Digital BW, The Print

My 1270 hit the dirt the other day, I thought about donating it to Goodwill but then 
that would be a black cloud over my head. I just know some poor sucker would pay 
$100.00 or so dollars at Goodwill only to find out that the Print Head is shot. 
Replacement price is around $200.00 for a print head, I found this out the other day 
when I took it in for repair. 
 So the reason I write is to ask this question, does anyone know if the 2000p will work 
with a different ink cart set (1270 perhaps). I found out that both the 1270 and the 
2000p use the same head. My big brain tells me that they should be able to use the 
same inks too then, or maybe the cart carriage is a little different. The reason I would 
like to know is, I have to buy a new printer to go with the New MIS system I just 
bought for my 1270 before the head quit. I thought I could get a 2000p for dirt cheap 
and use my Mis system with the 2000p.
 Something else, since these 1270 printers are starting to die and it seems like only 
one color on the head always goes out. Maybe there is a solution to turn it into a 
quad tone ink set up and get every inch of life out of the little beast. 

Please excuse my knowledge of how printers work, I can only master so many things 
in my lifetime.

error

"does anyone know if the 2000p will work with a different ink cart set
(1270 perhaps)."

Howdy error,

the cartridges should fit fine, but you'll need to save the chips from
the 2000P cartridges and recharge them for use in that machine...

good luck,
Tom De Carlo

The 2000P is an outstanding printer for BW. In fact,
at the price for which it is now selling, a very 
good deal. I use Gen4K and MIS FSE inks. You can
use the standard Epson driver ( no color correction )
and get a fine B to W curve. Since the 2000P
was designed for pig inks, you can leave it for 
weeks (many), do a single cleaning and have 
every nozzle working properly. Due to my infrequent
use of this printer, I just reprogram old chips and
refill new carts.

IMO - try one !

Alex



I thought I could get a 2000p for dirt cheap 

> and use my Mis system with the 2000p.
> 
> error

Alex, From what I have seen or read, not many people would agree with you on your 
opinion of a 2000p as a B+W Printer. I would love to give it a try though, but I already 
own the MIS system for the 1280/70 printers. Buying a whole new set up to match 
the 2000p might put me up in the price range that surpasses buying a new 1280 
(when you consider I have to buy a 2000p plus a new MIS system). I would love to 
know if I could use my MIS system with the 2000p and just change inks. If anyone has 
some light on this subject, I would like to hear it.

thanks,
error

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Alex Pettit Jr." 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> The 2000P is an outstanding printer for BW. In fact,
> at the price for which it is now selling, a very 
> good deal. I use Gen4K and MIS FSE inks. You can
> use the standard Epson driver ( no color correction )
> and get a fine B to W curve. Since the 2000P
> was designed for pig inks, you can leave it for 
> weeks (many), do a single cleaning and have 
> every nozzle working properly. Due to my infrequent
> use of this printer, I just reprogram old chips and
> refill new carts.
> 
> IMO - try one !
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I could get a 2000p for dirt cheap 
> > and use my Mis system with the 2000p.
> > 
> > error

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "error516" 
<error516@y...> wrote:
> I would love to 
> know if I could use my MIS system with the 2000p and just change 
inks. If anyone has 
> some light on this subject, I would like to hear it.
> 
> thanks,
> error


I can't speak directly from experience about the transition of the 
MIS system on the 12X0 to the 2000P, but the Mediastreet Niagara 
system is directly interchangeable. Therefore, I would suspect that 
the MIS system is as well, save a little "fiddling".

The most important match is the cartridges -- and a 1270/1280 
cartridge will physically fit the 2000P, the printers dimensions are 
the same so the feed tubes should be OK, etc. HOWEVER -- and this is 
very important so I don't mean to shout -- DO NOT install a 1270/1280 
cartridge, whether from a CIS or an original Epson cartridge -- into 
your 2000P without changing the chip on the cartridge -- FAILING TO 
DO SO MAY RUIN YOUR PRINTER.

