Digital BW, The Print

Tom,

You wrote:

>... could you list a ranking of the black inks
>you have tested in order of their density?

I don't have a readily-available list.  Also, it depends on the paper used.
But, I'll throw out a few thoughts on the inks that come to mind -- and I'm
working form memory.

Excluding the dye inks (Epson then MIS) and the post-coating effects, the
winner is Epson Archival black on Ilford RC paper (the Smooth Pearl is a
winner.)  That said, I think the matte look is better in most circumstances.

For the more normal EAM/EEM the order would be Media Street enhanced K (I
don't know if MIS has an equivalent) as the darkest of the "mostly pigment"
inks.  However, it's only for those who don't care much about fading and
warming.

For EAM/EEM the new high-load, all-pigment inks look to be the best.  Epson
UltraChrome matte black is tops on EEM according to the densitometer, but I
think PiezoTone Museum looks deeper due to it's cooler tone.  (MIS may have
an equivalent, but the fade testing isn't done yet.)  Also, UC Matte black
doesn't do all that well on non-EEM papers.  I have not done enough testing
to know if the Museum black falls on other papers also.

Frankly, MIS VM/FS K on PhotoRag is hard to beat as a combination of depth
of black, lightfastness and ink expense (but the paper is too expensive).

>Also, could you do the same in terms of lightfastness?

Again, I don't really have a list and paper matters.

The UC matte black is the best I've tested, but I think Epson Archival black
is the best in the real world.  The simple light-box testers dry the inks
and eliminate the advantages of the Epson Archival coating.  But in the real
world that coating is probably very important.

The Museum K and MIS equivalent are in the tester now.

After the above inks, the VM/FS black is the best.  It may have some dye in
it, but with the co-solvent pushing the dye around the pigment clumps, it
tests closer to a pure pigment ink than any of the other older black inks.

Media Street enhanced K (25% dye) is fairly far down the list, but not bad
given the amount of dye it has.  For some the greater impact is worth it.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks, Paul, for the information. At the Media Street website they 
state that their Enhanced Generations Black is rated by Wilhelm 
beyond 100 years before noticeable fading occurs. That sounds 
impressive. Any comments?

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >... could you list a ranking of the black inks
> >you have tested in order of their density?
> 
> I don't have a readily-available list.  Also, it depends on the 
paper used.
> But, I'll throw out a few thoughts on the inks that come to mind -- 
and I'm
> working form memory.
> 
> Excluding the dye inks (Epson then MIS) and the post-coating 
effects, the
> winner is Epson Archival black on Ilford RC paper (the Smooth Pearl 
is a
> winner.)  That said, I think the matte look is better in most 
circumstances.
> 
> For the more normal EAM/EEM the order would be Media Street 
enhanced K (I
> don't know if MIS has an equivalent) as the darkest of the "mostly 
pigment"
> inks.  However, it's only for those who don't care much about 
fading and
> warming.
> 
> For EAM/EEM the new high-load, all-pigment inks look to be the 
best.  Epson
> UltraChrome matte black is tops on EEM according to the 
densitometer, but I
> think PiezoTone Museum looks deeper due to it's cooler tone.  (MIS 
may have
> an equivalent, but the fade testing isn't done yet.)  Also, UC 
Matte black
> doesn't do all that well on non-EEM papers.  I have not done enough 
testing
> to know if the Museum black falls on other papers also.
> 
> Frankly, MIS VM/FS K on PhotoRag is hard to beat as a combination 
of depth
> of black, lightfastness and ink expense (but the paper is too 
expensive).
> 
> >Also, could you do the same in terms of lightfastness?
> 
> Again, I don't really have a list and paper matters.
> 
> The UC matte black is the best I've tested, but I think Epson 
Archival black
> is the best in the real world.  The simple light-box testers dry 
the inks
> and eliminate the advantages of the Epson Archival coating.  But in 
the real
> world that coating is probably very important.
> 
> The Museum K and MIS equivalent are in the tester now.
> 
> After the above inks, the VM/FS black is the best.  It may have 
some dye in
> it, but with the co-solvent pushing the dye around the pigment 
clumps, it
> tests closer to a pure pigment ink than any of the other older 
black inks.
> 
> Media Street enhanced K (25% dye) is fairly far down the list, but 
not bad
> given the amount of dye it has.  For some the greater impact is 
worth it.

> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

>... At the Media Street website they
>state that their Enhanced Generations Black is rated by Wilhelm
>beyond 100 years before noticeable fading occurs. That sounds
>impressive. Any comments?

In my testing the Media Street Enhanced Gen Black is not nearly as lightfast
as the black inks in inksets that have been rated at 100+ years.  That is,
the UltraChrome Matte black and the Epson Archival black, which are in
inksets that Wilhelm rates up in the 100+ (for B&W only for the UC), perform
far better than the Gen 4 Enhanced (with 25% dye, I believe) black I've
tested.

Now, it may be that Wilhelm tests the color inksets at, for example, 50%
density, so that there is simply no significant black ink present.  If that
is the case, then the test would be of the color pigments, not the black
ink.  (Of course, I don't think third-party color pigments are as long-lived
as UltraChrome color pigments either, and the color UltraChromes don't make
the 100+ class from what I've seen.)

So, have you really seen *Wilhelm* say Gen Enhanced K is 100+ years?

I'd like to see some substantiation of the 100+ year claim for Gen Enhanced
K.  To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

(PS for Norm -- I spent 25 years as a FTC consumer protection & antitrust
attorney.)

No, I haven't seen a statement to that effect by Wihelm. I'll go to 
their website and look. I'd be interested in learning just what real-
world expectations I can have about the Media Street Enhanced Black, 
since I've just started using it as a replacement in MIS CFS for the 
VM black. BTW, I've had no problems with the mix.

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >... At the Media Street website they
> >state that their Enhanced Generations Black is rated by Wilhelm
> >beyond 100 years before noticeable fading occurs. That sounds
> >impressive. Any comments?
> 
> In my testing the Media Street Enhanced Gen Black is not nearly as 
lightfast
> as the black inks in inksets that have been rated at 100+ years.  
That is,
> the UltraChrome Matte black and the Epson Archival black, which are 
in
> inksets that Wilhelm rates up in the 100+ (for B&W only for the 
UC), perform
> far better than the Gen 4 Enhanced (with 25% dye, I believe) black 
I've
> tested.
> 
> Now, it may be that Wilhelm tests the color inksets at, for 
example, 50%
> density, so that there is simply no significant black ink present.  
If that
> is the case, then the test would be of the color pigments, not the 
black
> ink.  (Of course, I don't think third-party color pigments are as 
long-lived
> as UltraChrome color pigments either, and the color UltraChromes 
don't make
> the 100+ class from what I've seen.)
> 
> So, have you really seen *Wilhelm* say Gen Enhanced K is 100+ years?
> 
> I'd like to see some substantiation of the 100+ year claim for Gen 
Enhanced
> K.  To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> (PS for Norm -- I spent 25 years as a FTC consumer protection & 
antitrust
> attorney.)

Morning, Paul!

are the Ultrachrome Black and Epson Archival Black inks compatible with
the MIS VM inks?  ( Not to mix together, but to use the black ink
interchangeably in a CIS?

Still looking for the best black. I agree with the best combo you
mention, but photorag really is way too expensive for every day use.

Jerry

Paul, I too, have seen media street's claim of +100 years for the
Enhanced Generations 4 Black. I think it is still on their website,
somewhere. Of all the testing that you have done, all the inks, all the
papers, which ones are you 
now using for your best prints? (Deepest blacks, reasonably priced
paper, etc.) Are the Ultrachromes compatible with MIS archival inks? Has
MIS come out with their own version of Ultrachrome inks yet? To use the
2200 printer, you'd have to be able to get third party inks, or it would
just be too expensive to print with that printer.

Epson has officially discontinued the 3000 printer finally! Do you think
they will come out with a replacement?

