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2003-02-20 by dsmithhfx <dsmithhfx@yahoo.com>
http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/018/669/Print%20Permanence%20on% 20Epson%20Papers.pdf I recently purchased HWM to use in my 1270 for 'economy reasons' -- looks like I made the right choice...
2003-02-20 by Paul Roark
HWM is only better for dye inks, not pigmented inks. I see EAM/EEM as the "HWM" for pigments. Paul http://www.PaulRoark.com ________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: dsmithhfx <dsmithhfx@...> [mailto:dsmithhfx@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:17 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] HWM rated more archival than EAM/EEM !?
http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/018/669/Print%20Permanence%20on%
20Epson%20Papers.pdf
I recently purchased HWM to use in my 1270 for 'economy reasons' --
looks like I made the right choice...
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2003-02-21 by Bob_Michaels <Bob@BobMichaels.org>
Paul, as my novice eye cannot discern a difference between HWM and EEM using MIS FSN inks, I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so help me understand the advantage to EEM. Bob Michaels -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote: > HWM is only better for dye inks, not pigmented inks. I see EAM/EEM as the
> "HWM" for pigments. > > Paul > http://www.PaulRoark.com > > ________________________________________ > > -----Original Message----- > From: dsmithhfx <dsmithhfx@y...> [mailto:dsmithhfx@y...] > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:17 AM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] HWM rated more archival than EAM/EEM !? > > > http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/018/669/Print%20Permanence%20on% > 20Epson%20Papers.pdf > > I recently purchased HWM to use in my 1270 for 'economy reasons' -- > looks like I made the right choice...
2003-02-21 by Paul Roark
Bob, I'm not sure of how EEM and HWM compare visually, but the EEM coating is supposed to be more tailored to pigments. HWM is supposedly designed for dye inks. For example, in the Epson compatibility chart, EEM is shown as compatible with UltraChrome, but Heavy Weight Matte is not. See http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/018/673/Ink%20&%20Paper%20Compatibilit y%20Guide.pdf In the testing area, although the EEM is still in testing at Epson or Wilhelm, they are not even bothering to test HWM with the pigmented inks. So, I've just accepted the Epson statements about compatibility with pigments and stuck with those papers that are supposed to be compatible. Paul http://www.PaulRoark.com ______________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob_Michaels <Bob@...> [mailto:Bob@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] HWM rated more archival than EAM/EEM !?
Paul, as my novice eye cannot discern a difference between HWM and EEM
using MIS FSN inks, I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and
availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so
help me understand the advantage to EEM.
Bob Michaels
-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> HWM is only better for dye inks, not pigmented inks. I see EAM/EEM
as the
> "HWM" for pigments.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
> ________________________________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dsmithhfx <dsmithhfx@y...> [mailto:dsmithhfx@y...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:17 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] HWM rated more archival than EAM/EEM !?
>
>
> http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/018/669/Print%20Permanence%20on%
> 20Epson%20Papers.pdf
>
> I recently purchased HWM to use in my 1270 for 'economy reasons' --
> looks like I made the right choice...
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ADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2003-02-21 by Bob_Michaels <Bob@BobMichaels.org>
Paul, actually visually the HWM is slightly brighter than EEM and looks just a bit better to me. Again, that's with MIS FSN inks. Maybe the EEM is supposed to be more archival, don't know. But, my guess is that most think it must be better because it costs more. I just stopped and printed the same image three times consecutively. Once on HWM, once on EEM and once on Photo Rag. Very, very minor differences. (except price) I'll live with them for a day and see if I can find any reason to like one more than the others. Bob Michaels --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote: > Bob, > > I'm not sure of how EEM and HWM compare visually, but the EEM coating is > supposed to be more tailored to pigments. HWM is supposedly designed for > dye inks. For example, in the Epson compatibility chart, EEM is shown as > compatible with UltraChrome, but Heavy Weight Matte is not. See > http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/018/673/Ink%20&%20Paper%20Compatibilit > y%20Guide.pdf > > In the testing area, although the EEM is still in testing at Epson or > Wilhelm, they are not even bothering to test HWM with the pigmented inks. > > So, I've just accepted the Epson statements about compatibility with > pigments and stuck with those papers that are supposed to be compatible. > Paul > http://www.PaulRoark.com > > ______________________________________________ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob_Michaels <Bob@B...> [mailto:Bob@B...] > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:19 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] HWM rated more archival than EAM/EEM !? > > > Paul, as my novice eye cannot discern a difference between HWM and EEM > using MIS FSN inks, I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and > availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so > help me understand the advantage to EEM. > Bob Michaels > > -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" > <paul.roark@v...> wrote: > > HWM is only better for dye inks, not pigmented inks. I see EAM/EEM > as the > > "HWM" for pigments. > > > > Paul > > http://www.PaulRoark.com > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dsmithhfx <dsmithhfx@y...> [mailto:dsmithhfx@y...] > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:17 AM > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Digital BW] HWM rated more archival than EAM/EEM !? > > > > > > http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/018/669/Print%20Permanence%20on% > > 20Epson%20Papers.pdf > > > > I recently purchased HWM to use in my 1270 for 'economy reasons' -- > > looks like I made the right choice... >
2003-02-21 by Jerry Olson
Its thicker and whiter. (EEM that is). J I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and
> availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so > help me understand the advantage to EEM. > Bob Michaels >
2003-02-21 by Bob_Michaels <Bob@BobMichaels.org>
Jerry: HWM is visibly whiter but EEM is marginally thicker. I have to say the brightness of HWM is more noticeable than the thickness of EEM. Bob Michaels --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Its thicker and whiter. (EEM that is). > > J > > I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and > > availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so > > help me understand the advantage to EEM. > > Bob Michaels > >Jer
2003-02-22 by Jerry Olson
Bob, My EEM is whiter than my HWM. But I got the HWM a long long time ago.... Jerry Bob_Michaels wrote:
> Jerry: HWM is visibly whiter but EEM is marginally thicker. I have to > say the brightness of HWM is more noticeable than the thickness of EEM. > Bob Michaels > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson > <jerryolson@r...> wrote: > >>Its thicker and whiter. (EEM that is). >> >>J >> >>I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and >> >>>availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so >>>help me understand the advantage to EEM. >>>Bob Michaels >>>Jer >> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >
2003-02-22 by Bob_Michaels <Bob@BobMichaels.org>
Jerry: So I wonder if it's that my HWM is brighter than your HWM or if my EEM is creamier than your EEM? Maybe the HWM is initially brighter because of added brighteners which degrade over time. That might support the general thinking that the EEM is relatively "more archival" than HWM which is what Paul Roark alluded to. Bob Michaels --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote: > Bob, My EEM is whiter than my HWM. But I got the HWM a long long time > ago.... > > Jerry > > Bob_Michaels wrote: > > Jerry: HWM is visibly whiter but EEM is marginally thicker. I have to > > say the brightness of HWM is more noticeable than the thickness of EEM.
