Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

I recently used the new paper on a few photographs.  My comments are 
based on MIS FS inks in the gray position + MediaStreet Generations 
black loaded on a 1280 printer.  My workflow uses the Epson driver.  

I have used only the Infinity smooth 230 gsm, bought from 
InkjetGoodies.com  The paper thickness is rated at 17 +/- 1 mils.  I 
measured it at approximately 15 mils, with occasional readings of 
15.5 mils.  It is whiter than Eclipse Satine Soft White, and warmer 
than PhotoRag and EEM.  It is just a hair creamier than Museo. The 
whitness difference is more apparent in open shade outdoors.

It is the smoothest fine-art paper I have used, but not as smooth as 
EEM.  The paper is gorgeous to hold, less cardboard-like than say the 
PhotoRag 308 gsm or the Museo.  It droops when held horizontal, a 
quality I like very much; I call this property "drap".  Writing on it 
with a pencil, I see less rub-off than PhotoRag and Eclipse papers, 
but not as low as EEM or Museo.

I printed the same image used in the recent Technical Exchange on (1) 
EEM, (2) PhotoRag 308 gsm, (3) William Turner 190 gsm, and (4) Arches 
Infinity smooth 230 gsm.  I use the same adjustment curve for all 
papers in my custom workflow.  All prints were virtually identical.  
So I am guessing that Piezography compatible inks/workflows will work 
with this papers using the PhotoRag profiles.  I have no 
densitometric measurement, but the 100% patch appears the same as for 
PhotoRag.  William Turner has the darkest 100%.

On a real photograph, once again, Infinity was virtually 
indistinguishable from PhotoRag and William Turner (other than the 
surface smoothness.

Verdict:  Infinity is a good addition to our toolkit.  Those few who 
find the mild texture of PhotoRag intrusive will find this paper an 
improvement.  I personally have much fondness for the tooth in 
William Turner.  At equivalent weight, it is more expensive than 
PhotoRag.

Hope you find this useful.  Please let me know if you need more 
information.

Regards.

Shilesh

PS:  It prints superb using OEM color dyes.

I willl agree with all the findings below and will add that I printed
using the piezo inks 
and found it to print very much like the Photo Rag 308 (my standard
paper).  I used 
the arches hot press piezo profile and with that it had a tad bit
less contrast than 
using the photo rag profile.  I love the buttery smooth surface
(maybe i should say it 
feels like kidd leather) and the warm tone.  I used the Piezo carbon
sepia inks and the 
prints look wonderful.  However with that said, I was afraid that I
might like it so 
much that I wouldn't want to use my supply of photo rag but this is
not so.  I find it 
no better than the photo rag---only slightly different.  I will use
both.  I did make the 
mistake of ordering the very heavy wt. and I could hardly get it to
go through my 
1280 printer (only with much difficulty).  I like heavy wt. papers
but think I will order 
the lighter weight next time, at least in the smaller sizes. eleanor
brown


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> I recently used the new paper on a few photographs.  My comments
are 
> based on MIS FS inks in the gray position + MediaStreet Generations 
> black loaded on a 1280 printer.  My workflow uses the Epson driver.
 
> 
> 
> Verdict:  Infinity is a good addition to our toolkit.  Those few
who 

> find the mild texture of PhotoRag intrusive will find this paper an 
> improvement.  I personally have much fondness for the tooth in 
> William Turner.  At equivalent weight, it is more expensive than 
> PhotoRag.
> 
> Hope you find this useful.  Please let me know if you need more 
> information.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> PS:  It prints superb using OEM color dyes.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
but not as low as EEM or Museo.
> 
> I printed the same image used in the recent Technical Exchange on 
(1) 
> EEM, (2) PhotoRag 308 gsm, (3) William Turner 190 gsm, and (4) 
Arches 
> Infinity smooth 230 gsm.  
> On a real photograph, once again, Infinity was virtually 
> indistinguishable from PhotoRag and William Turner (other than the 
> surface smoothness.
> 
Shilesh,
So, how did Arches Infinity compared to EEM ?
Cheers,
Andre

Have there been any flaking problems?  How does the new paper compare to
PhotoRag in this respect?

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Paul,

No flaking.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Have there been any flaking problems?  How does the new paper 
compare to

> PhotoRag in this respect?
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hi all of you
Sorry if this has been up before.
But do I dare, just to clean the CFS bottles with the old MIS WM and 
make a refill with the new one, think it's the 4.3.5 version.
MIS says it takes 4-5 refills to change the ink in the carts.
But how big is the difference in "color" between the old and new inks?
Printing on 1290 using Pauls curves.
Can I expect "solvent" clogging or other problems?