Jerry






Paul Roark wrote:

> 
> >... At the Media Street website they
> >state that their Enhanced Generations Black is rated by Wilhelm
> >beyond 100 years before noticeable fading occurs. That sounds
> >impressive. Any comments?
> 
> In my testing the Media Street Enhanced Gen Black is not nearly as lightfast
> as the black inks in inksets that have been rated at 100+ years.  That is,
> the UltraChrome Matte black and the Epson Archival black, which are in
> inksets that Wilhelm rates up in the 100+ (for B&W only for the UC), perform
> far better than the Gen 4 Enhanced (with 25% dye, I believe) black I've
> tested.
> 
> Now, it may be that Wilhelm tests the color inksets at, for example, 50%
> density, so that there is simply no significant black ink present.  If that
> is the case, then the test would be of the color pigments, not the black
> ink.  (Of course, I don't think third-party color pigments are as long-lived
> as UltraChrome color pigments either, and the color UltraChromes don't make
> the 100+ class from what I've seen.)
> 
> So, have you really seen *Wilhelm* say Gen Enhanced K is 100+ years?
> 
> I'd like to see some substantiation of the 100+ year claim for Gen Enhanced
> K.  To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> (PS for Norm -- I spent 25 years as a FTC consumer protection & antitrust
> attorney.)
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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Jerry

> ... Are the Ultrachromes compatible with MIS archival inks? Has
> MIS come out with their own version of Ultrachrome inks yet?

I don't have Paul's extensive experience so I can't answer the first 
question.  However, MIS now has Ultrachrome equivalents in bulk.  
Look under Epson bulk inks.

K2

> ... Are the Ultrachromes compatible with MIS archival inks? Has
> MIS come out with their own version of Ultrachrome inks yet?

I'm not 100% sure.  I've never mixed the real UltraChromes with any MIS
inks.  The MIS clone UCs appear to be compatible, but I have not found any
reason to mix the 2 inksets.  The new UC clone inkset as a base for a new VM
(modified with some even better inks) is a winner.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul,

Can the Ultrachrome inks from MIS give as good a black as the enhanced
generations 4 black?  (I'm looking ahead a bit as to what inks I should
get if I get a 2200 Printer.  Am still waiting to see if Epson will have
a 3000 replacement.

Jerry






Paul Roark wrote:

> 
> > ... Are the Ultrachromes compatible with MIS archival inks? Has
> > MIS come out with their own version of Ultrachrome inks yet?
> 
> I'm not 100% sure.  I've never mixed the real UltraChromes with any MIS
> inks.  The MIS clone UCs appear to be compatible, but I have not found any
> reason to mix the 2 inksets.  The new UC clone inkset as a base for a new VM
> (modified with some even better inks) is a winner.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

>Can the Ultrachrome inks from MIS give as good a black as the enhanced
>generations 4 black?

Only on RC paper.

>(I'm looking ahead a bit as to what inks I should
>get if I get a 2200 Printer.

The MIS UC clones have some very good points.  Epson Archival black gets
better dmax on RC paper than the MIS Photo black.  I am going to use the
Epson Archival black, and I think MIS will be selling it in bulk.  They will
by the 10000 Archival black carts and decant them.  I use the Archival K in
the formulas, so they already have it and know I intend to use it until
something better comes along.

> what is a High load matte black?

The big change/advance in the field is not the pigments, but the base.  The
new bases that are available to all -- Epson and MIS -- can hold a more
pigment powder.  For example, Epson Archival K is about 3% pigment.
PiezoTone Museum K is over 6%.  Epson matte black is even higher.

The high load means greater gamut and deeper blacks.  For color, this means
a higher-gamut color pigment inkset.  For B&W, this advance means a deeper
black *without* the need for dye.  So, the high load Museum K and MIS matte
black that I'm now testing exceed the dmax of the VM/FS K on EEM, even
though they (allegedly) have no dye and no co-solvent (a source of trouble).

The high load blacks still cannot reach the depth of Media Street's Enhanced
K, however.  But, if longevity is important, then the high load blacks are
definitely the way to go.  For your uses, Gen Enhanced may still be the best
choice.

