more volatile solvent.  If you
have used the standard MIS Archival K (not as black), does it have fewer
problems?

The C has the next highest loading.

>3)..."leopard spots" ... Within a few minutes to an hour,
>all but the 100%k, possibly 95%k steps look nearly normal- spots fade away.
...

Sounds like drying I've seen on other papers.  I don't know why it changes.
Perhaps humidity?  Perhaps the more volatile carriers have evaporated
through the tubing, leaving a carrier with a different characteristic?

>...mottling at 100%k is more pronounced on both fresh samples,

More solvent would mean more evaporation and more change of characteristics.
???

I wonder if the UltraChrome black would work for you there.  I think Epson
has done the most to get the inks to behave themselves in lots of different
environments.  I hear that the UC-K is not that great on Eclipse, and, of
course, it is more expensive.

Good luck.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >... With a CFS and MIS VM ink in an 1280.
> 
> >In the first 4-6 weeks of usage I did not notice these problems, 
nor
> >did I have them when using individual non tubing carts for 6 months
> >prior to CFS install. Now at 10 weeks things seem to be happening 
<snip>

> Given your location and experience, I'm surprised you use a 
continuous feed
> system at all.  I no longer do.  They clearly have more places where 
there
> could be trouble.

Yeah, you said it. However I thought I could put one over on other 
nature because I installed the CFS on July 28th, when the humidity 
here generally keeps above 40% without needing a boost from my 
humidifier except maybe around 4 hours of running time every two weeks 
or so.

In mid September I had to start to use the humidifier more and more to 
maintain 40%RH min. Oh well...even with artifically boosting humidity 
it doesn't cut it.

> 
> >2) Visible ink caking inside K bottle and a little in C bottle.
> 
> The K has the highest ink load and uses a more volatile solvent.  If 
you
> have used the standard MIS Archival K (not as black), does it have 
fewer
> problems?

Haven't tried that option. How would the curves be affected, 
generally? Jerry was experimenting with using Epson dye black at some 
point back, I'd expect he got great density with that but fade 
resistance?
 
> 
> The C has the next highest loading.

And I did observe a small amount of "caking" in the C bottle.

> 
> >3)..."leopard spots" ... Within a few minutes to an hour,
> >all but the 100%k, possibly 95%k steps look nearly normal- spots 
fade away.
> ...
> 
> Sounds like drying I've seen on other papers.  I don't know why it 
changes.
> Perhaps humidity?  Perhaps the more volatile carriers have 
evaporated
> through the tubing, leaving a carrier with a different 
characteristic?

Yes, that's my suspscion. I imagine a more non-uniform ink or clumpy, 
due to evaporation, hitting the paper. Sometimes it spits out a clumpy 
wad, sometimes a more dilute k.

> 
> >...mottling at 100%k is more pronounced on both fresh samples,
> 
> More solvent would mean more evaporation and more change of 
characteristics.
> ???

Yes and I can confirm at 48 hours drying time that there is a visible 
difference in 100%k, a little in 95%k. If you look really hard, traces 
of mottling are still faintly present at as light as 70% occasionally.

So I pulled the CFS and ordered fresh bottles and carts for vacuum 
filling. Am sending Epson ink through printhead in the meantime to 
flush it out good.

> 
> I wonder if the UltraChrome black would work for you there.  I think 
Epson
> has done the most to get the inks to behave themselves in lots of 
different
> environments.

I'm leaning that way, this is too much work. My two worries are fade 
resistance of UC vs MIS VM, and finding a workflow that doesn't cost 
$500 if possible<g>. Any illunination on these?



  I hear that the UC-K is not that great on Eclipse, 
and, of
> course, it is more expensive.

I got TSS photo to print out some stuff on Eclipse 190gsm with both 
matte AND photo black. Yes it has some problems the biggest is I'm 
disturbed by the drop out from just higher than 90%k to 100%k. Also of 
course they didn't use any correcting software and there is 
metamerism, and also an overall color change in different light.

