Digital BW, The Print

Tyler wrote
> I'd take Bob O's advise seriously, I think he's been putting both of his
through heavier use than mine

No way.  ;-))

>and seems to have
> had more trouble. Sorry Bob, I didn't know you had clog problems.
> I'd buy a refurb with a warranty. The first thing you should do is get the
thickest 17x22 Epson paper there is and print a
> large box, say 16x20, on it with the Epson inks, through the back. If it
is not square, or is not the correct dimensions (a little
> short, or long), imediately send it back or in for warranty. Don't accept
whacky nozzle patterns or alignment problems, just
> keep bugging them until it's right with the OEM ink. Epson is very good,
and fast, about 3000 repairs.
> Once that part is ok most of the problems are behind you, except for the
thickest of papers.

Agreed. And no matter the problems with the 3000- - its still a horse. And
for the price nothing better.

>It will pass very thick paper, but
> can't control the advance acurately. So you'll get incorrect dimensions
and banding. How thick varies, I can use papers up
> to around 250gsm ok, Steve has actually had luck with 310gsm paper, and I
think Bob told me he couldn't even get Wells
> River 190gsm through without a problem. I used to get Concorde Rag?gsm
through the front, the others have to go through
> the back but it makes no performance difference as far as I can tell
despite the additional roller contact.
> Pizza wheels are an individual thing, they help my paper stay square, but
for others leave marks on some papers. The new
> Piezo driver does solve banding if the printer needs it, but is very slow.

On my 3000 Wells River will not feed in a straight path.
Somerset Enhanced will.
Somerset will.
Schollershammer will.

250 gsm?
Forget it. There were many threads in the Piezo list about
feeding methods and problems. Weak Springs. Uneven springs.
Platen differential spacing. Paper dust accumulation.
Printer thickness settings. Etc

Many of the repair depots have no clue about this stuff.
"Replace the heads, yeah, we can do that"  ;-))

Thanks
Bob Obenland

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" <bobenland@m...> wrote:
> Tyler wrote
> > I'd take Bob O's advise seriously, I think he's been putting both of his
> through heavier use than mine
> 
> No way.  ;-))

Hey! I thought one of yours got regular work with proofing jobs? Or has it all turned into Web work now? I feel like a 
dinosaur, it's all royalty free and online. Gates is going to kill me yet.

> Agreed. And no matter the problems with the 3000- - its still a horse. And
> for the price nothing better.

Right, notice how everyone here who has one seems to fall in love with it?

> On my 3000 Wells River will not feed in a straight path.
> Somerset Enhanced will.
> Somerset will.
> Schollershammer will.
> 
> 250 gsm?
> Forget it. There were many threads in the Piezo list about
> feeding methods and problems. Weak Springs. Uneven springs.
> Platen differential spacing. Paper dust accumulation.
> Printer thickness settings. Etc

None of that dinking around helped me much, sure took a lot of my time though. I think we once discussed the surface 
quality of the papers, how the roller can't hold some surfaces well. Might explain the discrepency with measuring success 
by gsm alone. I think you topped me with experiments by a long shot, adhesives, tractor feed, etc...
Your description of watching the heads go back and forth sounded all too familiar, I think there's something wrong with us.
Tyler

Bob,

Are the Somerset Enhanced, Somerset and Schollershammer the only 
papers you are working with on the 3000?

My favorites (today anyways) are Eclipse Satin 190gsm, Photo Rag 
188gsm, Torchon 285, German Etching and William Turner 190 . Although 
I guess it is simply a matter of giving them a try with a particular 
3000. 

