Digital BW, The Print

Hi, just joined the group. Im looking for some suggestion on 
minimilizing metamerism. I printing black and white images on a epson 
1280 using premium glossy photo paper and matte heavyweight paper. Im 
currently printing straight RGB, I have toned prints in the past to 
deal with the color shift, but I would like to print a particular 
project without toning. Can someone offer some insight. Would 
enhanced matte paper, printing at a higher dpi, and/or making a clor 
adjustment help any? Im a photo major and this is my first semester 
printing digital, and so far I love it, except for the metamorism 
that is ;) Thanks, Adrian

Adrian,

Just got a copy of Nik Classic Design Set

http://www.nikmultimedia.com/colorefexpro/usa/entry.php?
view=classicdesign

While their B&W conversion is good, the "Duplex" plug-in is 
all one needs to do excellent B&W conversion. 

 http://www.usefilm.com/image/431134.html

It's a slick interface that increases contrast and hence sharpness
while allowing you to give the photo any tint you desire (or have
on file).

Regards all,

Bob




 Im looking for some suggestion on 
> minimilizing metamerism. I printing black and white images on a 
epson 
> 1280 using premium glossy photo paper and matte heavyweight paper. 
Im 
>  Thanks, Adrian

Adrian,


>... Im looking for some suggestion on minimilizing metamerism. 
>I printing black and white images on a epson 1280 using premium 
>glossy photo paper and matte heavyweight paper. 
>Im currently printing straight RGB, I have toned prints in the past to 
>deal with the color shift, but I would like to print a particular 
>project without toning. ...

Metamerism is caused by the a print having an uneven spectral response -- a
spectral curve that has some lumps in it.  When one makes a grayscale image
from a color inkset, these are inevitable.  Even if the RGB values are the
same, light sources are not entirely even or equal in their spectral
characteristics.  It's the "lumpiness" of the light source interacting with
the lumpiness of the prints inks that causes the "gray" tones to look
different colors under different lighting.

The eyes are much more sensitive to changes is hues in a neutral print than
in one that has substantial color.  So, this problem affects B&W prints the
most.

The way most of us avoid serious problems is to use B&W inksets where the
image is composed predominantly of carbon, not color pigments or dyes.
Epson chose essentially the same (partial) solution with the UltraChrome
approach of running a light black ink up into the shadow tones where the RGB
values are the same.  One might also minimize metamerism by having more
colors in an inkset.  The resulting grayscale spectral curve might then have
more but lower lumps in it.  The R800 comes to mind.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul and others,

Would the installation of Epson Stylus RIP help to minimize metamerism?

Perry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Paul Roark 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 5/2/2004 12:21:09 PM 
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism


Adrian,


>... Im looking for some suggestion on minimilizing metamerism. 
>I printing black and white images on a epson 1280 using premium 
>glossy photo paper and matte heavyweight paper. 
>Im currently printing straight RGB, I have toned prints in the past to 
>deal with the color shift, but I would like to print a particular 
>project without toning. ...

Metamerism is caused by the a print having an uneven spectral response -- a
spectral curve that has some lumps in it.  When one makes a grayscale image
from a color inkset, these are inevitable.  Even if the RGB values are the
same, light sources are not entirely even or equal in their spectral
characteristics.  It's the "lumpiness" of the light source interacting with
the lumpiness of the prints inks that causes the "gray" tones to look
different colors under different lighting.

The eyes are much more sensitive to changes is hues in a neutral print than
in one that has substantial color.  So, this problem affects B&W prints the
most.

The way most of us avoid serious problems is to use B&W inksets where the
image is composed predominantly of carbon, not color pigments or dyes.
Epson chose essentially the same (partial) solution with the UltraChrome
approach of running a light black ink up into the shadow tones where the RGB
values are the same.  One might also minimize metamerism by having more
colors in an inkset.  The resulting grayscale spectral curve might then have
more but lower lumps in it.  The R800 comes to mind.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Would the installation of Epson Stylus RIP help to minimize metamerism?

With the UltraChrome inkset a RIP can run the light black ink all the way up
the scale.  As such, the metamerism is substantially reduced in B&W images.

