Digital BW, The Print

OK, time to stop lurking on this forum, and in my digital photo 
practice, and start printing B/W.

I got the 2200 'cause I believed the Epson hype on B/W.  Silly me.  I 
love the color prints it delivers, but when it comes to B/W, somehow 
just can't believe that even the IP RIP is actually going to give me 
B/W from color inks.  It's still just color dots, no matter how well 
balanced - maybe I'm a purist, but it's not Black And White.  I think 
I just have to bite the bullet and realize that one printer can't and 
maybe shouldn't 'do it all.'

As far as B/W Inks, from what I'm reading about 7 Ink B/W 
formulations for the 2200, it seems like overkill (and a lot of 
money).  Do I want such a degree of control over Warmth to Cool 
tones?  Me personally: no.  I was never much for toning in the 
darkroom beyond a little selenium here and there, so particularly at 
the beginning of this learning curve/experience curve, one excellent 
neutral archival carbon pigment B/W print would be great.

So what do I really need?  Should I convert my trusty 4-color Epson 
980 (I believe MIS still makes carts for it) to B/W?  Is the 
resolution of the 4-color Epsons sufficient?  Is Quadtone really all 
I need?  Or should I pick up a 1280 and go 6 inks?  Or is there that 
much more acuity to the 2200 for B/W work and I should trade-off on 
inks and clean seven nozzles with cleaner cartridges between B/W and 
Ultrachromes?

What's the consensus?

JT

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Tarnoff" <
john@n...> wrote:
> OK, time to stop lurking on this forum, and in my digital photo 
> practice, and start printing B/W.
> 
> I got the 2200 'cause I believed the Epson hype on B/W.  Silly me.  I 
> love the color prints it delivers, but when it comes to B/W, somehow 
> just can't believe that even the IP RIP is actually going to give me 
> B/W from color inks.  It's still just color dots, no matter how well 
> balanced - maybe I'm a purist, but it's not Black And White.  I think 
> I just have to bite the bullet and realize that one printer can't and 
> maybe shouldn't 'do it all.'
> 
> As far as B/W Inks, from what I'm reading about 7 Ink B/W 
> formulations for the 2200, it seems like overkill (and a lot of 
> money).  Do I want such a degree of control over Warmth to Cool 
> tones?  Me personally: no.  I was never much for toning in the 
> darkroom beyond a little selenium here and there, so particularly at 
> the beginning of this learning curve/experience curve, one excellent 
> neutral archival carbon pigment B/W print would be great.
> 
> So what do I really need?  Should I convert my trusty 4-color Epson 
> 980 (I believe MIS still makes carts for it) to B/W?  Is the 
> resolution of the 4-color Epsons sufficient?  Is Quadtone really all 
> I need?  Or should I pick up a 1280 and go 6 inks?  Or is there that 
> much more acuity to the 2200 for B/W work and I should trade-off on 
> inks and clean seven nozzles with cleaner cartridges between B/W and 
> Ultrachromes?
> 
> What's the consensus?
> 
> JT

If the size limitation of the 980 is not a problem for you then loading 
with MIS inks will give excellent results.  My 980 serves as a backup/
proof machine for my 980 (the 980 is much faster than the 1160.)  I use 
the MIS-FS ink set with the Woolf workflow for the 980 and the Randall 
workflow for the 1160.  Additional workflow options are available for 
the MIS-VM (Paul Roark) ink set.

Harry Lockwood

For: John Tarnoff

>  I love the color prints it delivers, but when it comes to B/W, 
> somehow just can't believe that even the IP RIP is actually going to 
> give me B/W from color inks.  It's still just color dots, no matter 
> how well balanced - maybe I'm a purist, but it's not Black And White.

I see, you haven't seen prints made on the 2200 with ImagePrint but you 
"just can't believe it's "actually going to give "B&W from color inks." 
Well, if you're not going to believe it, then it's not worth trying to 
tell you anything.

