Digital BW, The Print

Hello, all.  This question (observation) is new to me.  The last week I've
had some time to fiddle around making prints from a Canon 10D with the Canon
24-70 L zoom (my first experience with a digital SLR).  I converted the raw
files using Capture One to 12-bit tif and printed as b&w on the Epson 2200
with OEM inks.  I did as much as I could in Capture One, sharpened with
Photokit Sharpener, converted to untagged grayscale and printed (for reasons
I don't understand, if I convert the RGB file to grayscale before printing I
get a very neutral b&w print with no metamerism.  This makes little sense to
me since I think the files are sent to the 2200 as RGB, but there it is.).
The main adjustment I made in Photoshop CS was soft-proofing for Epson EEM
and printing with the untagged gray profile as the print space.  The thing I
noticed is that 11x17" image size prints were remarkably clear and sharp at
180 dpi (required because of the small 36mb converted raw file).  They have
excellent tonality and depth.  As a crude comparison, they seem like HDTV
compared to your run-of-the-mill telly.  This is as compared to 360 dpi
prints from b&w 35mm scanned on the Nikon 4000ED with a variety of films and
good glass.  I am surprised at this result with such a low dpi setting.

I have read that this is possible because the digital camera files, though
small, have less extraneous noise.  Another factor I have read is that with
the smaller Canon 10D sensor, you are using the best part of the already
good Canon L glass.  Any thoughts or pointing me to other sources
appreciated!  So far it looks pretty encouraging, since I don't make really
large prints.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

> From: Ken Carney [mailto:kcarney1@...]
>
> Hello, all.  This question (observation) is new to me.  The last week I've
> had some time to fiddle around making prints from a Canon 10D
> with the Canon
> 24-70 L zoom (my first experience with a digital SLR).  I
> converted the raw
> files using Capture One to 12-bit tif and printed as b&w on the Epson 2200
> with OEM inks.  I did as much as I could in Capture One, sharpened with
> Photokit Sharpener, converted to untagged grayscale and printed
> (for reasons
> I don't understand, if I convert the RGB file to grayscale before
> printing I
> get a very neutral b&w print with no metamerism.  This makes
> little sense to
> me since I think the files are sent to the 2200 as RGB, but there it is.).
> The main adjustment I made in Photoshop CS was soft-proofing for Epson EEM
> and printing with the untagged gray profile as the print space.

When I first installed the 2200 Windows drivers, I seem to remember that I
got different results sending a grayscale file to the driver, as opposed to
an R=G=B color file. I have no idea why.

I'm not surprised you can get decent B&W from your 2200, but I can't make
heads or tails of your color management. What do you mean by "untagged
grayscale" or "untagged gray profile"? The print space is supposed to be a
profile that describes the printer, not the image, so that should always be
one of the Epson profiles, whichever one is appropriate to the paper, ink
and resolution. Of course, in B&W, any profile mismanagement simply applies
some sort of unintentional curve to the image, which may accidentally give
you pleasing results. It's better, though, to get your color management
straight, so that you get good screen-print matching.

My experience with the 2200 is that it's not quite dead nuts neutral when
using color inks. RIPs like ImagePrint do an even better job, by using
mostly black ink, and only enough color ink to neutralize the tone.

> The thing I
> noticed is that 11x17" image size prints were remarkably clear
> and sharp at
> 180 dpi (required because of the small 36mb converted raw file).
> They have
> excellent tonality and depth.  As a crude comparison, they seem like HDTV
> compared to your run-of-the-mill telly.  This is as compared to 360 dpi
> prints from b&w 35mm scanned on the Nikon 4000ED with a variety
> of films and
> good glass.  I am surprised at this result with such a low dpi setting.
>
> I have read that this is possible because the digital camera files, though
> small, have less extraneous noise.  Another factor I have read is
> that with
> the smaller Canon 10D sensor, you are using the best part of the already
> good Canon L glass.  Any thoughts or pointing me to other sources
> appreciated!  So far it looks pretty encouraging, since I don't
> make really
> large prints.

