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B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Steve Kale

Hi all

I have read with interest the recent posts about Tri-X 400 and would like to ask for 
guidance on a few things.  I have next to no wet darkroom experience (no space for 
the equipment) and have simply taken my film to a lab for development without ever 
asking them how they develop it.  Perhaps partially as a result of this, I have always 
been very unimpressed with my contact sheets from the lab and until moving to the 
_digital darkroom_ have not even bothered to pursue many of the captures further, 
instead focusing on my colour slide film captures and, more recently, converting them 
to B&W with PS and some of the various techniques discussed here.

And so I would like to ask for guidance so that I can explore once again shooting with 
B&W negative film.  In the past I have used T-Max 100 and 400, Tri-X 400 Pro. 
Neopan Acros 100 and, recently as a result of this forum, Technical Pan ISO 25.  I use 
both 35mm and medium format.

My questions:

Is this a good selection to start with or should I, say, abandon T-Max 400 and just use  
the Tri-X?  Are there others that should be _top of list_ ?  (I would like to keep the 
number small at least at first.)

How should each ideally be exposed?  (I think I have read enough on Tri-X 400  -  rate 
it at 320 - but what of the others?)

What direction should I give to a lab for processing?  (Is this even possible/practible?)

I hope this doesn't start a spurious debate on any issue - I am just looking for a few 
pointers to get restarted here.  FYI, I intend to scan the film with my Epson 2450 
initially  but would then rescan my favs on an Imacon which I can rent hourly at a local 
lab (later I hope to purchase the new Nikon MF scanner).

Thanks in advance

Steve

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Tom Baker

The real problem with what you are doing is not the film (although, using too many film types with the proper testing is confusing), but the lab. It's the same problem you have trying to get them to do a good b&w print.  Unless you are using a tru custom lab, chances are they are using a single type of developer (probably TMAX-RS, these days).  That developer may or may not have the capability to provide the results you want with a particular film.  So, you may have to abandon certain films.  The other is doing + and - development.  I use a 'semi-cutom' lab.  He will adjust the development times to my requirements, but he only uses one developer.  So, you need to find a lab you think you'll like, and then run test rolls of film until you get what you are looking for.
 
One other posibility is the b&w films that are processed in C-41.  They're not everyone's prime selection, and probably are not best suited for every subject/condition, but the processing is fixed, which means you get the same results regardless of the lab.
 
The bottom line is that b&w photography is not now, and never has been a 'drugstore' kind of photography.  If you want top tier results from your b&w you've got to control the process from end to end.  That means the film and the print.
 
Tom Baker

Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
Hi all

I have read with interest the recent posts about Tri-X 400 and would like to ask for 
guidance on a few things.  I have next to no wet darkroom experience (no space for 
the equipment) and have simply taken my film to a lab for development without ever 
asking them how they develop it.  Perhaps partially as a result of this, I have always 
been very unimpressed with my contact sheets from the lab and until moving to the 
_digital darkroom_ have not even bothered to pursue many of the captures further, 
instead focusing on my colour slide film captures and, more recently, converting them 
to B&W with PS and some of the various techniques discussed here.

And so I would like to ask for guidance so that I can explore once again shooting with 
B&W negative film.  In the past I have used T-Max 100 and 400, Tri-X 400 Pro. 
Neopan Acros 100 and, recently as a result of this forum, Technical Pan ISO 25.  I use 
both 35mm and medium format.

My questions:

Is this a good selection to start with or should I, say, abandon T-Max 400 and just use  
the Tri-X?  Are there others that should be _top of list_ ?  (I would like to keep the 
number small at least at first.)

How should each ideally be exposed?  (I think I have read enough on Tri-X 400  -  rate 
it at 320 - but what of the others?)

What direction should I give to a lab for processing?  (Is this even possible/practible?)

I hope this doesn't start a spurious debate on any issue - I am just looking for a few 
pointers to get restarted here.  FYI, I intend to scan the film with my Epson 2450 
initially  but would then rescan my favs on an Imacon which I can rent hourly at a local 
lab (later I hope to purchase the new Nikon MF scanner).

