Digital BW, The Print

Good news everyone! (to quote Futurama): 
the new Darkroom Range Gloss Paper that Lyson introduced recently will soon be 
available in large sizes all the way up to full sheets. 
Coupled with their range of monochrome inksets, this promises to be the closest to a 
darkroom silver print yet. Having it available in large sizes makes it a serious 
contender for exhibition prints.

The samples I have seen were printed with the OS X version of IJC/OPM using a 
number of different Lyson mono inksets from warm through neutral and cold. The 
paper surface was absolutely smooth, no bronzing or differenciation between heavyly 
inked and lightly inked regions. The semi gloss finish looks much like the air-dried 
fiber darkroom print many have been looking to duplicate in digital. To my eye it 
looks like a far better match than the new Oriental paper which is just too glossy 
(closer to an RC glossy). The extra heft and feel of the paper backing is also 
reminiscent of exhibition grade papers that used to be only available in the 
darkroom.  The new Lyson paper is of the swellable polymer technology which also 
has the effect of protecting the ink by enveloping it.  Dmax can hit somewhere out in 
2.7 territory. 

The one downside is that this paper takes an unusually long time to dry and some 
users may find they need to raise the front rollers of the 2200 to avoid marks. 

The other issue that I am sure will be on the mind of many is the dye vs pigment 
debate. In this regard, it would be useful to read the current article in Photo 
techniques, written by the President of Lyson USA. Since the author is obviously 
affiliated with this product line, this may seem biased to many. However, some 
arguments seem to make sense regardless of perpective:
- Lyson dyes are the ones associated with the most widely accepted digital fine art 
prints (known as Iris or giclee prints). Their core technology has been around longer 
than pigments and has a record of stability over the last 15 years or so.
- Wilhelm has given high ratings to these dyes when used with Lyson's papers.

That last point is important: Lyson dyes need a different coating than pigments and 
even if manufacturers like Hahnemuhle make papers for Lyson, the result is not a 
simple rebranding but a version of the paper that has been coated with chemistry 
developed by Lyson specifically for their own inks. So, while it is true that the same 
inkset can be used for either matte or glossy (without the hassle of the dual black), 
any archival claims only hold true with Lyson papers. This may or may not be a 
limitation for some users, but it's worth remembering when committing a printer to 
these dyes.

My sense is that probably pigments in the long run will outlast dyes by a small 
margin. Unless I see a side by side fade test I wouldn't know for sure. But the thinking 
is that slightly shorter longevity may be a worthwhile tradeoff for the surface and look 
of these glossy prints. I wouldn't bet on a glossy paper/pigment combination coming 
out soon that circumvents the usual surface problems (bronzing etc)  - at least not 
without the hassles of coating. 

One thing is for sure: these dyes are not in the same class as the infamous dyes that 
Epson was marketing up to the introduction of the UC inks. It may be time to re-
evaluate the belief that _any_ pigments are absolutely superior to _any_ dyes. 

Another issue that users will have to decide for themselves is metamerism. I didn't 
see any with the sets I looked at but also didn't try all possible light sources. I found 
it reasuring that the inksets were not made up of colored dyes mixed to produce 
gray. Instead there is basically a warm and a cool gray dye which when mixed 
together produce the neutral set. Lyson is currently working on how best to take 
advantage of the 6-, 7- and 8- position printers to offer sets that can shift from 
neutral to either warm or cool. 

Which brings us to another topic: the sets are not likely to have a "toner" in the sense 
of an extreme warm or extreme cool ink intended to run over the whole grayscale. A 
user who wants extreme sepia - or other unusual  color shifts - would have to seek 
out other inksets (UC, UT etc) perhaps coupling gray dilutions with primary colors 
(like in a 2200, or better yet a 4000). 

The nice thing about monochrome insets that offer a single hue per set (warm, cool 
etc) is that (a) they are easier to profile without running into crossovers and (b) they 
don't depend on our eye to mix together dots of relatively bright colors to make up 
shades of gray, therefore opening up the door to metamerism.  But many may choose 
to put these technical considerations aside if the "look" they want is only possible 
with color/gray ink combinations.


