Digital BW, The Print

> 
> I received a sampler pack of Perma Jet papers from MIS and tried a
> print on Portrait Classic.  According to the MIS website the Permajet
> papers have a Hahnem\ufffdhle base with a Perma Jet coating.  I use MIS VM
> inks with the Roark curves on my 1200.  The Portrait Classic printed
> well without adjustment -- at least to my eyes -- and appears to have
> the luminance of Hahnem\ufffdhle Rag, but seems a bit smoother.  The
> downside is the cost -- MIS sells it for $50 for 25 sheets which is
> much more expensive than Hahnem\ufffdhle Rag.  It is a thicker paper and I
> liked the result, but unless someone knows something about the
> coating that I do not, it does not seem to be worth the extra expense
> vis Rag, much less EAM.
> 
> Steve
> 
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> another reason is that so few people actually make the stuff. Most paper is
> rebranded with a mark up to bear the rebrand. permajet for instance, import
> MIS VM, or used to, and call it variable blax or some such. They need to
> charge enough not only to give them a profit, but also their dealers a
> profit. How many people are selling hahnemuhle papers under different names?
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:11 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Perma Jet Portrait Classic
> 
> 
> 
>>>Can anyone shed some light on WHY are inkjet papers more expensive than
>>>silver based papers, especially now,
>>>when all the Research and development must be paid off?
>>>
>>>Jer
>>
>>The Free Market economy... charge what the market will bear  :-)
>>
>>
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From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Perma Jet Portrait Classic


> Politics and free markets aside, my original question was
whether
> anyone knows of anything in the Perma Jet coating that would
make it
> worth more that the basic H. rag.
>
> Steve

First of all I'm surprised that Hahnemuhle delivers raw substrate
to be coated by another party for sale outside the Hahnemuhle
distribution chain. Hahnemuhle's paper mill couldn't keep up with
demand for their own channels (including the rebranded papers).
I'm told that the mill is the bottleneck in HM's production,
could even be that they buy raw stock from other mills.
There's much more profit in selling inkjet coated paper than in
selling the raw stock. Enough old paper mills in Europe that can
deliver the raw stuff for low prices but not the right coating
(Lana, Magnani, Fabrioni, Schut).

Few coatings rival the quality of the Hahnemuhle coating. It has
its flaws but in general it is the best for image quality.

So I guess it is either a rebranded Hahnemuhle paper or a
substrate from another company but then it should be good news
that the Perma Jet coating is as good as it sounds.

Ernst

From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Perma Jet Portrait Classic


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Perma Jet Portrait Classic
>
>
> > Politics and free markets aside, my original question was
> whether
> > anyone knows of anything in the Perma Jet coating that would
> make it
> > worth more that the basic H. rag.
> >
> > Steve
>
> First of all I'm surprised that Hahnemuhle delivers raw
substrate
> to be coated by another party for sale outside the Hahnemuhle
> distribution chain. Hahnemuhle's paper mill couldn't keep up
with
> demand for their own channels (including the rebranded papers).
> I'm told that the mill is the bottleneck in HM's production,
> could even be that they buy raw stock from other mills.
> There's much more profit in selling inkjet coated paper than in
> selling the raw stock. Enough old paper mills in Europe that
can
> deliver the raw stuff for low prices but not the right coating
> (Lana, Magnani, Fabrioni, Schut).
>
> Few coatings rival the quality of the Hahnemuhle coating. It
has
> its flaws but in general it is the best for image quality.
>
> So I guess it is either a rebranded Hahnemuhle paper or a
> substrate from another company but then it should be good news
> that the Perma Jet coating is as good as it sounds.
>
> Ernst

Reading the MIS description on their site I get the picture:
Hahnemuhle doesn't coat the papers in house, as far as the
information goes it is coated in Switzerland by a firm that coats
for more manufacturers (Sihl among them). The coating itself is
HM's development though. Big paper rolls are returned to Dassel
for confectioning for the Hahnemuhle chain or go directly to
rebranders (USA mainly) for confectioning. MIS describes what
Hahnemuhle does but gives the coating a name.

There's one way to check whether this explanation is BS: print
both papers with the same profiles and settings. If the
difference is small then it still could be a batch difference, if
there's no difference then there's no difference.

Ernst

On 4/16/03 12:41 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Perma Jet Portrait Classic
> 
> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Perma Jet Portrait Classic
>> 
>> 
>>> Politics and free markets aside, my original question was
>> whether
>>> anyone knows of anything in the Perma Jet coating that would
>> make it
>>> worth more that the basic H. rag.
>>> 
>>> Steve
>> 
>> First of all I'm surprised that Hahnemuhle delivers raw
> substrate
>> to be coated by another party for sale outside the Hahnemuhle
>> distribution chain. Hahnemuhle's paper mill couldn't keep up
> with
>> demand for their own channels (including the rebranded papers).
>> I'm told that the mill is the bottleneck in HM's production,
>> could even be that they buy raw stock from other mills.
>> There's much more profit in selling inkjet coated paper than in
>> selling the raw stock. Enough old paper mills in Europe that
> can
>> deliver the raw stuff for low prices but not the right coating
>> (Lana, Magnani, Fabrioni, Schut).
>> 
>> Few coatings rival the quality of the Hahnemuhle coating. It
> has
>> its flaws but in general it is the best for image quality.
>> 
>> So I guess it is either a rebranded Hahnemuhle paper or a
>> substrate from another company but then it should be good news
>> that the Perma Jet coating is as good as it sounds.
>> 
>> Ernst
> 
> Reading the MIS description on their site I get the picture:
> Hahnemuhle doesn't coat the papers in house, as far as the
> information goes it is coated in Switzerland by a firm that coats
> for more manufacturers (Sihl among them). The coating itself is
> HM's development though. Big paper rolls are returned to Dassel
> for confectioning for the Hahnemuhle chain or go directly to
> rebranders (USA mainly) for confectioning. MIS describes what
> Hahnemuhle does but gives the coating a name.
> 
> There's one way to check whether this explanation is BS: print
> both papers with the same profiles and settings. If the
> difference is small then it still could be a batch difference, if
> there's no difference then there's no difference.
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Perma Jet Portrait Classic


> That's a very interesting possibility, Ernest.  It could also
explain why
> Hahnemuhle coating consistency and composition is so different
across so
> many of its different rebrand papers.  This end user wants
> brighteners...this one doesn't...etc. If the end user does have
some say in
> the final coating formulation that could also explain why some
lots of
> Hahnemuhle papers flake terribly while others don't...then
again it could
> also just be poor manufacturering practice and a delicate
formula.  The only
> thing this doesn't explain is the incredible texture
differences in the the
> William Turner papers...but that is presumably wide tolerances
with what the
> paper mill actually accepts with respect to felt wear.
>
> Robert

Robert,

Reading my message again I can't find the reason why you think
the rebranded papers are more or less custom made. If there are
differences I think that's just the batch difference in
Hahnemuhle's production and the coating manufacturer's
production. With possibly one extra variable: raw stock from
different mills. Brightener variation seems to be related to rag
batches. Texture differences (+ more lint) are certainly related
to felt wear or better: lint accumulation on the felt, that was
what Hahnemuhle people told me a Drupa ago. Coating flake is
related to the last I guess.

It is often more economic for rebranders to confection (size
cutting, packaging) the paper themselves or have it done by third
parties in the USA. Big rolls are then shipped from Europe to the
USA. Not all the resellers will do that. Lyson sold the 36" rolls
in the same cartons as HM did, the stickers were removed and
other ones applied, quite visible though.

Ernst