OTOH, if it's the only thing that doesn't dryout, clog up, print 
green, fade away in two days of medium light, destroy the printer, etc 
etc, like everything else has these last two years, then hey, I might 
live with it- it at least sort of works.<g>

> 
> Good luck.

Thank you Paul.
Jim H.
> 
> Paul

Does anybody have enough chemical experience to say what would happen if 
you added a drop or two of photo flo
to each ink bottle?  I would think it might help with clogs, but 
wouldn't want to try it if there were any other problems.
It doesn't seem to affect photo films or papers in any way, so was just 
wondering if it may make inks flow better.

Jerry



jim hayes wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
>>Jim,
>>
>>You wrote:
>>
>>
>>>... With a CFS and MIS VM ink in an 1280.
>>
>>>In the first 4-6 weeks of usage I did not notice these problems, 
>>
> nor
> 
>>>did I have them when using individual non tubing carts for 6 months
>>>prior to CFS install. Now at 10 weeks things seem to be happening 
>>
> <snip>
> 
>>Given your location and experience, I'm surprised you use a 
> 
> continuous feed
> 
>>system at all.  I no longer do.  They clearly have more places where 
> 
> there
> 
>>could be trouble.
> 
> 
> Yeah, you said it. However I thought I could put one over on other 
> nature because I installed the CFS on July 28th, when the humidity 
> here generally keeps above 40% without needing a boost from my 
> humidifier except maybe around 4 hours of running time every two weeks 
> or so.
> 
> In mid September I had to start to use the humidifier more and more to 
> maintain 40%RH min. Oh well...even with artifically boosting humidity 
> it doesn't cut it.
> 
> 
>>>2) Visible ink caking inside K bottle and a little in C bottle.
>>
>>The K has the highest ink load and uses a more volatile solvent.  If 
> 
> you
> 
>>have used the standard MIS Archival K (not as black), does it have 
> 
> fewer
> 
>>problems?
> 
> 
> Haven't tried that option. How would the curves be affected, 
> generally? Jerry was experimenting with using Epson dye black at some 
> point back, I'd expect he got great density with that but fade 
> resistance?
>  
> 
>>The C has the next highest loading.
> 
> 
> And I did observe a small amount of "caking" in the C bottle.
> 
> 
>>>3)..."leopard spots" ... Within a few minutes to an hour,
>>>all but the 100%k, possibly 95%k steps look nearly normal- spots 
>>
> fade away.
> 
>>...
>>
>>Sounds like drying I've seen on other papers.  I don't know why it 
> 
> changes.
> 
>>Perhaps humidity?  Perhaps the more volatile carriers have 
> 
> evaporated
> 
>>through the tubing, leaving a carrier with a different 
> 
> characteristic?
> 
> Yes, that's my suspscion. I imagine a more non-uniform ink or clumpy, 
> due to evaporation, hitting the paper. Sometimes it spits out a clumpy 
> wad, sometimes a more dilute k.
> 
> 
>>>...mottling at 100%k is more pronounced on both fresh samples,
>>
>>More solvent would mean more evaporation and more change of 
> 
> characteristics.
> 
>>???
> 
> 
> Yes and I can confirm at 48 hours drying time that there is a visible 
> difference in 100%k, a little in 95%k. If you look really hard, traces 
> of mottling are still faintly present at as light as 70% occasionally.
> 
> So I pulled the CFS and ordered fresh bottles and carts for vacuum 
> filling. Am sending Epson ink through printhead in the meantime to 
> flush it out good.
> 
> 
>>I wonder if the UltraChrome black would work for you there.  I think 
> 
> Epson
> 
>>has done the most to get the inks to behave themselves in lots of 
> 
> different
> 
>>environments.
> 
> 
> I'm leaning that way, this is too much work. My two worries are fade 
> resistance of UC vs MIS VM, and finding a workflow that doesn't cost 
> $500 if possible<g>. Any illunination on these?
> 
> 
> 
>   I hear that the UC-K is not that great on Eclipse, 
> and, of
> 
>>course, it is more expensive.
> 
> 
> I got TSS photo to print out some stuff on Eclipse 190gsm with both 
> matte AND photo black. Yes it has some problems the biggest is I'm 
> disturbed by the drop out from just higher than 90%k to 100%k. Also of 
> course they didn't use any correcting software and there is 
> metamerism, and also an overall color change in different light.
> 
> OTOH, if it's the only thing that doesn't dryout, clog up, print 
> green, fade away in two days of medium light, destroy the printer, etc 
> etc, like everything else has these last two years, then hey, I might 
> live with it- it at least sort of works.<g>
> 
>>Good luck.
> 
> 
> Thank you Paul.
> Jim H.
> 
>>Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Jim,