Thanks in advance

Steve


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by sceptre12345

You can start with this site where you'll find a lot of information 
on films.
http://www.digitaltruth.com/

Also you might want to check with the following newsgroup, devoted 
exclusively to the questions that you are asking.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&group=rec.photo.darkroom
(dont forget to copy and paste the missing caracters in the link)

Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Steve Kale

Thanks Tom.  You are undoubtedly right.  I will ask the lab I currently use what 
process they use for B&W.  The flip side, though, is that even if they are prepared to 
do custom processing I do not know what to ask for....  Finally, if anyone can 
recommend a B&W lab in the London (UK) area I would be very thankful.

Cheers

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> The real problem with what you are doing is not the film (although, using too many 
film types with the proper testing is confusing), but the lab. It's the same problem you 
have trying to get them to do a good b&w print.  Unless you are using a tru custom 
lab, chances are they are using a single type of developer (probably TMAX-RS, these 
days).  That developer may or may not have the capability to provide the results you 
want with a particular film.  So, you may have to abandon certain films.  The other is 
doing + and - development.  I use a 'semi-cutom' lab.

Re: B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Steve Kale

Thanks for the links.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sceptre12345" 
<am1000@v...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> You can start with this site where you'll find a lot of information 
> on films.
> http://www.digitaltruth.com/
> 
> Also you might want to check with the following newsgroup, devoted 
> exclusively to the questions that you are asking.
> 
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
> 8&group=rec.photo.darkroom
> (dont forget to copy and paste the missing caracters in the link)
> 
> Cheers,
> Andre

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Mark Hahn

Yup, and I would venture to say that you *really* do have the space 
to develop the film yourself.  a couple bucks for used reels, a 
couple bottles (even old soda bottles to start off with), cheap 
thermometer and a small tank is all you need... and bathroom sink, 
seriously.  In the past I have sent out b&w film in to Kodak (when 
they were more or less snapshots) using mailers from b&h and the 
prints and negs came back pretty good and they were cheaper than the 
semi-pro place developing with a contact sheet.

b&w film/dev combos *I* find forgiving:

Delta Pro 100/400 in ID11/D76/Xtol
TMax 100/400 in Rodinal/ID11/D76/Xtol
APX100 in Rodinal/ID11/D76/Xtol
TP @80 in Photographers Formulary TD-3
Tri-X (old) @ 400 in ID11/D76

for your scanner I don't think you can expect anything 400 to scan 
well, especially in 35mm... maybe 6x6 (I am only really happy with 
4x5" scans on my 2450... which is why I bought it).

T400CN isn't bad and you can get that developed real cheap... though 
converting color negs and slides has advantages for some people (no 
one start a debate on this, OK!).

mark

...
> The bottom line is that b&w photography is not now, and never has 
been a 'drugstore' kind of photography.  If you want top tier results 
from your b&w you've got to control the process from end to end.  
That means the film and the print.
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
> Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Hi all
...
> And so I would like to ask for guidance so that I can explore once 
again shooting with 
...

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Truman Prevatt

To develop film it does not require a dark room. It only requires a 
place that is completly dark so the film can be loaded on the reel and 
put in a light tight tank. That and the kitchen sink is all you need. 
Doing your own development gives you much more control on the results.

Start with one file and learn that film. Pick up something on the "Zone 
System" and it will tell you how to test for the ISO for the camera, 
meter and developer combination. It is normally about 1/2 to one stop 
slower than the rated ISO. Start with a standard developer and get good 
results from that - then you can get exiotic.

Also it is important to bring your scanner into the calibration process. 
You want a negative that you can scan eaisly. Different scanners use 
different types of light and while one negative may be fine on one 
scanner, it may not on another.

Good luck.