Here's my experience: I had a brand new Mediastreet Niagara system 
for the 2000P. I wanted to install it in a new 1280. I called 
Mediastreet and asked them if I could exchange the system, but they 
were kind enough to inform me that I just needed to change the 
cartridge chips. They sent me a pair of chips with simple 
instructions and everyone's happy.

If you use a chip resetter, you could probably just remove a pair of 
chips from an expired pair of 2000P carts (preferably one's that 
don't yet read completely empty), install them on a 2000P CIS 
cartridge (remembering that the black and color are different) and 
reset them.

Also keep in mind the questions of ink compatibility between what you 
were using in your 1279/1280 carts and what you are putting in the 
2000P machine, make sure the feed tubes are properly routed to clear 
the head, etc -- everything should work fine.
 
It did for me, but if your machine has a problem, please don't blame 
me as YMMV ;>) Do a bit of homework with Bob or the folks at 
Mediastreet and make sure you're comfortable with all the facts and 
procedures before you make the change...

Let us know how things work out. Good luck and good printing!

RH

The 2000P is fully '1280' compatible in that I purchase
the 1280 empty carts from MIS.  There is a high degree
of physical similarity. I am not even sure if this small 
JetTec chip resetter is even for the 2000P - each time I 
install a new cart, the software complains that I have 
not installed proper Epson carts, but to click Ok to 
continue ....

 There were several people at the art show last weekend 
that confirmed in cash the 2000P Is an excellent B&W printer.

That much, I can assure you. The reference for quality: my 
Epson 3000 with Piezo driver and PiezoTone Selenium inks. 

When you get the 2000P feeding the MIS FSE inks smoothly,
a few cleaning cycles and overnight pauses, you will have
a very reliable printing system.


Best,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "error516" 
<error516@y...> wrote:
> Alex, From what I have seen or read, not many people would agree 
with you on your 
> opinion of a 2000p as a B+W Printer. I would love to give it a try 
though, but I already 
> own the MIS system for the 1280/70 printers. Buying a whole new set 
up to match 
> the 2000p might put me up in the price range that surpasses buying a 
new 1280 
> (when you consider I have to buy a 2000p plus a new MIS system). I 
would love to 
> know if I could use my MIS system with the 2000p and just change 
inks. If anyone has 

> some light on this subject, I would like to hear it.
> 
> thanks,
> error

Hi Alex,

Would you be willing to share a little more information about your 
workflow with the 2000P? If you're comparing it favorably to a good-
running Piezo 3000, I'd like to try your process.

Are you using the original or neutral FSE inks?
What papers do you find yield the best results?
Whose workflow are you using -- the Woolf/Randall or a variation?
Any other tips or secrets you'd like to share?

Thanks much!
Richard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Alex Pettit 
Jr." <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

>  The 2000P is fully '1280' compatible in that I purchase
> the 1280 empty carts from MIS.  There is a high degree
> of physical similarity. I am not even sure if this small 
> JetTec chip resetter is even for the 2000P - each time I 
> install a new cart, the software complains that I have 
> not installed proper Epson carts, but to click Ok to 
> continue ....
> 
>  There were several people at the art show last weekend 
> that confirmed in cash the 2000P Is an excellent B&W printer.
> 
> That much, I can assure you. The reference for quality: my 
> Epson 3000 with Piezo driver and PiezoTone Selenium inks. 
> 
> When you get the 2000P feeding the MIS FSE inks smoothly,
> a few cleaning cycles and overnight pauses, you will have
> a very reliable printing system.
> 
> 
> Best,
> Alex
>

> Would you be willing to share a little more information about your 
> workflow with the 2000P? If you're comparing it favorably to a good-
> running Piezo 3000, I'd like to try your process.
> 
> Are you using the original or neutral FSE inks?
> What papers do you find yield the best results?
> Whose workflow are you using -- the Woolf/Randall or a variation?
> Any other tips or secrets you'd like to share?
> 
> Thanks much!
> Richard


Howdy Richard,

I'm not Alex, but I also believe the 2000P to be an excellent black
and white (hextone) printer. the introduction of MIS' Eboni black ink
really improved the shadow areas!!!

with MIS FSE (Original, Neutral didn't cut it) inks, it is nearly plug
and play..!

with the MIS VM and UT inks, I use Paul Roarks workflow & curves for
the 1290 printer. I get great separation, no posterization, and
dot-free highlights..! --- Thanks again Paul!!! ---

if you're using the CIS system, you might need a different chip
resetter. the F-16 resetter is printer specific, so if you already set
it for your 1270, you might need another...

