Digital BW, The Print

I'm a user of Imageprint with an Epson 2200 and very happy with it.  As a PC user, it setup first try and has continued to without issue.   The user interface is quit simple.  As you mention it is very convenient to use the factory inks.  I had other solutions but find that I like the simplicity of the Imageprint and a 2200.  No fuss no muss.  

Regards,

David

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: neilsphoto 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:14 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Image Print vs Septone


  A simple question w/o a simple answer.  I print 90% B&W and have been 
  happy with matte black ink on matte paper in my 2200.   Very near neutral 
  prints except for when I get window light on them.   Nothing new here.

  So between those 2 options which to choose.  Leave price out for now.  One 
  uses OE ink so clogging etc should not be any more of a problem than 
  normal. 
  Problems with Septone ink?  Anyone know?  I can 2200 Ink at Staples Office 
  stores. Another plus.   I think the closer I stay with OE  Epson materials the 
  better.  I want to print not tinker.

  How about using the programs?   Easy to pick up or do you wonder "huh 
  what?" too often.    I'm on OS X.

  And they really really work?    Has IP really got no color shift using the same 
  ink as Epson?   

  All comments welcome, thanks

  Neil




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Neil,

I've read of initial problems with the Septone system (cartridge issues), but I believe they've all be resolved. I use IP 5.6 (PC) for both color and B&W printing. I can assure you that grayscale output, at least to my eye, is dead neutral when using tint 50,50. Other tint values can be specified which will subtlely shift the "color" either warmer or cooler. No where near the tone shifts of, say, the MIS UT inkset and Paul's curves, but slight toning nonetheless. With Septone, keep in mind that you would have to dedicate a 2200 to B&W only and the cartridges are approx twice the cost of the standard Epson cartridges.

Just a couple of thoughts....

Alan Huntley

> 
> From: "neilsphoto" <neilsphoto@...>
> Date: 2003/11/10 Mon AM 09:14:41 EST
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Image Print vs Septone
> 
> A simple question w/o a simple answer.  I print 90% B&W and have been 
> happy with matte black ink on matte paper in my 2200.   Very near neutral 
> prints except for when I get window light on them.   Nothing new here.
> 
> So between those 2 options which to choose.  Leave price out for now.  One 
> uses OE ink so clogging etc should not be any more of a problem than 
> normal. 
>  Problems with Septone ink?  Anyone know?  I can 2200 Ink at Staples Office 
> stores. Another plus.   I think the closer I stay with OE  Epson materials the 
> better.  I want to print not tinker.
> 
> How about using the programs?   Easy to pick up or do you wonder "huh 
> what?" too often.    I'm on OS X.
> 
> And they really really work?    Has IP really got no color shift using the same 
> ink as Epson?   
> 
> All comments welcome, thanks
> 
> Neil

Not entirely true, Alan. I've swapped Septone/UC cartridges twice, so far, with
no problem. I did as I saw recommended somewhere... just plug the cartridge ink
outlet with a solid rivet, and cellophane-tape the smaller hole (which I presume
relieves the vacuum). Then, I put each cartridge in a sealable plastic bag
labeled with the cartridge color to avoid contaminating the cartridge with any
drips from a different ink when I re-use the bag. Easiest would be to just use a
new bag each time, but I'm a New Englander. ;-) On the other hand, the
cartridges are $18.
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Alan.Huntley@...
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Image Print vs Septone
...snip...
With Septone, keep in mind that you would have to dedicate a 2200 to B&W only
and the cartridges are approx twice the cost of the standard Epson cartridges.
...snip...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ken,

I didn't really think of swapping the cartridges in/out because I've never
had much luck with this technique. I've plugged with specially made rivets,
taped, etc., but "things" just seem to always dry out and/or not work. Maybe
I let 'em sit too long! ;>) Being a former New Englander myself I fully
appreciate the frugality of your approach. Thanks for tossing in your 2
cents because I don't have any real experience with the Septone system; just
relating things that I'd heard or read.

I will say, however, that over the years, in general, I've had more issues
with CIS systems, refillable cartridges and third-party inks, than I've ever
had out of standard Epson cartridges. That's why I finally decided to go
with ImagePrint for both color and B&W. It works great, it's simplicity in
itself to use, and the results are fantastic! I have not had any of the
issues with IP that many have written about on this forum and others.

Alan Huntley

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kenschuster" <ken.schuster@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Image Print vs Septone


> Not entirely true, Alan. I've swapped Septone/UC cartridges twice, so far,
with
> no problem. I did as I saw recommended somewhere... just plug the
cartridge ink
> outlet with a solid rivet, and cellophane-tape the smaller hole (which I
presume
> relieves the vacuum). Then, I put each cartridge in a sealable plastic bag
> labeled with the cartridge color to avoid contaminating the cartridge with
any
> drips from a different ink when I re-use the bag. Easiest would be to just
use a
> new bag each time, but I'm a New Englander. ;-) On the other hand, the
> cartridges are $18.

> I've read of initial problems with the Septone system (cartridge 
issues), but I believe they've all be resolved. I use IP 5.6 (PC) for 
both color and B&W printing. I can assure you that grayscale output, 
at least to my eye, is dead neutral when using tint 50,50. Other tint 
values can be specified which will subtlely shift the "color" either 
warmer or cooler. No where near the tone shifts of, say, the MIS UT 
inkset and Paul's curves, but slight toning nonetheless. 

