Digital BW, The Print

Dear friends:

I am not a professional photographer, though this 
is one of the activities that makes me happy. I 
want to buy a bw system. I have been trying 
septone with cartridges, and the results are far 
from being excellent. They tell me that all my 
problems will be solved with a CIS, and I want to 
believe it. For now, I am not able to choose 
between these two possibilities:

Buying an epson 1280 and the Cone piezography system (CIS)

or

Buying a new epson 2200 with the septone CIS.

I would like very much any piece of help in this difficult choice.

Thank you very much indeed
J



-- 
Jes�s D. Rodr�guez-Velasco
Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese
University of California, Berkeley
5319 Dwinelle Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720-2590

tel. +1 510 643 3916
fax +1 510 642 6957

Consider a 1280 with MIS UT inks (in carts) and use Paul Roark's
workflow & curves. I realize it's not one of your two alternatives,
and I'm not sure why. That combo produces exceptional prints, is about
as simple as it gets, and is also about the lowest cost way way to go. 

I use a CFS and love it, but they are more complex than carts. I'm not
aware of any problems they solve other than lowering ink costs long
term and greater ink options. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, JR Velasco
<jrv@s...> wrote:

> Dear friends:
> 
> I am not a professional photographer, though this 
> is one of the activities that makes me happy. I 
> want to buy a bw system. I have been trying 
> septone with cartridges, and the results are far 
> from being excellent. They tell me that all my 
> problems will be solved with a CIS, and I want to 
> believe it. For now, I am not able to choose 
> between these two possibilities:
> 
> Buying an epson 1280 and the Cone piezography system (CIS)
> 
> or
> 
> Buying a new epson 2200 with the septone CIS.
> 
> I would like very much any piece of help in this difficult choice.
> 
> Thank you very much indeed
> J
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jesús D. Rodríguez-Velasco
> Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese
> University of California, Berkeley
> 5319 Dwinelle Hall
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2590
> 
> tel. +1 510 643 3916
> fax +1 510 642 6957

I don't see why going to a CIS would fix problems you are having with 
carts... CIS usually causes more problems, but is worth it because it 
saves you money.

mark

PS  I still don't see how the 2200 and 3rd party inks is better than 
a 1280... a 2200, a RIP and Epson inks should be able to give stellar 
seps, but you have to pay for 'em.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, JR Velasco 
<jrv@s...> wrote:

> Dear friends:
> 
> I am not a professional photographer, though this 
> is one of the activities that makes me happy. I 
> want to buy a bw system. I have been trying 
> septone with cartridges, and the results are far 
> from being excellent. They tell me that all my 
> problems will be solved with a CIS, and I want to 
> believe it. For now, I am not able to choose 
> between these two possibilities:
> 
> Buying an epson 1280 and the Cone piezography system (CIS)
> 
> or
> 
> Buying a new epson 2200 with the septone CIS.
> 
> I would like very much any piece of help in this difficult choice.
> 
> Thank you very much indeed
> J
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jesús D. Rodríguez-Velasco
> Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese
> University of California, Berkeley
> 5319 Dwinelle Hall
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2590
> 
> tel. +1 510 643 3916
> fax +1 510 642 6957

* -----Original Message-----
* From: JR Velasco [mailto:jrv@...] 
* Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:48 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] asking for help to choose a system

(snip)
* 
* I have been trying 
* septone with cartridges, and the results are far 
* from being excellent. They tell me that all my 
* problems will be solved with a CIS, and I want to 
* believe it.

(snip)

J,

Could you give us some more information on your current problems. The
Septone inks are made for the seven ink printers, 2200, 7600 and 9600. So I
assume you are running the Sundance cartridges from bwguy.com in a 2200.
Exactly what kind of problems are you having? These inks and software are
very new to the market and you must be one of the first people trying them.

In general I have gotten smoother operation using CIS with my 1200 and 1280
printers in terms of fewer nozzle check problems but that is the only
advantage I have seen other than the huge cost savings over cartridges.

Martin Wesley
www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Martin:

The main problem I have had with the septone carts is making the nozzles run 
properly. Most of them remain respectfully silent -so to say- while I try to 
convince them to print with perfectly logical reasons.

