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7660 can't handle grain????

7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-17 by Mark Hahn

Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
true...

Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the smooth 
tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter of 
the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the prints 
under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests itself 
most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly shaded 
objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 seem 
rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution prior 
to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I figure 
out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output from 
T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.

thanks for any advice,

mark

Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-17 by Tyler Boley

More info. What driver? Quads or color? Never heard of this with a
x600 printer so it should be able to be resolved. No such problems
here with a 9600, same technology.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> true...
> 
> Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the smooth 
> tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter of 
> the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the prints 
> under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests itself 
> most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly shaded 
> objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 seem 
> rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution prior 
> to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I figure 
> out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output from 
> T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> 
> thanks for any advice,
> 
> mark

Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-17 by Mark Hahn

It is the hp driver supplied with the 7660 using the #59 gray 
cartridge.  maybe I can post some examples tonight.  the "lines" are 
certainly not in the digital image and most definitely are in the 
print.  I would be happy to have just gotten a defective printer, but 
as I said, under a loupe everything looks fine which makes it seem 
like a driver limitation.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> More info. What driver? Quads or color? Never heard of this with a
> x600 printer so it should be able to be resolved. No such problems
> here with a 9600, same technology.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> > true...
> > 
> > Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the 
smooth 
> > tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> > the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter 
of 
> > the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> > gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the 
prints 
> > under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> > pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests 
itself 
> > most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly 
shaded 
> > objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> > images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 
seem 
> > rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution 
prior 
> > to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> > Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I 
figure 
> > out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output 
from 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> > 
> > thanks for any advice,
> > 
> > mark

Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-17 by Mark Hahn

PS  More info: I saw the problem in a 6x9" print on hp Premium Plus 
glossy with a starting print resolution of about 400dpi and then 
tried upsampleing to 600dpi.  I also tried printint in both "Best" 
mode (600dpi) and "Max DPI" (600x4800dpi I believe).

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> More info. What driver? Quads or color? Never heard of this with a
> x600 printer so it should be able to be resolved. No such problems
> here with a 9600, same technology.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> > true...
> > 
> > Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the 
smooth 
> > tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> > the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter 
of 
> > the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> > gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the 
prints 
> > under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> > pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests 
itself 
> > most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly 
shaded 
> > objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> > images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 
seem 
> > rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution 
prior 
> > to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> > Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I 
figure 
> > out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output 
from 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> > 
> > thanks for any advice,
> > 
> > mark

Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-18 by Tyler Boley

Sorry, I misread your post. Automatically saw 7600 instead of 7660 and
assumed Epson. I briefly saw cannon output under a loupe once and
noticed a gridlike pattern.
Sorry I can't really offer any suggestions.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> It is the hp driver supplied with the 7660 using the #59 gray 
> cartridge.  maybe I can post some examples tonight.  the "lines" are 
> certainly not in the digital image and most definitely are in the 
> print.  I would be happy to have just gotten a defective printer, but 
> as I said, under a loupe everything looks fine which makes it seem 
> like a driver limitation.
> 
> mark
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > More info. What driver? Quads or color? Never heard of this with a
> > x600 printer so it should be able to be resolved. No such problems
> > here with a 9600, same technology.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> > <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > > Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> > > true...
> > > 
> > > Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the 
> smooth 
> > > tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> > > the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter 
> of 
> > > the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> > > gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the 
> prints 
> > > under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> > > pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests 
> itself 
> > > most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly 
> shaded 
> > > objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> > > images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 
> seem 
> > > rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution 
> prior 
> > > to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> > > Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I 
> figure 
> > > out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output 
> from 
> > > T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> > > 
> > > thanks for any advice,
> > > 
> > > mark

Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-19 by Radimus

Hi, Mark.  What print quality setting are you using?  I just cranked
out a B&W print on HP PPPG with the quality setting at Best and it has
what looks like microbanding going vertically across the print (the
print is landscape oriented).  Examining it with a loupe it is
actually a weave pattern.  Without a loupe it has the look that you
describe below.  However, with the quality set to "Maximum dpi" the
pattern goes away, but there is now an even finer microbanding going
horizontal to the print.  However, this artifact is only noticable to
me if I practically stick my nose in the print.