With a color-only inkset, I am very skeptical that any software can
significantly reduce the metamerism.  I see the problem as an ink spectral
response issue.  A print with a flat spectral response, with no spikes or
"lumps," will not have metamerism.  How one gets to such a curve is going to
be limited by the inks that are in the printer.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
________________________

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Paul Roark 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 5/2/2004 12:21:09 PM 
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism


Adrian,


>... Im looking for some suggestion on minimilizing metamerism. 
>I printing black and white images on a epson 1280 using premium 
>glossy photo paper and matte heavyweight paper. 
>Im currently printing straight RGB, I have toned prints in the past to 
>deal with the color shift, but I would like to print a particular 
>project without toning. ...

Metamerism is caused by the a print having an uneven spectral response -- a
spectral curve that has some lumps in it.  When one makes a grayscale image
from a color inkset, these are inevitable.  Even if the RGB values are the
same, light sources are not entirely even or equal in their spectral
characteristics.  It's the "lumpiness" of the light source interacting with
the lumpiness of the prints inks that causes the "gray" tones to look
different colors under different lighting.

The eyes are much more sensitive to changes is hues in a neutral print than
in one that has substantial color.  So, this problem affects B&W prints the
most.

The way most of us avoid serious problems is to use B&W inksets where the
image is composed predominantly of carbon, not color pigments or dyes.
Epson chose essentially the same (partial) solution with the UltraChrome
approach of running a light black ink up into the shadow tones where the RGB
values are the same.  One might also minimize metamerism by having more
colors in an inkset.  The resulting grayscale spectral curve might then have
more but lower lumps in it.  The R800 comes to mind.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
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"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >Would the installation of Epson Stylus RIP help to minimize metamerism?
> 
> With the UltraChrome inkset a RIP can run the light black ink all
the way up
> the scale.

Unfortunately this may be the one and only RIP that will not let you
do that, unless it's been substantially upgraded recently. It's an RGB
RIP and will not let you control K, really all it does is let you
print postscript, essentailly behaving exactly like the Epson driver
in all other respects. It was made available for proofing on Epsons
from page layout programs or others requiring postscript rendering,
EPS, fonts, etc.
Everything sent to it, including CMYK, will be converted back to RGB
and a new K will be generated similar, if not identical, to the Epson
driver's K generation.
It was always too big, too buggy, and too slow, too featureless. Of
course you are correct about RIPs, but unless Epson Stylus RIP has
been substantially updated don't get your hopes up for this one.
Tyler

The bottles printed exactly like on the monitor, (calibrated with 
monaco), as black as black gets with no hint of color (epson 7600,
ultrachrome inks, qimage).

http://www.usefilm.com/image/431134.html

Why make it more complicated than that?


;)

Bob


> 
> With a color-only inkset, I am very skeptical that any software can
> significantly reduce the metamerism.  I see the problem as an ink 
spectral

No, and Epson will tell you that too.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Perry McNeal" <pjmcneal@m...> 
wrote:

> Paul and others,
> 
> Would the installation of Epson Stylus RIP help to minimize metamerism?
> 
> Perry
>

Yes, thanks for correcting my response.  I should have said a "good RIP"
that runs the light black up the scale can help metamerism.  I have no
experience with the Epson RIP. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
______________

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...] 
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 10:57 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >Would the installation of Epson Stylus RIP help to minimize metamerism?
> 
> With the UltraChrome inkset a RIP can run the light black ink all
the way up
> the scale.

Unfortunately this may be the one and only RIP that will not let you
do that, unless it's been substantially upgraded recently. It's an RGB
RIP and will not let you control K, really all it does is let you
print postscript, essentailly behaving exactly like the Epson driver
in all other respects. It was made available for proofing on Epsons
from page layout programs or others requiring postscript rendering,
EPS, fonts, etc.
Everything sent to it, including CMYK, will be converted back to RGB
and a new K will be generated similar, if not identical, to the Epson
driver's K generation.
It was always too big, too buggy, and too slow, too featureless. Of
course you are correct about RIPs, but unless Epson Stylus RIP has
been substantially updated don't get your hopes up for this one.
Tyler



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Aj" 
<ajkaya420@y...> wrote:
> Hi, just joined the group. Im looking for some suggestion on 
> minimilizing metamerism. I printing black and white images on a 
epson 
> 1280 using premium glossy photo paper and matte heavyweight paper. 
Im 
> currently printing straight RGB, I have toned prints in the past 
to 
> deal with the color shift, but I would like to print a particular 
> project without toning. Can someone offer some insight. Would 
> enhanced matte paper, printing at a higher dpi, and/or making a 
clor 
> adjustment help any?