I have to say that the customer service (thanks to Jessica at inkjetgoodies.com) 
has been extremely kind with me. My first set of carts allowed me to print 
properly only once -the other times, I had different kind of problems, like stains, 
lots of banding, uncontrolled ink running, etc.-, and they sent me a replacement 
set at no cost. The second set has not yet given me the joy of seeing all the 
nozzles (nor even 75% of them) printing. I told them, and they promised me an 
answer after the weekend.

They also say that there are some pressure problems with the ink cartridges 
that are solved with the CIS. I am not sure what that does mean, but I guess 
there is a problem with the special density of the septone inks: they are easily 
affected by air bubbles and other "artifacts".

I am certainly using the sundance septone plug-in. I gave them my input. My 
ideas about the plug-in are not very clear, but my main issue is that I find it too 
primitive, too simplified. Although apparently the warm-cool slides should be 
very helpful, they are not; they do not really give you a hint on how is it going to 
be the result of the print; you still have to waste a lot of paper and ink to get an 
idea, and still, there are several surprises (the result is not only difference in 
tone, I have also experience difference in contrast... which was undesirable to 
me at that moment).

As you can see, they are only intuitions, expressed in a non-technical language 
(and foreign, to me... excuse me). I hope they are at least undestandable.

Thank you very much.
JRV

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Jesus RV [mailto:jrv@....edu] 
* Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:42 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] asking for help to choose a system
* 
* 
* Martin:
* 
* The main problem I have had with the septone carts is making 
* the nozzles run 
* properly. Most of them remain respectfully silent -so to say- 
* while I try to 
* convince them to print with perfectly logical reasons.
* 
* I have to say that the customer service (thanks to Jessica at 
* inkjetgoodies.com) 
* has been extremely kind with me. My first set of carts 
* allowed me to print 
* properly only once -the other times, I had different kind of 
* problems, like stains, 
* lots of banding, uncontrolled ink running, etc.-, and they 
* sent me a replacement 
* set at no cost. The second set has not yet given me the joy 
* of seeing all the 
* nozzles (nor even 75% of them) printing. I told them, and 
* they promised me an 
* answer after the weekend.
* 
* They also say that there are some pressure problems with the 
* ink cartridges 
* that are solved with the CIS. I am not sure what that does 
* mean, but I guess 
* there is a problem with the special density of the septone 
* inks: they are easily 
* affected by air bubbles and other "artifacts".
* 
* I am certainly using the sundance septone plug-in. I gave 
* them my input. My 
* ideas about the plug-in are not very clear, but my main issue 
* is that I find it too 
* primitive, too simplified. Although apparently the warm-cool 
* slides should be 
* very helpful, they are not; they do not really give you a 
* hint on how is it going to 
* be the result of the print; you still have to waste a lot of 
* paper and ink to get an 
* idea, and still, there are several surprises (the result is 
* not only difference in 
* tone, I have also experience difference in contrast... which 
* was undesirable to 
* me at that moment).
* 
* As you can see, they are only intuitions, expressed in a 
* non-technical language 
* (and foreign, to me... excuse me). I hope they are at least 
* undestandable.
* 
J,

Sorry to hear you have had such a hard time with the cartridges. I would
keep bugging them to get you some good ones. While a CIS is the way to go
eventually, that should not be the vendor's solution to bad cartridges. The
cartridges should not be causing so many problems and should be working.

The samples I saw from Sundance were very beautiful. I like the one printed
with the inks set at 50/50 on the shadows, midtone and highlight tonal
ranges. With so many possible settings and not way to preview the effects on
screen I can imagine there would be a lot of trial and error.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with these inks and software. Let us
know what you finally do.

Thanks,
Martin

On Saturday, December 6, 2003, at 07:42 PM, Jesus RV wrote:

> The main problem I have had with the septone carts is making the 
> nozzles run
> properly. Most of them remain respectfully silent -so to say- while I 
> try to
> convince them to print with perfectly logical reasons.
>

The Original Cone inks where made by Sundance (though none of us knew 
it back then) and they where notorious for clogging. Those inks caused 
me a lot of grief ! I was rarely able to get a good and consistent 
nozzle check with them. In addition the original Cone / Sundance plugin 
was flawed in my opinion because it was prone to reveal banding on many 
Epson's in comparison to Epson's driver which employs a dither that 
usually hides banding problems most of the time.  Maybe Sundance has 
fixed all these problems... but I personally would not use their 
inventions based on my previous losses and frustrations with them.

In contrast the current MIS UT inks are the most problem free / clog 
free inks I have ever used!