Rad

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> true...
> 
> Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the smooth 
> tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter of 
> the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the prints 
> under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests itself 
> most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly shaded 
> objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 seem 
> rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution prior 
> to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I figure 
> out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output from 
> T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> 
> thanks for any advice,
> 
> mark

update: Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-19 by Mark Hahn

I tried both, first the max, then the best, then upsampling to 
printer resolution... in each case it *changed* the problem, but 
didn't get rid of it.

Anyway, after hours of frustration by myself and then two hours of 
frustration with tech support I returned the print, BUT I ended up 
learning a few things about these printers that may be helpful.  
First thing, the printer's calibration routine is not that good.  If 
you get banding after the automatic calibration, a second or third 
calibration can make it better.  Makes me think that the calibration 
is some sort of initial condition limited control loop cycle so it is 
hit or miss whether one calibration will actually get you as "good as 
it gets."  Second, there is an transparent acetate optical tracking 
band that has to be clean so the print heads know where they are.  A 
damp q-tip is all it takes to clean this up and it adds to the 
printer's accuracy.  Third, hp is apparently shipping a lot of bad 
#59 b&w carts.  After returning my 7660 to the store I went and 
tested the floor models 7660 and 7960 just to see if there really was 
some difference with b&w.  I used my newest cartridge which actually 
gave horizontal banding at home and guess what, the store's 7660 and 
7960 both banded like old one so it seems that the real problem with 
my printer was that I had purchased two bad cartridges (from two 
different stores miles apart!).  As to differences, the 7960 looked 
much worse which I think dispells the rumors that b&w is better from 
the 7960.

HP said they will ship out some fresh carts so I am going to try 
again with a new 7660 this weekend.

So the moral of the story is that we still don't have hassle-free b&w 
unless we spend big bucks:(

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Radimus" 
<radimus@p...> wrote:
> Hi, Mark.  What print quality setting are you using?  I just cranked
> out a B&W print on HP PPPG with the quality setting at Best and it 
has
> what looks like microbanding going vertically across the print (the
> print is landscape oriented).  Examining it with a loupe it is
> actually a weave pattern.  Without a loupe it has the look that you
> describe below.  However, with the quality set to "Maximum dpi" the
> pattern goes away, but there is now an even finer microbanding going
> horizontal to the print.  However, this artifact is only noticable 
to
> me if I practically stick my nose in the print.
> 
> Rad
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> > true...
> > 
> > Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the 
smooth 
> > tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> > the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter 
of 
> > the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> > gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the 
prints 
> > under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> > pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests 
itself 
> > most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly 
shaded 
> > objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> > images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 
seem 
> > rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution 
prior 
> > to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> > Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I 
figure 
> > out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output 
from 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> > 
> > thanks for any advice,
> > 
> > mark

update: Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-19 by Radimus

I'll try some of those tricks on my 7660 and see what happens.  I'm
interested to hear how things go when you get the new cartridges and
printer this weekend.

Rad

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I tried both, first the max, then the best, then upsampling to 
> printer resolution... in each case it *changed* the problem, but 
> didn't get rid of it.
> 
> Anyway, after hours of frustration by myself and then two hours of 
> frustration with tech support I returned the print, BUT I ended up 
> learning a few things about these printers that may be helpful.  
> First thing, the printer's calibration routine is not that good.  If 
> you get banding after the automatic calibration, a second or third 
> calibration can make it better.  Makes me think that the calibration 
> is some sort of initial condition limited control loop cycle so it is 
> hit or miss whether one calibration will actually get you as "good as 
> it gets."  Second, there is an transparent acetate optical tracking 
> band that has to be clean so the print heads know where they are.  A 
> damp q-tip is all it takes to clean this up and it adds to the 
> printer's accuracy.  Third, hp is apparently shipping a lot of bad 
> #59 b&w carts.  After returning my 7660 to the store I went and 
> tested the floor models 7660 and 7960 just to see if there really was 
> some difference with b&w.  I used my newest cartridge which actually 
> gave horizontal banding at home and guess what, the store's 7660 and 
> 7960 both banded like old one so it seems that the real problem with 
> my printer was that I had purchased two bad cartridges (from two 
> different stores miles apart!).  As to differences, the 7960 looked 
> much worse which I think dispells the rumors that b&w is better from 
> the 7960.
> 
> HP said they will ship out some fresh carts so I am going to try 
> again with a new 7660 this weekend.
> 
> So the moral of the story is that we still don't have hassle-free b&w 
> unless we spend big bucks:(
> 
> mark
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Radimus" 
> <radimus@p...> wrote:
> > Hi, Mark.  What print quality setting are you using?  I just cranked
> > out a B&W print on HP PPPG with the quality setting at Best and it 
> has
> > what looks like microbanding going vertically across the print (the
> > print is landscape oriented).  Examining it with a loupe it is
> > actually a weave pattern.  Without a loupe it has the look that you
> > describe below.  However, with the quality set to "Maximum dpi" the
> > pattern goes away, but there is now an even finer microbanding going
> > horizontal to the print.  However, this artifact is only noticable 
> to
> > me if I practically stick my nose in the print.
> > 
> > Rad
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> > <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > > Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> > > true...
> > > 
> > > Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the 
> smooth 
> > > tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> > > the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter 
> of 
> > > the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> > > gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the 
> prints 
> > > under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> > > pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests 
> itself 
> > > most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly 
> shaded 
> > > objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> > > images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 
> seem 
> > > rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution 
> prior 
> > > to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> > > Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I 
> figure 
> > > out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output 
> from 
> > > T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> > > 
> > > thanks for any advice,
> > > 
> > > mark

update: Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-20 by Radimus

On my 7660 I ran a calibration and three cleanings.  My findings have
not changed very much.  With the quality setting at Best under a loupe
I see a herring-bone pattern of which an example can be seen on the
left here:

http://www.photo.net/comments/attachment/443167/printClose.jpg

With the quality setting to Maximum dpi my output looks very much like
 the sample on the right.  Here's another example of what I see on my
prints at max dpi:

http://www.photo.net/equipment/hp/hp7960/grayscalecompare1.jpg

As you can see in that example, there is a definite pattern compared
to the Canon sample.  What I'm seeing on my prints is that the pattern
will appear as extremely fine microbanding.  And I mean extremely
fine.  I need to view the print from 5 inches away to actually see it.  

Something else I found is that the high resolution of this printer
will bite you in the backside if you are printing from film scans and
have oversharpened the image and/or have hairline scratches in the
negative.  The former making the latter worse, obviously.

Rad

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Radimus"
<radimus@p...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I'll try some of those tricks on my 7660 and see what happens.  I'm
> interested to hear how things go when you get the new cartridges and
> printer this weekend.
> 
> Rad
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > I tried both, first the max, then the best, then upsampling to 
> > printer resolution... in each case it *changed* the problem, but 
> > didn't get rid of it.
> > 
> > Anyway, after hours of frustration by myself and then two hours of 
> > frustration with tech support I returned the print, BUT I ended up 
> > learning a few things about these printers that may be helpful.  
> > First thing, the printer's calibration routine is not that good.  If 
> > you get banding after the automatic calibration, a second or third 
> > calibration can make it better.  Makes me think that the calibration 
> > is some sort of initial condition limited control loop cycle so it is 
> > hit or miss whether one calibration will actually get you as "good as 
> > it gets."  Second, there is an transparent acetate optical tracking 
> > band that has to be clean so the print heads know where they are.  A 
> > damp q-tip is all it takes to clean this up and it adds to the 
> > printer's accuracy.  Third, hp is apparently shipping a lot of bad 
> > #59 b&w carts.  After returning my 7660 to the store I went and 
> > tested the floor models 7660 and 7960 just to see if there really was 
> > some difference with b&w.  I used my newest cartridge which actually 
> > gave horizontal banding at home and guess what, the store's 7660 and 
> > 7960 both banded like old one so it seems that the real problem with 
> > my printer was that I had purchased two bad cartridges (from two 
> > different stores miles apart!).  As to differences, the 7960 looked 
> > much worse which I think dispells the rumors that b&w is better from 
> > the 7960.
> > 
> > HP said they will ship out some fresh carts so I am going to try 
> > again with a new 7660 this weekend.
> > 
> > So the moral of the story is that we still don't have hassle-free b&w 
> > unless we spend big bucks:(
> > 
> > mark
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Radimus" 
> > <radimus@p...> wrote:
> > > Hi, Mark.  What print quality setting are you using?  I just cranked
> > > out a B&W print on HP PPPG with the quality setting at Best and it 
> > has
> > > what looks like microbanding going vertically across the print (the
> > > print is landscape oriented).  Examining it with a loupe it is
> > > actually a weave pattern.  Without a loupe it has the look that you
> > > describe below.  However, with the quality set to "Maximum dpi" the
> > > pattern goes away, but there is now an even finer microbanding going
> > > horizontal to the print.  However, this artifact is only noticable 
> > to
> > > me if I practically stick my nose in the print.
> > > 
> > > Rad
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> > > <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > > > Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good to be 
> > > > true...
> > > > 
> > > > Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All the 
> > smooth 
> > > > tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film scans 
> > > > the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random scatter 
> > of 
> > > > the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible soft 
> > > > gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at the 
> > prints 
> > > > under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the grain 
> > > > pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem manifests 
> > itself 
> > > > most in something like a face in a portrait or other smoothly 
> > shaded 
> > > > objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain free 
> > > > images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 1160 
> > seem 
> > > > rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer resolution 
> > prior 
> > > > to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct it.  
> > > > Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I 
> > figure 
> > > > out a work around I will be returning the printer as the output 
> > from 
> > > > T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> > > > 
> > > > thanks for any advice,
> > > > 
> > > > mark