Truman

Steve Kale wrote:

> Hi all
>
>
> Is this a good selection to start with or should I, say, abandon T-Max 
> 400 and just use 
> the Tri-X?  Are there others that should be _top of list_ ?  (I would 
> like to keep the
> number small at least at first.)
>
> How should each ideally be exposed?  (I think I have read enough on 
> Tri-X 400  -  rate
> it at 320 - but what of the others?)
>
> What direction should I give to a lab for processing?  (Is this even 
> possible/practible?)
>
> I hope this doesn't start a spurious debate on any issue - I am just 
> looking for a few
> pointers to get restarted here.  FYI, I intend to scan the film with 
> my Epson 2450
> initially  but would then rescan my favs on an Imacon which I can rent 
> hourly at a local
> lab (later I hope to purchase the new Nikon MF scanner).
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by sceptre12345

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Thanks for the links.
> 
Oh, I forgot, if you want to do your own film processing, Agfa has an 
online film developing photocourse at:

http://www.agfanet.com/en/cafe/photocourse/bwcourse/lesson1/cont_index
.php3

Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Mark Hahn

even this is easy to work with.  when I lived in the city and didn't 
really have a closet that was totally dark I just put a box in it 
facing away from the light leaks and loaded my film in the box... 
never got fogging, even with 3200 film.

mark 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Truman Prevatt 
<tprevatt@m...> wrote:
> To develop film it does not require a dark room. It only requires a 
> place that is completly dark so the film can be loaded on the reel 
...

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Truman Prevatt

I have some nice scans of 6x7 off the 2450. Of course it is Pan X so the 
negatives are very high quality to start with. I've never tried a Tri X 
medium format.

But the scanner does do a very nice job on 4x5 Tri-X.

Truman

Mark Hahn wrote:

>
>
> for your scanner I don't think you can expect anything 400 to scan
> well, especially in 35mm... maybe 6x6 (I am only really happy with
> 4x5" scans on my 2450... which is why I bought it).
>
> T400CN isn't bad and you can get that developed real cheap... though
> converting color negs and slides has advantages for some people (no
> one start a debate on this, OK!).
>
> mark
> ps is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Steve Kale

Very useful ­ thanks Andre


> 
Oh, I forgot, if you want to do your own film processing, Agfa has an
online film developing photocourse at:

http://www.agfanet.com/en/cafe/photocourse/bwcourse/lesson1/cont_index
.php3

Cheers,
Andre






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Steve Kale

Ok, thanks to you, Andre and Tom I am feeling much more courageous than
before.  I will be studying the info in the links posted by Andre over the
weekend but I was wondering if you wouldn¹t mind explaining the shorthand
below.  Also, any other tips on what to buy/not to buy before I wander down
to the store?  I will likely wander into the following store in London on
Monday.  

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/indexA.html

Or look at the stuff in B&H and arrange for it to be lugged to London.  My
goal is the least amount of fuss (read: mess) possible and an extra few quid
is worth it if necessary.  With regard to the scanner in the mix, my working
assumption is that I will fork out for the new Nikon 9000 once it becomes
available.

Thanks again 

Steve

<snip>

b&w film/dev combos *I* find forgiving:


TMax 100/400 in Rodinal/ID11/D76/Xtol

TP @80 in Photographers Formulary TD-3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-05 by Derek Hamlet

TMAX 100/400 refers to 100asa film and 400 asa ratings.
Rodinal/ID11/D76/Xtol are four different development chemicals.  Each one
has its own parameters for the length of time for a particular film.
At 08:24 PM 12/5/03 +0000, you wrote:
>    Ok, thanks to you, Andre and Tom I am feeling much more courageous than
>  I will be studying the info in the links posted by Andre over the
> weekend but I was wondering if you wouldn¹t mind explaining the shorthand
>  Also, any other tips on what to buy/not to buy before I wander down
>  I will likely wander into the following store in London on
>  
> 
> http://www.silverprint.co.uk/indexA.html
> 
>&  My
> goal is the least amount of fuss (read: mess) possible and an extra few quid
>  With regard to the scanner in the mix, my working
> assumption is that I will fork out for the new Nikon 9000 once it becomes
> available.
> 
> Thanks again 
> 
> Steve
> 
><>
> 
>&w film/dev combos *I* find forgiving:
> 
> 
> TMax 100/400 in Rodinal/ID11/D76/Xtol
> 
> TP @80 in Photographers Formulary TD-3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>   
>      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor             
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
>as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
>from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
>and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
>THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
>GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
>GROUP.
>  
>  
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     
                 \\|//
- - - - -oo00O- (.) (.) -OOoo- - - - -
                   O    
                 \___/
             Derek Hamlet
       Victoria, British Columbia

RE: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-06 by Ken Carney

Hello, Steve.  I am very fond of Kodak Portra b&w film.  It scans very
nicely, and scanner features such as digital ice work with it.  I take mine
to a pro lab, they develop and burn a CD instead of prints, which I use for
a "contact sheet" to find the images I want to scan.  But...it is not
archival.  Developing silver b&w film is not difficult, just boring.  Here
is what I would recommend: 1. Get a table-top film-changing "tent" such as
the one offered by Calumet Photo.  You can load the reels in the tent, and
also dunk them in the developer all at once, before putting the lid on,
which is preferable to pouring developer into the tank, usually.  2. Buy a
copy of "The Negative" by Ansel Adams.  3. Get a Jobo chemistry holder,
which will keep your chemistry at a constant temperature.  4. Get the
developing tank and reels of your choice.  The important thing here is to
avoid cheap stainless ones.  I would get either professional stainless
reels, or the Patterson plastic tank and reels.  5. Get a Jobo hanging
dryer.  This is very important as you do not want dust contamination on the
film.  6. In that regard you will want a filter for your tap water for
rinsing the film.  For developing, stop and fixing you may want to use
distilled.  Distilled water does not give as sharp a grain as filtered water
with minerals, although I think the difference is over-rated.

As you can see, none of this requires a darkroom or much space, and will let
you experiment with exposure ratings and development times accurately, to
find what you like for scanning.  Having said all of that, I must say that
for inkjet b&w printing I prefer the Portra.  It has a tonal range that I
like, much like Plus-X.  Plus, for my own part, I would rather spend my time
making images and printing instead of developing film.  To each his or her
own.  In answer to your question about Tmax, it is a very linear (exacting)
film.  What you might want to do is pick one film and developer and work
with it until you understand its quirks.  A good start would be TriX and
either D-76 1:1 or Ilford DDX.  A rough start would be to cut the exposure
one stop, reduce the recommended developing time by 20% and go from there.
As I recall, Calumet has a UK outlet for all this stuff. Hope this helps a
little.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:46 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development


Hi all

I have read with interest the recent posts about Tri-X 400 and would like to
ask for
guidance on a few things.  I have next to no wet darkroom experience (no
space for
the equipment) and have simply taken my film to a lab for development
without ever
asking them how they develop it.  Perhaps partially as a result of this, I
have always
been very unimpressed with my contact sheets from the lab and until moving
to the
_digital darkroom_ have not even bothered to pursue many of the captures
further,
instead focusing on my colour slide film captures and, more recently,
converting them
to B&W with PS and some of the various techniques discussed here.

And so I would like to ask for guidance so that I can explore once again
shooting with
B&W negative film.  In the past I have used T-Max 100 and 400, Tri-X 400
Pro.
Neopan Acros 100 and, recently as a result of this forum, Technical Pan ISO
25.  I use
both 35mm and medium format.

My questions:

Is this a good selection to start with or should I, say, abandon T-Max 400
and just use
the Tri-X?  Are there others that should be _top of list_ ?  (I would like
to keep the
number small at least at first.)

How should each ideally be exposed?  (I think I have read enough on Tri-X
400  -  rate
it at 320 - but what of the others?)

What direction should I give to a lab for processing?  (Is this even
possible/practible?)

I hope this doesn't start a spurious debate on any issue - I am just looking
for a few
pointers to get restarted here.  FYI, I intend to scan the film with my
Epson 2450
initially  but would then rescan my favs on an Imacon which I can rent
hourly at a local
lab (later I hope to purchase the new Nikon MF scanner).

Thanks in advance

Steve



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-06 by Bob Michaels

First, I must say that Ken's guidance is the best way. However, when
starting you can get very satisfactory results by a bit cruder methods. 

A plain changing bag and pouring the developer in the tanks works fine.
You can follow the excellent instructions on the Ilford web site and
not buy any books. 
Temp stabilization is not required if the various fluids are within 5
degrees or so of each other.
Filtered or distilled water is not necessary in most cases.
You can hang your film to dry in the shower, just run it before if
it's dusty in your bathroom. 

