Digital BW, The Print

Hi Clayton,

I played around with BO on Ultrasmooth/PremierArt.  I had no contrast 
problems, perhaps because of my workflow.  I have been using ImagePrint and work in 
Photoshop CS as Untagged Gray.  Before printing in IP, I assign Gray Gamma 2.2. 
 I did the same in BO and found them to match my IP prints exactly.  Since 
Gray Gamma 2.2 adds more contast to the image, I imagine that this is similar to 
your adjustment curve approach.

I used the Epson ink for my experiments.  (Have not ordered Eboni Black yet.) 
 

Why do you recommend MIS Eboni?

Can your BO approach be used on glossy papers also?  There seems to be a 
difference of opinions on that issue.  If so, which black do you recommend?

I am planning on the Epson 4000 and would assume BO would even be better on 
that model.  It would be nice not to incur the extra cost for the IP upgrade.

So far, I am finding BO terrific.  Thanks for your hard work.

Helene


>Anybody using BO printing on the 2200 with Eboni Black on 
>Ultrasmooth paper?
>How do the results on Ultrasmooth compare with other papers 
>you have used?

I have tried it with the Premier Art Hot Press which (I think) Paul
Roark says is the same as Ultrasmooth.  It's very nice paper, but I
found it to have less contrast than the EEM and PhotoRag papers which
have been my standards for a long time.  I needed to apply an
adjustment curve to the image to make it match the print on the other
papers.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helene,

I posted this awhile ago.  Below are scans of prints I made on Epson 
Premium Semigloss with a 2200 and BO printing using both Epson PK and 
Eboni K.  The Eboni prints neutral, but will rub off if not sprayed.  
It will look dull and flat right out of the printer, but after spraying 
looks beautiful with increased dmax.  There will also be some slight 
gloss differential if you have any significant coverage at 100% black.  
The Epson PK produces a very warm tone as you can see from the scan.

Carl

Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg

Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg



On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 08:14  AM, grdglass@... wrote:

> Hi Clayton,
>
> I played around with BO on Ultrasmooth/PremierArt.  I had no contrast
> problems, perhaps because of my workflow.  I have been using 
> ImagePrint and work in
> Photoshop CS as Untagged Gray.  Before printing in IP, I assign Gray 
> Gamma 2.2.
>  I did the same in BO and found them to match my IP prints exactly.  
> Since
> Gray Gamma 2.2 adds more contast to the image, I imagine that this is 
> similar to
> your adjustment curve approach.
>
> I used the Epson ink for my experiments.  (Have not ordered Eboni 
> Black yet.)
>
>
> Why do you recommend MIS Eboni?
>
> Can your BO approach be used on glossy papers also?  There seems to be 
> a
> difference of opinions on that issue.  If so, which black do you 
> recommend?
>
> I am planning on the Epson 4000 and would assume BO would even be 
> better on
> that model.  It would be nice not to incur the extra cost for the IP 
> upgrade.
>
> So far, I am finding BO terrific.  Thanks for your hard work.
>
> Helene



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carl,

Thanks for the links.

With regard to the Epson PK, I see you sprayed it with PremierArt 
Print Shield also.

Did you spray it because it rubbed off?  To increase dmax?  To reduce 
gloss differential?  Or, just because you liked it better?

Helene

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Helene,
> 
> I posted this awhile ago.  Below are scans of prints I made on 
Epson 
> Premium Semigloss with a 2200 and BO printing using both Epson PK 
and 
> Eboni K.  The Eboni prints neutral, but will rub off if not 
sprayed.  
> It will look dull and flat right out of the printer, but after 
spraying 
> looks beautiful with increased dmax.  There will also be some 
slight 
> gloss differential if you have any significant coverage at 100% 
black.  
> The Epson PK produces a very warm tone as you can see from the scan.
> 
> Carl
> 
> Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg
> 
> Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 08:14  AM, grdglass@a... wrote:
> 
> > Hi Clayton,
> >
> > I played around with BO on Ultrasmooth/PremierArt.  I had no 
contrast
> > problems, perhaps because of my workflow.  I have been using 
> > ImagePrint and work in
> > Photoshop CS as Untagged Gray.  Before printing in IP, I assign 
Gray 
> > Gamma 2.2.
> >  I did the same in BO and found them to match my IP prints 
exactly.  
> > Since
> > Gray Gamma 2.2 adds more contast to the image, I imagine that 
this is 
> > similar to
> > your adjustment curve approach.
> >
> > I used the Epson ink for my experiments.  (Have not ordered Eboni 
> > Black yet.)
> >
> >
> > Why do you recommend MIS Eboni?
> >
> > Can your BO approach be used on glossy papers also?  There seems 
to be 
> > a
> > difference of opinions on that issue.  If so, which black do you 
> > recommend?
> >
> > I am planning on the Epson 4000 and would assume BO would even be 
> > better on
> > that model.  It would be nice not to incur the extra cost for the 
IP 

