Digital BW, The Print

I just discovered Mike Johnston's article about these printers
and they perform doing black and white at:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-14-12.shtml

Do other in this forum have any experience, knowledge, or pinions about 
these HP printers used for black and white printing?

I've got an Epson 1160 that I've tried intermittently to print
B/W with. Those endeavors have foundered on the shoals of
clogs, step wedge printing, and endless test prints.

The dedicated Epson printer for B/W approach has been too
'tweaky' for my temperment. These days I stick to color on
my Epson 1270. It would be great to have a solution for B/W
that is as straight-forward as the 1270 is for color. I'm not
averse to dedicating a printer to B/W if I can actually use it
to make pictures.

Cheers,
JimD

Check out the Yahoo HP-inkjet group. You may find some info there.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, JimD 
<rasterdogs@c...> wrote:
> I just discovered Mike Johnston's article about these printers
> and they perform doing black and white at:
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-14-12.shtml
> 
> Do other in this forum have any experience, knowledge, or pinions 
about 

> these HP printers used for black and white printing?
> 
> I've got an Epson 1160 that I've tried intermittently to print
> B/W with. Those endeavors have foundered on the shoals of
> clogs, step wedge printing, and endless test prints.
> 
> The dedicated Epson printer for B/W approach has been too
> 'tweaky' for my temperment. These days I stick to color on
> my Epson 1270. It would be great to have a solution for B/W
> that is as straight-forward as the 1270 is for color. I'm not
> averse to dedicating a printer to B/W if I can actually use it
> to make pictures.
> 
> Cheers,
> JimD

Maybe the tweakiness which has bothered Jim is just an artifact of 
the particular 1160 he got and all he needs is to be luckier on 
swapping it out for a new or refurbished 1280? (I assume there's no 
longer any U.S. market to speak of in 1160s.)

Consider my contrasting experience with two 1160s, one for B&W, one 
for color, both with NoMoreCarts CIS and a variety of mostly matte 
papers: the B&W one has been as straightforward to use as the color 
one: neither has ever been any trouble at all, not even when I first 
turn them on after being away with them off for weeks at a time, nor 
when I forget the backer sheet. I know from reading this list since 
before I got the 1160s that I've been luckier than some other 
dedicated-B&W-Epson subscribers. But my impression is that my 
experience is closer to the norm than Jim's is. And when I think 
about upgrading, which I do a lot, I tend to think in terms of the 
more recent Epsons rather than the HPs. (And I've decided that what 
I'd ideally like is a smaller 4000.)
--
Sam


At 8:59 PM -0800 1/12/04, JimD wrote:

>I just discovered Mike Johnston's article about these printers
>and they perform doing black and white at:
>
>http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-14-12.shtml
>
>Do other in this forum have any experience, knowledge, or pinions about
>these HP printers used for black and white printing?
>
>I've got an Epson 1160 that I've tried intermittently to print
>B/W with. Those endeavors have foundered on the shoals of
>clogs, step wedge printing, and endless test prints.
>
>The dedicated Epson printer for B/W approach has been too
>'tweaky' for my temperment. These days I stick to color on
>my Epson 1270. It would be great to have a solution for B/W
>that is as straight-forward as the 1270 is for color. I'm not
>averse to dedicating a printer to B/W if I can actually use it
>to make pictures.
>
>Cheers,
>JimD

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" 
<ho_yeah@y...> wrote:
> 
> Check out the Yahoo HP-inkjet group. You may find some info there.
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, JimD 
> <rasterdogs@c...> wrote:
> > I just discovered Mike Johnston's article about these printers
> > and they perform doing black and white at:
> > 
> > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-14-12.shtml
> > 
> > Do other in this forum have any experience, knowledge, or pinions 
> about 
> > these HP printers used for black and white printing?
>

Having read Mike Johnston's article I promptly went out and bought a 
HP 7660 (cheaper version of 7960) and have to say it was a great buy 
as the quality of my black & white prints are now similar to what I 
can achieve in the darkroom.

I started my photographic career as a b&w printer and have never been 
happy with inkjet printing for b&w until now. I have used an Epson 
1200 and 1160 both with MIS quad (or hextone in the 1200) inks for 
some time. The results on all types of matte paper look too flat for 
my taste, althought at A3 size hanging in a frame it's not bad.