-Jeff

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jef.jef@verizon.net] 
* Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:44 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] asking for help to choose a system
* 
* On Saturday, December 6, 2003, at 07:42 PM, Jesus RV wrote:
* 
* > The main problem I have had with the septone carts is making the
* > nozzles run
* > properly. Most of them remain respectfully silent -so to 
* say- while I 
* > try to
* > convince them to print with perfectly logical reasons.
* >
* 
* The Original Cone inks where made by Sundance (though none of us knew 
* it back then) and they where notorious for clogging. Those 
* inks caused 
* me a lot of grief ! I was rarely able to get a good and consistent 
* nozzle check with them. In addition the original Cone / 
* Sundance plugin 
* was flawed in my opinion because it was prone to reveal 
* banding on many 
* Epson's in comparison to Epson's driver which employs a dither that 
* usually hides banding problems most of the time.  Maybe Sundance has 
* fixed all these problems... but I personally would not use their 
* inventions based on my previous losses and frustrations with them.
* 
* In contrast the current MIS UT inks are the most problem free / clog 
* free inks I have ever used!
* 
* 
Jeff,

I agree with you about the original Sundance/Piezo inks. Clog city.
Especially on the 1200 I started with! The new Sundance inks are supposed to
be similar to the Piezotone and MIS-FS but we will have to see.

Personally I still prefer the Piezo/Sundance plug-in with Piezotone or
MIS-FS inks over RGB separation curves and the Epson driver. I find that I
can get to a finished  and tonally smoother print much more easily than I
did with the MIS-VM inks. Perhaps the UT and new curves are more refined.

A lot of this may have to do with printer to printer variation and my 1280's
seem to work very well with the plug-in. I personally have not seen any
difference in banding between the plug-in and the Epson driver and I have
run both on three different 1280's. My only dissatisfaction with the plug-in
is that they underlay 100% black with the gray inks resulting in a slightly
lower Dmax than they would get if they used the black alone in the deep
shadows.

I have ICC "Piezo 2" on order and I am very curious as to how this will
compare to the prints I get with the Piezo plug-in.

Martin Wesley
www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Saturday, December 6, 2003, 7:54:07 PM, you wrote:

MW> I have ICC "Piezo 2" on order and I am very curious as to how this will
MW> compare to the prints I get with the Piezo plug-in.

MW> Martin Wesley
MW> www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
MW> www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

I, too, eagerly await your comments and results Martin....

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Richard Sintchak [mailto:richcontaxg@sbcglobal.net] 
* Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 8:19 PM
* To: Martin Wesley
* Subject: Re[2]: [Digital BW] asking for help to choose a system
* 
* 
* 
* Saturday, December 6, 2003, 7:54:07 PM, you wrote:
* 
* MW> I have ICC "Piezo 2" on order and I am very curious as to 
* how this 
* MW> will compare to the prints I get with the Piezo plug-in.
* 
* 
* I, too, eagerly await your comments and results Martin....
* 
Richard,

I'll post a review once I get it up and running. Of course I have to receive
it first and there seems to be some delay in getting the new upgrades
shipped out. <G>

Martin

I am an amateur photographer like Jesus Velasco, and I had the 
same problem that Jesus had with the septone cartridges 
delivering very inconsistent nozzle checks.  The prints were 
absolutely wonderful when all the nozzles fired, which, sadly,  
was practically never---it seemed that one sneeze would agitate 
the inks and create bubbles, and the game would be over.  For 
some unfathomable reason I went ahead and bought the 
Septone CIS anyway, (the salespeople at inkjetgoodies insisted 
it would work, but  were also very patient and conscientious) and 
it actually does work astonishgly well, delivering excellent prints 
with no nozzle problems at all after 6 weeks of use.  My only 
regret is that I spent too much money on 3 very expensive sets of 
Septone cartridges before jumping to the CIS.

Cheers,

Yeung-Seu Yoon

Saturday, December 6, 2003, 8:52:08 PM, you wrote:

MW> I'll post a review once I get it up and running. Of course I have to receive
MW> it first and there seems to be some delay in getting the new upgrades
MW> shipped out. <G>

What a surprise. <g>

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

How does the quality of the ImagePrint print compared to Septone 
print? I have a pretty much the same experience as J. Now I am 
thinking about giving up the Septone system and go for the 
ImagePrint. Using the septone cartridges is really a nightmare. 
Frankly, I am quite disappointed with the septone system, they are 
supposed to be "allowing you to focus on image creation instead of 
equipment frustration"(this is the description of the septone 
cartridges in the inkjetgoodies web site). I expected a plug and 
play, hassle free system when I bought the system but it turns out 
that I spent most of the time and ink on nozzle checking.