I use mine with hand-filled cartridges. When I feel patient, I refill
those same carts, otherwise I toss them and fill others... still way
cheaper than OEM or prefilled..! and it lets me switch between black
and white and color.

my favorite papers are:
Epson Enhanced Matte - good all-purpose proofing paper
Epson Velvet Fine Art - great everyday heavy paper
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag - Still the finest thing to come out of my printer!!!
Arches Infinity - Very close to overtaking the Photo Rag as favorite.

papers that worked well but didn't quite appeal to me:
Lumijet Preservation Classic Velour
Crane's Museo
Eclipse Satine (when it was available)

there are many others I haven't tried yet, but I am finding that
anytime someone raves about a paper that impressed them through a
2200, I can expect it to work in my 2000P too!


Happy Printing!
Tom De Carlo

Hi Tom,

I fully concur.
I think the only reason the 2000P did not gain popularity with 
BW printers is that it was more costly than the 1280 and gave
nasty metameristic printing with the Epson color pigments.
The 2000P is now priced much less than the 1280 on the Epson Refurb 
site.

Best,
Alex

> 
> Howdy Richard,
> 
> I'm not Alex, but I also believe the 2000P to be an excellent black
> and white (hextone) printer. the introduction of MIS' Eboni black 
ink  really improved the shadow areas!!!
> 
> with MIS FSE (Original, Neutral didn't cut it) inks, it is nearly 
plug  and play..!

> 

> 
> Happy Printing!
> Tom De Carlo

....If you're comparing it favorably to a good-  running Piezo 3000, 
Hi Richard,

Actually, it is the other way around. If I could get the 3000 to print 
the fine details of a good running 2000P running at 2880 dpi ..

You can match the 3000 with Piezodriver and PiezoTone inks by just 
installing a set of MIS FSE ink carts and setting the printer to no 
color correction, photo quality. 

For the show last weekend, in order for the quality of the small 7x9 
prints to match that of the 16x20 from the 3000, I printed them on the 
2000P. The fine banding and 1440 dpi resolution of my 3000 is more 
apparent in smaller sizes...

I developed a PictureWindows tint curve that uses the darkest grey 
from 65% to 90% and greatly reduces the grain created from the black 
ink's use above 80%, but the Epson ink monitor forces you to change 
the color ink cart too often.

I use EAM and RedRiver Premium Matte ( with OBs !! - but a one month 
test in the sun shows that, IMO it is fine - I like White )

Best,
Alex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "richard_h95050" 
<richardh@j...> wrote:

> Hi Alex,
> 
> Would you be willing to share a little more information about your 
> workflow with the 2000P? If you're comparing it favorably to a good-
> running Piezo 3000, I'd like to try your process.
> 
> Are you using the original or neutral FSE inks?
> What papers do you find yield the best results?
> Whose workflow are you using -- the Woolf/Randall or a variation?
> Any other tips or secrets you'd like to share?
> 
> Thanks much!
> Richard
> 
>

Hi Alex, Tom, error and all...

Thanks very much for the info and contribution to this thread.