--Mitch/Potomac, MD

My advice is to move in increments.  Quadtone RIP produces excellent results on the 
2200 that are leagues above those using the Epson driver.  With Quadtone you have a 
number of key advantages:  it involves no cost (RIP or printer costs) and uses the 
same ink sets as you use for color.  Try it and see if the improvement is something 
you are happy with.  If not then you might want to look at the work that Carl Schofield 
has been doing re adding a (one) light grey MIS Ultratone ink so that only one ink 
cartridge needs to be swapped when moving to color and back.  If that doesn't tickle 
your fancy then try the full UT set.  Why spend the money up front when there are 
significant improvements to be had for free or at little cost....?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Tarnoff" <john@n...> 
wrote:

> OK, time to stop lurking on this forum, and in my digital photo 
> practice, and start printing B/W.
> 
> I got the 2200 'cause I believed the Epson hype on B/W.  Silly me.  I 
> love the color prints it delivers, but when it comes to B/W, somehow 
> just can't believe that even the IP RIP is actually going to give me 
> B/W from color inks.  It's still just color dots, no matter how well 
> balanced - maybe I'm a purist, but it's not Black And White.  I think 
> I just have to bite the bullet and realize that one printer can't and 
> maybe shouldn't 'do it all.'
> 
> As far as B/W Inks, from what I'm reading about 7 Ink B/W 
> formulations for the 2200, it seems like overkill (and a lot of 
> money).  Do I want such a degree of control over Warmth to Cool 
> tones?  Me personally: no.  I was never much for toning in the 
> darkroom beyond a little selenium here and there, so particularly at 
> the beginning of this learning curve/experience curve, one excellent 
> neutral archival carbon pigment B/W print would be great.
> 
> So what do I really need?  Should I convert my trusty 4-color Epson 
> 980 (I believe MIS still makes carts for it) to B/W?  Is the 
> resolution of the 4-color Epsons sufficient?  Is Quadtone really all 
> I need?  Or should I pick up a 1280 and go 6 inks?  Or is there that 
> much more acuity to the 2200 for B/W work and I should trade-off on 
> inks and clean seven nozzles with cleaner cartridges between B/W and 
> Ultrachromes?
> 
> What's the consensus?
> 
> JT

Mitch:  You're being defensive and I haven't even flamed you yet 
<g>.  "Can't believe" is a figure of speech.  I've seen all the 
comments on IP and respect the judgment of all concerned (you 
included).  As I said: maybe I'm a purist, and maybe that's not 
necessarily a good thing.  It would be nice if I could eval. the IP 
software, but haven't found a way to do so (as they don't seem to 
offer a trial).  If there's a real one-stop-shop solution, that's 
obviously great.

Do you find that you're getting the same richness in your blacks that 
you would expect from a carbon, or, for that matter, from a silver 
gelatin print?

See, you can tell me something!

JT


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland 
<malland@x> wrote:
> For: John Tarnoff
> 
> >  I love the color prints it delivers, but when it comes to B/W, 
> > somehow just can't believe that even the IP RIP is actually going 
to 
> > give me B/W from color inks.  It's still just color dots, no 
matter 
> > how well balanced - maybe I'm a purist, but it's not Black And 
White.
> 
> I see, you haven't seen prints made on the 2200 with ImagePrint but 
you 
> "just can't believe it's "actually going to give "B&W from color 
inks." 
> Well, if you're not going to believe it, then it's not worth trying 
to 

> tell you anything.
> 
> --Mitch/Potomac, MD

Mitch:  You're being defensive and I haven't even flamed you yet 
<g>.  "Can't believe" is a figure of speech.  I've seen all the 
comments on IP and respect the judgment of all concerned (you 
included).  As I said: maybe I'm a purist, and maybe that's not 
necessarily a good thing.  It would be nice if I could eval. the IP 
software, but haven't found a way to do so (as they don't seem to 
offer a trial).  If there's a real one-stop-shop solution, that's 
obviously great.

Do you find that you're getting the same richness in your blacks that 
you would expect from a carbon, or, for that matter, from a silver 
gelatin print?

See, you can tell me something!

