Digital BW, The Print

I've spent some time now creating a curve for PowerRIP that gives me 
totally neutral BW prints on my 2100, good shadow detail and no 
metamerism whatsoever.

The results are actually so good I'm not sure where to go from here. 
Maybe some tweaking in the 0-25% area which may or may not be 1-2% 
too dark.

I've been using the Epson Gray Balancer reference chart to make 
comparisons between the chart and printed wedges while making 
adjustments. The biggest change I had to make was in the 93-100% area 
which all printed black. I now get very good separation in that area 
as well. After making the curve I did a scan of an August Sander 
photo from a book I got for christmas and made a print with my curve 
to verify. The print is virtually indistinguishable from the book in 
both daylight and indoors lightning.

If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve available so 
you have something to play around with if you decide to try the 
program.

I've never actually had the chance to see a really good BW print with 
any type of inking system so I'm very interested to see how this will 
compare to the other prints in the upcoming exchange.

Hello Daniel,

>If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve available
>so you have something to play around with if you decide to try the 
>program.

I would like to have it, as I'm considering getting a 2200.

Thanks very much.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I'm currently in the middle of tweaking my Gray Balancer curves to 
try and get neutral grays.  It's a pain in the ass and I must have 
got through about 30 pages of test prints so far!!  I keep 
adding/removing magenta, adding another control point, re-printing 
and so on.  I'm getting closer to a good result, but the closer I get 
the harder it is to do that final step.  

I don't have any PowerRIP, or RIP software, and actually don't know 
much about that stuff.  Am I really missing out?  Am I wasting my 
time screwing around with GB and printing ICM?

Also, how it is possible that you have no metamerism at all?  I 
thought the slight metamerism on the 2100/2200 was due to an inherent 
ink issue and not something that could be removed by tweaking?  Or is 
it the case that certain inks change color more than others and 
you've created a special ink-recipe that makes these effects cancel 
each other out in different lighting?  

As I write the printer churns out another test page from the GB 
software....  Any information, help or advice given is very 
gratefully received.

Thanks,

  Matthew


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver 
<daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> I've spent some time now creating a curve for PowerRIP that gives 
me 
> totally neutral BW prints on my 2100, good shadow detail and no 
> metamerism whatsoever.
> 
> The results are actually so good I'm not sure where to go from 
here. 
> Maybe some tweaking in the 0-25% area which may or may not be 1-2% 
> too dark.
> 
> I've been using the Epson Gray Balancer reference chart to make 
> comparisons between the chart and printed wedges while making 
> adjustments. The biggest change I had to make was in the 93-100% 
area 
> which all printed black. I now get very good separation in that 
area 
> as well. After making the curve I did a scan of an August Sander 
> photo from a book I got for christmas and made a print with my 
curve 
> to verify. The print is virtually indistinguishable from the book 
in 
> both daylight and indoors lightning.
> 
> If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve available 
so 
> you have something to play around with if you decide to try the 
> program.
> 
> I've never actually had the chance to see a really good BW print 
with 
> any type of inking system so I'm very interested to see how this 
will 
> compare to the other prints in the upcoming exchange.

Mathew, 
I adjusted with the GB and MatteK. I found it necessary to wait a 
very long time for the ink to dry and the color to stabilize. Up to 
24hrs in fact. 
The second point is that insure that you have the Epson driver set 
to "Auto" when you make your test prints. 
Some of the Rip's don't use all the inks when printing B/W, this is 
said to help reduce the metarerism. 

Barry

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "carlislematthew2000 
<carlislematthew@h...>" <carlislematthew@h...> wrote:
> I'm currently in the middle of tweaking my Gray Balancer curves to 
> try and get neutral grays.  It's a pain in the ass and I must have 
> got through about 30 pages of test prints so far!!  I keep 
> adding/removing magenta, adding another control point, re-printing 
> and so on.  I'm getting closer to a good result, but the closer I 
get 
> the harder it is to do that final step.  
> 
> I don't have any PowerRIP, or RIP software, and actually don't 
know 
> much about that stuff.  Am I really missing out?  Am I wasting my 
> time screwing around with GB and printing ICM?
> 
> Also, how it is possible that you have no metamerism at all?  I 
> thought the slight metamerism on the 2100/2200 was due to an 
inherent 
> ink issue and not something that could be removed by tweaking?  Or 
is 
> it the case that certain inks change color more than others and 
> you've created a special ink-recipe that makes these effects 
cancel 
> each other out in different lighting?  
> 
> As I write the printer churns out another test page from the GB 
> software....  Any information, help or advice given is very 
> gratefully received.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>   Matthew
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver 
> <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > I've spent some time now creating a curve for PowerRIP that 
gives 
> me 
> > totally neutral BW prints on my 2100, good shadow detail and no 
> > metamerism whatsoever.
> > 
> > The results are actually so good I'm not sure where to go from 
> here. 
> > Maybe some tweaking in the 0-25% area which may or may not be 1-
2% 
> > too dark.
> > 
> > I've been using the Epson Gray Balancer reference chart to make 
> > comparisons between the chart and printed wedges while making 
> > adjustments. The biggest change I had to make was in the 93-100% 
> area 
> > which all printed black. I now get very good separation in that 
> area 
> > as well. After making the curve I did a scan of an August Sander 
> > photo from a book I got for christmas and made a print with my 
> curve 
> > to verify. The print is virtually indistinguishable from the 
book 
> in 
> > both daylight and indoors lightning.
> > 
> > If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve 
available 

