Digital BW, The Print

I am glad the flame wars are over- I did not read everything but at 
the risk of over doing it i thought I could  add something...
Everyone of us would benefit if we could forget about Ansel 
Adams and discover our own visions and the motivation for 
creating them. Being as good as or as well informed as Ansel- 
did not even help him, so it really isn't going to help us.
As regards to Ansels visionary acuity concerning digital and 
alternative processes, I own a huge format (appx 3ftX4ft) 
Quadtone of "Moonrise "printed on Arches rag signed by "the 
man" and it is not superfine dot -it is absolutely dotless--it was 
made almost 30 years ago.
Jack

Do you know what kind of machine/process was used?  Are we missing something in what we're trying to do today that might have been used then?  Also, do you know who did the print?
 
THX
 
Tom Baker

jnhugo <jacknadelle@...> wrote:
I am glad the flame wars are over- I did not read everything but at 
the risk of over doing it i thought I could  add something...
Everyone of us would benefit if we could forget about Ansel 
Adams and discover our own visions and the motivation for 
creating them. Being as good as or as well informed as Ansel- 
did not even help him, so it really isn't going to help us.
As regards to Ansels visionary acuity concerning digital and 
alternative processes, I own a huge format (appx 3ftX4ft) 
Quadtone of "Moonrise "printed on Arches rag signed by "the 
man" and it is not superfine dot -it is absolutely dotless--it was 
made almost 30 years ago.
Jack


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Do you know what kind of machine/process was used?  Are we missing 
something in what we're trying to do today that might have been used
then?  
Also, do you know who did the print?
>  
This print was commisioned in the mid 70's by the G.Ray Hawkins
gallery in 
Los Angeles. There were 50 made in the format I have, another 200 or
so ( i 
have the documentation somewhere-) were made on the same paper, same 
size but with typography announcing the exhibit. Another 200 or so
were made 
same size with typography on a lesser quality paper.
It was produce by the BLACK BOX STUDIO in Chicago,  they are out of 
business now but were really well know for many years and received
numerous  
industry awards for producing short run, high quality artist prints
using the 
Collotype process.
The Collotype process is a destructive process that eventually
destroys itself 
thus limiting the length of the run. It uses photo sensitve gelatins
to create the 
plates ( a different plate for each color).

"Are we missing something in what we're trying to do today that might
have 
been used then?"- this was not something you could really do on your
own 
except on a small scale.

My point was that  AA was already very active in alternative
processes. To speculate whether he would have been or not is not relevent-he 
was.

His most famous concept of the negative being the original score and
the print 
an interpretive performance applies here.

> Interesting.  I personally was told by AA that ³If I were a younger man, I
> would want to explore computer imaging ----- because of the possibilities.²
> Of course this was a long time ago and he specifically made reference to the
> processing of his images for book printing.  In a related way, I must say that
> you would not believe how much many of his images were altered from the
> negative to the print.
> 
> My point was that  AA was already very active in alternative
> processes. To speculate whether he would have been or not is not relevent-he
> was.
> 
> His most famous concept of the negative being the original score and
> the print 
> an interpretive performance applies here.
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

* -----Original Message-----
* From: jnhugo [mailto:jacknadelle@hotmail.com] 
* Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:33 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] beating a dead horse
* 
* 
* --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
* <tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
* > Do you know what kind of machine/process was used?  Are we missing
* something in what we're trying to do today that might have 
* been used then?  
* Also, do you know who did the print?
* >  
* This print was commisioned in the mid 70's by the G.Ray 
* Hawkins gallery in 
* Los Angeles. There were 50 made in the format I have, another 
* 200 or so ( i 
* have the documentation somewhere-) were made on the same paper, same 
* size but with typography announcing the exhibit. Another 200 
* or so were made 
* same size with typography on a lesser quality paper.
* It was produce by the BLACK BOX STUDIO in Chicago,  they are out of 
* business now but were really well know for many years and 
* received numerous  
* industry awards for producing short run, high quality artist 
* prints using the 
* Collotype process.
* The Collotype process is a destructive process that 
* eventually destroys itself 
* thus limiting the length of the run. It uses photo sensitve 
* gelatins to create the 
* plates ( a different plate for each color).
* 
Jack,

Collotype is a form of lithography and is not a quadtone or other multiple
ink process. I believe that collotype prints are made with a single pass
through the press. Given that the prints were made in the mid 70's I would
expect that the AA collotype plates were probably made by traditional
photo-mechanical methods rather than digital.

However this would seem to be a very interesting technique for using
digitally produced contact negatives per Dan Burkholder's methods to produce
the plate.

Sounds a lot like photogravure. Strange Ross has a lot of interesting
information on this technique for digital output and some great shots on his
site as well:

http://www.psy.ku.dk/ross/

Martin Wesley
www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Just a point of curiosity.  Does anyone know what the life expectancy of a callotype on rag papers would be?  Were/are the inks dye or pigment?
 