>Enhanced gen 4 still the winner of deepest black?

For a "mostly pigment" ink on matte paper I think Gen Enhanced is still the
winner.  But for those who like RC paper, Ilford Smooth Pearl (a nice but
clearly not matte finish) with Archival K is the champ.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

How about mixing & matching these blacks with the MIS VM inkset? Must 
the Archival K (or MIS bulk) be substituted with curve adjustments or 
do you have to go with a whole new inkset?

Chris



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Jerry,
> 
> >Can the Ultrachrome inks from MIS give as good a black as the 
enhanced
> >generations 4 black?
> 
> Only on RC paper.
> 
> >(I'm looking ahead a bit as to what inks I should
> >get if I get a 2200 Printer.
> 
> The MIS UC clones have some very good points.  Epson Archival black 
gets
> better dmax on RC paper than the MIS Photo black.  I am going to 
use the
> Epson Archival black, and I think MIS will be selling it in bulk.  
They will
> by the 10000 Archival black carts and decant them.  I use the 
Archival K in
> the formulas, so they already have it and know I intend to use it 
until
> something better comes along.
> 
> > what is a High load matte black?
> 
> The big change/advance in the field is not the pigments, but the 
base.  The
> new bases that are available to all -- Epson and MIS -- can hold a 
more
> pigment powder.  For example, Epson Archival K is about 3% pigment.
> PiezoTone Museum K is over 6%.  Epson matte black is even higher.
> 
> The high load means greater gamut and deeper blacks.  For color, 
this means
> a higher-gamut color pigment inkset.  For B&W, this advance means a 
deeper
> black *without* the need for dye.  So, the high load Museum K and 
MIS matte
> black that I'm now testing exceed the dmax of the VM/FS K on EEM, 
even
> though they (allegedly) have no dye and no co-solvent (a source of 
trouble).
> 
> The high load blacks still cannot reach the depth of Media Street's 
Enhanced
> K, however.  But, if longevity is important, then the high load 
blacks are
> definitely the way to go.  For your uses, Gen Enhanced may still be 
the best
> choice.
> 
> >Enhanced gen 4 still the winner of deepest black?
> 
> For a "mostly pigment" ink on matte paper I think Gen Enhanced is 
still the
> winner.  But for those who like RC paper, Ilford Smooth Pearl (a 
nice but

> clearly not matte finish) with Archival K is the champ.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul!  I use EAM/EEM most of the time, so your information is very 
useful. I also use Mediastreet Royal plush for large prints.  I think some 
have said it is equivalent to photorag.  The blacks are great on RP. 

I used up my old stock of EAM, and have noticed that newer boxes of EAM/EEM 
have less satisfying blacks.  It seems to be both a slightly lower density, 
and a slightly warmer color.  I recall some discussion about this a while 
back.  Was this a temporary variation in your experience, or does it appear 
we have to live with this from now on?  It doesn't take much density change 
to make a pronounced difference between prints.

This talk about ultrachrome black with the VM inkset is intriguing.  I saw a 
sample print from the 2200 on mat paper.  The blacks looked very good.

Tom Wells
toliwel@...
towells@...
twellsphoto.com

Tom,

>...I used up my old stock of EAM, and have noticed that
>newer boxes of EAM/EEM have less satisfying blacks.
>...lower density, ...  It doesn't take much density change
>to make a pronounced difference between prints.

It looks like the new EEM is here to stay.  The good news is that the
UltraChrome Matte black, Museum black and MIS beta matte black (now in my
fader) get us back up to the old VM/FS standard (with better longevity,
allegedly -- we'll see Thursday).

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Chris wrote:

>How about mixing & matching these blacks with the MIS VM inkset? Must
>the Archival K (or MIS bulk) be substituted with curve adjustments or
>do you have to go with a whole new inkset?

