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A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

2004-02-26 by Paul Murphy

A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

I started my photographic career over 20 years ago as a black & white 
printer. I spent a few years in the darkroom printing large numbers 
of prints for the photographers in a busy commercial studio before 
becoming one of those photographers. I always preferred to print my 
own b&w when I had the chance as I really enjoyed it.

Gradually I moved away from printing and eventually digital 
photography became a working reality. I made the switch to digital 
cameras only last year when I was finally convinced the technology 
was viable and cost effective compared to film. There was a lot of 
new stuff to learn, in fact I'm still learning and enjoying the 
process. It certainly keeps my brain active and the re-education has 
focused me on the creative process more then ever.

I got involved in digital printing a few years ago with Epson desktop 
printers.  As colour  printers they were excellent.  I had always 
sent out colour work to a lab, now it was pretty easy to get a print 
from a scanned negative that looked as though it had come from that 
lab.  I brought most of my colour work back in house. I did try 
printing black & white on these printers but was never happy with the 
result. Colour casts were the main problem, I could never get a 
neutral print and black ink only prints would never be accepted by 
clients used to those on glossy resin coated paper. So I left digital 
printing to colour work only and printed b&w the traditional way in 
the darkroom.

Wind forward to a few months ago. I read some articles in photography 
magazines about quadtone ink systems that piqued my interest. A 
thorough search on the internet yielded a lot of information. I knew 
I was in for a whole new learning experience. 

Firstly I equipped myself with an Epson 1160 and MIS VM Quadtone 
inks. It was straightforward to set up and get prints from. I used 
Epson Archival Matte and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper. Ok so these 
prints were not what I was used to from the darkroom. I had generally 
preferred gloss or lustre RC finish on my black & white work. Trying 
these types of papers (Ilford Gallerie Pearl for example) led to 
differential reflections with the pigment based inks that were 
unacceptable.  Holding one of the prints from the 1160 on matte paper 
next to a darkroom printed copy is like chalk and cheese. They are 
two very different media. This is what I needed to get my head 
around. The matte print when placed under a glass frame gives a 
lovely classic, timeless image and is clearly ideal for a large size 
exhibition print. Hold it in your hand and it looks a little lifeless 
and dull, frame it and it takes on a whole new character. 

On the internet I read about a new model printer from HP that claimed 
to deliver exceptional black & white prints on glossy paper using 
their optional grey cartridge. A lot of research led me to buying the 
HP 7660. Straight out of the box I got a print that closely matched 
those from the darkroom. I have spent a few weeks running prints 
through it with a variety of papers and have found it to be a 
terrific printer. The combination of HP's Premium Plus Glossy Paper 
with the grey cartridge has been tested by Wilhem Research to have a 
lifespan of 75 years. That's good enough for my clients and me.  I 
have had very good results using Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl, though 
that does not have the archival properties of the HP paper. However 
if you need prints that don't need to last a lifetime it's the paper 
to use.  The 7660 is limited by its output size compared to the 
larger Epson models. Hopefully HP will release an A3+ version in the 
future. I have not used my darkroom for black & white printing since 
I bought this printer.

My latest experience is with an Epson 1290 (1280 in the US) and MIS 
UT2 inkset. I decided to give this a try after reading about users 
experiences on this forum. Compared to the 1160, the prints are an 
improvement. Clearer, sharper images with better shadow detail and 
increased dynamic range.  I can also print on glossy surfaces; Epson 
Premium Semi-Gloss giving the best result and having, as I 
understand, an archival lifespan of 200 years. I recently went to a 
Man Ray exhibition currently showing in the Art Gallery of New South 
Wales (Australia) and was pleased to note that the quadtone prints I 
am making now on my 1290 with UT2 are similar in tone and finish to 
those on display there. The Man Ray prints date from the mid 1920s.

So what are my conclusions? I am convinced that I can retire my 
darkroom in the very near future and totally rely on digital printers 
for my black & white work.   There are two types of print media that 
although very different in appearance, offer photographers (and 
clients) a distinct choice. The quadtone pigmented ink on cotton rag 
paper when framed under glass looks elegant and timeless.  The RC 
glossy or lustre finish dye based print has the look and feel of a 
traditional darkroom print.  I like to use both where appropriate. 