.....Just a thought, but what stops you printing as a colour image in 
IP?  Can't you just add your Sepia/selenium or whatever layer to your 
B&W image and print it with the 'colour' engine?  Only curious as I 
am considering this as my future in printing with a 4000.  One of my 
ideas was that I could replace Sepia, UT and colour inksets / 
workflows in one hit.  Is it that the B&W engine cuts the use of 
yellow?  If you then print a B&W/Sepia/heavily toned image as a 
colour file this is back in?  What about images where they are fully 
B&W but for a tiny detail in colour.  I do this a lot and it has been 
the bane of my life as I can't use my UT inkset - I have to use the 
colour set and it's naff.  Would appreciate your comments, i don't 
know the system very well.....

Steve.



With Septone, keep in mind that you would have to dedicate a 2200 to 
B&W only and the cartridges are approx twice the cost of the standard 
Epson cartridges.
> 
> Just a couple of thoughts....
> 
> Alan Huntley
> 
> > 
> > From: "neilsphoto" <neilsphoto@y...>
> > Date: 2003/11/10 Mon AM 09:14:41 EST
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Image Print vs Septone
> > 
> > A simple question w/o a simple answer.  I print 90% B&W and have 
been 
> > happy with matte black ink on matte paper in my 2200.   Very near 
neutral 
> > prints except for when I get window light on them.   Nothing new 
here.
> > 
> > So between those 2 options which to choose.  Leave price out for 
now.  One 
> > uses OE ink so clogging etc should not be any more of a problem 
than 
> > normal. 
> >  Problems with Septone ink?  Anyone know?  I can 2200 Ink at 
Staples Office 
> > stores. Another plus.   I think the closer I stay with OE  Epson 
materials the 
> > better.  I want to print not tinker.
> > 
> > How about using the programs?   Easy to pick up or do you 
wonder "huh 
> > what?" too often.    I'm on OS X.
> > 
> > And they really really work?    Has IP really got no color shift 
using the same 

> > ink as Epson?   
> > 
> > All comments welcome, thanks
> > 
> > Neil

> What about images where they are fully 
> B&W but for a tiny detail in colour.  I do this a lot and it has been 
> the bane of my life as I can't use my UT inkset - I have to use the 
> colour set and it's naff.  Would appreciate your comments, i don't 
> know the system very well.....

iProof PowerRIP allows you to print combinations of color and BW without
metamerism in the same image since it uses the same printing mode for BW
and color. I would say the dots in the highlights are slightly more
visible, and the the tone is not as dead neutral as in Imageprint.
However, it will reduce the metamerism like imageprint does, and you can
affect the tone as much as you want to by using any of the usual image
manipulation tools.

They have a free evaluation on their website that prints watermarked
images:
http://www.iproofsystems.com/epson/demoepson.htm

Use 2880dpi resolution for best results.

It's fairly easy to install and use.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Daniel wrote:

>> What about images where they are fully
>> B&W but for a tiny detail in colour.  ...

>iProof PowerRIP allows you to print combinations of color
>and BW without metamerism in the same image since it uses
>the same printing mode for BW and color.

This is the option the Epson driver should have had.  It's where we'll be
eventually -- clearly the way to go.  We should not have to choose between
either exclusively B&W or color.  One machine and driver should be able to
do it all.  But, for now, it might be cheaper to just have 2 printers.

>I would say the dots in the highlights are slightly
>more visible,

I suspect that Epson opted for smoothness over neutrality on their
UltraChrome driver because the printer is really designed as a color
printer.  The B&W niche is still not big enough for them to care much.  The
new HP printer may change that.

When the Epson 2200 driver is used for a B&W print the highlights appear to
be made up of only the color inks.  Even the midtones of their "B&W" images
have large amounts of color pigments in them.

IP went the other direction and runs the light black all the way up into the
highlights.  They then add just enough cyan and magenta to cool down the
native warm black (some carbon but more "Proprietary dyes and pigments" [see
Material Safety Data Sheets]) pigments.  The cost is dots that some find
objectionable.  (I don't.)

Basically, the way IP and the "quad" inksets avoid metamerism and color
tints is to use no yellow and as little color as possible to tone the warm
carbon (or proprietary) black/gray pigments.  For longevity also, the less
color pigments the better.

I suspect Epson will go with a more completely black pigment solution only
when they get a light gray ink in the mix.  I wish they had that as an
option on the 4000 instead of the photo K.  It'll be interesting to see what
the RIP makers do with that machine.  If we had control of each jet, we
could dump the PK and go with a light gray from the UT inkset, for example.

>They have a free evaluation on their website that
>prints watermarked images:
>http://www.iproofsystems.com/epson/demoepson.htm

It sounds like an interesting system.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

i thought about this too, and from what i understand
the 4000 has a slightly smaller dot size, so perhaps
that would help allow us to get away with three greys
instead of four. i guess we'll see eventually.

je

--- Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:> I
suspect Epson will go with a more completely black
> pigment solution only
> when they get a light gray ink in the mix.  I wish
> they had that as an
> option on the 4000 instead of the photo K.  It'll be
> interesting to see what
> the RIP makers do with that machine.  If we had
> control of each jet, we
> could dump the PK and go with a light gray from the
> UT inkset, for example.

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