> > upgrade.
> >
> > So far, I am finding BO terrific.  Thanks for your hard work.
> >
> > Helene
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helene,

I liked the appearance of the surface better after spraying and it 
eliminated some slight bronzing with the PK.

Carl

On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 11:24  AM, grdglass wrote:

> Carl,
>
> Thanks for the links.
>
> With regard to the Epson PK, I see you sprayed it with PremierArt
> Print Shield also.
>
> Did you spray it because it rubbed off?  To increase dmax?  To reduce
> gloss differential?  Or, just because you liked it better?
>
> Helene
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>> Helene,
>>
>> I posted this awhile ago.  Below are scans of prints I made on
> Epson
>> Premium Semigloss with a 2200 and BO printing using both Epson PK
> and
>> Eboni K.  The Eboni prints neutral, but will rub off if not
> sprayed.
>> It will look dull and flat right out of the printer, but after
> spraying
>> looks beautiful with increased dmax.  There will also be some
> slight
>> gloss differential if you have any significant coverage at 100%
> black.
>> The Epson PK produces a very warm tone as you can see from the scan.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg
>>
>> Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt PrintShield
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 08:14  AM, grdglass@a... wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Clayton,
>>>
>>> I played around with BO on Ultrasmooth/PremierArt.  I had no
> contrast
>>> problems, perhaps because of my workflow.  I have been using
>>> ImagePrint and work in
>>> Photoshop CS as Untagged Gray.  Before printing in IP, I assign
> Gray
>>> Gamma 2.2.
>>>  I did the same in BO and found them to match my IP prints
> exactly.
>>> Since
>>> Gray Gamma 2.2 adds more contast to the image, I imagine that
> this is
>>> similar to
>>> your adjustment curve approach.
>>>
>>> I used the Epson ink for my experiments.  (Have not ordered Eboni
>>> Black yet.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you recommend MIS Eboni?
>>>
>>> Can your BO approach be used on glossy papers also?  There seems
> to be
>>> a
>>> difference of opinions on that issue.  If so, which black do you
>>> recommend?
>>>
>>> I am planning on the Epson 4000 and would assume BO would even be
>>> better on
>>> that model.  It would be nice not to incur the extra cost for the
> IP
>>> upgrade.
>>>
>>> So far, I am finding BO terrific.  Thanks for your hard work.
>>>
>>> Helene

I want to make sure i get it right before going out
and buying the ebony ink for my 2200. From what i've
seen, you get the best and most neutral black and
white print from the 2200 when using the eboni black
ink and BO printing... does the print still need to be
sprayed if it's on matte paper? the velvet fine art or
enhanced matte? and what do you spray it with? also,
is there anything i should know about the eboni ink
and how to install it/clean in my 2200? Do i have to
download something, or does it work the same as the
matte black?
Thanks so much! I am really looking foward to getting
started on this today and an advice would be greatly
appreciated.
Julie