You can be somewhat of a hacker and still get pretty decent negatives.
 Even if you expose your film by the manufacturers recomendations.
it's not rocket science at all. Remember how Ansel Adams developed
film and consider his prints. 

And, never lose sight of the fact that your skill as a photographer is
WAY more important than how you develop film. 

Just go buy a tank, a changing bag, chemistry and give it a try. Very
quickly you'll have better b&w negs than you get from 99% of the labs.

Bob Michaels 
ps: if you're in the UK, consider HP5 and the other excellent Ilford
products 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney"
<kcarney1@c...> wrote:
> Hello, Steve.  I am very fond of Kodak Portra b&w film.  It scans very
> nicely, and scanner features such as digital ice work with it.  I
take mine
> to a pro lab, they develop and burn a CD instead of prints, which I
use for
> a "contact sheet" to find the images I want to scan.  But...it is not
> archival.  Developing silver b&w film is not difficult, just boring.
 Here
> is what I would recommend: 1. Get a table-top film-changing "tent"
such as
> the one offered by Calumet Photo.  You can load the reels in the
tent, and
> also dunk them in the developer all at once, before putting the lid on,
> which is preferable to pouring developer into the tank, usually.  2.
Buy a
> copy of "The Negative" by Ansel Adams.  3. Get a Jobo chemistry holder,
> which will keep your chemistry at a constant temperature.  4. Get the
> developing tank and reels of your choice.  The important thing here
is to
> avoid cheap stainless ones.  I would get either professional stainless
> reels, or the Patterson plastic tank and reels.  5. Get a Jobo hanging
> dryer.  This is very important as you do not want dust contamination
on the
> film.  6. In that regard you will want a filter for your tap water for
> rinsing the film.  For developing, stop and fixing you may want to use
> distilled.  Distilled water does not give as sharp a grain as
filtered water
> with minerals, although I think the difference is over-rated.
> 
> As you can see, none of this requires a darkroom or much space, and
will let
> you experiment with exposure ratings and development times
accurately, to
> find what you like for scanning.  Having said all of that, I must
say that
> for inkjet b&w printing I prefer the Portra.  It has a tonal range
that I
> like, much like Plus-X.  Plus, for my own part, I would rather spend
my time
> making images and printing instead of developing film.  To each his
or her
> own.  In answer to your question about Tmax, it is a very linear
(exacting)
> film.  What you might want to do is pick one film and developer and work
> with it until you understand its quirks.  A good start would be TriX and
> either D-76 1:1 or Ilford DDX.  A rough start would be to cut the
exposure
> one stop, reduce the recommended developing time by 20% and go from
there.
> As I recall, Calumet has a UK outlet for all this stuff. Hope this
helps a
> little.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@b...]
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:46 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development
> 
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I have read with interest the recent posts about Tri-X 400 and would
like to
> ask for
> guidance on a few things.  I have next to no wet darkroom experience (no
> space for
> the equipment) and have simply taken my film to a lab for development
> without ever
> asking them how they develop it.  Perhaps partially as a result of
this, I
> have always
> been very unimpressed with my contact sheets from the lab and until
moving
> to the
> _digital darkroom_ have not even bothered to pursue many of the captures
> further,
> instead focusing on my colour slide film captures and, more recently,
> converting them
> to B&W with PS and some of the various techniques discussed here.
> 
> And so I would like to ask for guidance so that I can explore once again
> shooting with
> B&W negative film.  In the past I have used T-Max 100 and 400, Tri-X 400
> Pro.
> Neopan Acros 100 and, recently as a result of this forum, Technical
Pan ISO
> 25.  I use
> both 35mm and medium format.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> Is this a good selection to start with or should I, say, abandon
T-Max 400
> and just use
> the Tri-X?  Are there others that should be _top of list_ ?  (I
would like
> to keep the
> number small at least at first.)
> 
> How should each ideally be exposed?  (I think I have read enough on
Tri-X
> 400  -  rate
> it at 320 - but what of the others?)
> 
> What direction should I give to a lab for processing?  (Is this even
> possible/practible?)
> 
> I hope this doesn't start a spurious debate on any issue - I am just
looking
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> for a few
> pointers to get restarted here.  FYI, I intend to scan the film with my
> Epson 2450
> initially  but would then rescan my favs on an Imacon which I can rent
> hourly at a local
> lab (later I hope to purchase the new Nikon MF scanner).
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Steve

Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-06 by Tom Baker

I have the Calumet changing tent and it works great.  Maybe a tad expensive, but first rate.  It is big enough to load 8x10 holders, or even the big Paterson tanks.  I like it better than any changing bag/tent I've used.  Also, it folds away with a storage bag quite nicely.
 