> > Bob Michaels > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson > > <jerryolson@r...> wrote: > > > >>Its thicker and whiter. (EEM that is). > >> > >>J > >> > >>I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and > >> > >>>availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so > >>>help me understand the advantage to EEM. > >>>Bob Michaels
2003-02-22 by Jerry Olson
Hi Bob, I've used a LOT of EAM in the past, now EEM, and the color of the paper was always close, but sometimes a batch was a little creamier color than others. I think maybe I'm picking nits here. Both are probably within manufacturing tolerances. I doubt anyone but a really picky person would notice. Legion's photo matte is still one of the nicest bright white papers, and Photo rag is still probably the best warm paper. As long as I don't print a snow scene on it, The hahnemule papers are tops. Just be sure to rub them down before printing so they don't flake... You'd think Hahnemuhle would have solved this problem by now. Jerry Bob_Michaels wrote:
> Jerry: So I wonder if it's that my HWM is brighter than your HWM or if > my EEM is creamier than your EEM? Maybe the HWM is initially brighter > because of added brighteners which degrade over time. That might > support the general thinking that the EEM is relatively "more > archival" than HWM which is what Paul Roark alluded to. > Bob Michaels > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson > <jerryolson@r...> wrote: > >>Bob, My EEM is whiter than my HWM. But I got the HWM a long long time >>ago.... >> >>Jerry >> >>Bob_Michaels wrote: >> >>>Jerry: HWM is visibly whiter but EEM is marginally thicker. I have to >>>say the brightness of HWM is more noticeable than the thickness of >> > EEM. > >>>Bob Michaels >>> >>>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson >>><jerryolson@r...> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Its thicker and whiter. (EEM that is). >>>> >>>>J >>>> >>>>I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and >>>> >>>> >>>>>availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so >>>>>help me understand the advantage to EEM. >>>>>Bob Michaels >>>> > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >
2003-02-22 by Bob_Michaels <bob@bobmichaels.org>
Jerry: not only can I not see a quality difference between HWM & EEM but the exhalted Photo Rag doesn't look any better to my eye. I print the same image consecutively on all three papers and I just can't say HPR looks any better. All three differ, oh so slightly, but none is better. I even printed HPR on the other side just to make sure I wasn't using the back side. I had it right the first time. I still try be objective and open minded plus continuing to learn. In that regard, I will say that my hextone prints (Woolf workflow) are now looking better than my Black Only. That wasn't the case last month. Who knows, maybe in the future my prints on big $ HPR will look better than on cheaper paper. I'm still open to ideas. Bob Michaels --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote: > Hi Bob, > > I've used a LOT of EAM in the past, now EEM, and the color of the paper > was always close, but sometimes a > batch was a little creamier color than others. I think maybe I'm picking > nits here. Both are probably > within manufacturing tolerances. I doubt anyone but a really picky > person would notice. Legion's photo matte is > still one of the nicest bright white papers, and Photo rag is still > probably the best warm paper. As long as I > don't print a snow scene on it, The hahnemule papers are tops. Just be > sure to rub them down before printing so they > don't flake... You'd think Hahnemuhle would have solved this problem by now.
> > Jerry > > > > Bob_Michaels wrote: > > Jerry: So I wonder if it's that my HWM is brighter than your HWM or if > > my EEM is creamier than your EEM? Maybe the HWM is initially brighter > > because of added brighteners which degrade over time. That might > > support the general thinking that the EEM is relatively "more > > archival" than HWM which is what Paul Roark alluded to. > > Bob Michaels > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson > > <jerryolson@r...> wrote: > > > >>Bob, My EEM is whiter than my HWM. But I got the HWM a long long time > >>ago.... > >> > >>Jerry > >> > >>Bob_Michaels wrote: > >> > >>>Jerry: HWM is visibly whiter but EEM is marginally thicker. I have to > >>>say the brightness of HWM is more noticeable than the thickness of > >> > > EEM. > > > >>>Bob Michaels > >>> > >>>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson > >>><jerryolson@r...> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Its thicker and whiter. (EEM that is). > >>>> > >>>>J > >>>> > >>>>I've sort of settled on HWM because of price and > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>availability. But I have a lot of respect for your sage advice, so > >>>>>help me understand the advantage to EEM. > >>>>>Bob Michaels
2003-02-24 by Sue Tallon
on 2/22/03 8:37 AM, Jerry Olson at jerryolson@... wrote: > > The hahnemule papers are tops. Just be > sure to rub them down before printing so they > don't flake... You'd think Hahnemuhle would have solved this problem by now. > > Jerry What do you mean by rubbing them down? Sue Sue Tallon Photography [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2003-02-24 by Carolyn Frayn