I think the main difference is that with film, all degradation (noise, color
inaccuracy, defocusing) is doubled by the need to go through the scanning
process. My film scans (which are all color, mostly slides) always come out
much grainier than my 10D images. However, the Nikon scanners also tend to
emphasize grain a little, compared to other brands, because the strongly
colliminated light results in grain aliasing, where grain finer than the
scanner resolution mutates into grain at the scanner resolution, instead of
being averaged out.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

> 
> hi,
On my search for the best b and w print from my 2200,
I just received my new set of MIS inks, including the
ebony matte black... and polar matte paper from red
river. I want to get started right away, i'm really
excited, plus have about 3 orders to get out... Can I
just put in the new inks and get going or do I have to
download something to make the new inks work properly,
printer recognize them, etc...
thanks so much!
Julie

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul D. DeRocco [mailto:pderocco@...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:21 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> I'm not surprised you can get decent B&W from your 2200, but 
> I can't make heads or tails of your color management

That may be because my explanation was not a model of clarity.  What I was
trying to say: I work in RGB, soft proof, and the last thing I do before
printing is convert to grayscale.  PS assigns the name "untagged gray" to
the source space.  I can do one of two things: Print with the print space
same as source space (untagged gray), with color controls selected in color
management.  Or, I can select proof setup as the source space and print
space same as source.  Of course then I select ICM with no color management.
The print is the same either way.  I calibrate my Trinitron every couple of
weeks with SpyderPro, and the print looks just like the screen (discounting
the backlit effect).  Same with the occasional color print.
> 
> My experience with the 2200 is that it's not quite dead nuts 
> neutral when using color inks. RIPs like ImagePrint do an 
> even better job, by using mostly black ink, and only enough 
> color ink to neutralize the tone.

I guess neutral is in the eye of the viewer.  It's not cold, not warm, but a
little toward the cool side.  The tonal range is excellent. In my studio I
have quartz, northlight, tungsten and fluorescent viewing lamps - it seems
not to change much from one to the other.  To tone the prints a little I
suppose I will have to spring for IP6 when it comes out.  In the digital
world there is no end to spending money, but it's not a choker, esp
considering access to all the paper profiles.

> I think the main difference is that with film, all 
> degradation (noise, color inaccuracy, defocusing) is doubled 
> by the need to go through the scanning process. 

More so than I would have imagined.  Darkroom prints and inkjet prints are
different things to begin with, but now they're a _whole_ lot different.  I
was showing some of the inkjet prints from the 10D to a friend who has the
finest Leica glass you can get and uses the printer that HCB used, and he
was pretty impressed.  The darkroom prints look almost "artsy" with all the
film grain (35mm TriX).  I would not say which was "better" -- just
different.  I guess digital's not just a passing fad.

does anyone know about this? sounds like a lot of
people have been through this process. I'd really
appreciate any feedback.
thanks in advance,
Julie
--- julie stapen <jsstapen@...> wrote:
> > 
> > hi,
> On my search for the best b and w print from my
> 2200,
> I just received my new set of MIS inks, including
> the
> ebony matte black... and polar matte paper from red
> river. I want to get started right away, i'm really
> excited, plus have about 3 orders to get out... Can
> I
> just put in the new inks and get going or do I have
> to
> download something to make the new inks work
> properly,
> printer recognize them, etc...
> thanks so much!
> Julie
> 
> __________________________________
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Julie,
I have no experiance with the UT inks, I have with BO on a 2200. 
That's were I would start, it's so easy to get a great BO print. Why 
did you choose polar matte? Epson matte are just great, or the 
slightly better HPR. I am sure that using the curves for the UT will 
not be to much of a hassle, but with BO you leave all your color inks 
in and still get wonderful prints....

Sierra Gold
-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, julie stapen 
<jsstapen@y...> wrote:

> does anyone know about this? sounds like a lot of
> people have been through this process. I'd really
> appreciate any feedback.
> thanks in advance,
> Julie
> --- julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > hi,
> > On my search for the best b and w print from my
> > 2200,
> > I just received my new set of MIS inks, including
> > the
> > ebony matte black... and polar matte paper from red
> > river. I want to get started right away, i'm really
> > excited, plus have about 3 orders to get out... Can
> > I
> > just put in the new inks and get going or do I have
> > to
> > download something to make the new inks work
> > properly,
> > printer recognize them, etc...
> > thanks so much!
> > Julie
> > 
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> > http://search.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > and other resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> > digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
> > Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> > earlier messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> > attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
> > argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group
> > topic of digital B&W printing. Users who
> > persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> > from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the
> > group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
> > actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines"
> > in the Files section:
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
> > UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
> > INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR
> > LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
> > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> > HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
> > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> > GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
> > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
> > TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> > 
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> >
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> > 
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> > 
> 
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Julie,