There will be an entirely new inkset -- very lightfast and RC compatible
(with the right black).  With the new vm there will still be the need to
switch blacks for matte or RC -- just like the UltraChromes.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> >Can the Ultrachrome inks from MIS give as good a black as the
enhanced
> >generations 4 black?
>
> Only on RC paper.
>
> >(I'm looking ahead a bit as to what inks I should
> >get if I get a 2200 Printer.
>
> The MIS UC clones have some very good points.  Epson Archival black
gets
> better dmax on RC paper than the MIS Photo black.  I am going to
use the
> Epson Archival black, and I think MIS will be selling it in bulk.
They will
> by the 10000 Archival black carts and decant them.  I use the
Archival K in
> the formulas, so they already have it and know I intend to use it
until
> something better comes along.
>
> > what is a High load matte black?
>
> The big change/advance in the field is not the pigments, but the
base.  The
> new bases that are available to all -- Epson and MIS -- can hold a
more
> pigment powder.  For example, Epson Archival K is about 3% pigment.
> PiezoTone Museum K is over 6%.  Epson matte black is even higher.
>
> The high load means greater gamut and deeper blacks.  For color,
this means
> a higher-gamut color pigment inkset.  For B&W, this advance means a
deeper
> black *without* the need for dye.  So, the high load Museum K and
MIS matte
> black that I'm now testing exceed the dmax of the VM/FS K on EEM,
even
> though they (allegedly) have no dye and no co-solvent (a source of
trouble).
>
> The high load blacks still cannot reach the depth of Media Street's
Enhanced
> K, however.  But, if longevity is important, then the high load
blacks are
> definitely the way to go.  For your uses, Gen Enhanced may still be
the best
> choice.
>
> >Enhanced gen 4 still the winner of deepest black?
>
> For a "mostly pigment" ink on matte paper I think Gen Enhanced is
still the
> winner.  But for those who like RC paper, Ilford Smooth Pearl (a
nice but

> clearly not matte finish) with Archival K is the champ.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

.  The new UC clone inkset as a base for a new VM
> (modified with some even better inks) is a winner.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com


Hi Paul, is this under development do you know?  Is this the basis 
for the new 'RC compatible' set that is due in the next few weeks?

My lines are running dry and I am loathe to buy more bottles until 
the new formulation is out.

Steve.

Thanks Paul,

I guess I'm with Fred Picker. I can't understand why anybody would want
to use that "slimy plastic crap" (Fred's exact words"), referring to RC
based papers. WHY would anyone want their inkjets to look like they were
printed on plastic RC paper when they have so many beautiful papers available?

Jerry

Hello Tom,

>I used up my old stock of EAM, and have noticed that newer boxes
>of EAM/EEM have less satisfying blacks.  

EEM has equally good Dmax but the scale is a bit different.  I found
that by applying a slight Transfer Curve the prints are nearly
identical to EAM.  Here are the curve points:

Set the 10% point to 8%
Set the 90% point to 92%

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

For exactly the same reason as you are so careful in your choice of inks -
blacks! I'm printing on Ilford pearl and it is great. Atkinson of the famous
'Atkinson profiles' says his viewers prefer it - behind glass it is
luscious -go on Jerry try it - you'll love the black! DMaxof 2 - 2.2
anyone??

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question


> Thanks Paul,
>
> I guess I'm with Fred Picker. I can't understand why anybody would want
> to use that "slimy plastic crap" (Fred's exact words"), referring to RC
> based papers. WHY would anyone want their inkjets to look like they were
> printed on plastic RC paper when they have so many beautiful papers
available?
>
> Jerry
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Jerry wrote:

> I guess I'm with Fred Picker.
>I can't understand why anybody would want
> to use that "slimy plastic crap" (Fred's exact words"),
>referring to RC based papers. ...

Julian wrote:

>For exactly the same reason as you are so careful
>in your choice of inks - blacks!
>I'm printing on Ilford pearl and it is great.
>Atkinson of the famous 'Atkinson profiles' says
>his viewers prefer it - behind glass it is luscious
>-go on Jerry try it - you'll love the black!
>DMaxof 2 - 2.2 anyone??