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" 
<bobenland@m...> wrote:
> Tyler wrote
> > I'd take Bob O's advise seriously, I think he's been putting both 
of his
> through heavier use than mine
> 
> No way.  ;-))
> 
> >and seems to have

(snip)

3000 prints on 17x22in paper with a 14x18in image take 1 hour 15min!! That is 
the only size I have timed. That's with the new improved anti banding piezo 
driver 1440dpi setting. At 720 DPI the time is cut in half and the quality is 
as good as the previous 3000 piezo driver. Its the 1440 setting that is 
different from the previous version and this setting lays the ink differently 
as well as advances the paper slower, hence the banding masking properties. I 
tend to use 1440 for 17x22in paper to help insure a square print. 720 seems 
fine on smaller sizes as there is less time for skewing of the image. This 
skewing is something you may not notice unless you measure the the width of 
the image top and bottom. There may be an 1/8th or so difference and this 
will show up when you try to mat the print. Something will always look out of 
square.
I think its a pretty good bet a refurb 3000 will keep you going for 2 years. 
I printed hundreds of thick sheets 310gsm ,and over time my skewing is not 
solvable on large sheets of thick paper.  Wells river and up to Sumerset 225 
still prints fine. Those thick sheets kind of stretched the rollers or 
transport just enough to get it out of spec.
Steve Meyers


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> 3000 prints on 17x22in paper with a 14x18in image take 1 hour 
15min!! That is 
> the only size I have timed. That's with the new improved anti 
banding piezo 
> driver 1440dpi setting. At 720 DPI the time is cut in half and the 
quality is 
> as good as the previous 3000 piezo driver. Its the 1440 setting 
that is 
> different from the previous version and this setting lays the ink 
differently 
> as well as advances the paper slower, hence the banding masking 
properties.

Steve,

Ouch! You mean I have to learn even more patience? Sigh. Now I know 
why you have two of them. Are the 720 and 1440 close enough in 
tonality that you can work at 720 to get the image adjusted and then 
use the 1440 for the finished prints?

 I 
> tend to use 1440 for 17x22in paper to help insure a square print. 
720 seems 
> fine on smaller sizes as there is less time for skewing of the 
image. This 
> skewing is something you may not notice unless you measure the the 
width of 
> the image top and bottom. There may be an 1/8th or so difference 
and this 
> will show up when you try to mat the print. Something will always 
look out of 
> square.

That must be a sinking feeling if you have been printing for a show 
and then go to mat the prints!

> I think its a pretty good bet a refurb 3000 will keep you going for 
2 years. 
> I printed hundreds of thick sheets 310gsm ,and over time my skewing 
is not 
> solvable on large sheets of thick paper.  Wells river and up to 
Sumerset 225 
> still prints fine. Those thick sheets kind of stretched the rollers 
or 
> transport just enough to get it out of spec.

That sounds fine. As long as I can get the 200gsm stuff through I'll 
be happy. Since the finished product will get window matted I don't 
really need or want the weight unless that is the only way the paper 
comes.

I am not a very high volume worker so I think 2 years is probably 
plenty. By then it is likely to be a very different ball game. I hope 
that Epson will come out with a new model to fill the huge price hole 
between the 1280 and the 5000 that will take 17" paper. Even if they 
do, it will cost a lot more than the current refurbed 3000's.

Thanks,
Martin

> How slow is the Piezo driver with the 3000? Right now my 1200 does an
> 8x10 in about 7 minutes with the new Piezo driver set to "Best" which
> I believe corresponds to 1440 dpi.
>
Martin, I may be misunderstanding you on this, but the dpi setting on the
driver box just change the dither pattern form 'old' to'new'.

Julian

Martin:
One thing you have to be careful with feeding on the angle. If you are using
heavier paper, when the trailing edge snaps free of the feed shoot it will
be further from the print head then the rest of the print. This will cause
some banding on the trailing edge. If at all possible feed thicker paper
through the tractor feed slot. The paper goes into the printer in a straight
path and eliminates this difference between the print head and the paper.

Jim Davis
http://www.visual-artists.com
davis.jarthur@...
Fine art printmaker

----- Original Message -----

From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:21 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Looking for 3000 Advice


> Tyler,
>
> The angle feed sounds good. Like you I would have to put it back
> against the wall. It would have to go on the plywood shelf over my
> monitor but as long as the paper goes in at an angle I am sure I
> would have space to work it out.