> so 
> > you have something to play around with if you decide to try the 
> > program.
> > 
> > I've never actually had the chance to see a really good BW print 
> with 
> > any type of inking system so I'm very interested to see how this 
> will 
> > compare to the other prints in the upcoming exchange.

Barry,

I didn't realize it took that long for the inks to stablize.  I've 
only been waiting 30 minutes or so before taking a real close look at 
the gray scales.  I have found that they don't really vary that much 
over time though, which I guess could be a result of my curve being 
so far off that I don't even notice the color shift.  :)

Thanks for the advice - much appreciated.

  Matthew

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "flyfishingusa2002 
<tflyfish@c...>" <tflyfish@c...> wrote:
> Mathew, 
> I adjusted with the GB and MatteK. I found it necessary to wait a 
> very long time for the ink to dry and the color to stabilize. Up to 
> 24hrs in fact. 
> The second point is that insure that you have the Epson driver set 
> to "Auto" when you make your test prints. 
> Some of the Rip's don't use all the inks when printing B/W, this is 
> said to help reduce the metarerism. 
> 
> Barry
> 
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "carlislematthew2000 
> <carlislematthew@h...>" <carlislematthew@h...> wrote:
> > I'm currently in the middle of tweaking my Gray Balancer curves 
to 
> > try and get neutral grays.  It's a pain in the ass and I must 
have 
> > got through about 30 pages of test prints so far!!  I keep 
> > adding/removing magenta, adding another control point, re-
printing 
> > and so on.  I'm getting closer to a good result, but the closer I 
> get 
> > the harder it is to do that final step.  
> > 
> > I don't have any PowerRIP, or RIP software, and actually don't 
> know 
> > much about that stuff.  Am I really missing out?  Am I wasting my 
> > time screwing around with GB and printing ICM?
> > 
> > Also, how it is possible that you have no metamerism at all?  I 
> > thought the slight metamerism on the 2100/2200 was due to an 
> inherent 
> > ink issue and not something that could be removed by tweaking?  
Or 
> is 
> > it the case that certain inks change color more than others and 
> > you've created a special ink-recipe that makes these effects 
> cancel 
> > each other out in different lighting?  
> > 
> > As I write the printer churns out another test page from the GB 
> > software....  Any information, help or advice given is very 
> > gratefully received.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> >   Matthew
> > 
> > 
> > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver 
> > <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > > I've spent some time now creating a curve for PowerRIP that 
> gives 
> > me 
> > > totally neutral BW prints on my 2100, good shadow detail and no 
> > > metamerism whatsoever.
> > > 
> > > The results are actually so good I'm not sure where to go from 
> > here. 
> > > Maybe some tweaking in the 0-25% area which may or may not be 1-
> 2% 
> > > too dark.
> > > 
> > > I've been using the Epson Gray Balancer reference chart to make 
> > > comparisons between the chart and printed wedges while making 
> > > adjustments. The biggest change I had to make was in the 93-
100% 
> > area 
> > > which all printed black. I now get very good separation in that 
> > area 
> > > as well. After making the curve I did a scan of an August 
Sander 
> > > photo from a book I got for christmas and made a print with my 
> > curve 
> > > to verify. The print is virtually indistinguishable from the 
> book 
> > in 
> > > both daylight and indoors lightning.
> > > 
> > > If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve 
> available 
> > so 
> > > you have something to play around with if you decide to try the 
> > > program.
> > > 
> > > I've never actually had the chance to see a really good BW 
print 
> > with 
> > > any type of inking system so I'm very interested to see how 
this 
> > will 
> > > compare to the other prints in the upcoming exchange.

I went through the same process myself, but I was never able to get 
really good results from the Gray Balancer. Even if the print looked 
neutral in one light, the print still had the wrong colors in another.