Just a few questions:

 - Alex, would you be willing to share the curve you developed?
 - What are the other printer settings you use on your machines with 
the FSE? Alex, you mention NCA, Photo Quality setting -- how about 
paper settings -- archival matte for all? Source Space/Print Space?
 - Tom, any tweaks as you change between papers?
 - Sounds ike the CIS manufacturer's warnings about problems with the 
differences in chips between the 1270/1280 and the 2000P carts are 
probably more for selling new "always full" chips than any possiblity 
of damaging the 2000P ;>)

Anything I've missed here? Must admit that after working with so many 
different combinations of printers, plugins and inks over the years, 
this sounds all too elegantly simple ;>) I've got a 2000P that has 
been sitting idle since my son purchased a 2200 and I was just going 
to sell it, but I've got to give this a go -- it sounds toooo good!

Any experince using the FSE inks with similar good results on other 
printers? Wide-format?

Thanks, all...

Kind regards and good printing!
Richard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Alex Pettit 
Jr." <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> ....If you're comparing it favorably to a good-  running Piezo 
3000, 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Actually, it is the other way around. If I could get the 3000 to 
print 
> the fine details of a good running 2000P running at 2880 dpi ..
> 
> You can match the 3000 with Piezodriver and PiezoTone inks by just 
> installing a set of MIS FSE ink carts and setting the printer to no 
> color correction, photo quality. 
> 
> For the show last weekend, in order for the quality of the small 
7x9 
> prints to match that of the 16x20 from the 3000, I printed them on 
the 
> 2000P. The fine banding and 1440 dpi resolution of my 3000 is more 
> apparent in smaller sizes...
> 
> I developed a PictureWindows tint curve that uses the darkest grey 
> from 65% to 90% and greatly reduces the grain created from the 
black 
> ink's use above 80%, but the Epson ink monitor forces you to change 
> the color ink cart too often.
> 
> I use EAM and RedRiver Premium Matte ( with OBs !! - but a one 
month 

> test in the sun shows that, IMO it is fine - I like White )
> 
> Best,
> Alex
> 
 >

- Tom, any tweaks as you change between papers?

howdy Richard,

there probably are little things I should do for each of the different
papers, but at this point, I only look to make sure my shadows aren't
lost, my mids aren't too gritty, and my highlights are dot-free!!!

I keep telling myself to take a more scientific approach, but I lack
the patience to spend time printing the same image again and again..!

Happy New Week!

Tom

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the response -- I notice there aren't any 1270/1280/2000P 
FSE cartridges listed on the MIS Website (unless I'm missing 
something). I don't want to fill up a CIS with the inks until I have 
a chance to give them a try -- guess I'll give Bob a call tomorrow 
and see if he can steer me in the right direction (I prefer not to 
hand fill if I can avoid it). They often have carts that aren't on 
their site or will provide them at very little extra cost.

I'm also working with a couple of other systems on my wide-format 
printers, but haven't settled in to a workflow that I feel really 
comfortable with -- in the interim, I enjoy trying different 
workflows on my desktop systems, so I appreciate your sharing your 
experience with the 2000P. I'll let you know how things go as soon as 
I can get some inks in the 2000P...

Thnanks again, Tom.

Richard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom " 
<pouty_bob@y...> wrote:
>  - Tom, any tweaks as you change between papers?
> 
> howdy Richard,
> 
> there probably are little things I should do for each of the 
different
> papers, but at this point, I only look to make sure my shadows 
aren't
> lost, my mids aren't too gritty, and my highlights are dot-free!!!
> 
> I keep telling myself to take a more scientific approach, but I lack
> the patience to spend time printing the same image again and 
again..!

> 
> Happy New Week!
> 
> Tom

Hi Richard,
I really only use EAM on the 2000P and have optimized 
the workflow for that, although the RR PremMatte seems
to give identical performance, but a brighter white.

Yes, EAM setting, Photo quality, High Speed. 
Did not find a 'source.space/print.space' option ..

And, actually, I have mixed the K and Color chips together,
reset and installed them without discression: they work
fine.

Print a 100 step curve and see if there are any areas needing
adjustment. I only found that the K saturated a bit early. I
just created a curve I use ( in Picture Windows ) as a final
adjustment before printing. (a shift from 0-100% to 0-98% ).