--- Carl Schofield <scho@...> wrote:
> Helene,
> 
> I posted this awhile ago.  Below are scans of prints
> I made on Epson 
> Premium Semigloss with a 2200 and BO printing using
> both Epson PK and 
> Eboni K.  The Eboni prints neutral, but will rub off
> if not sprayed.  
> It will look dull and flat right out of the printer,
> but after spraying 
> looks beautiful with increased dmax.  There will
> also be some slight 
> gloss differential if you have any significant
> coverage at 100% black.  
> The Epson PK produces a very warm tone as you can
> see from the scan.
> 
> Carl
> 
> Eboni on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt
> PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/Eboni.jpg
> 
> Epson PK on semigloss, sprayed with PremierArt
> PrintShield
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/PK.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 08:14  AM,
> grdglass@... wrote:
> 
> > Hi Clayton,
> >
> > I played around with BO on Ultrasmooth/PremierArt.
>  I had no contrast
> > problems, perhaps because of my workflow.  I have
> been using 
> > ImagePrint and work in
> > Photoshop CS as Untagged Gray.  Before printing in
> IP, I assign Gray 
> > Gamma 2.2.
> >  I did the same in BO and found them to match my
> IP prints exactly.  
> > Since
> > Gray Gamma 2.2 adds more contast to the image, I
> imagine that this is 
> > similar to
> > your adjustment curve approach.
> >
> > I used the Epson ink for my experiments.  (Have
> not ordered Eboni 
> > Black yet.)
> >
> >
> > Why do you recommend MIS Eboni?
> >
> > Can your BO approach be used on glossy papers
> also?  There seems to be 
> > a
> > difference of opinions on that issue.  If so,
> which black do you 
> > recommend?
> >
> > I am planning on the Epson 4000 and would assume
> BO would even be 
> > better on
> > that model.  It would be nice not to incur the
> extra cost for the IP 
> > upgrade.
> >
> > So far, I am finding BO terrific.  Thanks for your
> hard work.
> >
> > Helene
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 

__________________________________
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Tuesday, March 2, 2004, 9:11:04 AM, you wrote:

js> I want to make sure i get it right before going out
js> and buying the ebony ink for my 2200. From what i've
js> seen, you get the best and most neutral black and
js> white print from the 2200 when using the eboni black
js> ink and BO printing...

See Clayton Jone's early thread but the "tone" in regards to coolness
and warmth depends mostly on the paper used.  EEM and PR give nice
slightly warm prints.

js> does the print still need to be
js> sprayed if it's on matte paper? the velvet fine art or
js> enhanced matte? and what do you spray it with?

No, I never do.  It does not smear on matte papers, if that what you
are asking.  Some people still like to spray matte papers and with
Eboni you can but it's not necessary.

js> also,
js> is there anything i should know about the eboni ink
js> and how to install it/clean in my 2200?

No, just do a couple of cleaning cycles and nozzle checks when you
first install the cart.

js> Do i have to
js> download something, or does it work the same as the
js> matte black?

Follow Clayton's link for basic details, but other than setting the
driver for BO it's pretty much the same.
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm

js> Thanks so much! I am really looking foward to getting
js> started on this today and an advice would be greatly
js> appreciated.
js> Julie



-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

A few points on installing and using the 2200 Eboni cartridge:
1.There is a piece of yellow tape on top that covers a small vent hole 
in the cartridge - you should remove this tape before installing the 
cartridge.
2. Do not shake the cartridge prior to installation as recommended for 
the Epson carts.  The lower viscosity of the Eboni might produce 
excessive foaming and air blocks if it is shaken up.
3. Use all of the Eboni before switching back to Epson matte K or Photo 
K.  The MIS carts do not have self sealing poppet valves, so if you do 
remove a partially used Eboni cart you will have to seal the bottom 
hole or there will be a lot of leakage.

On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 12:11  PM, julie stapen wrote:

> I want to make sure i get it right before going out
> and buying the ebony ink for my 2200. From what i've
> seen, you get the best and most neutral black and
> white print from the 2200 when using the eboni black
> ink and BO printing... does the print still need to be
> sprayed if it's on matte paper? the velvet fine art or
> enhanced matte? and what do you spray it with? also,
> is there anything i should know about the eboni ink
> and how to install it/clean in my 2200? Do i have to
> download something, or does it work the same as the
> matte black?
> Thanks so much! I am really looking foward to getting
> started on this today and an advice would be greatly
> appreciated.
> Julie
>

Thank you so much for your advice! I live in NYC and
just called the biggest suppliers of camera/digital
equiptment and they never heard of the eboni ink??
which company makes it? I looked on the site to buy it
online and it says that the system is only if you have
an RIP? can i just buy and use an eboni ink cartridge
on it's own without an RIP? seems strange the biggest
suppliers in NYC wouldn't have it. What is the best
way to describe this ink to see if they carry it. I'd
rather get it in the store if i can.
Thank you!!!
Julie