TIA
Hans

BTW anyone who has experience from the 2000P and new WM?
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hedåsgatan 5
SE-412 53 Göteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414

(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)

www.artphotocollection.com

Hans,

I would recommend changing the cartridge part of the CFS.  The gray inks are
slightly warmer, and the entire inkset uses an entirely new base to allow it
to print on RC paper.

The black ink is sensitive to dye ink pollution.  I'm not sure if there is
enough dye in the VM K to trigger the problem, but I would not take a
chance.

I have had no problems with the new inkset.  There were some initial
problems with a mistake in mixing, defective CIS carts, and, apparently, dye
ink pollution.  Those are the only patterns I've seen.  There have been a
few questions come up that don't fit any pattern.  So, it's still early in
the inkset's usage, and I think MIS is appropriately covering itself by
being cautious.  To me, it's a big improvement, however.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
___________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Nohlberg [mailto:chiahans@...]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:59 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Compability old/new MIS WM


Hi all of you
Sorry if this has been up before.
But do I dare, just to clean the CFS bottles with the old MIS WM and
make a refill with the new one, think it's the 4.3.5 version.
MIS says it takes 4-5 refills to change the ink in the carts.
But how big is the difference in "color" between the old and new inks?
Printing on 1290 using Pauls curves.
Can I expect "solvent" clogging or other problems?

TIA
Hans

BTW anyone who has experience from the 2000P and new WM?
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-L\ufffdfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hed\ufffdsgatan 5
SE-412 53 G\ufffdteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414

(Bes\ufffdk/visit Hed\ufffdsgatan 6)

www.artphotocollection.com


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Paul,

"Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> The black ink is sensitive to dye ink pollution.  I'm not sure if 
there is
> enough dye in the VM K to trigger the problem, but I would not take 
a
> chance.


I am about to use MIS VM inks on new printer and was wondering if I 
should directly use cartridges with MIS VM or first go with Epson OEM 
cartridges? Some people suggested to first use Epson ones to get rid 
of conservation in printer and verify if everything with printer is 
ok. I am going to use only cartridges no CFS on epson 890.

What is your opinion?
Thanks you

-richo-
http://piskoftak.sk/

> I would recommend changing the cartridge part of the CFS.  The
gray inks are
> slightly warmer, and the entire inkset uses an entirely new
base to allow it
> to print on RC paper.
>
> The black ink is sensitive to dye ink pollution.  I'm not sure
if there is
> enough dye in the VM K to trigger the problem, but I would not
take a
> chance.
>
> I have had no problems with the new inkset.  There were some
initial
> problems with a mistake in mixing, defective CIS carts, and,
apparently, dye
> ink pollution.  Those are the only patterns I've seen.  There
have been a
> few questions come up that don't fit any pattern.  So, it's
still early in
> the inkset's usage, and I think MIS is appropriately covering
itself by
> being cautious.  To me, it's a big improvement, however.

Paul,

Yesterday, two weeks after loading them I had some severe
clogging problems with the Ultratone in the 9000. Despite the
fact that I had done a very thorough cleaning process to get all
dye out. Not sure about one damper I replaced that one but
couldn't get all the nozzles running right.
Gave up yesterday evening as I know it sometimes gets better with
a night rest (for me and the printer). This morning all was right
without any extra cleaning needed. Printed a Photo Rag sheet with
a digital reconstruction of a piece of conceptual art (text and
lines in black with all the imperfections of that 70's artist
product reproduced but without the coffeee stains)  for the
modern art museum in town. They were wild about the quality. For
that kind of work you need greys as well as a kind of
antialiasing in the text and lines + the tonal gradation of the
blacks that was in that imperfect original. Started with half a
GB 24 bits colour scan and ended with a 30 MB greyscale file. Two
days work in total to get all the dirt out etc. Not the usual
purpose of quad printing so I thought I would mention it.

Ernst

Richo,

>"Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>
>> The black ink is sensitive to dye ink pollution.
>>I'm not sure if there is enough dye in the VM K
>>to trigger the problem, but I would not take a chance.


>I am about to use MIS VM inks on new printer and was
>wondering if I should directly use cartridges with
>MIS VM or first go with Epson OEM cartridges?
>Some people suggested to first use Epson ones to
>get rid of conservation in printer and verify if
>everything with printer is ok. I am going to use
>only cartridges no CFS on epson 890.

I've also heard that new Epson printers have some type of fluid in the heads
to preserve them that may not clean out as well with non-Epson inks.  Also,
making sure the printer works well with OEM inks may make warranty claims
easier.

So, I guess I'd follow the recommendations to test the printer first with
the OEM Epson inks.  However, I have no special knowledge here.

