Digital BW, The Print

Robert,

Thanks for the information.

One thing I've been curious about is whether the UC light black helps make
for smoother transitions, relative to the quads we've been using, as the
black ink is introduced.

Having received the MIS UC clone black inks, and assuming the designers of
those got their densities right, I was interested to find that the light
black density is essentially the same as the cyan (dark gray ink) density of
the PiezoBW and MIS FS/VM systems.  So, in terms of ultimate performance,
the UC ink systems are not likely to have any shadow tone advantage to our
usual quadtone inksets.

>Epson 2200 (Ultrachrome with Matte Black):
>...
> Dots are visible from the light gray ink in the highlights and also
>around 80% when the black ink enters.

Even with the 2200 small dot size, it looks like more than one gray ink is
needed.  The RIP must really try to hold the color inks down to a bare
minimum.  Do they use any color inks in the highlights at all?

>Unfortunately, unlike the photo black ultrachrome ink, which is
>much warmer, the matte black ultrachrome ink is so cool that
>without adding yellow you can't warm up the print.

Actually, I think it is the light black that must be relatively cool.  The
Epson Matte Black ink I pulled from a 7600 cart is very warm.  The quad I
made from the inks are more like a totally warmed, old MIS quad.

>The yellow has a metamerism problem, so
>IP does not use it.  ...

Interestingly, the MIS UC clone ink tones and characteristics appear to be
reversed from the Epson product.  The MIS Matte Black is neutral, but the
MIS Light Black is carbon warm.  The MIS Matte Black is weak on EAM but
strong on LPM.  With the MIS UC clone ink tones, it would allow the UC
printers with appropriate RIPs to cover a larger tone range while still
avoiding the use of the yellow ink.


>Epson 2200 (inks as described above)
>Tintpicker (0/0)--Cool
>Dmax 1.71 (1.75)

        Cyan    Magenta    Yellow    Visual
>25%     0.28    0.30    0.28    0.29
>50%     0.57    0.61    0.60    0.60
>75%     1.03    1.08    1.06    1.06

This is actually a medium warm/magenta set of readings.  Yellow is higher
than cyan.  The 75% magenta reading is really high.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

On 12/12/02 7:02 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> One thing I've been curious about is whether the UC light black helps make
> for smoother transitions, relative to the quads we've been using, as the
> black ink is introduced.
> 
> Having received the MIS UC clone black inks, and assuming the designers of
> those got their densities right, I was interested to find that the light
> black density is essentially the same as the cyan (dark gray ink) density of
> the PiezoBW and MIS FS/VM systems.  So, in terms of ultimate performance,
> the UC ink systems are not likely to have any shadow tone advantage to our
> usual quadtone inksets.

Correct.  Actually I think the cyan channel ink is already too dark, I'm
experimenting now with a magenta/cyan mix.  This might help to get rid of
the cyan channel dots in the mid tones in the quad systems.  There is a huge
jump from the magenta channel to cyan channel in the MIS/Sundance quad
sets...too big in my opinion.

>> Epson 2200 (Ultrachrome with Matte Black):
>> ...
>> Dots are visible from the light gray ink in the highlights and also
>> around 80% when the black ink enters.
> 
> Even with the 2200 small dot size, it looks like more than one gray ink is
> needed.  The RIP must really try to hold the color inks down to a bare
> minimum.  Do they use any color inks in the highlights at all?

Very, very little.  I can see a stray cyan dot here and there with a 8x
loupe...but because of the variable droplet its really hard with an 8x to
see the cyan dots even at higher densities.
> 
>> Unfortunately, unlike the photo black ultrachrome ink, which is
>> much warmer, the matte black ultrachrome ink is so cool that
>> without adding yellow you can't warm up the print.
> 
> Actually, I think it is the light black that must be relatively cool.  The
> Epson Matte Black ink I pulled from a 7600 cart is very warm.  The quad I
> made from the inks are more like a totally warmed, old MIS quad.