As for the OS X version of IJC/OPM with which all these tests were run : I am told from 
Bowhaus that those who buy the OS 9 version will receive the current beta of the OS X 
version free of charge. It is officially still in beta, but runs just fine in my tests. It 
seems that the beta status is just a formality until official release. There are probably 
nooks and crannies in there that haven't been tested yet, but if you just want to 
profile and make prints with no size limit all the way up to the 9xxxx size printers, 
you won't be dissappointed. Considering the cost of RIPs for large formats, this offer 
would seem like quite a bargain.


The OS X version is not your grandfather's IJC either (!!). Here are the highlights of the  
new features (since OS 9) :

- Fixed the 36" print length limit when printing to roll-capable machines like the 7/
9xxxx class.
- Allows inks to be easily controlled across a grayscale by using sliders, though the 
option of using curves with points remains (for more flexibility in some situations). 
-Allows the user to linearize using a scanner (an instrument is more accurate  but 
now optional)
- Can linearize to any gamma chosen via slider (previous version was locked to 1.8)
- Can import density readings as a text file which simplifies linearization for those 
who have access to any instrument that can dump the numbers into a spreadsheet.
-Runs the 76/9600 printers.
-Can save the job settings which includes everything on the front panel of OPM for a 
given picture.

Carried over from the previous version, OPM continues to offer the Blender feature  
which allows on-the-fly blending betweeen 2 profiles.

Also worth noting is that, much like the OS 9 version, installation under OS X is a 
simple drag and drop of a single folder into the Applications. This folder only needs 
to contain IJC, OPM and a folder containing the profiles. OPM is not dependent on 
other system-level drivers to run.

Some limitations of IJC/OPM: 
- unlike a RIP, it won't allow impositions or qeuing of jobs. Only one picture can be 
brought in at a time
- no postscript option is available
- You can only make one copy at a time (per hit of the Print button). 


To get the current beta after purchasing the OS 9 version, please inquire at
software@...

To find out when Lyson papers and inks become available in the US you may check 
with  www.photofile-ink.com

The Lyson site is at: www.lyson.com

My usual disclaimer applies: I have no financial interest or other business ties with 
these products. I have only been a beta tester and consultant since the inception of 
IJC and remain an enthousiastic supporter and end-user. 
The information presented here about Lyson products is the result of a recent 
meeting with Tony Martin, President of Lyson USA.




Antonis


__________
IJC = InkJetControl
OPM = OpenPrintmaker

UC = UltraChromes
UT = UltraTones

Lyson sent me a sample of what I assume was this paper.  It was very weak
with the UT pigments I use.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/  

__________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Antonis [mailto:antonisphoto@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 7:07 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] New Glossy Lyson paper + inks + IJC/OPM

Good news everyone! (to quote Futurama): 
the new Darkroom Range Gloss Paper that Lyson introduced recently will soon
be 
available in large sizes all the way up to full sheets. ...

No surprise there, Paul. In fact, Lyson themselves doubt that the paper works well 
with pigments - certainly not without bronzing. This whole approach mostly works as 
a package of inks + paper and addresses glossy printing of bw in a way that is 
unique. No other combination will produce a print that looks like that. 
But if someone only prints matte, there are obviously many other solutions.

When I load the Lyson inks on my 7000 maybe I can send you a sample to stick in 
your next fade test alongside whatever else you are currently testing....  ?


Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Lyson sent me a sample of what I assume was this paper.  It was very weak
> with the UT pigments I use.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis"
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
big snip...

> It may be time to re-
> evaluate the belief that _any_ pigments are absolutely superior to
_any_ dyes. 

I agree, in fact I never quite bought into that. I much prefer dyes
for color, and the original Lyson quads did superbly under Wilhelm.