I'm told that there will not be enough dye ink in a desktop printer head to
cause serious problems with the new Eboni black.  MIS says that several
cleaning cycles will clear any initial clogging that might happen.  Again,
however, I have no special information or experience here.  MIS, however,
seems to be concerned mostly with CISs and large format printers that have a
lot of the old ink in them when inks are changed.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com



Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thank you Paul for you opinion.

-richo-
http://piskoftak.sk/

Many thanks for your advice and explanation, Paul.
I will buy a new CFS.

Do you think it is possible to clean the CFS, let the cartridges dry 
for some months
and use it again on another printer (1270)?

Hans



>Hans,
>
>I would recommend changing the cartridge part of the CFS.  The gray inks are
>slightly warmer, and the entire inkset uses an entirely new base to allow it
>to print on RC paper.
>
>The black ink is sensitive to dye ink pollution.  I'm not sure if there is
>enough dye in the VM K to trigger the problem, but I would not take a
>chance.
>
>I have had no problems with the new inkset.  There were some initial
>problems with a mistake in mixing, defective CIS carts, and, apparently, dye
>ink pollution.  Those are the only patterns I've seen.  There have been a
>few questions come up that don't fit any pattern.  So, it's still early in
>the inkset's usage, and I think MIS is appropriately covering itself by
>being cautious.  To me, it's a big improvement, however.
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com
>___________________________________
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hans Nohlberg [mailto:chiahans@...]
>Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:59 PM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Digital BW] Compability old/new MIS WM
>
>
>Hi all of you
>Sorry if this has been up before.
>But do I dare, just to clean the CFS bottles with the old MIS WM and
>make a refill with the new one, think it's the 4.3.5 version.
>MIS says it takes 4-5 refills to change the ink in the carts.
>But how big is the difference in "color" between the old and new inks?
>Printing on 1290 using Pauls curves.
>Can I expect "solvent" clogging or other problems?
>
>TIA
>Hans
>
>BTW anyone who has experience from the 2000P and new WM?
>Atelier Pictoform
>Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
>Hedåsgatan 5
>SE-412 53 Göteborg
>SWEDEN
>
>+46  (0)31181414
>
>(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
>
>www.artphotocollection.com
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
>this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hedåsgatan 5
SE-412 53 Göteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414

(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)

www.artphotocollection.com

Hans,


>Do you think it is possible to clean the CFS,
>let the cartridges dry for some months
>and use it again on another printer (1270)?

I would not re-use the cartridges.  It might be possible to, in effect,
re-build the things, but you'd probable have more time in it that warranted
by the cost of a new one.  The other parts of the CIS/CFS are, of course,
easy to clean and re-use.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
_________________________________


>Hans,
>
>I would recommend changing the cartridge part of the CFS.  The gray inks
are
>slightly warmer, and the entire inkset uses an entirely new base to allow
it
>to print on RC paper.
>
>The black ink is sensitive to dye ink pollution.  I'm not sure if there is
>enough dye in the VM K to trigger the problem, but I would not take a
>chance.
>
>I have had no problems with the new inkset.  There were some initial
>problems with a mistake in mixing, defective CIS carts, and, apparently,
dye
>ink pollution.  Those are the only patterns I've seen.  There have been a
>few questions come up that don't fit any pattern.  So, it's still early in
>the inkset's usage, and I think MIS is appropriately covering itself by
>being cautious.  To me, it's a big improvement, however.
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com
>___________________________________
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hans Nohlberg [mailto:chiahans@...]
>Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:59 PM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Digital BW] Compability old/new MIS WM
>
>
>Hi all of you
>Sorry if this has been up before.
>But do I dare, just to clean the CFS bottles with the old MIS WM and
>make a refill with the new one, think it's the 4.3.5 version.
>MIS says it takes 4-5 refills to change the ink in the carts.
>But how big is the difference in "color" between the old and new inks?
>Printing on 1290 using Pauls curves.
>Can I expect "solvent" clogging or other problems?
>
>TIA
>Hans
>
>BTW anyone who has experience from the 2000P and new WM?
>Atelier Pictoform
>Chia N-L\ufffdfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
>Hed\ufffdsgatan 5
>SE-412 53 G\ufffdteborg
>SWEDEN
>
>+46  (0)31181414
>
>(Bes\ufffdk/visit Hed\ufffdsgatan 6)
>
>www.artphotocollection.com
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
>to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
>various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-L\ufffdfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hed\ufffdsgatan 5
SE-412 53 G\ufffdteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414

(Bes\ufffdk/visit Hed\ufffdsgatan 6)

www.artphotocollection.com


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/