Digital BW, The Print

Peter
I am using the 2200 for both color and grayscale. My results with George
Lepp's profiles are very good. My results with Imageprint 5 are spectacular.
Lovely tonal scale, very smooth transitions and minimal (almost not there)
metamerism. I have carried a print to various places (tungsten, OttLite,
fluorescent (most varieties), daylight, etc.
I am really considering IP5 as a part of the 2200 "system."
That said, BIO (black ink only) at both 1440 and 2880 with the Epson driver
is excellent. EEM (with a 15x loupe) shows minimally noticeable dots in
lightest areas. Not visible without that loupe.

----- Original Message -----
From: "peter nelson" <peter@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:39 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] WHEN will we get simple, reliable BW printing??


>
> I recently bought a 2200 because some reviews said it did
> good black and white printing.  But it has so much metamerism
> that the black and white prints it makes are unacceptable.
>
> My darkroom is just a dark corner of the basement and it needs
> major upgrades in plumbing, electricity, and ventilation.
> I was hoping to go all-digital and skip the upgrade but It
> seems I'm still waiting for a simple-off-the-shelf solution
> to digital black and white printing.
>
> I like the 2200 because of its pigment-based inks, wide
> format, 48-mil thick media spec, and flat feed tray.
>
> Reading this forum and Photo.Net I can see people are desperate
> and try a zillion different approaches to black and white ranging
> from black-only to expensive RIPs to profilers to hextone printing.
> Everyone has their special approach and no one method seems
> to be endorsed by more than a few percent of users.
>
> I'm reluctant to go to a hextone system because of all the hassles
> I've heard about with it; the need to maintain TWO big, wide format
> printers, the risk of voiding my extended warranties with third-party
> inks, questions that have been raised here about color stability,
> blackness, and metamerism, and the chip wars between ink
> makers and Epson (Epson makes its money on INKS not printers).
>
> My question is should I upgrade my darkroom and stick with darkroom
> prints for B+W or will we SOON see a straightforward, off
> the shelf solution to digital black-and-white printing?
>
> ---peter
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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>

At 10:48 AM -0500 2/8/03, Shire,Stanley wrote:
>Peter
>I am using the 2200 for both color and grayscale. My results with George
>Lepp's profiles are very good. My results with Imageprint 5 are spectacular.
>Lovely tonal scale, very smooth transitions and minimal (almost not there)
>metamerism. I have carried a print to various places (tungsten, OttLite,
>fluorescent (most varieties), daylight, etc.
>I am really considering IP5 as a part of the 2200 "system."

I've forgotten whether Stan Shire is working with a Mac or a Windows 
platform and am also curious to know whether how users feel about IP5 
depends on which platform they use.


>That said, BIO (black ink only) at both 1440 and 2880 with the Epson driver
>is excellent. EEM (with a 15x loupe) shows minimally noticeable dots in
>lightest areas. Not visible without that loupe.

I'm also curious to know whether this applies only to the 2100/2200 
or instead to 1440/2880 more generally, especially to the 1280 or the 
960.

Thanks.

Sam

Sam McCandless        samcc@...

I recall when I had a very active wet dark room, several different types 
of paper, several different chemicals, different toners, etc. Then there 
were all the tools for dodging and burning. To get a good print from a 
virigin negative it took at least 10 sheets of paper and sometimes two 
or 3 sessons.

I'm not sure there was anything "simple-off-the-shelf" about it.

I settled on a 1280 vs. 2200 since a) I don't do much color and if I 
want to it will be for snapshots so I'll just get a lowcost letter size 
printer for that. It also seems that printing B&W with color inks is a 
mindfield of potential problems and I selected a good printer with good 
B&W support with black and white inks.

I started out with the VM since I do like the ability to be able to 
"tone" my prints to whatever warmth or coolness that goes best with the 
image. There was a bit of a learning curve but I must say, using 
software tools on scanned 4x5 images to produce a final print is much 
easier and effective than all the wet darkroom techniques.

Where I see the biggest area for progress is in the papers and I think 
there will be progress in the future on that front. I would like to see 
a good quality semigloss finish that didn't look different for every 
viewing angle.  But all in all I'm satisified enough that all I use my 
darkroom for is developing negatives.