> Another issue that users will have to decide for themselves is
metamerism. I didn't 
> see any with the sets I looked at but also didn't try all possible
light sources. I found 
> it reasuring that the inksets were not made up of colored dyes mixed
to produce 
> gray. Instead there is basically a warm and a cool gray dye which
when mixed 
> together produce the neutral set.

I hope this is new, the quad sets I used from them long ago had
definite problems, and the hues of their sets were no pleasant, at
least to me, and metamerism was bad. I trust your assesment and assume
they've made some changes.

> Lyson is currently working on how best to take 
> advantage of the 6-, 7- and 8- position printers to offer sets that
can shift from 
> neutral to either warm or cool. 

I hope they don't work too hard, most of us already know how to do
that <G>.

All very exciting Antonis, thanks for the news.
Tyler

> > Lyson is currently working on how best to take 
> > advantage of the 6-, 7- and 8- position printers to offer sets that
> can shift from 
> > neutral to either warm or cool. 
> 
> I hope they don't work too hard, most of us already know how to do
> that <G>.
> 
> All very exciting Antonis, thanks for the news.
> Tyler


Tyler,

fitting different hues into the ink positions of various printers, is made more
 complicated because of chipped carts and the need to manage inventory efficiently
 without too many part numbers. They are trying to offer a basic neutral set
 in 3 or 4  positions and then a cool or a warm set in another 1, 2, or 3 posiitons. All
 3 would share the same black. 
So, for example, an end user with a 7-position printer may end up with 1 black, 3
 neutral grays and 3 warm grays. One with an 8-position printer may have the option
 of 1 black, 3 neutral grays, 2 cool grays and 2 warm grays. The latter would probably
 be the best of both worlds - but obviously we are not there yet. Another
 complication is that older printers will need more positions than newer ones to fill
 out the middle part of the grayscale without visible dots.

Either way, it will all work fine with StudioPrint which I believe deals with mixing
 fixed-hue sets better than spreading toners across the scale. (if that's what you
 meant by "most of us know how to do that" !).

And thanks for the cautious but supportive response, too. <g>

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis"
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
...
> fitting different hues into the ink positions of various printers,
is made more
>  complicated because of chipped carts and the need to manage
inventory efficiently
>  without too many part numbers. They are trying to offer a basic
neutral set
>  in 3 or 4  positions and then a cool or a warm set in another 1, 2,
or 3 posiitons. All
>  3 would share the same black.
> So, for example, an end user with a 7-position printer may end up
with 1 black, 3
>  neutral grays and 3 warm grays. One with an 8-position printer may
have the option
>  of 1 black, 3 neutral grays, 2 cool grays and 2 warm grays. The
latter would probably
>  be the best of both worlds - but obviously we are not there yet.
Another
>  complication is that older printers will need more positions than
newer ones to fill
>  out the middle part of the grayscale without visible dots.

Yes, I see the challenges. Since settling in on the process I'm now
using, my experimentation and knowledge of what else is going on out
there has become very limited.
One brief comment though, I've seen Steve Meyers doing beautiful
blends with the various Cone sets with 6 ink 7000 and 9000, and these
are quads. If one gets a handle on what part of the scale is most
effective to bring options to, and narrows their area of interest
rather than attempting to have every conceivable mix available, AND
stays creative, it's a wonderful world.

> Either way, it will all work fine with StudioPrint which I believe
deals with mixing
>  fixed-hue sets better than spreading toners across the scale. (if
that's what you
>  meant by "most of us know how to do that" !).

You are right, that's what I meant, and I'm still a believer in the
quad approach. I'm talking out of my hat here, and need to take a
better look at IJC. My assumption was that you could assign whatever
tank(s) you wanted to whatever part of the scale you wanted. This
overcomes the chip problem, and hence my assumption that most of us
(you of course), were knowledgeable of the different options, ie your
blending profiles comment. All this makes many things possible, even
more than StudioPrint. For example, spreading a toner across the
entire scale, while still having the basic part of the scale somewhat
partitioned is a bit harder to accomplish in SP. Possible, but more of
a challenge. Lyson no doubt is looking for their own consumer friendly
solution.