>> Sue wrote: > > What do you mean by rubbing them down? Jerry and some others rub their hahnemuhle papers prior to printing with cotton. I and others use a drafting brush and give it a good brushing to remove possible flaking problems. I've tried the rubbing, once you rub, take the paper to the light, and tell me if you don't see burnishing... a definite difference in the surface and sheen. That's why I don't rub... but this is an ongoing difference of opinion eh Jerry? ;) Carolyn
2003-02-24 by Jerry Olson
Take a soft cotton cloth, or negative cleaning cloth and rub the printing side of the paper quite hard before you print on it. Otherwise, the papers will probably have flaking problems. Soon it will look like your print really needs spotting. Happens most noticeably in black areas. Impossible to spot without showing. Jerry Sue Tallon wrote:
> > on 2/22/03 8:37 AM, Jerry Olson at jerryolson@... wrote: > > > > The hahnemule papers are tops. Just be > > sure to rub them down before printing so they > > don't flake... You'd think Hahnemuhle would have solved this problem by now. > > > > Jerry > > What do you mean by rubbing them down? > Sue > > Sue Tallon Photography > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
2003-02-24 by Jerry Olson
Carolyn, which papers do you see burnishing on? Jerry I'll try it under really bright light. Carolyn Frayn wrote:
> > >> > > Sue wrote: > > > > What do you mean by rubbing them down? > > Jerry and some others rub their hahnemuhle papers prior to printing > with cotton. I and others use a drafting brush and give it a good > brushing to remove possible flaking problems. I've tried the rubbing, > once you rub, take the paper to the light, and tell me if you don't see > burnishing... a definite difference in the surface and sheen. That's > why I don't rub... but this is an ongoing difference of opinion eh > Jerry? ;) > > Carolyn > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
2003-02-24 by Jerry Olson
Forgot to ask, does the brushing really stop the flaking? Jerry Carolyn Frayn wrote:
> > >> > > Sue wrote: > > > > What do you mean by rubbing them down? > > Jerry and some others rub their hahnemuhle papers prior to printing > with cotton. I and others use a drafting brush and give it a good > brushing to remove possible flaking problems. I've tried the rubbing, > once you rub, take the paper to the light, and tell me if you don't see > burnishing... a definite difference in the surface and sheen. That's > why I don't rub... but this is an ongoing difference of opinion eh > Jerry? ;) > > Carolyn > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
2003-02-25 by Carolyn Frayn
> Carolyn, which papers do you see burnishing on? Well's River (William Turner) and German Etching. Especially WT. > > Jerry > > I'll try it under really bright light. ;)... hold the paper at an angle to that light, have an area you haven't rubbed so you can compare... I'm very curious, as I haven't had any luck with the rubbing, without that effect. Carolyn
2003-02-25 by Carolyn Frayn
Yes. For me, and the prints I have of Tyler's on WR show no sign of it, and he brushes ... you have one of my well's river prints, did it flake? ack, don't tell me. ;) Carolyn
> Forgot to ask, does the brushing really stop the flaking? > > Jerry > >
2003-02-25 by Jerry Olson
Carolyn, I just rubbed a sheet of William turner paper and made a print. I can see no burnishing marks at all It looked just fine. I then rubbed an old print from my first piezo days. The paper was Wells River, which I believe is Jon Cone's name for lightweight William Turner. About 200 flakes came off and so there are about 200 white areas all over the print. I hadn't rubbed this paper down before I printed on it. I didn't know that doing so would elimanate a lot of the flaking problems back then. So even today, this very expensive paper has a very serious problem with potential flaking. I didn't rub the print all that hard. Who's to say that in a few years time the prints on this paper won't start flaking all by themselves? I do remember when I first got into digital printing, I sent for some sample prints from Lyson. They send a model printed on about 8 different papers. Every single one of them had a huge number of white flakes all over the prints. I couldn't understand why they would have ever sent them out as samples. I just took another look at them, and they are truly a mess. Thousands of little white areas all over the prints, and they have just been setting in a drawer since I got them, about 7 years ago. These Lyson Papers were in fact Hahnemuhle papers. By now, you would think that hahnemuhle would have had so many complaints they would have fixed this problem. Jerry Carolyn Frayn wrote:
> > > Carolyn, which papers do you see burnishing on? > > Well's River (William Turner) and German Etching. Especially WT. > > > > > Jerry > > > > I'll try it under really bright light. > > ;)... hold the paper at an angle to that light, have an area you > haven't rubbed so you can compare... I'm very curious, as I haven't had > any luck with the rubbing, without that effect. > > Carolyn > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/