Tom Baker

Bob Michaels <bob@...> wrote:
First, I must say that Ken's guidance is the best way. However, when
starting you can get very satisfactory results by a bit cruder methods. 

A plain changing bag and pouring the developer in the tanks works fine.
You can follow the excellent instructions on the Ilford web site and
not buy any books. 
Temp stabilization is not required if the various fluids are within 5
degrees or so of each other.
Filtered or distilled water is not necessary in most cases.
You can hang your film to dry in the shower, just run it before if
it's dusty in your bathroom. 

You can be somewhat of a hacker and still get pretty decent negatives.
Even if you expose your film by the manufacturers recomendations.
it's not rocket science at all. Remember how Ansel Adams developed
film and consider his prints. 

And, never lose sight of the fact that your skill as a photographer is
WAY more important than how you develop film. 

Just go buy a tank, a changing bag, chemistry and give it a try. Very
quickly you'll have better b&w negs than you get from 99% of the labs.

Bob Michaels 
ps: if you're in the UK, consider HP5 and the other excellent Ilford
products 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney"
<kcarney1@c...> wrote:
> Hello, Steve.  I am very fond of Kodak Portra b&w film.  It scans very
> nicely, and scanner features such as digital ice work with it.  I
take mine
> to a pro lab, they develop and burn a CD instead of prints, which I
use for
> a "contact sheet" to find the images I want to scan.  But...it is not
> archival.  Developing silver b&w film is not difficult, just boring.
Here
> is what I would recommend: 1. Get a table-top film-changing "tent"
such as
> the one offered by Calumet Photo.  You can load the reels in the
tent, and
> also dunk them in the developer all at once, before putting the lid on,
> which is preferable to pouring developer into the tank, usually.  2.
Buy a
> copy of "The Negative" by Ansel Adams.  3. Get a Jobo chemistry holder,
> which will keep your chemistry at a constant temperature.  4. Get the
> developing tank and reels of your choice.  The important thing here
is to
> avoid cheap stainless ones.  I would get either professional stainless
> reels, or the Patterson plastic tank and reels.  5. Get a Jobo hanging
> dryer.  This is very important as you do not want dust contamination
on the
> film.  6. In that regard you will want a filter for your tap water for
> rinsing the film.  For developing, stop and fixing you may want to use
> distilled.  Distilled water does not give as sharp a grain as
filtered water
> with minerals, although I think the difference is over-rated.
> 
> As you can see, none of this requires a darkroom or much space, and
will let
> you experiment with exposure ratings and development times
accurately, to
> find what you like for scanning.  Having said all of that, I must
say that
> for inkjet b&w printing I prefer the Portra.  It has a tonal range
that I
> like, much like Plus-X.  Plus, for my own part, I would rather spend
my time
> making images and printing instead of developing film.  To each his
or her
> own.  In answer to your question about Tmax, it is a very linear
(exacting)
> film.  What you might want to do is pick one film and developer and work
> with it until you understand its quirks.  A good start would be TriX and
> either D-76 1:1 or Ilford DDX.  A rough start would be to cut the
exposure
> one stop, reduce the recommended developing time by 20% and go from
there.
> As I recall, Calumet has a UK outlet for all this stuff. Hope this
helps a
> little.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@b...]
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:46 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development
> 
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I have read with interest the recent posts about Tri-X 400 and would
like to
> ask for
> guidance on a few things.  I have next to no wet darkroom experience (no
> space for
> the equipment) and have simply taken my film to a lab for development
> without ever
> asking them how they develop it.  Perhaps partially as a result of
this, I
> have always
> been very unimpressed with my contact sheets from the lab and until
moving
> to the
> _digital darkroom_ have not even bothered to pursue many of the captures
> further,
> instead focusing on my colour slide film captures and, more recently,
> converting them
> to B&W with PS and some of the various techniques discussed here.
> 
> And so I would like to ask for guidance so that I can explore once again
> shooting with
> B&W negative film.  In the past I have used T-Max 100 and 400, Tri-X 400
> Pro.
> Neopan Acros 100 and, recently as a result of this forum, Technical
Pan ISO
> 25.  I use
> both 35mm and medium format.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> Is this a good selection to start with or should I, say, abandon
T-Max 400
> and just use
> the Tri-X?  Are there others that should be _top of list_ ?  (I
would like
> to keep the
> number small at least at first.)
> 
> How should each ideally be exposed?  (I think I have read enough on
Tri-X
> 400  -  rate
> it at 320 - but what of the others?)
> 
> What direction should I give to a lab for processing?  (Is this even
> possible/practible?)
> 
> I hope this doesn't start a spurious debate on any issue - I am just
looking
> for a few
> pointers to get restarted here.  FYI, I intend to scan the film with my
> Epson 2450
> initially  but would then rescan my favs on an Imacon which I can rent
> hourly at a local
> lab (later I hope to purchase the new Nikon MF scanner).
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Steve