Truman

peter nelson wrote:

>I recently bought a 2200 because some reviews said it did
>good black and white printing.  But it has so much metamerism
>that the black and white prints it makes are unacceptable.
>
>My darkroom is just a dark corner of the basement and it needs
>major upgrades in plumbing, electricity, and ventilation.
>I was hoping to go all-digital and skip the upgrade but It
>seems I'm still waiting for a simple-off-the-shelf solution
>to digital black and white printing.
>
>I like the 2200 because of its pigment-based inks, wide
>format, 48-mil thick media spec, and flat feed tray.
>
>Reading this forum and Photo.Net I can see people are desperate
>and try a zillion different approaches to black and white ranging
>from black-only to expensive RIPs to profilers to hextone printing.
>Everyone has their special approach and no one method seems
>to be endorsed by more than a few percent of users.
>
>I'm reluctant to go to a hextone system because of all the hassles
>I've heard about with it; the need to maintain TWO big, wide format
>printers, the risk of voiding my extended warranties with third-party
>inks, questions that have been raised here about color stability,
>blackness, and metamerism, and the chip wars between ink
>makers and Epson (Epson makes its money on INKS not printers).
>
>My question is should I upgrade my darkroom and stick with darkroom
>prints for B+W or will we SOON see a straightforward, off
>the shelf solution to digital black-and-white printing?
>
>---peter
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
>
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>
>  
>

Yes, a semigloss with the strenghs of matte without its defects. 
Matte paper is great, but it's not always the best choice for a given 
image. I'd like to see a paper with the surface of traditional glossy 
fiber paper, something that allows for deep blacks, etc. but doesn't 
have the excessive shine of RC gloss.

Chris


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Truman Prevatt 
<tprevatt@m...> wrote:
> Where I see the biggest area for progress is in the papers and I 
think 
> there will be progress in the future on that front. I would like to 
see 
> a good quality semigloss finish that didn't look different for 
every 
> viewing angle.  But all in all I'm satisified enough that all I use 
my 
> darkroom for is developing negatives.

> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- Include your full name with your message.
> >- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> >- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> >- Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >

I'm running Imageprint 5 at home on WinXP Pro and at the college on the
10000 with Win2000.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam A. McCandless [mailto:samcc@...] 
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:46 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] WHEN will we get simple, reliable BW
printing??

At 10:48 AM -0500 2/8/03, Shire,Stanley wrote:
>Peter
>I am using the 2200 for both color and grayscale. My results with
George
>Lepp's profiles are very good. My results with Imageprint 5 are
spectacular.
>Lovely tonal scale, very smooth transitions and minimal (almost not
there)
>metamerism. I have carried a print to various places (tungsten,
OttLite,
>fluorescent (most varieties), daylight, etc.
>I am really considering IP5 as a part of the 2200 "system."

I've forgotten whether Stan Shire is working with a Mac or a Windows 
platform and am also curious to know whether how users feel about IP5 
depends on which platform they use.


>That said, BIO (black ink only) at both 1440 and 2880 with the Epson
driver
>is excellent. EEM (with a 15x loupe) shows minimally noticeable dots in
>lightest areas. Not visible without that loupe.

I'm also curious to know whether this applies only to the 2100/2200 
or instead to 1440/2880 more generally, especially to the 1280 or the 
960.

Thanks.

Sam

Sam McCandless        samcc@...


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Truman Prevatt [mailto:tprevatt@...] 
Snip...
> I settled on a 1280 vs. 2200
Snip...
> and I selected a good printer 
> with good 
> B&W support with black and white inks.

Precisely why I just ordered the 1280 verses the 2200.  I figure if BO
doesn't work out, I can go right into hextone.  And I don't need color
images that last and last - that's what digital labs are for.  But I'd
never trust a lab's process or vision with my B&W work.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

Has any paper manufacturer ever admitted there is a flaking problem with
their coated papers?  Seems like that issue has been along for so long,
surely some of them would address it.

Jerry









Truman Prevatt wrote:

> 
> I recall when I had a very active wet dark room, several different types
> of paper, several different chemicals, different toners, etc. Then there
> were all the tools for dodging and burning. To get a good print from a
> virigin negative it took at least 10 sheets of paper and sometimes two
> or 3 sessons.
> 
> I'm not sure there was anything "simple-off-the-shelf" about it.
> 
> I settled on a 1280 vs. 2200 since a) I don't do much color and if I
> want to it will be for snapshots so I'll just get a lowcost letter size
> printer for that. It also seems that printing B&W with color inks is a
> mindfield of potential problems and I selected a good printer with good
> B&W support with black and white inks.
> 
> I started out with the VM since I do like the ability to be able to
> "tone" my prints to whatever warmth or coolness that goes best with the
> image. There was a bit of a learning curve but I must say, using
> software tools on scanned 4x5 images to produce a final print is much
> easier and effective than all the wet darkroom techniques.
>