Ilford Smooth Pearl is about the nicest RC paper I've yet used.  I think
Atkinson also uses Epson Semi-matte, which appears to only be available in
rolls.  Have you ever seen any of this paper?

I think I'm probably still a matte type of guy, but I certainly understand
the appeal of the RC papers.  Until I got used to the matte look when I
started inkjet printing with pigments, it just looked flat to me. It didn't
look like the photographs I was used to.

At any rate, there is no reason we shouldn't have the ability to go with
either RC or matte paper, as we choose.  From now on, my inksets will
probably have this capability.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

I've had a couple of prints done on Epson Premium Lustre with UC, but this
side of the pond the Ilford really is dirt cheap. people react to the images
without a questions, as photographs, not inkjets. When given the choice,
everyone I've shown identical images to as preferred the Ilford. Behind
glass the artpaper prints loose the feeling of premium quality and suffer
compared to the greater dmax of art prints.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question


> Jerry wrote:
>
> > I guess I'm with Fred Picker.
> >I can't understand why anybody would want
> > to use that "slimy plastic crap" (Fred's exact words"),
> >referring to RC based papers. ...
>
> Julian wrote:
>
> >For exactly the same reason as you are so careful
> >in your choice of inks - blacks!
> >I'm printing on Ilford pearl and it is great.
> >Atkinson of the famous 'Atkinson profiles' says
> >his viewers prefer it - behind glass it is luscious
> >-go on Jerry try it - you'll love the black!
> >DMaxof 2 - 2.2 anyone??
>
> Ilford Smooth Pearl is about the nicest RC paper I've yet used.  I think
> Atkinson also uses Epson Semi-matte, which appears to only be available in
> rolls.  Have you ever seen any of this paper?
>
> I think I'm probably still a matte type of guy, but I certainly understand
> the appeal of the RC papers.  Until I got used to the matte look when I
> started inkjet printing with pigments, it just looked flat to me. It
didn't
> look like the photographs I was used to.
>
> At any rate, there is no reason we shouldn't have the ability to go with
> either RC or matte paper, as we choose.  From now on, my inksets will
> probably have this capability.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>
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>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Ilford Smooth Pearl is about the nicest RC paper I've yet used.  

Would you venture a guess as to its lightfastness with the UC inkset 
(either Epson's or the upcoming MIS inkset )

Andre

I might like the Blacks Julian, but nothing looks worse to my eyes than
a plasticky RC print.

Jerry



Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> For exactly the same reason as you are so careful in your choice of inks -
> blacks! I'm printing on Ilford pearl and it is great. Atkinson of the famous
> 'Atkinson profiles' says his viewers prefer it - behind glass it is
> luscious -go on Jerry try it - you'll love the black! DMaxof 2 - 2.2
> anyone??
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question
> 
> > Thanks Paul,
> >
> > I guess I'm with Fred Picker. I can't understand why anybody would want
> > to use that "slimy plastic crap" (Fred's exact words"), referring to RC
> > based papers. WHY would anyone want their inkjets to look like they were
> > printed on plastic RC paper when they have so many beautiful papers
> available?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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But Julian, how many of us can afford to frame thousands of prints?