Weird.  Colorbyte has been complaining about how cool the matte black is
relative to the photo black...but that might be confounded with what papers
they go on.  The semi-gloss/luster papers tend to make things much warmer in
my experience. You might be right about the light black...but it would have
to also have a paper interaction to explain the difference.

>> The yellow has a metamerism problem, so
>> IP does not use it.  ...
> 
> Interestingly, the MIS UC clone ink tones and characteristics appear to be
> reversed from the Epson product.  The MIS Matte Black is neutral, but the
> MIS Light Black is carbon warm.  The MIS Matte Black is weak on EAM but
> strong on LPM.  With the MIS UC clone ink tones, it would allow the UC
> printers with appropriate RIPs to cover a larger tone range while still
> avoiding the use of the yellow ink.

Right, well I'm still hoping that we have some new RIP options in the new
future...and I'm betting we will, wink, wink.
> 
> 
>> Epson 2200 (inks as described above)
>> Tintpicker (0/0)--Cool
>> Dmax 1.71 (1.75)
> 
>       Cyan    Magenta    Yellow    Visual
>> 25%     0.28    0.30    0.28    0.29
>> 50%     0.57    0.61    0.60    0.60
>> 75%     1.03    1.08    1.06    1.06
> 
> This is actually a medium warm/magenta set of readings.  Yellow is higher
> than cyan.  The 75% magenta reading is really high.

The labels were Colorbyte's.  Honestly I don't see a big difference visually
in any of them...one thing is very visually clear...they are all very cool
relative to Cone's Neutral-Warms.  This leads me to believe that these
spectrophotometer readings may be at the limit of their ability to
distinguish these things.  The tint picker is definitely not a substitute
for VM.  There is something else coming down the pike, however, that might
be.

Robert

> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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>

This is very unscientific and may not help much, but a quick check of 
my ink levels on my 2200 which has printed no color yet except for a 
color calibration target:

light grey ink is down the most. Matt black is next most used up, 
followed by Light cyan and light magenta about in equal proportion. 
regular m and c and y are hardly down at all.
Jim H.





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> One thing I've been curious about is whether the UC light black 
helps make
> for smoother transitions, relative to the quads we've been using, as 
the
> black ink is introduced.
> 
> Having received the MIS UC clone black inks, and assuming the 
designers of
> those got their densities right, I was interested to find that the 
light
> black density is essentially the same as the cyan (dark gray ink) 
density of
> the PiezoBW and MIS FS/VM systems.  So, in terms of ultimate 
performance,
> the UC ink systems are not likely to have any shadow tone advantage 
to our
> usual quadtone inksets.
> 
> >Epson 2200 (Ultrachrome with Matte Black):
> >...
> > Dots are visible from the light gray ink in the highlights and 
also
> >around 80% when the black ink enters.
> 
> Even with the 2200 small dot size, it looks like more than one gray 
ink is
> needed.  The RIP must really try to hold the color inks down to a 
bare
> minimum.  Do they use any color inks in the highlights at all?
> 
> >Unfortunately, unlike the photo black ultrachrome ink, which is
> >much warmer, the matte black ultrachrome ink is so cool that
> >without adding yellow you can't warm up the print.
> 
> Actually, I think it is the light black that must be relatively 
cool.  The
> Epson Matte Black ink I pulled from a 7600 cart is very warm.  The 
quad I
> made from the inks are more like a totally warmed, old MIS quad.
> 
> >The yellow has a metamerism problem, so
> >IP does not use it.  ...
> 
> Interestingly, the MIS UC clone ink tones and characteristics appear 
to be
> reversed from the Epson product.  The MIS Matte Black is neutral, 
but the
> MIS Light Black is carbon warm.  The MIS Matte Black is weak on EAM 
but
> strong on LPM.  With the MIS UC clone ink tones, it would allow the 
UC
> printers with appropriate RIPs to cover a larger tone range while 
still
> avoiding the use of the yellow ink.
> 
> 
> >Epson 2200 (inks as described above)
> >Tintpicker (0/0)--Cool
> >Dmax 1.71 (1.75)
> 
>         Cyan    Magenta    Yellow    Visual
> >25%     0.28    0.30    0.28    0.29
> >50%     0.57    0.61    0.60    0.60
> >75%     1.03    1.08    1.06    1.06
> 
> This is actually a medium warm/magenta set of readings.  Yellow is 
higher