I think the trouble is that we (or I) can't quite figure out
what you are really asking.   If you've got a 2200 you can't
be switching "from UT2" because there is no such thing.
And "to MIS inks" just tells us who you bought them from
not what inks you're switching to.  It also might make a
difference what kind of machine/OS you are using.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> 
wrote:

> does anyone know about this? sounds like a lot of
> people have been through this process. I'd really
> appreciate any feedback.
> thanks in advance,
> Julie
> --- julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > hi,
> > On my search for the best b and w print from my
> > 2200,
> > I just received my new set of MIS inks, including
> > the
> > ebony matte black... and polar matte paper from red
> > river. I want to get started right away, i'm really
> > excited, plus have about 3 orders to get out... Can
> > I
> > just put in the new inks and get going or do I have
> > to
> > download something to make the new inks work
> > properly,
> > printer recognize them, etc...
> > thanks so much!
> > Julie
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, julie stapen
<jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> does anyone know about this? sounds like a lot of
> people have been through this process. I'd really
> appreciate any feedback.
> thanks in advance,
> Julie
> --- julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > hi,
> > On my search for the best b and w print from my
> > 2200,
> > I just received my new set of MIS inks, including
> > the
> > ebony matte black... and polar matte paper from red
> > river. I want to get started right away, i'm really
> > excited, plus have about 3 orders to get out... Can
> > I
> > just put in the new inks and get going or do I have
> > to
> > download something to make the new inks work
> > properly,
> > printer recognize them, etc...
> > thanks so much!
> > Julie
 

Julie, you are all set to go.  For black only printing all you really
need is the Eboni cartridge which goes in the regular Black ink slot.
 You may want to do one or two cleaning cycles, and then you are set.
When you are ready to print make sure to check Black on the print
setting and then make sure to check on 2880 ppi.  Of course you will
want to set your paper type also, I think Polar Matte works well on
the Enhanced Matte setting. All the details are at Clayton's web site.
 You can find it on any of his posts here.

I sometimes tweak things like the ink saturation, but you will have to
make that determination with "your" eyes!  And the Epson Enhanced
paper works quite well too, but Polar Matte is acid free (according to
 Red River).  Have fun!

Don

sorry! i got confused with the terms... thank you so
much for all of the replies. they have been very
useful! i love this site!! what i meant is, i am
switching from the inks that come with the 2200 to the
inks from the mis website. eboni black and the other
colors labeled ARC-T...-UC i am on a mac and using
10.2.8
thank you!
--- Roy Harrington <roy@...> wrote:
> 
> Julie,
> 
> I think the trouble is that we (or I) can't quite
> figure out
> what you are really asking.   If you've got a 2200
> you can't
> be switching "from UT2" because there is no such
> thing.
> And "to MIS inks" just tells us who you bought them
> from
> not what inks you're switching to.  It also might
> make a
> difference what kind of machine/OS you are using.
> 
> Roy
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> 
> wrote:
> > does anyone know about this? sounds like a lot of
> > people have been through this process. I'd really
> > appreciate any feedback.
> > thanks in advance,
> > Julie
> > --- julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > hi,
> > > On my search for the best b and w print from my
> > > 2200,
> > > I just received my new set of MIS inks,
> including
> > > the
> > > ebony matte black... and polar matte paper from
> red
> > > river. I want to get started right away, i'm
> really
> > > excited, plus have about 3 orders to get out...
> Can
> > > I
> > > just put in the new inks and get going or do I
> have
> > > to
> > > download something to make the new inks work
> > > properly,
> > > printer recognize them, etc...
> > > thanks so much!
> > > Julie
> > > 
> 
> 
> 

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Julie,

Ok, I see.  So it looks like you have the Epson compatible color inks
along with Eboni as the black ink.