The best result I got before trying PowerRIP was a custom curve I 
made in Photoshop combined with the Lepp profile. It looked pretty 
good in indoors lightning, but green in daylight of course.

iProof have a free demo on their site, www.iproofsystems.com, it 
prints a watermark at the centre of the page, but otherwise works 
fine. 

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "carlislematthew2000 
<carlislematthew@h...>" <carlislematthew@h...> wrote:
> I'm currently in the middle of tweaking my Gray Balancer curves to 
> try and get neutral grays.  It's a pain in the ass and I must have 
> got through about 30 pages of test prints so far!!  I keep 
> adding/removing magenta, adding another control point, re-printing 
> and so on.  I'm getting closer to a good result, but the closer I 
get 
> the harder it is to do that final step.  
> 
> I don't have any PowerRIP, or RIP software, and actually don't know 
> much about that stuff.  Am I really missing out?  Am I wasting my 
> time screwing around with GB and printing ICM?
> 
> Also, how it is possible that you have no metamerism at all?  I 
> thought the slight metamerism on the 2100/2200 was due to an 
inherent 
> ink issue and not something that could be removed by tweaking?  Or 
is 
> it the case that certain inks change color more than others and 
> you've created a special ink-recipe that makes these effects cancel 
> each other out in different lighting?  
> 
> As I write the printer churns out another test page from the GB 
> software....  Any information, help or advice given is very 
> gratefully received.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>   Matthew
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver 
> <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > I've spent some time now creating a curve for PowerRIP that gives 
> me 
> > totally neutral BW prints on my 2100, good shadow detail and no 
> > metamerism whatsoever.
> > 
> > The results are actually so good I'm not sure where to go from 
> here. 
> > Maybe some tweaking in the 0-25% area which may or may not be 1-
2% 

> > too dark.
> > 
> > I've been using the Epson Gray Balancer reference chart to make 
> > comparisons between the chart and printed wedges while making 
> > adjustments. The biggest change I had to make was in the 93-100% 
> area 
> > which all printed black. I now get very good separation in that 
> area 
> > as well. After making the curve I did a scan of an August Sander 
> > photo from a book I got for christmas and made a print with my 
> curve 
> > to verify. The print is virtually indistinguishable from the book 
> in 
> > both daylight and indoors lightning.
> > 
> > If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve available 
> so 
> > you have something to play around with if you decide to try the 
> > program.
> > 
> > I've never actually had the chance to see a really good BW print 
> with 
> > any type of inking system so I'm very interested to see how this 
> will 
> > compare to the other prints in the upcoming exchange.

Hello,
Yes I also have spend weeks and a box off 50 A4 sheets to get neutral 
results with GB but was not very successful because of the fact that 
under every other lighting the color shifts in to olive or magenta.( 
matarism) Good for Epson paper sales but not good for my purse!;-)I 
have downloaded the powerRip 2000 and just have done my first B&W 
test.
It looks much better so far. I only see a very small cast of yellow ( 
the water mark looks a bit gold)I printed on AM with color controls 
on. No ICC so far. Daniel could you make your RIP curve available to 
the group? And advise on your tests would be welcome. I wil do when I 
have done more testing. I wonder how your configuration looks like to 
print GrayScale with the Black and light gray together