>> The VM K has the highest ink load and uses a more volatile solvent.
>>If you have used the standard MIS Archival K (not as black),
>>does it have fewer problems?

> How would the curves be affected, generally?

Although the curves were written for the MIS VM black ink, the standard MIS
quad black also works fine.  With MIS quad black ink the separation between
the 95% and 100% values is somewhat compressed, but some actually think this
gives an appearance of better blacks.  If you want more separation between
those values (more of a "straight-line" response), use the Transfer Function
(the "Transfer" button in the Printer Setup dialog box) and put "94" in the
"95%" box.

> Jerry was experimenting with using Epson dye black at some
>point back, I'd expect he got great density with that but fade
>resistance?

Yes, I like deep blacks too, but I'm trying to go the other direction -- I
want NO dyes in my inksets.

>> I wonder if the UltraChrome black would work for you there.
>>I think Epson has done the most to get the inks to behave
>>themselves in lots of different environments.

>I'm leaning that way, this is too much work. My two worries are fade
>resistance of UC vs MIS VM,

UC-K appears to be tougher than the MIS VM-K.

> and finding a workflow that doesn't cost
>$500 if possible<g>. Any illumination on these?

I'm thinking of pulling UC-K from a 9600 cart.  I think the price would be
close to PiezoTone pricing.

Have you tried the PT midtones?  I'm curious how the carrier they use would
react in your environment.  Of course, you'd be stuck with one tone, but
that is a question of your subjective preferences.  The PT midtones with the
UC-K probably makes the most lightfast desktop inkset possible with today's
technology.  Add a coat of UV absorbing coating, and you'd be close to a 200
year inkset.

>  I hear that the UC-K is not that great on Eclipse,

It does appear to be weaker than MIS VM-K on all but EAM.

>and, of course, it is more expensive.

Or course.

I understand some pay $ for old carts.  Perhaps the 9600 cart with a new
chip would get you a few (relatively trivial, I suppose) bucks back.

>I got TSS photo to print out some stuff on Eclipse 190gsm with both
>matte AND photo black. Yes it has some problems the biggest is I'm
>disturbed by the drop out from just higher than 90%k to 100%k.

Was this the full UC inkset in a 2200?

>Also of course they didn't use any correcting software and there is
>metamerism, and also an overall color change in different light.

The full inkset is still a color inkset, and not the greatest for B&W.  I'm
more inclined to use the UC-K (matte) as part of a quad set.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Does anybody have enough chemical experience to say what would 
happen if 
> you added a drop or two of photo flo
> to each ink bottle?


Foam???



A.

Foam, from just a drop in 4 ounces? Maybe half a drop?

Jerry

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Does anybody have enough chemical experience to say what would
> happen if
> > you added a drop or two of photo flo
> > to each ink bottle?
> 
> Foam???
>

I don't know enough to express an opinion on this.

But wouldn't you want to be preserving the chemical makeup of the ink, 
not adding variables to it? Since it's such a hocus-pocus finely tuned 
suspension  of pigment that is.