JT


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland 
<malland@x> wrote:
> For: John Tarnoff
> 
> >  I love the color prints it delivers, but when it comes to B/W, 
> > somehow just can't believe that even the IP RIP is actually going 
to 
> > give me B/W from color inks.  It's still just color dots, no 
matter 
> > how well balanced - maybe I'm a purist, but it's not Black And 
White.
> 
> I see, you haven't seen prints made on the 2200 with ImagePrint but 
you 
> "just can't believe it's "actually going to give "B&W from color 
inks." 
> Well, if you're not going to believe it, then it's not worth trying 
to 

> tell you anything.
> 
> --Mitch/Potomac, MD

For: John Tarnoff

>   I've seen all the
> comments on IP and respect the judgment of all concerned (you
> included).  As I said: maybe I'm a purist, and maybe that's not
> necessarily a good thing.  It would be nice if I could eval. the IP
> software, but haven't found a way to do so (as they don't seem to
> offer a trial).  If there's a real one-stop-shop solution, that's
> obviously great.

I understand that if you buy IP you can return it within 30 days. To 
answer your original question or, to be more precise, your original 
contention that you don't think that any printer printing B&W with 
color inks can produce a neutral print: IP is spot-on neutral, and the 
TintPicker allows subtle "toning", say, from warm to selenium tone. On 
the other hand, if you use the Epson driver, even with very good 
profiles, it's virtually impossible to get a really neutral print, 
without a color cast in some tones. But some people who want to print 
strongly toned prints, such a sepia tone, have been happy using the 
Epson driver with the Bill Atkinson profiles, for example.


> Do you find that you're getting the same richness in your blacks that
> you would expect from a carbon, or, for that matter, from a silver
> gelatin print?

I don't believe any inkjet printer produces the rich blacks that are 
possible with a silver gelatin print, particularly on matte paper. If 
by "carbon" print you mean quad inks like Piezography, then, yes, the 
UC inks with IP can match the blacks. There is a lot of information in 
the archives on Dmax measurement with different papers and inks, but it 
may be difficult to get at.

--Mitch/Potomac, MD

> Quadtone RIP produces excellent results on the 
> 2200 that are leagues above those using the Epson driver.  With
Quadtone you have a 
> number of key advantages:  it involves no cost (RIP or printer
costs) and uses the 
> same ink sets as you use for color.

Although QuadtoneRIP has no dollar costs, it APPEARS to me, based
on the myriad postings here about how to install it, that it involves
a significant cost in terms of effort and frustration to get it
going.  For example, you must download and install two additional
software packages in addition to QTR itself.

I'm not trying to dis the author or the software.  It's a wonderful
service he's provided by making this free software available and
he also seems to provide free support in trying to get it installed.

I'm just suggesting that you may be happier by some other solution,
such as the free driver called OPM (www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol).
I got this up and running with VERY little effort and it gives
great results.  

But based on the huge enthusiasm for Quadtone RIP that I see in this
forum, I'm wondering if I should bite the bullet and try to install
it as well.  But I'm glad I started with OPM.

John

John, 
Forgive me but your post sounds a little like sour grapes.
If you have a Mac then installation should be simple for someone that has used a mac 
before. In my case i had not.
True, there seem to be lots of issues with installing to Linux, but if you are 
experianced here you should not have a problem.
Believe you me, the results from my 2200 using Quadtone Rip are stunning, only 
limited by the quality of the input.....If you want a test print send me a self 
addressed envelope and I'll mail you one!


Barry--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johngeyles" <jge@c...> 
wrote:

> > Quadtone RIP produces excellent results on the 
> > 2200 that are leagues above those using the Epson driver.  With
> Quadtone you have a 
> > number of key advantages:  it involves no cost (RIP or printer
> costs) and uses the 
> > same ink sets as you use for color.
> 
> Although QuadtoneRIP has no dollar costs, it APPEARS to me, based
> on the myriad postings here about how to install it, that it involves
> a significant cost in terms of effort and frustration to get it
> going.  For example, you must download and install two additional
> software packages in addition to QTR itself.
> 
> I'm not trying to dis the author or the software.  It's a wonderful
> service he's provided by making this free software available and
> he also seems to provide free support in trying to get it installed.
> 
> I'm just suggesting that you may be happier by some other solution,
> such as the free driver called OPM (www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol).
> I got this up and running with VERY little effort and it gives
> great results.  
> 
> But based on the huge enthusiasm for Quadtone RIP that I see in this
> forum, I'm wondering if I should bite the bullet and try to install
> it as well.  But I'm glad I started with OPM.
> 
> John

> Forgive me but your post sounds a little like sour grapes.