Henk


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver 
<daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> I went through the same process myself, but I was never able to get 
> really good results from the Gray Balancer. Even if the print 
looked 
> neutral in one light, the print still had the wrong colors in 
another.
> 
> The best result I got before trying PowerRIP was a custom curve I 
> made in Photoshop combined with the Lepp profile. It looked pretty 
> good in indoors lightning, but green in daylight of course.
> 
> iProof have a free demo on their site, www.iproofsystems.com, it 
> prints a watermark at the centre of the page, but otherwise works 
> fine. 
> 
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "carlislematthew2000 
> <carlislematthew@h...>" <carlislematthew@h...> wrote:
> > I'm currently in the middle of tweaking my Gray Balancer curves 
to 
> > try and get neutral grays.  It's a pain in the ass and I must 
have 
> > got through about 30 pages of test prints so far!!  I keep 
> > adding/removing magenta, adding another control point, re-
printing 
> > and so on.  I'm getting closer to a good result, but the closer I 
> get 
> > the harder it is to do that final step.  
> > 
> > I don't have any PowerRIP, or RIP software, and actually don't 
know 
> > much about that stuff.  Am I really missing out?  Am I wasting my 
> > time screwing around with GB and printing ICM?
> > 
> > Also, how it is possible that you have no metamerism at all?  I 
> > thought the slight metamerism on the 2100/2200 was due to an 
> inherent 
> > ink issue and not something that could be removed by tweaking?  
Or 
> is 
> > it the case that certain inks change color more than others and 
> > you've created a special ink-recipe that makes these effects 
cancel 
> > each other out in different lighting?  
> > 
> > As I write the printer churns out another test page from the GB 
> > software....  Any information, help or advice given is very 
> > gratefully received.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> >   Matthew
> > 
> > 
> > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver 
> > <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > > I've spent some time now creating a curve for PowerRIP that 
gives 
> > me 
> > > totally neutral BW prints on my 2100, good shadow detail and no 
> > > metamerism whatsoever.
> > > 
> > > The results are actually so good I'm not sure where to go from 
> > here. 
> > > Maybe some tweaking in the 0-25% area which may or may not be 1-
> 2% 
> > > too dark.
> > > 
> > > I've been using the Epson Gray Balancer reference chart to make 
> > > comparisons between the chart and printed wedges while making 
> > > adjustments. The biggest change I had to make was in the 93-
100% 
> > area 
> > > which all printed black. I now get very good separation in that 
> > area 
> > > as well. After making the curve I did a scan of an August 
Sander 
> > > photo from a book I got for christmas and made a print with my 
> > curve 
> > > to verify. The print is virtually indistinguishable from the 
book 
> > in 
> > > both daylight and indoors lightning.
> > > 
> > > If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve 
available 
> > so 
> > > you have something to play around with if you decide to try the 
> > > program.
> > > 
> > > I've never actually had the chance to see a really good BW 
print 
> > with 
> > > any type of inking system so I'm very interested to see how 
this 
> > will 
> > > compare to the other prints in the upcoming exchange.

I don't see Epson's 9600 on the list of printers. Those anybody know if
iProof supports the 9600?

> I went through the same process myself, but I was never able to get
> really good results from the Gray Balancer. Even if the print looked
> neutral in one light, the print still had the wrong colors in another.
> 
> The best result I got before trying PowerRIP was a custom curve I
> made in Photoshop combined with the Lepp profile. It looked pretty
> good in indoors lightning, but green in daylight of course.
> 
> iProof have a free demo on their site, www.iproofsystems.com, it
> prints a watermark at the centre of the page, but otherwise works
> fine. 
> 
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "carlislematthew2000
> <carlislematthew@h...>" <carlislematthew@h...> wrote:
>> I'm currently in the middle of tweaking my Gray Balancer curves to
>> try and get neutral grays.  It's a pain in the ass and I must have
>> got through about 30 pages of test prints so far!!  I keep
>> adding/removing magenta, adding another control point, re-printing
>> and so on.  I'm getting closer to a good result, but the closer I
> get 
>> the harder it is to do that final step.
>> 
>> I don't have any PowerRIP, or RIP software, and actually don't know
>> much about that stuff.  Am I really missing out?  Am I wasting my
>> time screwing around with GB and printing ICM?
>> 
>> Also, how it is possible that you have no metamerism at all?  I
>> thought the slight metamerism on the 2100/2200 was due to an
> inherent 
>> ink issue and not something that could be removed by tweaking?  Or
> is 
>> it the case that certain inks change color more than others and
>> you've created a special ink-recipe that makes these effects cancel
>> each other out in different lighting?
>> 
>> As I write the printer churns out another test page from the GB
>> software....  Any information, help or advice given is very
>> gratefully received.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>>   Matthew
>> 
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver
>> <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
>>> I've spent some time now creating a curve for PowerRIP that gives
>> me 
>>> totally neutral BW prints on my 2100, good shadow detail and no
>>> metamerism whatsoever.
>>> 
>>> The results are actually so good I'm not sure where to go from
>> here. 
>>> Maybe some tweaking in the 0-25% area which may or may not be 1-
> 2% 
>>> too dark.
>>> 
>>> I've been using the Epson Gray Balancer reference chart to make
>>> comparisons between the chart and printed wedges while making
>>> adjustments. The biggest change I had to make was in the 93-100%
>> area 
>>> which all printed black. I now get very good separation in that
>> area 
>>> as well. After making the curve I did a scan of an August Sander
>>> photo from a book I got for christmas and made a print with my
>> curve 
>>> to verify. The print is virtually indistinguishable from the book
>> in 
>>> both daylight and indoors lightning.
>>> 
>>> If anyone is interested I'm sure I could make the curve available
>> so 
>>> you have something to play around with if you decide to try the
>>> program.
>>> 
>>> I've never actually had the chance to see a really good BW print
>> with 
>>> any type of inking system so I'm very interested to see how this
>> will 
>>> compare to the other prints in the upcoming exchange.
> 
> 
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