Jerry



Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> I've had a couple of prints done on Epson Premium Lustre with UC, but this
> side of the pond the Ilford really is dirt cheap. people react to the images
> without a questions, as photographs, not inkjets. When given the choice,
> everyone I've shown identical images to as preferred the Ilford. Behind
> glass the artpaper prints loose the feeling of premium quality and suffer
> compared to the greater dmax of art prints.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question
> 
> > Jerry wrote:
> >
> > > I guess I'm with Fred Picker.
> > >I can't understand why anybody would want
> > > to use that "slimy plastic crap" (Fred's exact words"),
> > >referring to RC based papers. ...
> >
> > Julian wrote:
> >
> > >For exactly the same reason as you are so careful
> > >in your choice of inks - blacks!
> > >I'm printing on Ilford pearl and it is great.
> > >Atkinson of the famous 'Atkinson profiles' says
> > >his viewers prefer it - behind glass it is luscious
> > >-go on Jerry try it - you'll love the black!
> > >DMaxof 2 - 2.2 anyone??
> >
> > Ilford Smooth Pearl is about the nicest RC paper I've yet used.  I think
> > Atkinson also uses Epson Semi-matte, which appears to only be available in
> > rolls.  Have you ever seen any of this paper?
> >
> > I think I'm probably still a matte type of guy, but I certainly understand
> > the appeal of the RC papers.  Until I got used to the matte look when I
> > started inkjet printing with pigments, it just looked flat to me. It
> didn't
> > look like the photographs I was used to.
> >
> > At any rate, there is no reason we shouldn't have the ability to go with
> > either RC or matte paper, as we choose.  From now on, my inksets will
> > probably have this capability.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
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> them short.
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> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
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> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Not me! I only frame a sale. I know what you mean about these papers, but I
made a conscious decision that the image on the paper was more important
than the feel. Nothing handles like a heavy fineart paper. But the image on
the Ilford (IMO) is better than on PR. It costs 14 euros (roughly the same
in dollars) for 25sheets of A4 - I've only used the sheets not the rolls and
had no paper problems. I think you are basing your view of RC paper on early
examples. The latest multigrade is a nice paper.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question


> But Julian, how many of us can afford to frame thousands of prints?
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> Julian Thomas wrote:
> >
> > I've had a couple of prints done on Epson Premium Lustre with UC, but
this
> > side of the pond the Ilford really is dirt cheap. people react to the
images
> > without a questions, as photographs, not inkjets. When given the choice,
> > everyone I've shown identical images to as preferred the Ilford. Behind
> > glass the artpaper prints loose the feeling of premium quality and
suffer
> > compared to the greater dmax of art prints.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> > To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question
> >
> > > Jerry wrote:
> > >
> > > > I guess I'm with Fred Picker.
> > > >I can't understand why anybody would want
> > > > to use that "slimy plastic crap" (Fred's exact words"),
> > > >referring to RC based papers. ...
> > >
> > > Julian wrote:
> > >
> > > >For exactly the same reason as you are so careful
> > > >in your choice of inks - blacks!
> > > >I'm printing on Ilford pearl and it is great.
> > > >Atkinson of the famous 'Atkinson profiles' says
> > > >his viewers prefer it - behind glass it is luscious
> > > >-go on Jerry try it - you'll love the black!
> > > >DMaxof 2 - 2.2 anyone??
> > >
> > > Ilford Smooth Pearl is about the nicest RC paper I've yet used.  I
think
> > > Atkinson also uses Epson Semi-matte, which appears to only be
available in
> > > rolls.  Have you ever seen any of this paper?
> > >
> > > I think I'm probably still a matte type of guy, but I certainly
understand
> > > the appeal of the RC papers.  Until I got used to the matte look when
I
> > > started inkjet printing with pigments, it just looked flat to me. It
> > didn't
> > > look like the photographs I was used to.
> > >
> > > At any rate, there is no reason we shouldn't have the ability to go
with
> > > either RC or matte paper, as we choose.  From now on, my inksets will
> > > probably have this capability.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
> > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Julian, I have seen Epson's new paper, photo lustre. Looks like
plasticky R.C. surface to me. Ugly surface, I didn't care for it at all.

Jerry

> Not me! I only frame a sale. I know what you mean about these papers, but I
> made a conscious decision that the image on the paper was more important
> than the feel. Nothing handles like a heavy fineart paper. But the image on
> the Ilford (IMO) is better than on PR. It costs 14 euros (roughly the same
> in dollars) for 25sheets of A4 - I've only used the sheets not the rolls and
> had no paper problems. I think you are basing your view of RC paper on early
> examples. The latest multigrade is a nice paper.
> 
> Julian
>

What did you think of the prints on it? I used to think the same as you as I
loved the feel of PR - but then I gave a customer a choice of a framed
Ilford and a framed PR side by side and they chose the Ilford. They couldn't
handle the prints obviously, but the finished product gives you everything
we want - great blacks, long greyscale etc etc just doesn't handle as well
in the portfolio box! The lustre paper is still glossier than the new
premium semimatte or the Ilford pearl.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question