I only have the 7660 a week and have run alot of tests with a variety 
of paper types. The recommended paper, HP premium photo glossy has 
been discontinued in Australia (where I live) and it's replacement is 
HP Colourfast Glossy. There is no matte version. That paper has a 
slightly cool look (the paper is a slightly off white colour)when 
printed. Epson's premium semi gloss comes out very warm indeed. My 
preference is Tetenal semi matte. It has a slighly warm appearance 
when placed beside the HP paper and on its own looks just right to 
me. I guess it's a subjective thing anyway. My preference has always 
been a matte look, but not flat, for my black and white prints and 
this printer does a stunning job. 

Of course it's not all perfect. Size is limited to A4, ink cartridges 
(Grey No 59) are $30 a pop, no refills available yet, but hopefully 
soon. It's dye based ink, not sure how long prints will last, but at 
least they look great!! I forgot to mention you can use the grey 
cartridge on its own, but I have found that using it along side the 
tri-colour no 57 gives the prints a nice deep black and they have a 
richer appearance. 

My kids were asking me today "just how many printers do you actually 
need dad" (I've got 5 on the go) and I was thinking well maybe I 
could retire the 1160, but then what about A3...the quest for the 
right printer is never ending.

Paul.

Paul,
Have you formed an opinion about ink usage for B/W with your
7660? Do you have an impression about how consumable expenses
with the HP might compare to your Epson inkjets?

In the info I've found on the web, ink cost gets mentioned
fairly often with regards to the 7660/7960. I get the sense though,
that those objections may be coming from folks who may not
have much experience printing photos on inkjets.

Doing color on my 1270 I've found the cost for Epson
ink and paper to be reasonably tolerable. Doing B/W on
my 1160 I've wasted a fair amount of ink and paper clearing
clogs and doing various types of tests. The cost of fussing
with B/W has been priceless.

Cheers,
JimD


At 06:48 AM 1/15/2004, Paul wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
><ho_yeah@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Check out the Yahoo HP-inkjet group. You may find some info there.
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, JimD
> > <rasterdogs@c...> wrote:
> > > I just discovered Mike Johnston's article about these printers
> > > and they perform doing black and white at:
> > >
> > > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-14-12.shtml
> > >
> > > Do other in this forum have any experience, knowledge, or pinions
> > about
> > > these HP printers used for black and white printing?
> >
>
>Having read Mike Johnston's article I promptly went out and bought a
>HP 7660 (cheaper version of 7960) and have to say it was a great buy
>as the quality of my black & white prints are now similar to what I
>can achieve in the darkroom.
>
>I started my photographic career as a b&w printer and have never been
>happy with inkjet printing for b&w until now. I have used an Epson
>1200 and 1160 both with MIS quad (or hextone in the 1200) inks for
>some time. The results on all types of matte paper look too flat for
>my taste, althought at A3 size hanging in a frame it's not bad.
>
>I only have the 7660 a week and have run alot of tests with a variety
>of paper types. The recommended paper, HP premium photo glossy has
>been discontinued in Australia (where I live) and it's replacement is
>HP Colourfast Glossy. There is no matte version. That paper has a
>slightly cool look (the paper is a slightly off white colour)when
>printed. Epson's premium semi gloss comes out very warm indeed. My
>preference is Tetenal semi matte. It has a slighly warm appearance
>when placed beside the HP paper and on its own looks just right to
>me. I guess it's a subjective thing anyway. My preference has always
>been a matte look, but not flat, for my black and white prints and
>this printer does a stunning job.
>
>Of course it's not all perfect. Size is limited to A4, ink cartridges
>(Grey No 59) are $30 a pop, no refills available yet, but hopefully
>soon. It's dye based ink, not sure how long prints will last, but at
>least they look great!! I forgot to mention you can use the grey
>cartridge on its own, but I have found that using it along side the
>tri-colour no 57 gives the prints a nice deep black and they have a
>richer appearance.
>
>My kids were asking me today "just how many printers do you actually
>need dad" (I've got 5 on the go) and I was thinking well maybe I
>could retire the 1160, but then what about A3...the quest for the
>right printer is never ending.
>
>Paul.
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
>and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
>THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
>BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE 
>USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Jim,
it's a little early for me to know how much consumables are going to 
be. Having had the printer a week now and printing about 20 A5 prints 
the ink levels as shown in the HP software have dropped about a 
third. It's always hard to be accurate with those kind of meters, but 
I feel it's pretty good. Replacement grey cartridges are about $30 
from internet suppliers and the paper I have found to suit me best 
(Tetenal semi matte) runs about a dollar a sheet for A4. This 
internet supplier is promising a Hp 59 replacement cartridge soon...  
http://inkjetsaver.com/