> And thanks for the cautious but supportive response, too. <g>

I hope I didn't sound too cautious, I really like everything going on
right now. This Lyson development is exciting. I try not to be on a
"team", but simply use what works for me and attempt to keep focused
on printing instead of tweaking. Also, I could change process in a
heartbeat if I found it necessary.
And of course, as a custom printer, with a tool like SP, other than
occasionally commenting on what "can" be done, I am keeping my
specific tweaks and ideas to myself, because they make what I have to
offer unique. I hope that doesn't sound selfish, but over the years
the atmosphere in our community has become a bit more aggressive.
But that's what's so cool about SP, IJC, and other things coming
along, they've opened things up for the creative print maker.
Tyler

> One brief comment though, I've seen Steve Meyers doing beautiful
> blends with the various Cone sets with 6 ink 7000 and 9000, and these
> are quads. If one gets a handle on what part of the scale is most
> effective to bring options to, and narrows their area of interest
> rather than attempting to have every conceivable mix available, AND
> stays creative, it's a wonderful world.


Agreed. In fact, my own 9500 is loaded with 2 flavors of Piezotones: Sepia and 
Warmtones with a common Museum Black and cyan-position.  Granted, I could have 
gone out to Cool or Neutral for a bigger range of blends - but same idea.


I'm talking out of my hat here, and need to take a
> better look at IJC. My assumption was that you could assign whatever
> tank(s) you wanted to whatever part of the scale you wanted. This
> overcomes the chip problem, 
...snip...
>Lyson no doubt is looking for their own consumer friendly solution.


Consumer friendly is the key here. Not only is the bw market a small niche,
the segment within that market that can handle the complexities of profiling,
toning etc is even smaller. The chip is not an issue per se as long as a user can make
their own profiles. But in plug-n-play solutions, where perhaps the inksets have to
be marketed with canned profiles and software, obviously the ink positions
will have to be fixed. In that sense, it's nice to have the older machines (7/9000) 
where you only need to break a tab or cover a sensor and your are good to go. 


I try not to be on a
> "team", but simply use what works for me and attempt to keep focused
> on printing instead of tweaking. Also, I could change process in a
> heartbeat if I found it necessary.


Healthy attitude. I am not married to any single solution either and certainly don't
want to spend a lifetime testing and never getting to final prints!


> I am keeping my
> specific tweaks and ideas to myself, because they make what I have to
> offer unique.

Of course - just remember the much more arcane "secrets" of darkroom master
printers. They didn't have their hands tied by firmware, drivers and whatever Epson 
comes up with to protect the market for OEM inks.
 Ah... the analogue world of bw printing.....  not. : - )



Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis"
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
>...In fact, my own 9500 is loaded with 2 flavors of Piezotones: Sepia
and 
> Warmtones with a common Museum Black and cyan-position...

Sounds like you came to the same conclusion Steve and I did. The
"good" warm is  somewhere between those two sets.

> Of course - just remember the much more arcane "secrets" of darkroom
master
> printers. They didn't have their hands tied by firmware, drivers and
whatever Epson 
> comes up with to protect the market for OEM inks.
>  Ah... the analogue world of bw printing.....  not. : - )

Right, those guys built up a great deal of mystique about their
alchemy. Some of it may even have been valid <G>.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis"
> <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> >...In fact, my own 9500 is loaded with 2 flavors of Piezotones: Sepia
> and 
> > Warmtones with a common Museum Black and cyan-position...
> 
> Sounds like you came to the same conclusion Steve and I did. The
> "good" warm is  somewhere between those two sets.

I finally came up with an ink setup that I really like for my 7500.  
Canned ink color never seemed to be quite right.  So I have a pure
carbon quadtone -- black, dark gray, medium gray and light gray,
plus two single color toners.  One is cold to be able to neutralize the
warm carbon to a neutral, the other is a sepia so I can go all the way
to a full sepia print.  Naturally, I use QuadToneRIP and have three
different profiles with blending between them.  I can pick anywhere
in an entire spectrum from neutral to sepia.