In a message dated 2/9/2003 7:18:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
peter@... writes:

> I can get neutral prints with my 2200 using the Epson gray
> balancer. My problem with the 2200 isn't neutrality; it's
> metamerism.  How does the IP RIP fix metamerism,. since
> that's a property of the inks?
> 
> ---peter
> 
There have been several reports that the IP5 rip does not use Yellow ink when 
Printing greyscale images! Hense, greatly reduced metamerism.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sam: my 1280 has BO dots that cannot be seen with the naked eye using
the Epson driver. Exactly the same as using the Woolf workflow or
Roark workflow with appropriate inksets. I only print at 1440 dpi. My
workflow is the same as Clayton's. 

Interesting comment about dot size being related to print head height
adjustment with a 1280 at
<http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004TrJ>  But I
use the 0 setting which is supposed to yeild bigger dots and have no
problems. 

Bob Michaels



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sam A.
McCandless" <samcc@v...> wrote:
> >That said, BIO (black ink only) at both 1440 and 2880 with the
Epson driver

> >is excellent. EEM (with a 15x loupe) shows minimally noticeable dots in
> >lightest areas. Not visible without that loupe.
> 
> I'm also curious to know whether this applies only to the 2100/2200 
> or instead to 1440/2880 more generally, especially to the 1280 or the 
> 960.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sam
> 
> Sam McCandless        samcc@v...

As I anxiously await the arrival of my recently ordered 1280 to replace
my aging 740, I am wondering if anyone can tell me anything about the
quality specifications between the two printers.  I know the 1280 is
rated at 2880 DPI whereas the 740 is only rated at a maximum of 1440
DPI, but other than that I don't know.  I can't find anything written
about the 740 since it's so old.  Do they both have the variable droplet
technology?  What about the picolitre sizes?  Is the driver more
sophisticatedf?  I'm hoping to see an improvement right away just with
BO images, but I hope I'm not disappointed and I don't know what to
expect since I can't really compare the specifications.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

Bob,

I made some tests with my 1290 (same as 1280) and Epson's Premium Glossy
paper to compare the result with my Piezo prints, which I'm making on
another 1290 printer and on Hahnemuhle PR. I printed with 1440 dpi and I had
some visible dots in the 0 - 30 % black area but far from disturbing and
only visible at a very close distance, except for the 0 - 5 % black area,
which was visible also at up to a 18 in distance. The rest of the grayscale
was just a bit "grainy", almost like TRI-X. Nice look. I was quite impressed
by the linearity of the "paper curve". I think that I will use BO on Premium
Glossy paper in the future to achieve that silver grain look. Unfortunately
it's not archival when printed with the 1290. With a 2100 (2200) it would
be. I'm definitely joining the BO club and remain as a member in the Piezo
club as well.

Martin Glader



----- Original Message -----

From: <Bob@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] WHEN will we get simple, reliable BW printing??


> Sam: my 1280 has BO dots that cannot be seen with the naked eye using
> the Epson driver. Exactly the same as using the Woolf workflow or
> Roark workflow with appropriate inksets. I only print at 1440 dpi. My
> workflow is the same as Clayton's.
>
> Interesting comment about dot size being related to print head height
> adjustment with a 1280 at
> <http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004TrJ>  But I
> use the 0 setting which is supposed to yeild bigger dots and have no
> problems.
>
> Bob Michaels

No one so far has commented on the wear out of the black head in BO
printing. With the same amount of square inches printed with the black
nozzles only there must be about 5 times more wear of the head if compared
to printing with 6 colours (greys). It will not mean that the printer is
dead sooner but the quality of the black nozzles will drop earlier than
general quality drop in 6 colour or grey printing.

Ernst

In answer to the thread subject line:

When there's a driver/RIP that has a final linearisation feature that will
compensate all the curves inconsistencies, grey ink overtakes etc. That
could be a "rich grey" profile or just a curve used in a profile. Made with
a densito- or spectrometer on a long grey step wedge.

Ernst

I've converted my 740 to quadtone using the FS Neutral inks.  Works quite well.  There will be no comparison for color work through.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Mathews" <ed@l...> wrote:

> As I anxiously await the arrival of my recently ordered 1280 to replace
> my aging 740, I am wondering if anyone can tell me anything about the
> quality specifications between the two printers.  
> 
> Thanks,
> Ed
> http://lightandsilver.com