I once tried to figure out how I could best accommodate a 3000 
without giving up the straight-through manual/tractor feed. It seemed 
to me best to put the 3000 (or two 3000s) on a cart in an opposite 
corner and wheel it up to the rest of the workstation for connection 
(ethernet?) and printing. I.e., I could make room for the 3000, or 
even two stacked, I just couldn't make room on my physical desktop 
(because of a large flatbed scanner with an SCSI connection I 
couldn't extend).

Incidentally, Dan Culbertson designed, built, and used a neato feeder 
tray to fit between two not-stacked 3000s with their backs turned to 
each other. I think he marked up the tray to help him control 
registration for the over-printing he was then doing. Oh, for a large 
room with a high table that can be walked around!

Sam

>Martin:
>One thing you have to be careful with feeding on the angle. If you are using
>heavier paper, when the trailing edge snaps free of the feed shoot it will
>be further from the print head then the rest of the print. This will cause
>some banding on the trailing edge. If at all possible feed thicker paper
>through the tractor feed slot. The paper goes into the printer in a straight
>path and eliminates this difference between the print head and the paper.
>
>Jim Davis
>http://www.visual-artists.com
>davis.jarthur@...
>Fine art printmaker
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:21 AM
>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Looking for 3000 Advice
>
>
> > Tyler,
> >
> > The angle feed sounds good. Like you I would have to put it back
> > against the wall. It would have to go on the plywood shelf over my
> > monitor but as long as the paper goes in at an angle I am sure I
> > would have space to work it out.

> Bob,
> 
> Are the Somerset Enhanced, Somerset and Schollershammer the only 
> papers you are working with on the 3000?
> 
> My favorites (today anyways) are Eclipse Satin 190gsm, Photo Rag 
> 188gsm, Torchon 285, German Etching and William Turner 190 . Although 
> I guess it is simply a matter of giving them a try with a particular 
> 3000. 
> 
> Martin

With the new V6 driver I was inspired to do some new tests.

Eclipse Satin 190gsm, Photo Rag 188gsm both seem to feed
reasonably well with 8.5 X 11 sheets but thats not to say
17 X 22 will do the same. One of the feed issues is skewing
which on my machine happens most with the 17 X 22 sheets.

Torchon 285 won't go even in small sizes.

William Turner is Wells River I think.
Ok letter size, No at larger sizes.

As Tyler mentioned its a wierd combination of paper thickness,
surface treatment, and surface texture that effects skewing
and "feedability".

I feed from the back (the Culberson method)
though I find if I can get a paper to feed
from the front, the increased roller contact
helps keep the paper straight...

Thanks
Bob Obenland

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" <bobenland@m...>
wrote:
> > Tyler wrote
> > > I'd take Bob O's advise seriously, I think he's been putting both of
his
> > through heavier use than mine
> >
> > No way.  ;-))
>
> Hey! I thought one of yours got regular work with proofing jobs?

Yes. Still does. Tons. PressReady and Epson Inks
with Epson/PressReady/SWOP certifed papers and profiles.

But that doesn't count.
That works out of the box..  ;-))


>Or has it all turned into Web work now? I feel like a
> dinosaur, it's all royalty free and online. Gates is going to kill me yet.

Well theres still traditional licsensing on Corbis
but most of my customers know about royalty free stuff.

Wish I had some good news.  ;-))

Thanks
Bob Obenland

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" <bobenland@m...> wrote:

> Yes. Still does. Tons. PressReady and Epson Inks
> with Epson/PressReady/SWOP certifed papers and profiles.
> 
> But that doesn't count.
> That works out of the box..  ;-))

You are joking right? Actually, after all those updates and bug fixes, it's been working flawlessly for a long time now. Knock 
knock.