Roy

> 
> > Of course - just remember the much more arcane "secrets" of darkroom
> master
> > printers. They didn't have their hands tied by firmware, drivers and
> whatever Epson 
> > comes up with to protect the market for OEM inks.
> >  Ah... the analogue world of bw printing.....  not. : - )
> 
> Right, those guys built up a great deal of mystique about their
> alchemy. Some of it may even have been valid <G>.
> Tyler

>So I have a pure
> carbon quadtone -- black, dark gray, medium gray and light gray,
> plus two single color toners. 

Roy,

whose carbons and whose toners are these? 

I guess we can't settle this without everyone in the same viewing room with lots of 
prints in front of us, but here is the question: Is there any disadvantage to using a 
toner vs blending between single-hue inksets? Obviously the toner will give you the 
bigger cool-to-sepia range. But aren't there trade-offs? .... crossovers?...  overinking 
in the shadows?...  funny dots in the highlights?....

Just a skeptic -

Antonis

Antonis, this sounds great - I currently use Lyson's Quad Black 
Neutral in an Epson 1160, mostly using EEM with very good 
results, but I'd like to see what their new gloss papers can do in 
my setup.  Alas, I have to wait a bit to get into IJC/OPM, but that 
will hopefully come along soon enough.

Hopefully, Lyson will have a sampler pack available fairly soon.

- Barrett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> >So I have a pure
> > carbon quadtone -- black, dark gray, medium gray and light gray,
> > plus two single color toners. 
> 
> Roy,
> 
> whose carbons and whose toners are these? 
> 
> I guess we can't settle this without everyone in the same viewing room with lots of 
> prints in front of us, but here is the question: Is there any disadvantage to using a 
> toner vs blending between single-hue inksets? Obviously the toner will give you the 
> bigger cool-to-sepia range. But aren't there trade-offs? .... crossovers?...  
overinking 
> in the shadows?...  funny dots in the highlights?....
> 
> Just a skeptic -
> 
> Antonis

Hi Antonis,

I'm using the MIS inks.  They are all the ultratone based inks.  

I debated a long time trying to decide which approach to take for my 7500.
The large ink drops and only 6 inks made it hard to come up with a variable
tone setup.   For a while I was considering the 1 black, 3 selenium, 2 warm or cool
inks idea,  but I wasn't sure which colors I'd like the best and was also worried
about what to do with only 2 of one of the colors.  The septone idea is a lot
more obvious for this.

Anyway I used some of the UT2 inks on a 1270 and found the range of colors
very nice so I wanted to make something similar for the 7500.  1 black and
3 grays is essential for the 7500 to get smoothness (I used to use 4 grays).
So two toners was the obvious choice.

I haven't found much downside in using toners.   The toner curves are quite
smooth.  Since I can vary the amount of toner, crossovers don't show up.
I use an Eye-One and always plot out the LAB values of the stepwedge to see
what effect changes have.   I was a little concerned about toner in the
highlights too.  What I found was that the coolness of the paper (PhotoRag)
made it possible (actually necessary) to reduce the cool toner in the 0-10%
range.  For the sepia color the toner itself is nice so immediate toner isn't
objectional to my eyes.

I'm a skeptic too. I'm still open to other ideas for these old printers.

Roy

> I was a little concerned about toner in the
> highlights too.  What I found was that the coolness of the paper (PhotoRag)
> made it possible (actually necessary) to reduce the cool toner in the 0-10%
> range.  For the sepia color the toner itself is nice so immediate toner isn't
> objectional to my eyes.
> 
> I'm a skeptic too. I'm still open to other ideas for these old printers.


Good points, Roy. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I guess we can say that 
newer printers will benefit the use of toners even more as drops get smaller and 
smaller.

Antonis