examples posted: update: Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-20 by Mark Hahn

here is a link to a page showing the specific problems I had with my 
7660:

http://www.geocities.com/markhahn2000/7660test.html

examining samples that two list members sent to me shows no evidence 
of this type of problem.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Radimus" 
<radimus@p...> wrote:
> On my 7660 I ran a calibration and three cleanings.  My findings 
have
> not changed very much.  With the quality setting at Best under a 
loupe
> I see a herring-bone pattern of which an example can be seen on the
> left here:
> 
> http://www.photo.net/comments/attachment/443167/printClose.jpg
> 
> With the quality setting to Maximum dpi my output looks very much 
like
>  the sample on the right.  Here's another example of what I see on 
my
> prints at max dpi:
> 
> http://www.photo.net/equipment/hp/hp7960/grayscalecompare1.jpg
> 
> As you can see in that example, there is a definite pattern compared
> to the Canon sample.  What I'm seeing on my prints is that the 
pattern
> will appear as extremely fine microbanding.  And I mean extremely
> fine.  I need to view the print from 5 inches away to actually see 
it.  
> 
> Something else I found is that the high resolution of this printer
> will bite you in the backside if you are printing from film scans 
and
> have oversharpened the image and/or have hairline scratches in the
> negative.  The former making the latter worse, obviously.
> 
> Rad
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Radimus"
> <radimus@p...> wrote:
> > I'll try some of those tricks on my 7660 and see what happens.  
I'm
> > interested to hear how things go when you get the new cartridges 
and
> > printer this weekend.
> > 
> > Rad
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> > <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > > I tried both, first the max, then the best, then upsampling to 
> > > printer resolution... in each case it *changed* the problem, 
but 
> > > didn't get rid of it.
> > > 
> > > Anyway, after hours of frustration by myself and then two hours 
of 
> > > frustration with tech support I returned the print, BUT I ended 
up 
> > > learning a few things about these printers that may be 
helpful.  
> > > First thing, the printer's calibration routine is not that 
good.  If 
> > > you get banding after the automatic calibration, a second or 
third 
> > > calibration can make it better.  Makes me think that the 
calibration 
> > > is some sort of initial condition limited control loop cycle so 
it is 
> > > hit or miss whether one calibration will actually get you 
as "good as 
> > > it gets."  Second, there is an transparent acetate optical 
tracking 
> > > band that has to be clean so the print heads know where they 
are.  A 
> > > damp q-tip is all it takes to clean this up and it adds to the 
> > > printer's accuracy.  Third, hp is apparently shipping a lot of 
bad 
> > > #59 b&w carts.  After returning my 7660 to the store I went and 
> > > tested the floor models 7660 and 7960 just to see if there 
really was 
> > > some difference with b&w.  I used my newest cartridge which 
actually 
> > > gave horizontal banding at home and guess what, the store's 
7660 and 
> > > 7960 both banded like old one so it seems that the real problem 
with 
> > > my printer was that I had purchased two bad cartridges (from 
two 
> > > different stores miles apart!).  As to differences, the 7960 
looked 
> > > much worse which I think dispells the rumors that b&w is better 
from 
> > > the 7960.
> > > 
> > > HP said they will ship out some fresh carts so I am going to 
try 
> > > again with a new 7660 this weekend.
> > > 
> > > So the moral of the story is that we still don't have hassle-
free b&w 
> > > unless we spend big bucks:(
> > > 
> > > mark
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Radimus" 
> > > <radimus@p...> wrote:
> > > > Hi, Mark.  What print quality setting are you using?  I just 
cranked