Maybe that's fair.  And I guess it's right that most of the
problems people seem to be having here are related to Linux
(rather than OSX) installations.

I have no doubt that QTR gives wonderful results (and thanks
for the offer to send me a test print), but I wonder
if they are better than OPM/IJC.  Of course, QTR allows printing
color too (but I'm pretty satisfied with color from the Epson
driver).  I think the main reason I'd want to use QTR is that
I want to migrate from OS9 to OSX, and OPM/IJC is only for OS9
(Antonis, is OPM/IJC gonna become available for OSX ?).  And there
seem to be a lot more QTR users, so maybe more profiles downloadable.

Anyhow, in the spirit that the newbie original-poster is probably
better off with an incremental approach, I still think he might be
better off starting with OPM.

John

johngeyles wrote:
> ....But based on the huge enthusiasm for Quadtone RIP that I see in 
> this
> forum, I'm wondering if I should bite the bullet and try to install
> it as well.  But I'm glad I started with OPM.
>
> John

John,

I think most of the post discussion on the difficulties on installing 
QuadTone RIP are related to the installing the software on a PC using 
Linux.  If you are using a Mac with OS X then I think you would find 
the installation very easy provided you follow the instructions from 
Roy's site and in the downloads very carefully, particularly the 
printer naming conventions.

I downloaded and installed the software very quickly on a Sunday 
afternoon.  The only problem I encountered was getting the profiles to 
load properly into the "CurvesDropDownBox" folder. In my case i think 
this was due to the OS X security keychains that I had set up.  i don't 
think you would have any problem getting QT RIP up and running on a OS 
X Mac.

I think in Linux you probably need to have good Unix and/or Linux 
skills at the command line level.

If you are doing a Mac installation and have problems feel free to 
contact me off list.

I think Roy and Carl have done a great service.

QT Rip and I have, in the last lines of Casablanca, ",,,the beginning 
of a beautiful friendship..."

Regards,

David




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,

I just want to clear up a couple issues.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johngeyles" <jge@c...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Forgive me but your post sounds a little like sour grapes.
> 
> Maybe that's fair.  And I guess it's right that most of the
> problems people seem to be having here are related to Linux
> (rather than OSX) installations.

The Linux installations are a whole different ball park.  I don't have
any Linux boxes, so these guys are porting software that has never
been compiled, tested, or even tried on those operating systems.

> 
> I have no doubt that QTR gives wonderful results (and thanks
> for the offer to send me a test print), but I wonder
> if they are better than OPM/IJC.  

The print engine for both systems is the same -- gimp-print.  So if
whoever designed the curves for each system, did as good a job
the results should be the very similar.

Of course, QTR allows printing
> color too (but I'm pretty satisfied with color from the Epson
> driver).  

There is no color printing for either QTR or IJC.  They both use
grayscale input and control each of the inks independently.

   I think the main reason I'd want to use QTR is that
> I want to migrate from OS9 to OSX, and OPM/IJC is only for OS9

For a user downloading existing curves, the OS9 vs OSX is primarily
the only big difference.  There is a usage difference in that IJC uses
a separate program OPM to do the printing, QTR uses the standard
print dialogues of the OS.

Designing curves is fairly different for the two products.

> (Antonis, is OPM/IJC gonna become available for OSX ?).  And there
> seem to be a lot more QTR users, so maybe more profiles downloadable.
> 
> Anyhow, in the spirit that the newbie original-poster is probably
> better off with an incremental approach, I still think he might be
> better off starting with OPM.
> 
> John

Roy

> I just want to clear up a couple issues.

Thanks.  I never meant to slam QTR.

> For a user downloading existing curves, the OS9 vs OSX is primarily
> the only big difference.  

Got it.

> Designing curves is fairly different for the two products.

Could you say more about this ?

Thanks, John