I don't think inkjet printing is ever going to be inexpensive!!

Today for the first time ever I tried out a Fuji Frontier print 
service run by a local store. Got them to print a variety of things 
including the black and white photos I used for the Hp 7660 tests. 
All the colour ones were excellent. As everything is on glossy paper 
I'm not mad about the b&w shots. They have a cool blue look and I 
suspect a touch of green in certain lighting conditions. The Hp gives 
a better result on glossy using hp paper and I really can't praise 
the quality on the Tetenal enough. It is for my money the best A4 b&w 
printer I have used. By the way I thought the Frontier prints were 
excellent value got 40 prints for $15 and it only took 15 minutes.

With my epson 1290 I use non branded cartridges made in China and 
they perform just as well as Epson's inks for about a third of the 
price. I use Epson premium semi gloss as my paper of choice. My 1160 
has bulk cis inks (quadtone) from MIS. The 1160 has been in use about 
a year and I'm always reading about problems, but haven't had any 
yet. I have been considering putting a cfs onto the 1290 for colour 
work.

Hope I have been of some help to you Jim. Have a look at this site...
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/index.html

they have a very in depth review of the Hp 7960. They have lots of 
stuff on its b&W printing capabilities.  Remember it has basically 
the same printing engine as the 7660 for B&W. I went for the 7660 on 
price. Can't spend all my money on printing...need something for 
camera equipement too :-)

Cheers,
Paul.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, JimD 
<rasterdogs@c...> wrote:

> Paul,
> Have you formed an opinion about ink usage for B/W with your
> 7660? Do you have an impression about how consumable expenses
> with the HP might compare to your Epson inkjets?
> 
> In the info I've found on the web, ink cost gets mentioned
> fairly often with regards to the 7660/7960. I get the sense though,
> that those objections may be coming from folks who may not
> have much experience printing photos on inkjets.
> 
> Doing color on my 1270 I've found the cost for Epson
> ink and paper to be reasonably tolerable. Doing B/W on
> my 1160 I've wasted a fair amount of ink and paper clearing
> clogs and doing various types of tests. The cost of fussing
> with B/W has been priceless.
> 
> Cheers,
> JimD

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JimD [mailto:rasterdogs@...] 
<snip>
> Paul,
> Have you formed an opinion about ink usage for B/W with your
> 7660? Do you have an impression about how consumable expenses
> with the HP might compare to your Epson inkjets?

I'm not Paul, and I don't even play one on TV <g>.  But I do own a 7960.
It consumes the gray ink cartridge at a very high rate, and the cost of
ink is much higher than any Epson printer I've owned.

> In the info I've found on the web, ink cost gets mentioned
> fairly often with regards to the 7660/7960. I get the sense though,
> that those objections may be coming from folks who may not
> have much experience printing photos on inkjets.

Not always.  More likely coming from people who do have experience, but
with Canon or Epson or older HPs that don't use the new Photo Gray
cartridge.  It's a drastic increase in the rate at which ink is used -
unlike anything you've seen before.

> Doing color on my 1270 I've found the cost for Epson
> ink and paper to be reasonably tolerable. Doing B/W on
> my 1160 I've wasted a fair amount of ink and paper clearing
> clogs and doing various types of tests. The cost of fussing
> with B/W has been priceless.