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Re: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-06 by Mark Hahn

umm, actually I meant Tmax 100 or Tmax 400 etc... sorry I was so 
sloppy... guess most of my post didn't make much sense to 
you:)  ...but my advice about starting out simple and cheap is 
sound.  B&W is really forgiving so you don't need a whole lot.  But I 
agree 100% about avoiding cheap stainless steel reels, but the jobo 
ones are great!  much easier than the plastic ones IMO, but the 
paterson plastics are fine as well (the ss ones are more elegant 
though;)  In general I shoot at manufacturer's rated speeds and 
adjust my development to get it out of the film... which I don't want 
to argue about.  Rodinal is a nice developer in that it comes in a 
tiny concentrated bottle and is easy to mix as needed, most others 
come in powers that have to be mixed and stored... it increases 
grain, but gives about the sharpest possible negatives.


mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet 
<derekhamlet@s...> wrote:
> TMAX 100/400 refers to 100asa film and 400 asa ratings.
> Rodinal/ID11/D76/Xtol are four different development chemicals.  
Each one
> has its own parameters for the length of time for a particular film.
> At 08:24 PM 12/5/03 +0000, you wrote:
> >    Ok, thanks to you, Andre and Tom I am feeling much more 
courageous than
> >  I will be studying the info in the links posted by Andre over the
> > weekend but I was wondering if you wouldn¹t mind explaining the 
shorthand
> >  Also, any other tips on what to buy/not to buy before I wander 
down
> >  I will likely wander into the following store in London on
> >  
> > 
> > http://www.silverprint.co.uk/indexA.html
> > 
> >&  My
> > goal is the least amount of fuss (read: mess) possible and an 
extra few quid
> >  With regard to the scanner in the mix, my working
> > assumption is that I will fork out for the new Nikon 9000 once it 
becomes
> > available.
> > 
> > Thanks again 
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> ><>
> > 
> >&w film/dev combos *I* find forgiving:
> > 
> > 
> > TMax 100/400 in Rodinal/ID11/D76/Xtol
> > 
> > TP @80 in Photographers Formulary TD-3
...

RE: [Digital BW] B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-06 by Ken Carney

>>Remember how Ansel Adams developed
film and consider his prints.

I'm looking at the Gene Smith documentary on DVD -- he's washing 35mm film
in the toilet.  OK, I'd give it a try if it led to something like Dream
Street or Paradise Garden..

Re: B&W Film, ISO settings and Development

2003-12-08 by houston.spencer@alcatel.com.cn

Steve:

I've e-mailed you another resource, off list, but forgot to mention:

Many have suggested you need a light-tight room (or closet).  While it's 
nice to have a light-tight room, you don't need one.  You can use a "dark 
bag", also known as a film changing bag, to get the film onto reels and 
into the light-tight tank.  I do the whole process eyes-open in the light. 
 No worries over years thousands of rolls.

Cheers.  --h


Houston Spencer

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