> Well theres still traditional licsensing on Corbis
> but most of my customers know about royalty free stuff.
> 
> Wish I had some good news.  ;-))

I'm glad to hear you are working. Here there have been huge lay-offs at the agencies and design firms. I had an AD from a 
fairly prestiges Boston design firm out here for a shoot, she got home afterwards to find it was her last project because the 
partners decided to bail and close down, the was no previous clue. Fortunately, there are still CEO's that want vanity pieces, 
so I'm alright for now.
I'm wondering if there's a living in quad workflows as shareware?
That's a joke...

So are things looking up for you with Piezo and your 3000?
Tyler

Jim,

Thanks for the tip but if I go for a 3000, I will have to put its 
back to the wall and either front or rear angle feed. There seems to 
be quite a bit of printer to printer variation on this so maybe I 
will get lucky.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "J. Arthur Davis" 
<jarthurdavis@e...> wrote:
> Martin:
> One thing you have to be careful with feeding on the angle. If you 
are using
> heavier paper, when the trailing edge snaps free of the feed shoot 
it will
> be further from the print head then the rest of the print. This 
will cause
> some banding on the trailing edge. If at all possible feed thicker 
paper
> through the tractor feed slot. The paper goes into the printer in a 
straight
> path and eliminates this difference between the print head and the 
paper.
> 
> Jim Davis
> http://www.visual-artists.com
> davis.jarthur@v...
> Fine art printmaker
> 
(snip)

Julian,

In the v6 of the Piezo driver you can select a quality level 
of "Good", "Better" or "Best". I believe the Piezo driver uses these 
to select a paper feed increment that is related to the increments 
used by the Epson driver. The Epson prints 720 dpi side-to-side but 
by using smaller amounts of paper advance can up the resolution to 
1440 or 2880. So on a 1200 the "Best" Piezo setting should use the 
paper advance increment of the 1440 dpi setting. I am not an expert 
here and may not be getting this right. 

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > How slow is the Piezo driver with the 3000? Right now my 1200 
does an
> > 8x10 in about 7 minutes with the new Piezo driver set to "Best" 
which
> > I believe corresponds to 1440 dpi.
> >
> Martin, I may be misunderstanding you on this, but the dpi setting 
on the

> driver box just change the dither pattern form 'old' to'new'.
> 
> Julian

Martin:
Here is an idea. Build yourself a U shaped box slightly larger than the
printer. Make the sides about 3" tall. Make yourself a second U shaped box
1" less wide than the first one. Go to your home depot store and purchase a
pair of drawer slides. Turn the second box upside down and fasten the one
half of the slides to the outside of this box. Take the other half of the
slides and fasten them to the inside of the first box.  Fasten the lower
half of this box to your table top.You now have a low platform that you can
place your printer on. When you want to load paper from the rear pull the
printer out from the wall, load the paper, and slide the whole thing back
again.

This conserves your space and still allows you to get to the back of the
printer.

Jim Davis
http://www.visual-artists.com
davis.jarthur@...
Fine art printmaker
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:46 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Looking for 3000 Advice


> Jim,
>
> Thanks for the tip but if I go for a 3000, I will have to put its
> back to the wall and either front or rear angle feed. There seems to
> be quite a bit of printer to printer variation on this so maybe I
> will get lucky.
>
> Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "J. Arthur Davis"
> <jarthurdavis@e...> wrote:
> > Martin:
> > One thing you have to be careful with feeding on the angle. If you
> are using
> > heavier paper, when the trailing edge snaps free of the feed shoot
> it will
> > be further from the print head then the rest of the print. This
> will cause
> > some banding on the trailing edge. If at all possible feed thicker
> paper
> > through the tractor feed slot. The paper goes into the printer in a
> straight
> > path and eliminates this difference between the print head and the
> paper.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > http://www.visual-artists.com
> > davis.jarthur@v...
> > Fine art printmaker
> >
> (snip)
>
>
>
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