Exactly.  So in the end, when you compare it all per print - I think it
all balances out.  I'm also able to get acceptable prints on the first
shot with the HP, and that seldom happened with with my particular files
on Epson printers.  It's more WYSIWYG for my images and set up, and I
find I throw out very few prints.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul [mailto:psmurnan@...] 
<snip> 
> This 
> internet supplier is promising a Hp 59 replacement cartridge soon...  
> http://inkjetsaver.com/

Paul,
     I would be very, very skeptical of any aftermarket ink for the HP
printers that use the Photo Gray cartridge.  HP has very carefully
matched the paper to the ink in this series, and this is to date the
most specific and critical paper/ink match ever made.  In a recent
interview in Shutterbug with Henry Wilhelm, he mentions that and states
that the combination of the new HP inks and HPPP paper yields a 73 year
fade resistance when the same ink on another paper only rated 2 years.
That's how specific the ink/paper match is.  You can read the interview
here:

http://www.shutterbug.net/features/1103sb_thearchival/

     Remember, these are dyes, not pigments.  To get a decent archival
rating from dyes is an engineering feat that involves the ink and the
paper.
     Of course, if print longevity isn't important to you, then go for
it.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Mathews" 
<ed@l...> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul [mailto:psmurnan@y...] 
> <snip> 
> > This 
> > internet supplier is promising a Hp 59 replacement cartridge 
soon...  
> > http://inkjetsaver.com/
> 
> Paul,
>      I would be very, very skeptical of any aftermarket ink for the 
HP
> printers that use the Photo Gray cartridge.  HP has very carefully
> matched the paper to the ink in this series, and this is to date the
> most specific and critical paper/ink match ever made.  In a recent
> interview in Shutterbug with Henry Wilhelm, he mentions that and 
states
> that the combination of the new HP inks and HPPP paper yields a 73 
year
> fade resistance when the same ink on another paper only rated 2 
years.
> That's how specific the ink/paper match is.  You can read the 
interview
> here:
> 
> http://www.shutterbug.net/features/1103sb_thearchival/
> 
>      Remember, these are dyes, not pigments.  To get a decent 
archival
> rating from dyes is an engineering feat that involves the ink and 
the
> paper.
>      Of course, if print longevity isn't important to you, then go 
for
> it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ed
> http://lightandsilver.com

Thanks for that Ed. The interview makes interesting reading. I'm all 
for longevity for my prints. What's the point in spending time and 
money on them only to fade away in a short time. I need to get in 
touch with some HP person in Australia as the Hp Premium Plus Photo 
paper has been discontinued here to be replaced by Hp Colourfast 
Photo paper. I am unsure if it is the same paper. It's only available 
in gloss at present and I of course prefer matte. The info on the box 
makes long archival claims. I have looked at internet suppliers in 
the US and they are selling the Hp PPP but will not ship it overseas. 
I wonder if there is some HP prohibition on this. It's all a bit 
strange.

I never before considered buying anything other than an Epson 
printer, so this is a brave new step :-) I would say that with this 
printer I can finally give a client a black & white print made on an 
inkjet that is as good as any I can pull out of a tray of developer.
At the end of the day I guess you have to weigh up the ink costs and 
ask if it's worth it. For me it is, I feel there is light at the end 
of the tunnel that (for me at least) has been the downside of digital 
photography....trying to make a good black and white print.

Paul.

Paul Murphy
Sydney
Australia

Well, the ink drinking tendencies do give me something to consider.
I'm pretty fond of Atlex as a consumables supplier but they don't show
the grey cartridge on their site and their prices for the other
HP cartridges aren't a bunch better than what HP offers them for.

I'm still seriously considering the 7660 as a printer to dedicate to
BW. B&H list it at ~ USD $150.  When I'm delirious I consider
getting an Epson 1280 to dedicate to BW  but I'd  really like to
get out of the 'science fair' mode for printing BW.

It would be excellent if Epson could come up with 'out-of-box' BW
in their next generation photo printers but that seems a fond hope.

Thanks,
JimD

At 04:09 AM 1/16/2004, Ed Mathews wrote:

>I'm not Paul, and I don't even play one on TV <g>.  But I do own a 7960.
>It consumes the gray ink cartridge at a very high rate, and the cost of
>ink is much higher than any Epson printer I've owned.