> Julian, I have seen Epson's new paper, photo lustre. Looks like
> plasticky R.C. surface to me. Ugly surface, I didn't care for it at all.
>
> Jerry
>
> > Not me! I only frame a sale. I know what you mean about these papers,
but I
> > made a conscious decision that the image on the paper was more important
> > than the feel. Nothing handles like a heavy fineart paper. But the image
on
> > the Ilford (IMO) is better than on PR. It costs 14 euros (roughly the
same
> > in dollars) for 25sheets of A4 - I've only used the sheets not the rolls
and
> > had no paper problems. I think you are basing your view of RC paper on
early
> > examples. The latest multigrade is a nice paper.
> >
> > Julian
> >
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I forgot to add in my last email Jerry,
Don't you think it is amazing how far we have come in two years? Before this
list started, we had one inkset, one 'approach', Somerset Velvet 'uncoated'
was the best paper available. Now we have umpteen inks/tones, rips, RGB
workflows, numerous tones to choose from, so many papers, and we can still
discuss what is the 'best' combination of materials. Long may it be so!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question


> What did you think of the prints on it? I used to think the same as you as
I
> loved the feel of PR - but then I gave a customer a choice of a framed
> Ilford and a framed PR side by side and they chose the Ilford. They
couldn't
> handle the prints obviously, but the finished product gives you everything
> we want - great blacks, long greyscale etc etc just doesn't handle as well
> in the portfolio box! The lustre paper is still glossier than the new
> premium semimatte or the Ilford pearl.
>
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question
>
>
> > Julian, I have seen Epson's new paper, photo lustre. Looks like
> > plasticky R.C. surface to me. Ugly surface, I didn't care for it at all.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > > Not me! I only frame a sale. I know what you mean about these papers,
> but I
> > > made a conscious decision that the image on the paper was more
important
> > > than the feel. Nothing handles like a heavy fineart paper. But the
image
> on
> > > the Ilford (IMO) is better than on PR. It costs 14 euros (roughly the
> same
> > > in dollars) for 25sheets of A4 - I've only used the sheets not the
rolls
> and
> > > had no paper problems. I think you are basing your view of RC paper on
> early
> > > examples. The latest multigrade is a nice paper.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
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header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi Julian, Yup, perhaps too many choices.

I'm having a banding problem now, with a sky in a certain file, just in
certain shades of gray, and I've run every cleaning trick I know, get
perfect nozzle checks, etc. Banding happens at 720, 1440, and 2880 DPI.
I cannot see any banding on the monitor, but have spent the last half of
today trying to get rid of it. Only seems to be on this one file, any ideas?

Jerry

> Don't you think it is amazing how far we have come in two years? Before this
> list started, we had one inkset, one 'approach', Somerset Velvet 'uncoated'
> was the best paper available. Now we have umpteen inks/tones, rips, RGB
> workflows, numerous tones to choose from, so many papers, and we can still
> discuss what is the 'best' combination of materials. Long may it be so!
> 
> Julian

Have you tried a purge print - the one that fades gradually - I've found it
useful to check if it is a nozzle problem or  a image problem

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul: Black ink Question


> Hi Julian, Yup, perhaps too many choices.
>
> I'm having a banding problem now, with a sky in a certain file, just in
> certain shades of gray, and I've run every cleaning trick I know, get
> perfect nozzle checks, etc. Banding happens at 720, 1440, and 2880 DPI.
> I cannot see any banding on the monitor, but have spent the last half of
> today trying to get rid of it. Only seems to be on this one file, any
ideas?
>
> Jerry
>
> > Don't you think it is amazing how far we have come in two years? Before
this
> > list started, we had one inkset, one 'approach', Somerset Velvet
'uncoated'
> > was the best paper available. Now we have umpteen inks/tones, rips, RGB
> > workflows, numerous tones to choose from, so many papers, and we can
still
> > discuss what is the 'best' combination of materials. Long may it be so!
> >
> > Julian
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>