> than cyan.  The 75% magenta reading is really high.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

IP uses no cyan, magenta or yellow to print BW...only light cyan and light
magenta.  The grayscale is mostly light gray...black doesn't come in until
around 80%...so your observations are correct.  If you don't intend to print
any color with the printer it would be a good idea to run a 100% magneta,
yellow and cyan test sheet through the printer periodically to make sure
that those heads don't dry up.  Alternatively, you could do

Robert

 On 12/12/02 11:01 PM, "jim hayes <jimhayes@...>" <jimhayes@...>
wrote:

> This is very unscientific and may not help much, but a quick check of
> my ink levels on my 2200 which has printed no color yet except for a
> color calibration target:
> 
> light grey ink is down the most. Matt black is next most used up,
> followed by Light cyan and light magenta about in equal proportion.
> regular m and c and y are hardly down at all.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>> Robert,
>> 
>> Thanks for the information.
>> 
>> One thing I've been curious about is whether the UC light black
> helps make
>> for smoother transitions, relative to the quads we've been using, as
> the
>> black ink is introduced.
>> 
>> Having received the MIS UC clone black inks, and assuming the
> designers of
>> those got their densities right, I was interested to find that the
> light
>> black density is essentially the same as the cyan (dark gray ink)
> density of
>> the PiezoBW and MIS FS/VM systems.  So, in terms of ultimate
> performance,
>> the UC ink systems are not likely to have any shadow tone advantage
> to our
>> usual quadtone inksets.
>> 
>>> Epson 2200 (Ultrachrome with Matte Black):
>>> ...
>>> Dots are visible from the light gray ink in the highlights and
> also
>>> around 80% when the black ink enters.
>> 
>> Even with the 2200 small dot size, it looks like more than one gray
> ink is
>> needed.  The RIP must really try to hold the color inks down to a
> bare
>> minimum.  Do they use any color inks in the highlights at all?
>> 
>>> Unfortunately, unlike the photo black ultrachrome ink, which is
>>> much warmer, the matte black ultrachrome ink is so cool that
>>> without adding yellow you can't warm up the print.
>> 
>> Actually, I think it is the light black that must be relatively
> cool.  The
>> Epson Matte Black ink I pulled from a 7600 cart is very warm.  The
> quad I
>> made from the inks are more like a totally warmed, old MIS quad.
>> 
>>> The yellow has a metamerism problem, so
>>> IP does not use it.  ...
>> 
>> Interestingly, the MIS UC clone ink tones and characteristics appear
> to be
>> reversed from the Epson product.  The MIS Matte Black is neutral,
> but the
>> MIS Light Black is carbon warm.  The MIS Matte Black is weak on EAM
> but
>> strong on LPM.  With the MIS UC clone ink tones, it would allow the
> UC
>> printers with appropriate RIPs to cover a larger tone range while
> still
>> avoiding the use of the yellow ink.
>> 
>> 
>>> Epson 2200 (inks as described above)
>>> Tintpicker (0/0)--Cool
>>> Dmax 1.71 (1.75)
>> 
>>         Cyan    Magenta    Yellow    Visual
>>> 25%     0.28    0.30    0.28    0.29
>>> 50%     0.57    0.61    0.60    0.60
>>> 75%     1.03    1.08    1.06    1.06
>> 
>> This is actually a medium warm/magenta set of readings.  Yellow is
> higher
>> than cyan.  The 75% magenta reading is really high.
>> 
>> Paul
>> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

on 12/13/02 10:31 AM, Robert Morrison at rmorrison@... wrote:

> IP uses no cyan, magenta or yellow to print BW...only light cyan and light
> magenta.

My understanding is all inks EXCEPT Yellow are used.

Andrew Rodney 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]