--- Richard Sintchak <richcontaxg@...>
wrote:
> 
> Tuesday, March 2, 2004, 9:11:04 AM, you wrote:
> 
> js> I want to make sure i get it right before going
> out
> js> and buying the ebony ink for my 2200. From what
> i've
> js> seen, you get the best and most neutral black
> and
> js> white print from the 2200 when using the eboni
> black
> js> ink and BO printing...
> 
> See Clayton Jone's early thread but the "tone" in
> regards to coolness
> and warmth depends mostly on the paper used.  EEM
> and PR give nice
> slightly warm prints.
> 
> js> does the print still need to be
> js> sprayed if it's on matte paper? the velvet fine
> art or
> js> enhanced matte? and what do you spray it with?
> 
> No, I never do.  It does not smear on matte papers,
> if that what you
> are asking.  Some people still like to spray matte
> papers and with
> Eboni you can but it's not necessary.
> 
> js> also,
> js> is there anything i should know about the eboni
> ink
> js> and how to install it/clean in my 2200?
> 
> No, just do a couple of cleaning cycles and nozzle
> checks when you
> first install the cart.
> 
> js> Do i have to
> js> download something, or does it work the same as
> the
> js> matte black?
> 
> Follow Clayton's link for basic details, but other
> than setting the
> driver for BO it's pretty much the same.
> http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm
> 
> js> Thanks so much! I am really looking foward to
> getting
> js> started on this today and an advice would be
> greatly
> js> appreciated.
> js> Julie
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Richard                           
> mailto:richard@...
> 
> 

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Search - Find what you\ufffdre looking for faster
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You can only purchase Eboni from MIS via the internet or phone.  Page 
to order Eboni for the 2200 is here:
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/epsoncomps_2200.html
You want part # ARC-T0348-K $9.95 each.

On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 01:03  PM, julie stapen wrote:

> Thank you so much for your advice! I live in NYC and
> just called the biggest suppliers of camera/digital
> equiptment and they never heard of the eboni ink??
> which company makes it? I looked on the site to buy it
> online and it says that the system is only if you have
> an RIP? can i just buy and use an eboni ink cartridge
> on it's own without an RIP? seems strange the biggest
> suppliers in NYC wouldn't have it. What is the best
> way to describe this ink to see if they carry it. I'd
> rather get it in the store if i can.
> Thank you!!!
> Julie
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, julie stapen
<jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> I want to make sure i get it right before going out
> and buying the ebony ink for my 2200. From what i've
> seen, you get the best and most neutral black and
> white print from the 2200 when using the eboni black
> ink and BO printing... does the print still need to be
> sprayed if it's on matte paper?

Julie,

I've been using my 2200 with Eboni for several months now.  I love the
BO prints on EEM (slightly warm) and Red River Polar Matte (neutral to
my eyes).  Red River Polar Matte is very cold toned paper, smooth and
quite nice.  I never spray the matte prints.  I do spray prints that I
make on Epson Semi Gloss or Permajet Oyster.  They are fine when
sprayed about four coats, but that is only for the semi gloss papers,
the mattes are fine without spraying.

I use the Eboni now all the time in my 2200.  I do BO prints and some
color too.  I'm a happy guy with this set up for now.

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Thank you so much for the paper advice and I now feel
much more confident in all the eboni ink I just
purchased! I am very excited to try this new system! I
actually got the whole MIS set with eboni. Do you use
the eboni with the regular epson 2200 cartridges or
the MIS ones? Also, would love to buy the Red River
Polar Matter! I have yet to see a neutral print! Is
this available in photo digital supply stores, or only
online?
Thank you!! 
I am so greatful for all the help I've been receiving!
Julie

--- Don <elixirs4me@...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> julie stapen
> <jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> > I want to make sure i get it right before going
> out
> > and buying the ebony ink for my 2200. From what
> i've
> > seen, you get the best and most neutral black and
> > white print from the 2200 when using the eboni
> black
> > ink and BO printing... does the print still need
> to be
> > sprayed if it's on matte paper?
> 
> Julie,
> 
> I've been using my 2200 with Eboni for several
> months now.  I love the
> BO prints on EEM (slightly warm) and Red River Polar
> Matte (neutral to
> my eyes).  Red River Polar Matte is very cold toned
> paper, smooth and
> quite nice.  I never spray the matte prints.  I do
> spray prints that I
> make on Epson Semi Gloss or Permajet Oyster.  They
> are fine when
> sprayed about four coats, but that is only for the
> semi gloss papers,
> the mattes are fine without spraying.
> 
> I use the Eboni now all the time in my 2200.  I do
> BO prints and some
> color too.  I'm a happy guy with this set up for
> now.
> 
> Ol' Don in Broken Arrow
> 
> 

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you\ufffdre looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, julie stapen
<jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> Thank you so much for the paper advice and I now feel
> much more confident in all the eboni ink I just
> purchased! I am very excited to try this new system! I
> actually got the whole MIS set with eboni. Do you use
> the eboni with the regular epson 2200 cartridges or
> the MIS ones? Also, would love to buy the Red River
> Polar Matter! I have yet to see a neutral print! Is
> this available in photo digital supply stores, or only
> online?
> Thank you!! 