I can confirm that, on my system, a CFS not only shows symptoms of k 
ink evaporation through deposits inside bottle and increased clogging, 
but it affects the shadow area of the print, mainly through mottling. 
But you have to do a stepwedge and compare it to one done in past when 
ink was fresh to see it.
 And a big YMMV<g>,
Jim H.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Foam, from just a drop in 4 ounces? Maybe half a drop?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:

> > > Does anybody have enough chemical experience to say what would
> > happen if
> > > you added a drop or two of photo flo
> > > to each ink bottle?
> > 
> > Foam???
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> >> The VM K has the highest ink load and uses a more volatile 
solvent.
> >>If you have used the standard MIS Archival K (not as black),
<snip>

thanks I will print out your response and tuck it away as I consider 
getting some of the archival k. I already ordered a full replacement 
VM hex set, and I first want to see if I can fill a CART and get the 
mottling to go away, so I can get closure on this experiment. If it 
doesn't go away, it's either not the ink, or the printhead is gummed 
up with the altered past ink.


> 
> UC-K appears to be tougher than the MIS VM-K.

Excellent. I should follow the 2200 threads more closely than I have 
been...

> 
> > and finding a workflow that doesn't cost
> >$500 if possible<g>. Any illumination on these?
> 
> I'm thinking of pulling UC-K from a 9600 cart.  I think the price 
would be
> close to PiezoTone pricing.

Actually I was speaking of the IP 5 software for $500. But my gawd, is 
the UC ink for 2200 more expensive than PT? Well, if the printer is 
more behaved that's worth $$<shrug>...


> 
> Have you tried the PT midtones?  I'm curious how the carrier they 
use would
> react in your environment.  Of course, you'd be stuck with one tone, 
but
> that is a question of your subjective preferences.  The PT midtones 
with the
> UC-K probably makes the most lightfast desktop inkset possible with 
today's
> technology.  Add a coat of UV absorbing coating, and you'd be close 
to a 200
> year inkset.

I don't know. Sounds like a dream team, but...I just want to get back 
to a simple solution that works without endless tweakings, clogs, cart 
fillings, printhead failures, density changes (yes I know PT is not 
the old piezo ink), mottling,  non Epson cart chips blowing out, newly 
installed carts bleeding ink into printer bed, having to  run ink 
every 12 hours, controlling humidity and temperature and monitoring 
them closely everyday, having to run control test prints every month 
to be sure nothing is changing in printer or ink, throwing away 
expensive ink after only 3 months of usage because it's gone bad, 
throwing away CFS/CIS for the same reason, or even any HINT that 
something new may have a suspected problem flowing through a head.
Maybe I should move to a wetter climate.<sorry for the rant>

Arrgh! I think a 2200 next year is a certainty, even tho $$$...
 

> >I got TSS photo to print out some stuff on Eclipse 190gsm with both
> >matte AND photo black. Yes it has some problems the biggest is I'm
> >disturbed by the drop out from just higher than 90%k to 100%k.
> 
> Was this the full UC inkset in a 2200?

Yes, and they were changing out their photo k for matte k on the day 
they did my job, so for free they printed out my files on  the 
alternate k ink too, both on Eclipse.

> 
> >Also of course they didn't use any correcting software and there is
> >metamerism, and also an overall color change in different light.
> 
> The full inkset is still a color inkset, and not the greatest for 
B&W.  I'm
> more inclined to use the UC-K (matte) as part of a quad set.

My "matte k ink" sample shows shadow compression and well, it's rather 
greenish in daylight. Of course, IP5 can fix this, if I choose one 
light source to always view it under.
Jim H.

> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

>Does anybody have enough chemical experience to say what would happen if
>you added a drop or two of photo flo
>to each ink bottle?  I would think it might help with clogs, but
>wouldn't want to try it if there were any other problems.

You just might. A family relative had a major problem with 
constipation a while back. Forget Ex-Lax. The industrial strength 
prescription laxative she took was pure polyetheline glycol. That's 
exactly what Photo-Flo is.

So, it might be good for all sorts of clogs.


-- 
Bruce C. Kinch
Associate Professor of Photography
The Art Institute of Boston at Lesley University