The fact that the plates have a limited life makes those prints, potentially, more 'collectible' than ink jet prints.  The first ones off the run are supposed be be better quality, making the lower numbered prints more desirable.  In short, is the callotype process of sufficient quality to justify photographers with images they would like to make 'collectible' have callotypes made?  Would b&w callotypes be better/lesser quality than color?
 
Tom Baker

Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:


* -----Original Message-----
* From: jnhugo [mailto:jacknadelle@...] 
* Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:33 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] beating a dead horse
* 
* 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@sbcglobal.net] 
* Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 1:13 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] beating a dead horse
* 
* 
* Just a point of curiosity.  Does anyone know what the life 
* expectancy of a callotype on rag papers would be?  Were/are 
* the inks dye or pigment?
*  
* The fact that the plates have a limited life makes those 
* prints, potentially, more 'collectible' than ink jet prints.  
* The first ones off the run are supposed be be better quality, 
* making the lower numbered prints more desirable.  In short, 
* is the callotype process of sufficient quality to justify 
* photographers with images they would like to make 
* 'collectible' have callotypes made?  Would b&w callotypes be 
* better/lesser quality than color?
*  
Tom,

Don't confuse "collotype" with "calotype." Very similar names but very
different processes. I would think that a collotype printed on quality paper
with quality ink would last indefinitely depending upon how it was cared
for. I have seen books from the early 18th century that were absolutely
pristine white and unfaded black print.

Like any fine lithographic printing the lower numbered or early prints will
be sharper and more highly prized than higher numbered prints made after the
plate has begun to wear on it. I suspect that if you wanted to make
collotype photographic prints today they would be very unique. I don't
believe anyone is doing it commercially so you would have to master the
technique yourself.

If you are interested in the look of this type of printing you might want to
check out Lens Work, http://www.lenswork.com/index.html. They sometimes have
photogravure prints for sale printed with plates made from digital contact
negatives or order a print from Strange Ross. 

I got to actually hold one of Fox Talbot's calotypes from the 1840's and
while the paper was in fine shape the image was a faded purple blur.

Martin Wesley
www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "jnhugo" <jacknadelle@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] beating a dead horse


> This print was commisioned in the mid 70's by the G.Ray Hawkins
> gallery in
> Los Angeles. There were 50 made in the format I have, another
200 or
> so ( i
> have the documentation somewhere-) were made on the same paper,
same
> size but with typography announcing the exhibit. Another 200 or
so
> were made
> same size with typography on a lesser quality paper.
> It was produce by the BLACK BOX STUDIO in Chicago,  they are
out of
> business now but were really well know for many years and
received
> numerous
> industry awards for producing short run, high quality artist
prints
> using the
> Collotype process.
> The Collotype process is a destructive process that eventually
> destroys itself
> thus limiting the length of the run. It uses photo sensitve
gelatins
> to create the
> plates ( a different plate for each color).


I mentioned Black Box some time ago on the Epson Wide Format list
and someone wrote me that it still exists. It must have been in
the seventies that I first saw an article about them. Google with
("Black Box" collotype) and there are several hits so I guess
they are still working.

The printrun can be much higher than the 200 mentioned here. The
gelatine on the glassplate is hardened. Collotype is known for
its subtle tones, the density of the black is not that high but
with several printruns (quad or duotone) a better black is
obtained. The reticulation of the gelatine gives an extremely
fine grain, it has been compared with a 500 lines offset screen
(as if that ever was done). Collotype is possible on aluminium
and zinc plates as well. There used to be another collotype shop
in the USA, Trinity ?  In Europe there were several till the last
one shut in the early eightees, Hanfstaengle in Southern Germany.
They also sold materials for the process. There have been many
collotype shops in Japan. I have a Japanese book with handcolored
collotypes on crepe paper. Of the article on Black Box I remember
that it was quite unpredictable whether the plate was good or
not. A window open in the shop and it wouldn't work. But that was
in the seventies.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst 
Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 

> 
> I mentioned Black Box some time ago on the Epson Wide 
Format list
> and someone wrote me that it still exists. It must have been in
> the seventies that I first saw an article about them. Google with
> ("Black Box" collotype) and there are several hits so I guess
> they are still working.

Actually I did follow the google hitsa few months ago and found 
lots of reference to Black Box- absolutely nothing regarding the 
MOONRISE print, and from what I could determine the 
pressroom is not functioning but it's presses are being restored.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: jnhugo [mailto:jacknadelle@h...] 
> * Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:33 AM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] beating a dead horse
> * 
> * 
> * --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom 
> 
> Collotype is a form of lithography and is not a quadtone or 
other multiple
> ink process. I believe that collotype prints are made with a 
single pass

That is what makes this print so beautiful- it is not single pass 
and it is printed with more than one color of gray ink-four of them 
or a quad..anyway it was in the realm of alternate process that i 
was refering it to. By the way I think of digital quadtone printing as 
an alternative process that will likely become the replacement 
process. Although at this point it is more akin to a really good 
reproduction of a photograph then the thing itself.