I use the Eboni with the regular Epson color and light black
cartridges. On BO prints the 2200 only uses the black (eboni) cartridge.

I've never had a clog with this ink, but I do keep a room humidifier
in my printer/computer room and keep the room between 40 and 47
percent humidity during the dry winter months.

You can try Red River paper sample pack by going to 
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/samples/2200.htm

it is only 7.99 and you get several sheets of very usable paper to try.

When the UT7 inkset comes out, I will be ordering it from MIS and
giving it a shot with Paul Roark's curves. I think that really one of
the great things about the 2200 is that it is designed to work with
pigmented inks and seems a lot less prone to clogging. Or maybe that's
just due to my humidifier!! ;-)

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Hello Carl and Richard,

I was out of town for a week, am just getting caught up on forum
messages. Thanks for covering the Black Only questions.  I appreciate
the support you and others have shown.

The web site continues to generate interest.  I added a new sample BO
print to the list, an available light interior architecture shot from
a 4x5 Tri-X neg.  The large format makes a huge difference and BO does
a really nice job with it.   I regularly get emails from people who
try BO printing and like it, most are 2200 users.  

Thanks again.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

Which scanner are you using on your medium format Tri-X negatives?  Are your 
2200 prints large or small?  I ask because I am wondering about the grain 
issue with Tri-X and BO printing.  What developer do you use?

Thanks.
Helene


The web site continues to generate interest.  I added a new sample BO
print to the list, an available light interior architecture shot from
a 4x5 Tri-X neg.  The large format makes a huge difference and BO does
a really nice job with it.   I regularly get emails from people who
try BO printing and like it, most are 2200 users.  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Helene,

>Which scanner are you using on your medium format Tri-X negatives?  

I use an Epson 1600SU with a transparency adapter.



>What developer do you use?

HC-110 when I do it myself, or Tmax when a local lab does it.



>Are your 2200 prints large or small?  

Depends on the source image, just like with enlarger prints.  4x5, 6x6
and 645 scans I go up to 11x14.  35mm and 4mp digicam images (Canon
G3) I usually limit to 8x10.  


>I ask because I am wondering about the grain issue with Tri-X 
>and BO printing.  

IMO the difference between a 35mm scan and a 4x5 scan is going to show
up in a large print no matter what ink system is used.  Printing with
the BO technique will not exaggerate the limitations of the smaller
neg, nor will it diminish the advantages of the large neg.  If you
enlarge a 35mm scan to 16x20 then it's going to look grainy (or
pixellated) even with the Septone system.  I've printed all the above
mentioned formats, and the differences among them are exactly like
what I experienced in wet prints.  

As for BO, the dots are so small on these modern printers that
resolution is becoming a non-issue.  There is some extremely fine
detail in the new 4x5 interior shot (ornamentation on the column and
cracks in the plaster, etc) and the resolution of the 2200 with BO at
2880 is incredible.  The smallest details are clearly and sharply
rendered.

Another thing to consider is that as the print size increases the ink
dots do _not_ increase in size or spacing.  It's not like film grain.
 A larger print does not emphasize the dots any more than a small
print.  The practical effect is actually the reverse, as normally the
viewing distance increases.   If you need a loupe to see the dots on a
5x7 print, you'll still need the loupe to see them on a 16x20.

Each of the major systems (MIS, Piezotone, Septone, RIPs, BO) has
its own unique look.  The resolution in the print comes from the
printer technology, not the ink system.  All of these systems, used on
a 2200 at 2880dpi, will have equal resolution.  They may look a bit
different because of how the driver lays down and/or blends the the
droplets, but on a 2200 you can't get the droplets any smaller than
4pl or any closer than 2880dpi.  

Since it requires no special investment, I recommend printing a
variety of images with BO and see if you like the results.  I really
don't think the size or quality of the source image or the print size
makes any more difference with BO than with any other system.  It's
really a matter of whether you like the look in general.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm