Digital BW, The Print

Ok I'm asking this here as this is the reason I'm buying a new 
monitor. To do B&W and color printing ONLY no games no text no 
nothing but photo work. I realised my budget wasn't even in the ball 
park so I got a slightly bigger budget and the monitor that keeps 
popping up in my new budget range is the 

LaCie electron19blue IV. 


I have looked at a number of other ones based on specs but this one 
keeps being recomended by users not the specs. SO I thought I would 
ask here if anyone that is using this monitor would recomend it as 
the best bag for my $400.00 budget as Gateway and a couple of others 
have it it for under that with shipping included.

Anyone willing to recomend this one.

Thanks 

Mark W.

On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 06:02 PM, awahlster wrote:

> Ok I'm asking this here as this is the reason I'm buying a new
> monitor. To do B&W and color printing ONLY no games no text no
> nothing but photo work. I realised my budget wasn't even in the ball
> park so I got a slightly bigger budget and the monitor that keeps
> popping up in my new budget range is the
>
> LaCie electron19blue IV.
>
>

That's the one I bought, and as far as image quality, it seems fine.  I 
have, however, noticed the following problems:

There is a very fine line across the monitor that I have seen a number 
of times, in Photoshop, although writing this now, I don't see it.

Lately the monitor has been flickering.  It is doing it now, and I have 
seen it using other apps like ProfileMaker.  It's as if it's going in 
and out of its profiled state or something.  Fortunately, I have not 
seen it using Photoshop.  If I did, the monitor would be unusable.

So far for Photoshop editing, which is my main use, the monitor seems 
fine, and is certainly a bargain (look at PCNation's prices!), but I 
have to say that I'm not totally trusting it.

James Irelan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JI> There is a very fine line across the monitor that I have seen a number
JI> of times, in Photoshop, although writing this now, I don't see it.

Flat screen CRT monitors have those lines. There should be two of them.

JI> Lately the monitor has been flickering.  It is doing it now, and I have
JI> seen it using other apps like ProfileMaker.  It's as if it's going in
JI> and out of its profiled state or something.  Fortunately, I have not
JI> seen it using Photoshop.  If I did, the monitor would be unusable.

Is the video cable tangled up with the power cable? What you describe
sounds like noise interference, usually from the power cord. You may
be using a cheaper video cable with little insulation (ground and/or
ferrite - those fat blobs at both ends of the cable). Also make sure
you are using a refresh rate of at least 75Hz (90Hz or above is
better).

g

> From: James Irelan [mailto:james@...]
>
> There is a very fine line across the monitor that I have seen a number
> of times, in Photoshop, although writing this now, I don't see it.

Trinitron monitors have that. Small monitors have one, larger ones have two.
It's what keeps the shadow mask, which is a bunch of vertical wires, from
vibrating, and totally disrupting the color, at every little mechanical
bump.

> Lately the monitor has been flickering.  It is doing it now, and I have
> seen it using other apps like ProfileMaker.  It's as if it's going in
> and out of its profiled state or something.  Fortunately, I have not
> seen it using Photoshop.  If I did, the monitor would be unusable.

Do you mean an irregular flickering, like a candle, as though there were a
loose connection, or a steady flickering that you can see especially out of
the corner of your eye? If the former, make sure your video cable is in good
shape--disconnect and reconnect it a couple of times to make sure there's no
gunk on the contacts. If the latter, see if you can up the scan rate.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Mark,

I realize what I am about to suggest isn't in your budget, but thought I'd throw it
in, if only for your information:

The Sony Artisan is the current champ in what you are looking for. Four or
five years ago, the LaCie was still a major contender having taken over for Radius.
The reason you are finding prices so low for the LaCie is that it is old technology and,
for the price you mention, doesn't include calibration which is one of the major
benefits of the Artisan.

Whatever you end up buying, keep in mind that there is no point
 in buying a monitor of this class without a calibration kit. The Artisan comes with
one that is tuned to its phosphors and is more accurate than generic ones. 
The Lacie offers the Blue Eye Vision which adds another $400 (but doesn't run 
under OS X - somewhat of an abandoned product? ). In the end the total bill for the 
LaCie is about $800 vs $1500 for the Artisan.

If you buy a current generation calibrator (such as the Spyder etc) and add a decent 
monitor (such as the same Sony that the Artisan in built on), you may end up in the 
ballpark of the LaCie package but with more recent technology. And, yes, in that case
you'd have to make your own light shield from black foamcore! <g>

Just a thought....


Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "awahlster" 
<awahlster@a...> wrote:

> Ok I'm asking this here as this is the reason I'm buying a new 
> monitor. To do B&W and color printing ONLY no games no text no 
> nothing but photo work. I realised my budget wasn't even in the ball 
> park so I got a slightly bigger budget and the monitor that keeps 
> popping up in my new budget range is the 
> 
> LaCie electron19blue IV. 
> 
> 
> I have looked at a number of other ones based on specs but this one 
> keeps being recomended by users not the specs. SO I thought I would 
> ask here if anyone that is using this monitor would recomend it as 
> the best bag for my $400.00 budget as Gateway and a couple of others 
> have it it for under that with shipping included.
> 
> Anyone willing to recomend this one.
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Mark W.

The line that you see in this monitor is part of how this monitor and most
monitors in this class are built.  There a fine wire mess behind the glass
and wire holds it in place.

 

I too use one of these monitors and it's the best monitor I've ever used and
for 8 years I've been using hi-spec Sony and NEC monitor at my work.  The
Blue Eye integrated with this monitor to make calibration no hassle at all.

 

Regards,

 

David

 

  _____  

From: James Irelan [mailto:james@...] 
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 5:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Monitor purchase questions

 


On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 06:02 PM, awahlster wrote:

> Ok I'm asking this here as this is the reason I'm buying a new
> monitor. To do B&W and color printing ONLY no games no text no
> nothing but photo work. I realised my budget wasn't even in the ball
> park so I got a slightly bigger budget and the monitor that keeps
> popping up in my new budget range is the
>
> LaCie electron19blue IV.
>
>

That's the one I bought, and as far as image quality, it seems fine.  I 
have, however, noticed the following problems:

There is a very fine line across the monitor that I have seen a number 
of times, in Photoshop, although writing this now, I don't see it.

Lately the monitor has been flickering.  It is doing it now, and I have 
seen it using other apps like ProfileMaker.  It's as if it's going in 
and out of its profiled state or something.  Fortunately, I have not 
seen it using Photoshop.  If I did, the monitor would be unusable.

So far for Photoshop editing, which is my main use, the monitor seems 
fine, and is certainly a bargain (look at PCNation's prices!), but I 
have to say that I'm not totally trusting it.

James Irelan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: David J. Simons [mailto:dsimons@...]
>
> The line that you see in this monitor is part of how this monitor and most
> monitors in this class are built.  There a fine wire mess behind the glass
> and wire holds it in place.

How do you know it's messy?

;-)

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

well as always when a question is asked like this the budget gets 
thrown out the door.. BUT as I said I stretched the budget to get to 
$400.00 See I'm not just buying a Monitor but a New PC (custom 
assembled with a 3gig HT PentIV 800fsb 1-2 gig RAM 80 gig HD with 
8gig buffer) it is being built to only do photo editing nothing else 
won't even be on the net, two printers (a Canon i960 for color and an 
Epson 890 for UT-2 B&W), a FS4000D film scanner and a Epson 3170 flat 
bed for MF and prints plus three of four pieces of software. SO the 
budget has to get divided up in many ways. But since this system will 
be replacing a 4 year old Gateway esential (runing a 700Mhz celeron 
with 512 ram and a 30 gig HD) with a gateway EVF720 monitor canon 
D2400U flat bed scanner and HP 932C printer. I'm pretty sure I'll be 
real happy with the improvement.

So I still need more imput on Monitors before I jump.


Thanks
Mark W.

I too am looking at a monitor purchase with the standard questions, flat vs:
CRT, resolution, etc. (I hope this is not an "off-list" subject)
TNX,
Joe

  -----Original Message-----
  From: awahlster [mailto:awahlster@...]
  Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:18 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Monitor purchase questions


  well as always when a question is asked like this the budget gets
  thrown out the door.. BUT as I said I stretched the budget to get to
  $400.00 See I'm not just buying a Monitor but a New PC (custom
  assembled with a 3gig HT PentIV 800fsb 1-2 gig RAM 80 gig HD with
  8gig buffer) it is being built to only do photo editing nothing else
  won't even be on the net, two printers (a Canon i960 for color and an
  Epson 890 for UT-2 B&W), a FS4000D film scanner and a Epson 3170 flat
  [Joe Dempsey] I to bed for MF and prints plus three of four pieces of
software. SO the
  budget has to get divided up in many ways. But since this system will
  be replacing a 4 year old Gateway esential (runing a 700Mhz celeron
  with 512 ram and a 30 gig HD) with a gateway EVF720 monitor canon
  D2400U flat bed scanner and HP 932C printer. I'm pretty sure I'll be
  real happy with the improvement.

  So I still need more imput on Monitors before I jump.


  Thanks
  Mark W.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----

  From: awahlster [mailto:awahlster@...]
  Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:18 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Monitor purchase questions


  well as always when a question is asked like this the budget gets
  thrown out the door.. BUT as I said I stretched the budget to get to
  $400.00 See I'm not just buying a Monitor but a New PC (custom
  assembled with a 3gig HT PentIV 800fsb 1-2 gig RAM 80 gig HD with
  8gig buffer) it is being built to only do photo editing nothing else
  won't even be on the net, two printers (a Canon i960 for color and an
  Epson 890 for UT-2 B&W), a FS4000D film scanner and a Epson 3170 flat
  bed for MF and prints plus three of four pieces of software. SO the
  budget has to get divided up in many ways. But since this system will
  be replacing a 4 year old Gateway esential (runing a 700Mhz celeron
  with 512 ram and a 30 gig HD) with a gateway EVF720 monitor canon
  D2400U flat bed scanner and HP 932C printer. I'm pretty sure I'll be
  real happy with the improvement.

  So I still need more imput on Monitors before I jump.


  Thanks
  Mark W.







  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joe,
 
Have been using for the past year the NEC MultiSync FP2141SB (Superbright Diamondtron), one other item to think about is your graphics card before you start sinking money into a monitor. As for flat vs CRT, forget about flat if resolution and contrast range is a concern, it will be sometime before flat can offer what a CRT does, if ever in our lifetime.
 

Thanks

Tom Steele,CRA
Director of Ophthalmic Photography
Midwest Eye Institute
201 Pennsylvania Parkway
Indianapolis, Indiana 46280-1381
317-817-1018
toms@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Dempsey [mailto:jdempsey@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 8:25 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Monitor purchase questions


I too am looking at a monitor purchase with the standard questions, flat vs:
CRT, resolution, etc. (I hope this is not an "off-list" subject)
TNX,
Joe
  -----Original Message-----
  From: awahlster [mailto:awahlster@...]
  Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:18 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Monitor purchase questions


  well as always when a question is asked like this the budget gets
  thrown out the door.. BUT as I said I stretched the budget to get to
  $400.00 See I'm not just buying a Monitor but a New PC (custom
  assembled with a 3gig HT PentIV 800fsb 1-2 gig RAM 80 gig HD with
  8gig buffer) it is being built to only do photo editing nothing else
  won't even be on the net, two printers (a Canon i960 for color and an
  Epson 890 for UT-2 B&W), a FS4000D film scanner and a Epson 3170 flat
  [Joe Dempsey] I to bed for MF and prints plus three of four pieces of
software. SO the
  budget has to get divided up in many ways. But since this system will
  be replacing a 4 year old Gateway esential (runing a 700Mhz celeron
  with 512 ram and a 30 gig HD) with a gateway EVF720 monitor canon
  D2400U flat bed scanner and HP 932C printer. I'm pretty sure I'll be
  real happy with the improvement.

  So I still need more imput on Monitors before I jump.


  Thanks
  Mark W.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark,
I recently went through the process you are currently pondering and I
purchased a Viewsonic P225f monitor which is just outstanding!
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/crt_p225f.htm
This'll set you back $520.00 US currency but it is simply an amazing buy at
this price. It is a 22 inch monitor! It's colour fidelity when calibrated
with my Spyder & Photocal 2.7 is better than anything I saw when I compared
it to the Artisan and the LaCie!
Give it a look, you won't be disappointed!
Owen

Owen Evans
J.33.3

" Many men stumble across the truth, but most
manage to pick themselves up and continue
as if nothing had happened."
--Winston Churchill--

-----Original Message-----

From: Owen P. Evans [mailto:owenpevans@...] 
Sent: 21 March 2004 15:20
To: B&W
Cc: awahlster@...
Subject: [Digital BW] re: Monitor purchase questions

Hi Mark,
I recently went through the process you are currently pondering and I
purchased a Viewsonic P225f monitor which is just outstanding!
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/crt_p225f.htm
This'll set you back $520.00 US currency but it is simply an amazing buy at
this price. It is a 22 inch monitor! It's colour fidelity when calibrated
with my Spyder & Photocal 2.7 is better than anything I saw when I compared
it to the Artisan and the LaCie!
---------------------------------
That's all very well but do your prints match your monitor, that's what I'd
like to know.

Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

You might also look at Viewsonic they tend to be reasonably priced and
excellent quality - I've used them for years for non-photoshop work and
they have been problem free.  Tim Grey who is the digital guru at the
George Lepp institute thinks highly of them as well. I suspect you may
find one in your price range. Tim also recommends the colorvision spider
for calibration, which seems to be one of the least expensive routes to
go.

I just purchased an Artisan at $1650 - refurbished units can be had from
Sony for around 1500, retail is 1799 now. 

-Vince

-----Original Message-----
From: awahlster [mailto:awahlster@...] 
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:18 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Monitor purchase questions

well as always when a question is asked like this the budget gets 
thrown out the door.. BUT as I said I stretched the budget to get to 
$400.00 See I'm not just buying a Monitor but a New PC (custom 
assembled with a 3gig HT PentIV 800fsb 1-2 gig RAM 80 gig HD with 
8gig buffer) it is being built to only do photo editing nothing else 
won't even be on the net, two printers (a Canon i960 for color and an 
Epson 890 for UT-2 B&W), a FS4000D film scanner and a Epson 3170 flat 
bed for MF and prints plus three of four pieces of software. SO the 
budget has to get divided up in many ways. But since this system will 
be replacing a 4 year old Gateway esential (runing a 700Mhz celeron 
with 512 ram and a 30 gig HD) with a gateway EVF720 monitor canon 
D2400U flat bed scanner and HP 932C printer. I'm pretty sure I'll be 
real happy with the improvement.

So I still need more imput on Monitors before I jump.


Thanks
Mark W.







Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
(iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

awahlster writes:
 > well as always when a question is asked like this the budget gets 
 > thrown out the door.. BUT as I said I stretched the budget to get to 
 > $400.00 See I'm not just buying a Monitor but a New PC (custom 
 > assembled with a 3gig HT PentIV 800fsb 1-2 gig RAM 80 gig HD with 
 > 8gig buffer) it is being built to only do photo editing nothing else 
 > won't even be on the net, two printers (a Canon i960 for color and an 
 > Epson 890 for UT-2 B&W), a FS4000D film scanner and a Epson 3170 flat 
 > bed for MF and prints plus three of four pieces of software. [...]

I think that it's *really* important for a system to be balanced.

One thing that you might want to consider is trimming a bit off of the
spec's of the computer itself (you're paying a premium for bleeding
edge stuff there) and putting the money towards high quality monitor
and/or calibration tools.  

The monitor and calibration tools you use will make a *big* difference
in the quality of the work that you're able to produce.  The
hot-rodded CPU and big RAM, etc.... won't have any effect on the
quality of what you're doing, just the speed at which you can do it.
If you're working on 4000dpi scans from 35mm film, you could certainly
buy a simpler machine and it'd still feel like an amazing upgrade from
the box you've been using.  Upgrading components in the box itself
will be easy going forward, and prices will only keep dropping....

g.

> From: George Hartzell [mailto:hartzell@...]
>
> The monitor and calibration tools you use will make a *big* difference
> in the quality of the work that you're able to produce.  The
> hot-rodded CPU and big RAM, etc.... won't have any effect on the
> quality of what you're doing, just the speed at which you can do it.
> If you're working on 4000dpi scans from 35mm film, you could certainly
> buy a simpler machine and it'd still feel like an amazing upgrade from
> the box you've been using.  Upgrading components in the box itself
> will be easy going forward, and prices will only keep dropping....

I would disagree only about one thing: when you're editing large images,
having a ton of RAM makes a _huge_ difference in the usability of the
system, much more so than any other single factor. But you're right about
CPU speed, disk speed, video card speed--not worth spending a lot of money
on for photo editing.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Paul D. DeRocco writes:
 > > From: George Hartzell [mailto:hartzell@...]
 > >
 > > The monitor and calibration tools you use will make a *big* difference
 > > in the quality of the work that you're able to produce.  The
 > > hot-rodded CPU and big RAM, etc.... won't have any effect on the
 > > quality of what you're doing, just the speed at which you can do it.
 > > If you're working on 4000dpi scans from 35mm film, you could certainly
 > > buy a simpler machine and it'd still feel like an amazing upgrade from
 > > the box you've been using.  Upgrading components in the box itself
 > > will be easy going forward, and prices will only keep dropping....
 > 
 > I would disagree only about one thing: when you're editing large images,
 > having a ton of RAM makes a _huge_ difference in the usability of the
 > system, much more so than any other single factor. But you're right about
 > CPU speed, disk speed, video card speed--not worth spending a lot of money
 > on for photo editing.

True enough, although it depends on your definitions of large and
usable.  I routinely work with 16 bit 4000dpi scans on my 500MHz G4,
and it's "usable".  Would I prefer a fast dual G5?  Yep.  Would I
trade that for monitor calibration?  Nope.

Big drum scans might well be a different matter entirely....

It looks like a Gig of RAM is going for $150 to $200 (depending on the
flavor), but that'd get you an Eye-one display on Ebay.....

A couple of months from now, that second gig might only be $80....

g.

> From: George Hartzell [mailto:hartzell@...]
>
> Big drum scans might well be a different matter entirely....
>
> It looks like a Gig of RAM is going for $150 to $200 (depending on the
> flavor), but that'd get you an Eye-one display on Ebay.....

I suppose it also depends upon how much editing you do. Do a bunch of edits
in Photoshop, and the undo buffers will chew through your RAM like Godzilla.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

>I too am looking at a monitor purchase with the standard questions, flat vs:
>CRT, resolution, etc. (I hope this is not an "off-list" subject)
>TNX,
>Joe
>   -----Original Message[of Mark's]-----[snipped]

I'm in the same boat as Joe. But without Mark's $400 budget 
restriction. Only, I suspect, because I'm trying to live with my old 
computer for a while. And unless it's simply too bulky, I'm also 
going to try to live with my old monitor - as a Photoshop palette 
monitor - for a while. It's a 19-inch 4.5-year old Sony GDM F420 CRT 
and fading fast.

I've thought that for images, I'd ideally like to get the Sony 
Artisan Antonis mentioned. But it's bigger than I need because I 
haven't room for a table at which to mount and mat and frame prints 
of images larger than about 11 x 14.

So I think my best high-end option is probably EIZO's ColorEdge CG18 
LCD. I believe it's only a little small for me. And I think it is 
probably at least as good as the Artisan after being worked on a bit 
with GretagMacbeth's Eye-One Display (not Eye-One Photo because I 
think I'd rather have my printer profiles made for me by CHROMiX.com).

Cost including the colorimeter: nearly $2000. And the 21-inch 
ColorEdge would make it at least several hundred dollars more. Good 
as the EIZO ColorEdge is, would it reduce the amount of hard proofing 
enough to pay for itself? Before it wears out in, say, three years 
(despite it's warranty for five)? I don't see why not given the cost 
of the papers on which we print.

But would a lesser monitor reduce costs proportionately less? Maybe 
not; the quality of the images the monitors display seems to tend to 
converge as the monitors are calibrated and profiled. Witness Owen 
Evans' comments on his $520 22-inch ViewSonic P225f CRT and David 
Simons' comments on his LaCie.

They are still over Mark's $400 budget. But I assume a 19-inch 
ViewSonic or Samsung or Mitsubishi will get him under the wire if he 
already has something to calibrate and profile it with. I wish I had 
one of each and could recommend one.

As for me, if I had to buy tonight, I think I'd probably go with 
X-Rite's MonacoOptix XR colorimeter (instead of the Eye-One Display 
EIZO programs for) and the big ViewSonic instead of the ColorEdge. 
I'm sure the ColorEdge is better. But I doubt it's that much better. 
And if I don't get one, I'm going to try very hard never to look at 
one for at least, say, two years. 8)
--
Sam

You can get a very useable NEC/Viewsonic Superbrite 19" monitor for $200-$250.  The screens flat, the color is good, and it has a 3 year warranty.  I've been using the NEC version for about 18 months, and I'm very pleased.  I would like a bigger screen, so I will go to the 22 inch version soon.  No LCD's in my future for the prime monitor ( I run two monitors on my system).
 
Tom Baker

Sam McCandless <samcc@...> wrote:
>I too am looking at a monitor purchase with the standard questions, flat vs:
>CRT, resolution, etc. (I hope this is not an "off-list" subject)
>TNX,
>Joe
>   -----Original Message[of Mark's]-----[snipped]

I'm in the same boat as Joe. But without Mark's $400 budget 
restriction. Only, I suspect, because I'm trying to live with my old 
computer for a while. And unless it's simply too bulky, I'm also 
going to try to live with my old monitor - as a Photoshop palette 
monitor - for a while. It's a 19-inch 4.5-year old Sony GDM F420 CRT 
and fading fast.

I've thought that for images, I'd ideally like to get the Sony 
Artisan Antonis mentioned. But it's bigger than I need because I 
haven't room for a table at which to mount and mat and frame prints 
of images larger than about 11 x 14.

So I think my best high-end option is probably EIZO's ColorEdge CG18 
LCD. I believe it's only a little small for me. And I think it is 
probably at least as good as the Artisan after being worked on a bit 
with GretagMacbeth's Eye-One Display (not Eye-One Photo because I 
think I'd rather have my printer profiles made for me by CHROMiX.com).

Cost including the colorimeter: nearly $2000. And the 21-inch 
ColorEdge would make it at least several hundred dollars more. Good 
as the EIZO ColorEdge is, would it reduce the amount of hard proofing 
enough to pay for itself? Before it wears out in, say, three years 
(despite it's warranty for five)? I don't see why not given the cost 
of the papers on which we print.

But would a lesser monitor reduce costs proportionately less? Maybe 
not; the quality of the images the monitors display seems to tend to 
converge as the monitors are calibrated and profiled. Witness Owen 
Evans' comments on his $520 22-inch ViewSonic P225f CRT and David 
Simons' comments on his LaCie.

They are still over Mark's $400 budget. But I assume a 19-inch 
ViewSonic or Samsung or Mitsubishi will get him under the wire if he 
already has something to calibrate and profile it with. I wish I had 
one of each and could recommend one.

As for me, if I had to buy tonight, I think I'd probably go with 
X-Rite's MonacoOptix XR colorimeter (instead of the Eye-One Display 
EIZO programs for) and the big ViewSonic instead of the ColorEdge. 
I'm sure the ColorEdge is better. But I doubt it's that much better. 
And if I don't get one, I'm going to try very hard never to look at 
one for at least, say, two years. 8)
--
Sam


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have had very good luck in the past with Viewsonic, NEC, Mitsubishi and
Sony monitors. It is a real shame Sony is apparently abandoning CRT displays
except for the very high end.

A word of caution on NEC, however. I replaced my aging Sony in August with a
19" MultiSync FP912SB NEC monitor and I was very pleased with the image
quality. Cost was under $300. Unfortunately in late January it failed with
the image geometry becoming distorted and the lower left corner flickering.
I did an exchange with NEC/Mitsubishi support and they were very prompt but
I had to pay shipping one way since I was out of the 90 day warranty.

The replacement they sent was defective and I did another exchange (they
paid all the shipping) but that had defective power management. I am now
looking at my third refurb from NEC/Mitsubishi and it has failed exactly the
same way as the original monitor. Maybe this was just a bad model but
receiving 3 bad replacements has cooled my brand loyalty to NEC.

I am not sure I want to go one more round of a refurb from them. I may just
bite the bullet and buy a new Viewsonic 19" Graphics model G90f for under
$300.

Martin Wesley
www.carolynfrayn.com/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Well, here's my experience: I have a 466mHz G4, about 900mb 
RAM, and manages to handle the files from my Minolta 5400 
(around 70mb for b/w, 200mb for color) without choking.  
Something faster might be "nice" but it's hardly essential with my 
current setup, although I may eventually max the RAM out to 
1.5gb.  So I agree, the monitor matters more.

- Barrett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, George 
Hartzell <hartzell@k...> wrote:

> True enough, although it depends on your definitions of large
> and usable.  I routinely work with 16 bit 4000dpi scans on my 
> 500MHz G4, and it's "usable".  Would I prefer a fast dual G5?
> Yep.  Would I trade that for monitor calibration?  Nope.
> 
> Big drum scans might well be a different matter entirely....
> 
> It looks like a Gig of RAM is going for $150 to $200 (depending 
> on the flavor), but that'd get you an Eye-one display on Ebay.....
> 
> A couple of months from now, that second gig might only be
> $80....
> 
> g.

I've replaced my NEC under warranty once, as well.
 
Tom Baker

Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:
I have had very good luck in the past with Viewsonic, NEC, Mitsubishi and
Sony monitors. It is a real shame Sony is apparently abandoning CRT displays
except for the very high end.

A word of caution on NEC, however. I replaced my aging Sony in August with a
19" MultiSync FP912SB NEC monitor and I was very pleased with the image
quality. Cost was under $300. Unfortunately in late January it failed with
the image geometry becoming distorted and the lower left corner flickering.
I did an exchange with NEC/Mitsubishi support and they were very prompt but
I had to pay shipping one way since I was out of the 90 day warranty.

The replacement they sent was defective and I did another exchange (they
paid all the shipping) but that had defective power management. I am now
looking at my third refurb from NEC/Mitsubishi and it has failed exactly the
same way as the original monitor. Maybe this was just a bad model but
receiving 3 bad replacements has cooled my brand loyalty to NEC.

I am not sure I want to go one more round of a refurb from them. I may just
bite the bullet and buy a new Viewsonic 19" Graphics model G90f for under
$300.

Martin Wesley
www.carolynfrayn.com/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well guys after the discussions here and on a couple other places I 
asked the same basic question along with a weekend of more reading 
and worrying. I'm leaning heavily towards the LaCie electron19blue IV 
and combining it with it's native Blue Eye calibrater. I like the 
idea that they are made to work together and read there are some nice 
advantages to that combined system with regaurds to ease of 
adjustment via mouse and on screen controls. I can find the Monitor 
for under $375.00 and the calibation set up for around $400.00. 
That's about what I wanted to spend on a monitor, but a bit more then 
I was hoping for the color calibrater but only about $150.00 (so no 
lunches for a few weeks!)

Since I'm going to be using a Canon FS4000D scanner for my slides and 
negs. I will not be doing any in scanner editing since it works best 
to just scan at 42bit and out put at 42bit and do everything needed 
post scan (I read a lot about people fighting this scanner trying to 
turn it into an editing device so I'll skip that)

So I'll still need a way to calibrate my Color printer a Canon i960 
but I can worry about that later. 

Next to buy the monitor and start working on the Computer itself.

WOW maybe I should just go finish the walls to my darkroom!

Mark W. 

Thanks for the help deciding or maybe more likely making up my mind!

For those contemplating the purchase of the Artisan, this is the Canadian
Sony comment: Caveat Emptor!

>Dear Owen,

Thank you for your E-mail regarding the Sony Artisan Monitor.

Regrettably this model has been discontinued. To better assist you, please
call our professional product support number at 1-800-361-5535, where one of
our representatives will be able to assist you.

Best regards,

Customer Information Centre
Service and Engineering Division
Sony of Canada Ltd.
www.sony.ca
www.sonystyle.ca
Tel: 877-899-7669
Fax: 416-499-3399

This E-mail contains privileged and/or confidential information.  Accidental
receipt of this transmission by anyone other than the addressee does not
waive any applicable confidentiality or privilege.  Any distribution, use or
copying of this E-mail or the information it contains by other than an
intended recipient is unauthorized.  If you received this E-mail in error,
please destroy it and advise by return.  Thank you for your co-operation and
assistance.<


Owen Evans
J.33.3

" Many men stumble across the truth, but most
manage to pick themselves up and continue
as if nothing had happened."
--Winston Churchill--

>Well guys after the discussions here and on a couple other places I
>asked the same basic question along with a weekend of more reading
>and worrying. I'm leaning heavily towards the LaCie electron19blue IV
>and combining it with it's native Blue Eye calibrater. I like the
>idea that they are made to work together and read there are some nice
>advantages to that combined system with regaurds to ease of
>adjustment via mouse and on screen controls. I can find the Monitor
>for under $375.00 and the calibation set up for around $400.00.
>That's about what I wanted to spend on a monitor, but a bit more then
>I was hoping for the color calibrater but only about $150.00 (so no
>lunches for a few weeks!)

Don't these LaCie costs need to be related to the other options' 
costs as well as to the budget? For example, the ViewSonic 90f Martin 
mentioned is maybe $100 less than the LaCie and the BlueEye plus its 
software is $100 - S150 more than its arguably superior competition. 
Is the LaCie integration worth such a large premium? And being stuck 
with the BlueEye when its monitor wears out?


>Since I'm going to be using a Canon FS4000D scanner for my slides and
>negs.

Is it preferred over the Nikon and Minolta competition on grounds of cost?


>  I will not be doing any in scanner editing since it works best
>to just scan at 42bit and out put at 42bit and do everything needed
>post scan (I read a lot about people fighting this scanner trying to
>turn it into an editing device so I'll skip that)
>
>So I'll still need a way to calibrate [only?] my Color printer a Canon i960
>but I can worry about that later.

Yes, but if you decide anytime soon that you want the Eye-One Photo 
solution, which I guess is certainly a contender, especially for 
anyone with more than one printer, then I believe CHROMiX.com would 
bundle the Eye-One Display solution for your monitor at no additional 
cost. So you might have an incentive to specify the whole system 
before precluding some of your options by buying some of it.


>Next to buy the monitor and start working on the Computer itself.
>
>WOW maybe I should just go finish the walls to my darkroom!

Good idea. 8)
--
Sam

BlueEye plus its
software is $100 - S150 more than its arguably superior competition.


OK Sam, I took a look at the recomended Viewsonic monitor and it's 
spec's look good. SO as you said above what is the "arguably superior 
competition" for the monitor calibration system? Which one works good 
and costs less then the Blue eye version?

Mark W.

At 4:46 AM +0000 3/23/04, awahlster wrote:
>[quoting me] BlueEye plus its software is $100 - S150 more than its 
>arguably superior competition.
>
>OK Sam, I took a look at the recomended Viewsonic monitor

(a new shadow-mask CRT,  ViewSonic's 19" Graphics model G90f/G90fb 
(for under $230 at Amazon.com) which Martin wrote he might get after 
he'd become disenchanted with NEC-Mitsubishi)

>and it's spec's look good. SO as you said above what is the "arguably superior
>competition" for the monitor calibration system? Which one works good
>and costs less then the Blue eye version?

At least two, I expect, Mark, both GretagMacbeth's Eye-One Display 
and X-Rite's MonacoOptix XR (not "Pro"):

>All four kits greatly improved the color accuracy on our test LCDs 
>and CRTs, but we noted some differences (see "Flat vs. Fat" for 
>details). Integrated Color Solutions' kit was slow, and it had a 
>confusing interface. The Pantone was good at tuning in saturated 
>blues, but its red-yellow range was slightly limited. Both the 
>GretagMacbeth and X-Rite products brought out a fuller color range 
>and more detail in shadows than the other two kits. But X-Rite's 
>exceptional performance earns it our Best Buy nod. It achieved the 
>deepest shades of blue and the finest gray-scale 
>transitions--allowing our LCD to match the subtleties that 
>previously only high-end CRTs could achieve. The GretagMacbeth has 
>the slickest and most intuitive interface of all the kits, but the 
>X-Rite is fairly easy to navigate; and it has more-advanced 
>functions, such as the ability to calibrate for a custom color 
>temperature or according to ambient light conditions. [a quote from 
>this page on PCWorld's website:]
<http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,114148,pg,7,00.asp>

The X-Rite MonacoOptix XR is about $220 at B&H; together with the 
Viewsonic G90f/b, $450 - only $50 more than the BlueEye alone.

The Eye-One Display is a little more. Or in effect _free_ at 
CHROMiX.com (see "Color Gear") if you buy instead the Eye-One Photo 
bundle, with which you can also profile your printers. So, I was 
trying to say, that illustrates the value in specifying (and 
budgeting for) a system which spans the entire workflow and not 
buying anything until you see how the various module options best 
combine into a balanced whole. I don't mean to imply, Mark, that you 
should profile your printers yourself. In fact, I think most of us 
probably would be better off buying custom-made 
printer-and-ink-and-paper profiles from CHROMiX.com for about $70 - 
$80 each, but that's beside the point.
--
Sam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>  I don't mean to imply, Mark, that you
> should profile your printers yourself. In fact, I think most of us
> probably would be better off buying custom-made
> printer-and-ink-and-paper profiles from CHROMiX.com for about $70 -
> $80 each, but that's beside the point.
> --
> Sam
>
>

Sam,

Arguably so, but given a few conditions:  that you're sticking to one 
ink, and one or two papers.  I have paid a fair amount of money for an 
Eye One and ProfileMaker (and ProfilerPro, before that), it's true.  
But I have printers running three inks, and like to experiment with new 
papers occasionally.  And I like the convenience of being able to do my 
profiling without waiting for deliveries and turnaround time.  
Actually, by my calculator, you could get some 42 profiles at $70 each 
before amortizing the amount of investment I have in my current gear, 
so yes, you're certainly right that for most people it would make a lot 
of sense to have someone like Chromix make a profile.  On the other 
hand, I look around at all the targets I've generated over a number of 
years, all the ones I've already thrown away, and all the ones I still 
have the freedom to make, and think that for someone like me, the gear 
is worth it.  Just my .2 for anyone considering various alternatives.

James Irelan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mar 22, 2004, at 12:53 AM, awahlster wrote:

> So I'll still need a way to calibrate my Color printer a Canon i960
> but I can worry about that later.

Mark,

Profiling the i960 is the easy part.
Out of the box, our customers haven't been very happy with the generic 
profiles.
The i960 profiles beautifully. Custom profiles seem to make a huge 
difference with this model.
Will you be using it for color and B&W or as a dedicated B&W setup?

John Toles
Dragonfly Imaging & Printing
http://www.dragonflyprinting.com/
http://www.dragonflygallery.ca/

> Mark,
> 
> Profiling the i960 is the easy part.
> Out of the box, our customers haven't been very happy with the 
generic 
> profiles.
> The i960 profiles beautifully. Custom profiles seem to make a huge 
> difference with this model.
> Will you be using it for color and B&W or as a dedicated B&W setup?
> 
> John, The i960 will be used only for color photo printing and most 
likely when I figure it out only a couple of different papers. Ones I 
can buy in 13X19 sizes and cut down (I have access to a buddy with a 
print shop and he can cut paper perfectly to what ever size I want).

I have an Epson 890 that will be used for B&W photo printing ONLY 
with MIS UT-2 inks.

I have a nice older HP 932 ink using monster for all general printing 
so these two will only do the photos stuff.

As to any type of profiling being easy well we will see a lot of this 
is about 6" over my head I can see it I can make some of it out but I 
can't quite get a solid grip on it yet. Once I get all the hardware 
to my new system in pale then I'll start asking all those questions 
about HOW.

Thanks 

Mark W.