I saw it on some messages that the quality of IP print doesn't 
compare with other B&W inkset. I really don't know if the IP is the 
right investment or I should give the septone CIS a shot.

Jim


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: Jesus RV [mailto:jrv@s...] 
> * Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:42 PM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] asking for help to choose a system
> * 
> * 
> * Martin:
> * 
> * The main problem I have had with the septone carts is making 
> * the nozzles run 
> * properly. Most of them remain respectfully silent -so to say- 
> * while I try to 
> * convince them to print with perfectly logical reasons.
> * 
> * I have to say that the customer service (thanks to Jessica at 
> * inkjetgoodies.com) 
> * has been extremely kind with me. My first set of carts 
> * allowed me to print 
> * properly only once -the other times, I had different kind of 
> * problems, like stains, 
> * lots of banding, uncontrolled ink running, etc.-, and they 
> * sent me a replacement 
> * set at no cost. The second set has not yet given me the joy 
> * of seeing all the 
> * nozzles (nor even 75% of them) printing. I told them, and 
> * they promised me an 
> * answer after the weekend.
> * 
> * They also say that there are some pressure problems with the 
> * ink cartridges 
> * that are solved with the CIS. I am not sure what that does 
> * mean, but I guess 
> * there is a problem with the special density of the septone 
> * inks: they are easily 
> * affected by air bubbles and other "artifacts".
> * 
> * I am certainly using the sundance septone plug-in. I gave 
> * them my input. My 
> * ideas about the plug-in are not very clear, but my main issue 
> * is that I find it too 
> * primitive, too simplified. Although apparently the warm-cool 
> * slides should be 
> * very helpful, they are not; they do not really give you a 
> * hint on how is it going to 
> * be the result of the print; you still have to waste a lot of 
> * paper and ink to get an 
> * idea, and still, there are several surprises (the result is 
> * not only difference in 
> * tone, I have also experience difference in contrast... which 
> * was undesirable to 
> * me at that moment).
> * 
> * As you can see, they are only intuitions, expressed in a 
> * non-technical language 
> * (and foreign, to me... excuse me). I hope they are at least 
> * undestandable.
> * 
> J,
> 
> Sorry to hear you have had such a hard time with the cartridges. I 
would
> keep bugging them to get you some good ones. While a CIS is the 
way to go
> eventually, that should not be the vendor's solution to bad 
cartridges. The
> cartridges should not be causing so many problems and should be 
working.
> 
> The samples I saw from Sundance were very beautiful. I like the 
one printed
> with the inks set at 50/50 on the shadows, midtone and highlight 
tonal
> ranges. With so many possible settings and not way to preview the 
effects on
> screen I can imagine there would be a lot of trial and error.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your experiences with these inks and 
software. Let us

> know what you finally do.
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin

Jim -
 
Ultrachrome inks have only two blacks.  It seems that systems with additional gray inks should be able to produce a better b&w print than the Ultrachrome inks.  However, in practice, this doesn't seem to necessarily show up visually..
 
The best thing to do is to download Imageprint and give it a try.  Many people, including me, believe that the visual quality is equal.  One photographer who did see the Imageprint Ultrachrome b&w with MIS prints made the same comment that you made.  That he had been led to believe that the Ultrachrome inks were not capable of high quality b&w.  He got a demo two days later, and ordered Imageprint the next day.  He had also been through the problems you note with two previous printers and was about to give up on the whole idea of digital printing for now.
 
Keep in mind, though, that there are many people using the other systems without too much hassle and with great success. 
 
Check out the demo and evaluate all of the systems against your needs.  All of the currently available systems seem to have trade offs in the areas of blood, sweat, tears, time, money, and aesthetics.  Everyone has their own mix that is acceptable.
 
P.S.  Apparently at least one person on this forum took exception a day or two ago when I said that there are those who think that the Ultrachrome b&w look as good as the alternative ink prints.  So, keep in mind that there are vey strong supporters of the alternative b&w ink systems.  And, most with good reason.  They're getting good results.
 
Tom Baker


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