> > > > out a B&W print on HP PPPG with the quality setting at Best 
and it 
> > > has
> > > > what looks like microbanding going vertically across the 
print (the
> > > > print is landscape oriented).  Examining it with a loupe it is
> > > > actually a weave pattern.  Without a loupe it has the look 
that you
> > > > describe below.  However, with the quality set to "Maximum 
dpi" the
> > > > pattern goes away, but there is now an even finer 
microbanding going
> > > > horizontal to the print.  However, this artifact is only 
noticable 
> > > to
> > > > me if I practically stick my nose in the print.
> > > > 
> > > > Rad
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark 
Hahn"
> > > > <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Ok, ...I guess they say that when something sounds too good 
to be 
> > > > > true...
> > > > > 
> > > > > Have made a bunch of b&w prints with my new hp 7660.  All 
the 
> > > smooth 
> > > > > tone digital images print out near perfectly, but from film 
scans 
> > > > > the "woven" dither pattern somehow blends with the random 
scatter 
> > > of 
> > > > > the grain and produces a hidious pattern of perceptible 
soft 
> > > > > gridlines which almost look like microbanding.  Looking at 
the 
> > > prints 
> > > > > under a loupe shows that it is some interaction between the 
grain 
> > > > > pattern and the dither pattern however.  The problem 
manifests 
> > > itself 
> > > > > most in something like a face in a portrait or other 
smoothly 
> > > shaded 
> > > > > objects and vanishes in more texture rich images or grain 
free 
> > > > > images.  By comparison, the posterization issues with my 
1160 
> > > seem 
> > > > > rather mild now.  I've tried upsampling to printer 
resolution 
> > > prior 
> > > > > to printings which changes the output, but doesn't correct 
it.  
> > > > > Anyone else seeing this?  Anyone have a solution?  Unless I 
> > > figure 
> > > > > out a work around I will be returning the printer as the 
output 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > from 
> > > > > T400CN scans are not suitible for hanging in a gallery.
> > > > > 
> > > > > thanks for any advice,
> > > > > 
> > > > > mark

examples posted: update: Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-21 by Clayton Jones

Hello Mark,

>here is a link to a page showing the specific problems I had with my 
>7660:
> 
>http://www.geocities.com/markhahn2000/7660test.html

I have several 7660 samples that someone sent to me, both cart
combinations on several papers, and the cross-hatch dither banding
appears in all of them, to varying degrees.  It requires a loupe to
see it.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

examples posted: update: Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-21 by Mark Hahn

These problems did not take a loupe to see.  They were very visible 
to everyone I showed them to.  I also got samples from a couple 
people and I do not see anything like this in any of their prints.  
As I said, the first digital source prints looked great, it was just 
the film scan prints, but I certainly can't take those to my gallery 
now can I?  Maybe the driver just can't handle grain, I don't know.  
Someone offered to print my image on their 7660 to see if they get 
the same results... I'll wait and see before buying a new printer.  
These are supposed to be higher resolution printers than my 1160 so 
there shouldn't be visible banding (right?), at least I wouldn't 
expect so, but my best 1160 prints can hang under gallery lighting 
and not be spotted as inkjet.  I was expecting the same from this 
printer... only without the hassles.

mark

...
> >here is a link to a page showing the specific problems I had with 
my 
> >7660:
> > 
> >http://www.geocities.com/markhahn2000/7660test.html
> 
> I have several 7660 samples that someone sent to me, both cart
> combinations on several papers, and the cross-hatch dither banding
> appears in all of them, to varying degrees.  It requires a loupe to
> see it.
...

Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-21 by Paul Murphy

Hi Mark, 
Sorry to hear you are having these problems with the HP 7660. I went 
back to have a look at prints I made from this printer and yes I am 
getting the cross hatch dither banding, but its only visible under a 
4x loupe. It is virtually impossible to see with the naked eye and 
certainly invisible under glass. All my prints came from images shot 
on a Canon 10D. 

Having read that your problems were with scanned images I went to my 
filing cabinet and pulled out some older shots that I had previously 
scanned on a Nikon 4000. I included shots with sky areas that have a 
fair bit of visible grain. These prints were no different to the 
digital source prints, they exhibited the same minute banding visible 
only under a loupe. 

I have noticed that different papers show it more or less clearly 
than others. If the paper has a slight texture to it (Ilford Pearl) 
it becomes part of the texture. On the HP paper it looks very uniform 
but still could be mistaken for paper texture. 

For me the banding falls into acceptable limits. However I was just 
thinking that I am on the original grey cartridge I installed when I 
got the printer. It's almost empty. Got alot of prints out of it. I 
will have to check again when I install a new one. If I do see the 
problems you are having I will post details here.

Paul.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> These problems did not take a loupe to see.  They were very visible 
> to everyone I showed them to.  I also got samples from a couple 
> people and I do not see anything like this in any of their prints.  
> As I said, the first digital source prints looked great, it was 
just 
> the film scan prints, but I certainly can't take those to my 
gallery 
> now can I?  Maybe the driver just can't handle grain, I don't 
know.  
> Someone offered to print my image on their 7660 to see if they get 
> the same results... I'll wait and see before buying a new printer.  
> These are supposed to be higher resolution printers than my 1160 so 
> there shouldn't be visible banding (right?), at least I wouldn't 
> expect so, but my best 1160 prints can hang under gallery lighting 
> and not be spotted as inkjet.  I was expecting the same from this 
> printer... only without the hassles.
> 
> mark
> 
> ...
> > >here is a link to a page showing the specific problems I had 
with 
> my 
> > >7660:
> > > 
> > >http://www.geocities.com/markhahn2000/7660test.html
> > 
> > I have several 7660 samples that someone sent to me, both cart
> > combinations on several papers, and the cross-hatch dither banding
> > appears in all of them, to varying degrees.  It requires a loupe 
to
> > see it.
> ...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: 7660 can't handle grain????

2004-02-21 by Ed Mathews

I'm sorry I didn't get into this discussion earlier.  I've been
swamped with work (sometimes real life gets in the way).
     I have a 7960 and this problem with the dither pattern that looks
like banding has been discussed at length on the printing board at
dpreview:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1003

     The problem with the 7960, which I would assume is the same problem
with the 7660, is that the driver over sharpens the image causing the
pattern.  HP is well aware of it and several people have been in contact
with them.  They have responded that they are working on a driver update
that will correct the issue, but it is not available yet.  With my 7960,
the pattern is "usually" only visible with a loupe, so I'm in no big
hurry for the fix.
     I have printed both digital images and scanned 35mm negatives, and
I see the pattern in both, but it is not any more pronounced in the
scanned images with my particular set-up.  Overall, my experience is
quite similar to that of Paul Murphy:  Usually visible with a loupe
only; uniform; looking like a texture; and more visible on some papers
than others.
     You may also want to check out this site:

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/

     There is a review of the 7960 there where they show the over
sharpening dither pattern as well.
     My guess would be that since this is a driver problem with the 7960
(and probably the 7660), it may be more pronounced on some OS/hardware
combinations than others, and it might be more of an issue with certain
digital files - depending on the origin and processing of the scan.  So
we see once again, as with the Epson printers, there is no definitive
way to predict exact results when there are so many software/hardware
combinations out there.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

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