I was considering selling the 2000P also- just to free up some space 
in the room, but they are selling so cheaply, and the print quality 
is superior to the 3000, so for small prints It it a Keeper.

Please post your results !!

( oh, in my case anyway, the MIS FS inks did not work well
at all in the 3000 .... major fine banding and poor 
nozzle tests )

Best,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "richard_h95050" 
<richardh@j...> wrote:
> Hi Alex, Tom, error and all...
> 
> Thanks very much for the info and contribution to this thread.
> 
> Just a few questions:
> 
>  - Alex, would you be willing to share the curve you developed?
>  - What are the other printer settings you use on your machines with 
> the FSE? Alex, you mention NCA, Photo Quality setting -- how about 
> paper settings -- archival matte for all? Source Space/Print Space?
>  - Tom, any tweaks as you change between papers?
>  - Sounds ike the CIS manufacturer's warnings about problems with 
the 
> differences in chips between the 1270/1280 and the 2000P carts are 
> probably more for selling new "always full" chips than any 
possiblity 
> of damaging the 2000P ;>)
> 
> Anything I've missed here? Must admit that after working with so 
many 

> different combinations of printers, plugins and inks over the years, 
> this sounds all too elegantly simple ;>) I've got a 2000P that has 
> been sitting idle since my son purchased a 2200 and I was just going 
> to sell it, but I've got to give this a go -- it sounds toooo good!
> 
> Any experince using the FSE inks with similar good results on other 
> printers? Wide-format?
> 
> Thanks, all...
> 
> Kind regards and good printing!
> Richard
> 
>

Hi Alex,

EAM was one of my favorite papers, and so many of the "alternate 
workflows" are optimized for it. Lately, with all the talk about EAM 
not being so "A", I've been reluctant to use it for anything but 
proofing and playing ;>)  Personally, I haven't seen any of the 
yellowing problems, but I don't want my customers to either. I'll 
have to give the RR PremMatte a try...

I was surprised to hear that you're able to use the "high speed" 
setting and get such good results. That was one hesitation I had, 
since the 2000P on regular speed gets to be pretty slow. 
The 'source.space/print.space' option is in Photoshop, when you 
hit "Print with Preview" and set up the color space translations for 
the source/driver. Are you printing your finished B&W image as 
an "Adobe RGB" output or "Grayscale"? Do you have your printspace set 
to "Same as Source"  -- that would be my guess...

Interesting about mixing the chips -- I ordered an FSE inkset today 
from MIS and a set of fresh CFS carts for it -- I asked them about 
the chips and they again told me I had to make sure not to mix the 
2000P's with the 12X0's. I just smiled. At $30 for a pair of "always 
full" chips, I can understand why they would want to follow 
manufacturer's recommendations ;>)  MIS is great to deal with, so I 
don't mean to slight them at all -- just business, you know...

I should have the inks by the weekend so I'll let you know how I 
fare. Thanks for all your help on this. I've been focused on my wide-
carriage work, but the next steps that I want to take are rather 
involved so it will be nice to see if I have the same good luck 
you've had with this combination. It will keep me printing while I 
set up a Linux box and QTR ;>)

Thanks again to you and Tom and error for this thread -- I hope some 
other folks have gathered some good information as well...

Kind regards,
Richard 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Alex Pettit 
Jr." <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hi Richard,
> I really only use EAM on the 2000P and have optimized 
> the workflow for that, although the RR PremMatte seems
> to give identical performance, but a brighter white.
> 
> Yes, EAM setting, Photo quality, High Speed. 
> Did not find a 'source.space/print.space' option ..
> 
> And, actually, I have mixed the K and Color chips together,
> reset and installed them without discression: they work
> fine.
> 
> Print a 100 step curve and see if there are any areas needing
> adjustment. I only found that the K saturated a bit early. I
> just created a curve I use ( in Picture Windows ) as a final
> adjustment before printing. (a shift from 0-100% to 0-98% ).
> 
> I was considering selling the 2000P also- just to free up some 
space 

> in the room, but they are selling so cheaply, and the print quality 
> is superior to the 3000, so for small prints It it a Keeper.
> 
> Please post your results !!
> 
> ( oh, in my case anyway, the MIS FS inks did not work well
> at all in the 3000 .... major fine banding and poor 
> nozzle tests )
> 
> Best,
> Alex
> 
>

Hi Richard,
Just a few short comments.