As several others have mentioned BO black-only is the easiest method.
Clayton Jones has written up a very good description, see part3:

http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Beyond that, you'll have to run special software to take advantage of
the other inks for B&W.  Since you are running Mac OS X you have the
option of trying QuadToneRIP which will give smoother highlights 
because it uses the light-black ink and.  It also allows variation of the
tone from cool to warm to sepia.  This is easy use and free to try out.
See my website:   http://www.harrington.com

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> 
wrote:

> sorry! i got confused with the terms... thank you so
> much for all of the replies. they have been very
> useful! i love this site!! what i meant is, i am
> switching from the inks that come with the 2200 to the
> inks from the mis website. eboni black and the other
> colors labeled ARC-T...-UC i am on a mac and using
> 10.2.8
> thank you!
> --- Roy Harrington <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Julie,
> > 
> > I think the trouble is that we (or I) can't quite
> > figure out
> > what you are really asking.   If you've got a 2200
> > you can't
> > be switching "from UT2" because there is no such
> > thing.
> > And "to MIS inks" just tells us who you bought them
> > from
> > not what inks you're switching to.  It also might
> > make a
> > difference what kind of machine/OS you are using.
> > 
> > Roy
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > does anyone know about this? sounds like a lot of
> > > people have been through this process. I'd really
> > > appreciate any feedback.
> > > thanks in advance,
> > > Julie
> > > --- julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > hi,
> > > > On my search for the best b and w print from my
> > > > 2200,
> > > > I just received my new set of MIS inks,
> > including
> > > > the
> > > > ebony matte black... and polar matte paper from
> > red
> > > > river. I want to get started right away, i'm
> > really
> > > > excited, plus have about 3 orders to get out...
> > Can
> > > > I
> > > > just put in the new inks and get going or do I
> > have
> > > > to
> > > > download something to make the new inks work
> > > > properly,
> > > > printer recognize them, etc...
> > > > thanks so much!
> > > > Julie
> > > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com

Thank you Roy for your very useful suggestions. They
are greatly appreciated!
Julie



--- Roy Harrington <roy@...> wrote:
> 
> Julie,
> 
> Ok, I see.  So it looks like you have the Epson
> compatible color inks
> along with Eboni as the black ink.
> 
> As several others have mentioned BO black-only is
> the easiest method.
> Clayton Jones has written up a very good
> description, see part3:
> 
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> Beyond that, you'll have to run special software to
> take advantage of
> the other inks for B&W.  Since you are running Mac
> OS X you have the
> option of trying QuadToneRIP which will give
> smoother highlights 
> because it uses the light-black ink and.  It also
> allows variation of the
> tone from cool to warm to sepia.  This is easy use
> and free to try out.
> See my website:   http://www.harrington.com
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> 
> wrote:
> > sorry! i got confused with the terms... thank you
> so
> > much for all of the replies. they have been very
> > useful! i love this site!! what i meant is, i am
> > switching from the inks that come with the 2200 to
> the
> > inks from the mis website. eboni black and the
> other
> > colors labeled ARC-T...-UC i am on a mac and using
> > 10.2.8
> > thank you!
> > --- Roy Harrington <roy@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Julie,
> > > 
> > > I think the trouble is that we (or I) can't
> quite
> > > figure out
> > > what you are really asking.   If you've got a
> 2200
> > > you can't
> > > be switching "from UT2" because there is no such
> > > thing.
> > > And "to MIS inks" just tells us who you bought
> them
> > > from
> > > not what inks you're switching to.  It also
> might
> > > make a
> > > difference what kind of machine/OS you are
> using.
> > > 
> > > Roy
> > > 
> > > --- In
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > does anyone know about this? sounds like a lot
> of
> > > > people have been through this process. I'd
> really
> > > > appreciate any feedback.
> > > > thanks in advance,
> > > > Julie
> > > > --- julie stapen <jsstapen@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > hi,
> > > > > On my search for the best b and w print from
> my
> > > > > 2200,
> > > > > I just received my new set of MIS inks,
> > > including
> > > > > the
> > > > > ebony matte black... and polar matte paper
> from
> > > red
> > > > > river. I want to get started right away, i'm
> > > really
> > > > > excited, plus have about 3 orders to get
> out...
> > > Can
> > > > > I
> > > > > just put in the new inks and get going or do
> I
> > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > download something to make the new inks work
> > > > > properly,
> > > > > printer recognize them, etc...
> > > > > thanks so much!
> > > > > Julie
> > > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> faster
> > http://search.yahoo.com
> 
> 

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