This very forum has provided me with much valuable help and 
knowledge. I must say a big thank you to Paul Roark whose tireless 
work in this area and quick response to varied requests from many 
members is to be commended. There are many other members too; who 
provide knowledgeable and ready help for those learning this often 
difficult and sometimes frustrating process. 

Paul Murphy

Re: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

2004-02-26 by Roger Gillard

Paul,
          Thanks muchly for your comments. I have an Epson 1270 as my 
printer at the moment. I've been tempted to get an HP7960 for B and W after 
reading a review on photo-i website in the UK. Then I heard that the 
cheaper 7660 would do BW just as well!!!   The I heard that the HP Premium 
Photo Glossy that all the overseas people are using is not available in Oz. 
When I ask at the local computer stores that sell the 7960 and 7660 they 
know nothing about the different HP papers?  I see that Colourfast Photo 
Paper is selling in Oz. Is this the same as the Premium Glossy that the 
overseas people talk about??
             I have lots of old BW negs that I need to print. Setting up my 
darkroom is a drag (its the laundry at night), in fact I haven't printed a 
silver print once in the last three years and I don't really want to do it 
again.  Maybe I just have to go and buy a 7660 even though it will only do 
8x10's.

     Cheers,
                   Roger



At 07:35 AM 26/02/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:
>
>I started my photographic career over 20 years ago as a black & white
>printer. I spent a few years in the darkroom printing large numbers
>of prints for the photographers in a busy commercial studio before
>becoming one of those photographers. I always preferred to print my
>own b&w when I had the chance as I really enjoyed it.
>
>Gradually I moved away from printing and eventually digital
>photography became a working reality. I made the switch to digital
>cameras only last year when I was finally convinced the technology
>was viable and cost effective compared to film. There was a lot of
>new stuff to learn, in fact I'm still learning and enjoying the
>process. It certainly keeps my brain active and the re-education has
>focused me on the creative process more then ever.
>
>I got involved in digital printing a few years ago with Epson desktop
>printers.  As colour  printers they were excellent.  I had always
>sent out colour work to a lab, now it was pretty easy to get a print
>from a scanned negative that looked as though it had come from that
>lab.  I brought most of my colour work back in house. I did try
>printing black & white on these printers but was never happy with the
>result. Colour casts were the main problem, I could never get a
>neutral print and black ink only prints would never be accepted by
>clients used to those on glossy resin coated paper. So I left digital
>printing to colour work only and printed b&w the traditional way in
>the darkroom.
>
>Wind forward to a few months ago. I read some articles in photography
>magazines about quadtone ink systems that piqued my interest. A
>thorough search on the internet yielded a lot of information. I knew
>I was in for a whole new learning experience.
>
>Firstly I equipped myself with an Epson 1160 and MIS VM Quadtone
>inks. It was straightforward to set up and get prints from. I used
>Epson Archival Matte and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper. Ok so these
>prints were not what I was used to from the darkroom. I had generally
>preferred gloss or lustre RC finish on my black & white work. Trying
>these types of papers (Ilford Gallerie Pearl for example) led to
>differential reflections with the pigment based inks that were
>unacceptable.  Holding one of the prints from the 1160 on matte paper
>next to a darkroom printed copy is like chalk and cheese. They are
>two very different media. This is what I needed to get my head
>around. The matte print when placed under a glass frame gives a
>lovely classic, timeless image and is clearly ideal for a large size
>exhibition print. Hold it in your hand and it looks a little lifeless
>and dull, frame it and it takes on a whole new character.
>
>On the internet I read about a new model printer from HP that claimed
>to deliver exceptional black & white prints on glossy paper using
>their optional grey cartridge. A lot of research led me to buying the
>HP 7660. Straight out of the box I got a print that closely matched
>those from the darkroom. I have spent a few weeks running prints
>through it with a variety of papers and have found it to be a
>terrific printer. The combination of HP's Premium Plus Glossy Paper
>with the grey cartridge has been tested by Wilhem Research to have a
>lifespan of 75 years. That's good enough for my clients and me.  I
>have had very good results using Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl, though
>that does not have the archival properties of the HP paper. However
>if you need prints that don't need to last a lifetime it's the paper
>to use.  The 7660 is limited by its output size compared to the
>larger Epson models. Hopefully HP will release an A3+ version in the
>future. I have not used my darkroom for black & white printing since
>I bought this printer.
>
>My latest experience is with an Epson 1290 (1280 in the US) and MIS
>UT2 inkset. I decided to give this a try after reading about users
>experiences on this forum. Compared to the 1160, the prints are an
>improvement. Clearer, sharper images with better shadow detail and
>increased dynamic range.  I can also print on glossy surfaces; Epson
>Premium Semi-Gloss giving the best result and having, as I
>understand, an archival lifespan of 200 years. I recently went to a
>Man Ray exhibition currently showing in the Art Gallery of New South
>Wales (Australia) and was pleased to note that the quadtone prints I
>am making now on my 1290 with UT2 are similar in tone and finish to
>those on display there. The Man Ray prints date from the mid 1920s.
>
>So what are my conclusions? I am convinced that I can retire my
>darkroom in the very near future and totally rely on digital printers
>for my black & white work.   There are two types of print media that
>although very different in appearance, offer photographers (and
>clients) a distinct choice. The quadtone pigmented ink on cotton rag
>paper when framed under glass looks elegant and timeless.  The RC
>glossy or lustre finish dye based print has the look and feel of a
>traditional darkroom print.  I like to use both where appropriate.
>
>
>This very forum has provided me with much valuable help and
>knowledge. I must say a big thank you to Paul Roark whose tireless
>work in this area and quick response to varied requests from many
>members is to be commended. There are many other members too; who
>provide knowledgeable and ready help for those learning this often
>difficult and sometimes frustrating process.
>
>Paul Murphy
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
>they are often being updated.
>
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
>and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger and Gwyn Gillard                                    rgg@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

2004-02-26 by Joe Dempsey

This post has convinced me to buy an Epcon 1280. It seems this is the most
popular and widely used printer for BW output. I have a 2200, but need the
capability for color output for the advertising side of my business. From
what I've read, BW output for the 2200 is still a work-in-progress and yet
to yield universal satisfactory results in BW output, versus the 1280 which
has a ton of users and a solid track record. Am I on the right track?
Thanks!
Joe
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Paul Murphy [mailto:psmurnan@yahoo.com.au]
  Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 1:35 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] A photographer’s thoughts on digital black & white
printing:


  A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

  I started my photographic career over 20 years ago as a black & white
  printer. I spent a few years in the darkroom printing large numbers
  of prints for the photographers in a busy commercial studio before
  becoming one of those photographers. I always preferred to print my
  own b&w when I had the chance as I really enjoyed it.

  Gradually I moved away from printing and eventually digital
  photography became a working reality. I made the switch to digital
  cameras only last year when I was finally convinced the technology
  was viable and cost effective compared to film. There was a lot of
  new stuff to learn, in fact I'm still learning and enjoying the
  process. It certainly keeps my brain active and the re-education has
  focused me on the creative process more then ever.

  I got involved in digital printing a few years ago with Epson desktop
  printers.  As colour  printers they were excellent.  I had always
  sent out colour work to a lab, now it was pretty easy to get a print
  from a scanned negative that looked as though it had come from that
  lab.  I brought most of my colour work back in house. I did try
  printing black & white on these printers but was never happy with the
  result. Colour casts were the main problem, I could never get a
  neutral print and black ink only prints would never be accepted by
  clients used to those on glossy resin coated paper. So I left digital
  printing to colour work only and printed b&w the traditional way in
  the darkroom.

  Wind forward to a few months ago. I read some articles in photography
  magazines about quadtone ink systems that piqued my interest. A
  thorough search on the internet yielded a lot of information. I knew
  I was in for a whole new learning experience.

  Firstly I equipped myself with an Epson 1160 and MIS VM Quadtone
  inks. It was straightforward to set up and get prints from. I used
  Epson Archival Matte and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper. Ok so these
  prints were not what I was used to from the darkroom. I had generally
  preferred gloss or lustre RC finish on my black & white work. Trying
  these types of papers (Ilford Gallerie Pearl for example) led to
  differential reflections with the pigment based inks that were
  unacceptable.  Holding one of the prints from the 1160 on matte paper
  next to a darkroom printed copy is like chalk and cheese. They are
  two very different media. This is what I needed to get my head
  around. The matte print when placed under a glass frame gives a
  lovely classic, timeless image and is clearly ideal for a large size
  exhibition print. Hold it in your hand and it looks a little lifeless
  and dull, frame it and it takes on a whole new character.

  On the internet I read about a new model printer from HP that claimed
  to deliver exceptional black & white prints on glossy paper using
  their optional grey cartridge. A lot of research led me to buying the
  HP 7660. Straight out of the box I got a print that closely matched
  those from the darkroom. I have spent a few weeks running prints
  through it with a variety of papers and have found it to be a
  terrific printer. The combination of HP's Premium Plus Glossy Paper
  with the grey cartridge has been tested by Wilhem Research to have a
  lifespan of 75 years. That's good enough for my clients and me.  I
  have had very good results using Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl, though
  that does not have the archival properties of the HP paper. However
  if you need prints that don't need to last a lifetime it's the paper
  to use.  The 7660 is limited by its output size compared to the
  larger Epson models. Hopefully HP will release an A3+ version in the
  future. I have not used my darkroom for black & white printing since
  I bought this printer.

  My latest experience is with an Epson 1290 (1280 in the US) and MIS
  UT2 inkset. I decided to give this a try after reading about users
  experiences on this forum. Compared to the 1160, the prints are an
  improvement. Clearer, sharper images with better shadow detail and
  increased dynamic range.  I can also print on glossy surfaces; Epson
  Premium Semi-Gloss giving the best result and having, as I
  understand, an archival lifespan of 200 years. I recently went to a
  Man Ray exhibition currently showing in the Art Gallery of New South
  Wales (Australia) and was pleased to note that the quadtone prints I
  am making now on my 1290 with UT2 are similar in tone and finish to
  those on display there. The Man Ray prints date from the mid 1920s.

  So what are my conclusions? I am convinced that I can retire my
  darkroom in the very near future and totally rely on digital printers
  for my black & white work.   There are two types of print media that
  although very different in appearance, offer photographers (and
  clients) a distinct choice. The quadtone pigmented ink on cotton rag
  paper when framed under glass looks elegant and timeless.  The RC
  glossy or lustre finish dye based print has the look and feel of a
  traditional darkroom print.  I like to use both where appropriate.


  This very forum has provided me with much valuable help and
  knowledge. I must say a big thank you to Paul Roark whose tireless
  work in this area and quick response to varied requests from many
  members is to be commended. There are many other members too; who
  provide knowledgeable and ready help for those learning this often
  difficult and sometimes frustrating process.

  Paul Murphy




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/

    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

2004-02-26 by Paul Murphy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Dempsey" 
<jdempsey@c...> wrote:
> This post has convinced me to buy an Epcon 1280. It seems this is 
the most
> popular and widely used printer for BW output. I have a 2200, but 
need the
> capability for color output for the advertising side of my 
business. From
> what I've read, BW output for the 2200 is still a work-in-progress 
and yet
> to yield universal satisfactory results in BW output, versus the 
1280 which
> has a ton of users and a solid track record. Am I on the right 
track?
> Thanks!
> Joe

Hi Joe, just a thought. There is a way of getting an excellent b&w 
print from the 2200 using Clayton Jones' black only printing 
method.The technique still allows you to keep your colour inks in 
place and just replace the Epson black with MIS Eboni. This means you 
can still continue to print colour on the one printer.
Have a look here 
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm

I have a sample print he sent me and it is very close to what I can 
get on my 1290 with UT2. Similar, but different and yet uniquely 
beautiful.

It may be worth a try before spending the bucks on a new system.
Regards,
Paul.

Paul Murphy
Sydney
Australia

RE: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital bl ack & white printing:

2004-02-26 by Paul Roark

Paul,

You'll be happy to hear that I'll soon have a 1290 here for writing curves.
The 1280 UT2 curves are not quite right for it.  So, the 1290 system will
get even better soon.

PermaJet's new papers are also going to be launched soon.  Its "Alpha
Natural White" is now at the top of my matte paper list.  It and Epson's
UltraSmooth (aka Scrapbook & Premier Art Hot Press) are the only cotton
based, non-optically-brightened, non-flaking papers I know of, but the Alpha
has a dmax close to PhotoRag.  So, the papers are really getting close. 

We need more buffered glossy papers (like the Epson Premium line) and glossy
papers with no bronzing that are better than Epson Glossy Paper (there may
be one).

On the "to do" list now is bust Adobe's monopoly at least for B&W workers.
Digital Light & Color is there, and I'm going to try to convince Microsoft
to support curves.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
____________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Murphy [mailto:psmurnan@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:35 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white
printing:

A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

I started my photographic career over 20 years ago as a black & white 
printer. I spent a few years in the darkroom printing large numbers 
of prints for the photographers in a busy commercial studio before 
becoming one of those photographers. I always preferred to print my 
own b&w when I had the chance as I really enjoyed it.

Gradually I moved away from printing and eventually digital 
photography became a working reality. I made the switch to digital 
cameras only last year when I was finally convinced the technology 
was viable and cost effective compared to film. There was a lot of 
new stuff to learn, in fact I'm still learning and enjoying the 
process. It certainly keeps my brain active and the re-education has 
focused me on the creative process more then ever.

I got involved in digital printing a few years ago with Epson desktop 
printers.  As colour  printers they were excellent.  I had always 
sent out colour work to a lab, now it was pretty easy to get a print 
from a scanned negative that looked as though it had come from that 
lab.  I brought most of my colour work back in house. I did try 
printing black & white on these printers but was never happy with the 
result. Colour casts were the main problem, I could never get a 
neutral print and black ink only prints would never be accepted by 
clients used to those on glossy resin coated paper. So I left digital 
printing to colour work only and printed b&w the traditional way in 
the darkroom.

Wind forward to a few months ago. I read some articles in photography 
magazines about quadtone ink systems that piqued my interest. A 
thorough search on the internet yielded a lot of information. I knew 
I was in for a whole new learning experience. 

Firstly I equipped myself with an Epson 1160 and MIS VM Quadtone 
inks. It was straightforward to set up and get prints from. I used 
Epson Archival Matte and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper. Ok so these 
prints were not what I was used to from the darkroom. I had generally 
preferred gloss or lustre RC finish on my black & white work. Trying 
these types of papers (Ilford Gallerie Pearl for example) led to 
differential reflections with the pigment based inks that were 
unacceptable.  Holding one of the prints from the 1160 on matte paper 
next to a darkroom printed copy is like chalk and cheese. They are 
two very different media. This is what I needed to get my head 
around. The matte print when placed under a glass frame gives a 
lovely classic, timeless image and is clearly ideal for a large size 
exhibition print. Hold it in your hand and it looks a little lifeless 
and dull, frame it and it takes on a whole new character. 

On the internet I read about a new model printer from HP that claimed 
to deliver exceptional black & white prints on glossy paper using 
their optional grey cartridge. A lot of research led me to buying the 
HP 7660. Straight out of the box I got a print that closely matched 
those from the darkroom. I have spent a few weeks running prints 
through it with a variety of papers and have found it to be a 
terrific printer. The combination of HP's Premium Plus Glossy Paper 
with the grey cartridge has been tested by Wilhem Research to have a 
lifespan of 75 years. That's good enough for my clients and me.  I 
have had very good results using Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl, though 
that does not have the archival properties of the HP paper. However 
if you need prints that don't need to last a lifetime it's the paper 
to use.  The 7660 is limited by its output size compared to the 
larger Epson models. Hopefully HP will release an A3+ version in the 
future. I have not used my darkroom for black & white printing since 
I bought this printer.

My latest experience is with an Epson 1290 (1280 in the US) and MIS 
UT2 inkset. I decided to give this a try after reading about users 
experiences on this forum. Compared to the 1160, the prints are an 
improvement. Clearer, sharper images with better shadow detail and 
increased dynamic range.  I can also print on glossy surfaces; Epson 
Premium Semi-Gloss giving the best result and having, as I 
understand, an archival lifespan of 200 years. I recently went to a 
Man Ray exhibition currently showing in the Art Gallery of New South 
Wales (Australia) and was pleased to note that the quadtone prints I 
am making now on my 1290 with UT2 are similar in tone and finish to 
those on display there. The Man Ray prints date from the mid 1920s.

So what are my conclusions? I am convinced that I can retire my 
darkroom in the very near future and totally rely on digital printers 
for my black & white work.   There are two types of print media that 
although very different in appearance, offer photographers (and 
clients) a distinct choice. The quadtone pigmented ink on cotton rag 
paper when framed under glass looks elegant and timeless.  The RC 
glossy or lustre finish dye based print has the look and feel of a 
traditional darkroom print.  I like to use both where appropriate. 


This very forum has provided me with much valuable help and 
knowledge. I must say a big thank you to Paul Roark whose tireless 
work in this area and quick response to varied requests from many 
members is to be commended. There are many other members too; who 
provide knowledgeable and ready help for those learning this often 
difficult and sometimes frustrating process. 

Paul Murphy




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RE: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

2004-02-26 by Joe Dempsey

Paul:
Thanks for the info ... if I get out bid on ebay, that will solve the
problem and I will give the 2200 a shot.
Joe
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Paul Murphy [mailto:psmurnan@...]
  Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:35 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital black &
white printing:


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Dempsey"
  <jdempsey@c...> wrote:
  > This post has convinced me to buy an Epcon 1280. It seems this is
  the most
  > popular and widely used printer for BW output. I have a 2200, but
  need the
  > capability for color output for the advertising side of my
  business. From
  > what I've read, BW output for the 2200 is still a work-in-progress
  and yet
  > to yield universal satisfactory results in BW output, versus the
  1280 which
  > has a ton of users and a solid track record. Am I on the right
  track?
  > Thanks!
  > Joe

  Hi Joe, just a thought. There is a way of getting an excellent b&w
  print from the 2200 using Clayton Jones' black only printing
  method.The technique still allows you to keep your colour inks in
  place and just replace the Epson black with MIS Eboni. This means you
  can still continue to print colour on the one printer.
  Have a look here
  http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm

  I have a sample print he sent me and it is very close to what I can
  get on my 1290 with UT2. Similar, but different and yet uniquely
  beautiful.

  It may be worth a try before spending the bucks on a new system.
  Regards,
  Paul.

  Paul Murphy
  Sydney
  Australia



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
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Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] A photographer's thoughts on digital black & white printing:

2004-02-26 by Mark Hahn

If you buy imageprint you would not need the 1280 and even though it 
seems expensive, if you factor in the hassle of running two printers 
etc. etc. it ends up being a bargain (ok, mis inks are dirt cheap, 
but still CFS etc. are a pain compared to using off the shelf epson 
inks).

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Dempsey" 
<jdempsey@c...> wrote:
> This post has convinced me to buy an Epcon 1280. It seems this is 
the most
> popular and widely used printer for BW output. I have a 2200, but 
need the
> capability for color output for the advertising side of my 
business. From
> what I've read, BW output for the 2200 is still a work-in-progress 
and yet
> to yield universal satisfactory results in BW output, versus the 
1280 which
> has a ton of users and a solid track record. Am I on the right 
track?
> Thanks!
> Joe

RE: [Digital BW] RE:_[Digital_BW]_A_photographer's_thoughts_on_digital_black_&_white_printing:

2004-02-26 by Paul Roark

Tom,
 
>Any release date on the "Alpha Natural White"?

Jobo, which will carry the Permajet papers, thought it's dealers would have
it about 6 weeks.  Adorama is apparently one of those dealers likely to
carry the paper.  So, hopefully, the price will not be too high.  Permajet
told me they were able to hold costs down substantiall below their last
papers.
 
So, we shall see ...

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] RE:_[Digital_BW]_A_photographer's_thoughts_on_digital_black_&_white_printing:

2004-02-27 by Paul Roark

Joe,

>Now that you have cited the Permajet paper as your
>paper of choice, you have piqued my interest.  ...
>...why you now prefer this new paper?  

These are the factors:

1. Cotton, buffered and acid-free for longevity.

2. No optical brightening agents ("OBAs").  These coating additives
(typically titanium dioxide) convert UV to visible light.  They give the
paper a very bright white appearance -- which can be good for cool images,
but not so good for warm ink tones.  Unfortunately, OBAs burn out and turn
yellow or leave the paper looking relatively yellow.  This will make the
print appear to be deteriorating.  Also, the brighteners, as they burn out,
put out very reactive oxidizers.  That is what wrecked the older RC photo
papers.  To mop these up, the photo companies added antioxidants.  Then
these yellowed.  Now they have, hopefully, better antioxidants.  However, I
prefer to just avoid these OBAs in the first place.

3. Non-flaking surface.  Most cotton papers have a problem with "dusting" or
"flaking."  This can be largely avoided if the paper is brushed or wiped off
first, but I'd rather not have to do this.  Also, with roll paper, it is
hard to wipe off the surface.  Moreover, I think flaking is a warning that
the paper coating is not well attached to the underlying substrate.  I worry
that it is the "canary in the coal mine" that could indicate trouble down
the road.

4. Good dmax.  Both Permajet Alpha and Epson UltraSmooth (aka Scrapbook and
Premier Art Hot Press) satisfy 1 - 3, above.  However, whereas UltraSmooth,
like several other good cotton papers, has a dmax in the 1.60 - 1.62 range,
the Alpha samples I've tested are in the 1.67 - 1.71 range.  This is in the
EEM and PhotoRag class, and it makes a difference in some photos.  (Note
that lots of cotton papers have dmax's of less than 1.6.  A year ago I was
excited to have UltraSmooth.)

5. Finally, Alpha has the nice 300 gsm feel, like the 300 weight PhotoRag.
When matted this really doesn't matter, but if you just hand a person an
un-mounted print, the feel of these thicker papers does convey feeling of
quality.

I hope the final production versions meet these expectations.

I'm hopeful that we'll have a number of excellent papers come out over the
next few years.  So, 6 months from now some other paper may be my favorite.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

US vs. European Epson Models

2004-02-27 by Chuck Peacock

Does anyone out there have a clue as to why Epson markets different
printers in the US and Europe?

    I used to think the 1280 and 1290 were there same with different labels,
ditto the 2100 and 2200.

    Now Paul says the curves for the 1280 don't work quite right for the
1290 and someone stated that the 2100 has a CD printing tray that is lacking
is the 2200.

    What is the logic behind this marketing?

Chuck Peacock


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] US vs. European Epson Models

2004-02-27 by Martin Sluka

At 00:33 -0500 27.2.2004, Chuck Peacock wrote:
*******************************************

>    What is the logic behind this marketing?

What is logic behind ANY marketing?

To think about any sense of any marketing decision is only and only 
lack of time.

Martin
--

Re: [Digital BW] RE:_[Digital_BW]_A_photographer's_thoughts_on_digital_black_&_white_printing:

2004-02-27 by Richard Vanek

Paul,

"Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> Both Permajet Alpha and Epson UltraSmooth (aka Scrapbook and
> ...
> 5. Finally, Alpha has the nice 300 gsm feel, like the 300 weight 

You are talking about Permajet Alpha, but on their web pages I can't 
find such a paper. I only see:

Artist Classic  210gsm
Museum Classic 310gsm
Parchment Classic 285gsm
Papyrus Classic 300gsm
Portrait Classic 300gsm
Duplex Portrait Classic 320gsm
Matt Plus 245gsm
Proofing Paper 160gsm
Sided Lusture 285gsm
Belgian Linen 400gsm
Instant Dry 271 Gloss 271gsm
Instant Dry 271 Oyster 271gsm
OHP Film 100µ

Which one did you mean?
Thank you very much for your answer.

---
richard vanek
http://piskoftak.com/

RE: [Digital BW] RE:_[Digital_BW]_A_photographer's_thoughts_on_digital_black_&_white_printing:

2004-02-27 by Paul Roark

Richard,

>"Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>> 
>> Both Permajet Alpha and Epson UltraSmooth (aka Scrapbook and
>> ...
>> 5. Finally, Alpha has the nice 300 gsm feel, like the 300 weight 

>You are talking about Permajet Alpha, but on their web pages I can't 
>find such a paper. ...

The new line of PermaJet papers is not listed yet.  At least PermaJet
finally named the paper.  PMA was supposed to be the place they would
formally introduce the new line.  However, Jobo tells me to expect a 6 week
delay.

(So, for now UltraSmooth stays in my 7500.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

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