I have been printing to the 2000P via Picure Windows 100%.
That is only due to the major year+ long effort to develop
a partitioned workflow for the 2000P that I considered Good.
I developed one, but the consumption of Cyan makes it somewhat 
impractical to use, yet my output does not warrant setting up
a CIS system. In all honesty, the Epson driver is excellent.
Its only fault is it beginning to use K ink at 75%. But, so
does the Cone Piezography driver. With the FSE inkest and Epson 
driver, you will have, in effect, a 'three' ink system : 
K  CMY  ClMlY .

When I commented about mixing chips, I was referring to
not discriminating between the K and Color 2000P. The
software will still let you use other carts. I tried
a set of Lyson SmallGamut inks that had 1270 chips.

I would use GreyScale mode.

Best,
Alex

Hi Richard,
OH, another thought.

Try installing the inks as they are labeled
and print the 100 step scale. If it works, fine.

If not, try this convoluted ink ordering I developed  :


CartPosition > Ink

Normal
C  > C ink
Cl > Cl ink
M  > M ink
Ml > Ml ink
Y  > Y ink

My Installation
C  > C ink
Cl > M ink
M  > Cl ink
Ml > Y ink
Y  > Ml ink

Alex

Hi Alex,

Thanks for all the info and suggestions -- one question, though:

Earlier in this thread Tom had said "... I also believe the 2000P to 
be an excellent black and white (hextone) printer. the introduction 
of MIS' Eboni black ink really improved the shadow areas!!!

...with MIS FSE (Original, Neutral didn't cut it) inks, it is nearly 
plug and play..!"

Are you using one of the two ink-order configurations below and 
getting near "plug and play" results as Tom suggested, or are you 
working with the curve set you described in your previous post which 
sounds like a considerably more complex process?

I don't mind complexity to achieve excellence, but I'm just 
curious ;>) Will try the original and alternate ink orders when they 
arrive sans curves, and move forward from there...

Thanks again,
Richard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Alex Pettit 
Jr." <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

>  Hi Richard,
> OH, another thought.
> 
> Try installing the inks as they are labeled
> and print the 100 step scale. If it works, fine.
> 
> If not, try this convoluted ink ordering I developed  :
> 
> 
> CartPosition > Ink
> 
> Normal
> C  > C ink
> Cl > Cl ink
> M  > M ink
> Ml > Ml ink
> Y  > Y ink
> 
> My Installation
> C  > C ink
> Cl > M ink
> M  > Cl ink
> Ml > Y ink
> Y  > Ml ink
> 
> Alex

Richard,
I use Generations4 black ink. 

Originally, I did not have much success with the MIS inks.
At the time, only 1280 workflow were available, and they 
produced badly posterized prints. Thus, I began my own
experiments.

When I reordered the inks, based upon their density, and 
used the NCA mode, I got excellent results. If you wish,
load the carts up with the second pattern - if your E2000P
is like mine, you will have a fine B&W printer.

It seems there are many choices to try ....

Best,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "richard_h95050"
<richardh@j...> wrote:

> Hi Alex,
> 
> Thanks for all the info and suggestions -- one question, though:
> 
> Are you using one of the two ink-order configurations below and 
> getting near "plug and play" results as Tom suggested, or are you 
> working with the curve set you described in your previous post which 
> sounds like a considerably more complex process?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Richard
> 
> 
>

I just printed a few greyscales. Without my custom
tint curve, it is preferable to use the 'ICM' setting,
and a small brightness curve rolloff that reduces blocking
above 95%. 

Alex

> 
> When I reordered the inks, based upon their density, and 
> used the NCA mode, I got excellent results.