I couldn't tell from your posting whether it was clear to you, so 
just for clarity and help for any newbies who might be reading this 
let's define metamerism:   Metamerism is the phenomenon of images 
having a DIFFERENT color cast under DIFFERENT lighting.   It's most 
noticable with black and white because we expect black and white to 
be neutral and notice when it isn't.   In the case of this group's 
most popular printer, the Epson 2200, prints commonly have a magenta 
color cast under "daylight" fluorescents but a green cast under 
actual daylight.   

You cannot fix metamerism with your choice of paper or dot-density 
because it's a characteristic of the inks.   It is caused by inks 
having a "peaky" spectral response, i.e., instead of the response 
curve being a smooth curve with its peak being at a particular 
wavelength, depending on the color of the ink, it has multipe sharp 
peaks and valleys. 

In the case of the Epson 2200 the worst offender is the yellow ink 
so you can buy RIPs for big buck$ that produce BW by minimizing the 
yellow.  I don't know which ink(s) is the villain with the 1270.   
You can also buy dedicated BW quadtone/hextone inks and turn your 
1270 into a dedicated BW printer.   

Or you can print using the black ink only (so called "black only" 
printing).    Note that many people find the dots and coarseness in 
the midtones objectionable with this method.     I recently did some 
experiments showing people black only prints and also showing them 
VERY small text - approx .85mm high - which is just at the limit of 
what people can read with the unaided eye.   Sure enough, the people 
who objected to the dotting were the same ones who could read the 
text and those who could not read the text thought the prints looked 
fine.   This confirmed my theory that whether people find BO 
printing acceptable may come down to visual acuity or whether they 
need new glasses.    

See my website for a discussion of some of these issues:
http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22001.htm

(At the time I wrote it there were no 3rd-party BW inks for the 2200 
so they were not discussed.   Also N.B. that the Epson RIP appears 
to have been discontinued by the company)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Perry McNeal" 
<pjmcneal@m...> wrote:
> Paul and others,
> 
> Would the installation of Epson Stylus RIP help to minimize 
metamerism?

Yes . . . 


http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm



. . .  BUT

Epseon appears to have discontinued it.   I contacted the Epson 
Store a few weeks ago and they said they no longer sell it.   Do you 
know any place to get it?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> It was made available for proofing on Epsons
> from page layout programs or others requiring postscript rendering,
> EPS, fonts, etc.
> Everything sent to it, including CMYK, will be converted back to 
RGB
> and a new K will be generated similar, if not identical, to the 
Epson
> driver's K generation.

This simply is not true.   See:

http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm

I wish when people post comments like this they would provide the 
supporting evidence and images!    I found the BW output of the IP 
RIP and the Epson RIP to be almost identical and both were WAY 
better than the default Epson driver for BW printing.   The Epson 
RIP was also way cheaper.   Anyway it's a moot point now because the 
Epson RIP appears to be history.

The behavior I described is indeed true unless, as I said twice, the
product has been upgraded, so thank you for the additional info. I
used it for years, it's behavior was well known, you can certainly ask
any respected expert out there that wrestled with it and they will
agree. I tossed it long ago, certainly don't have any proof lying
about, it's sort of like asking for proof that circles are round.
Aside from the above though, if the current Epson RIP will indeed let
you run a long K utilizing both the dark and light K inks then my
apologies for misleading the poster.
On the other hand, my suspisions would be that it still behaves as it
always did, RGB in with preconfigured K gen, with any single K Epson
printer, it would be worth checking out.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > It was made available for proofing on Epsons
> > from page layout programs or others requiring postscript rendering,
> > EPS, fonts, etc.
> > Everything sent to it, including CMYK, will be converted back to 
> RGB
> > and a new K will be generated similar, if not identical, to the 
> Epson
> > driver's K generation.
> 
> This simply is not true.   See:
> 
> http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm
> 
> I wish when people post comments like this they would provide the 
> supporting evidence and images!    I found the BW output of the IP 
> RIP and the Epson RIP to be almost identical and both were WAY 
> better than the default Epson driver for BW printing.   The Epson 
> RIP was also way cheaper.   Anyway it's a moot point now because the 
> Epson RIP appears to be history.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> The behavior I described is indeed true unless, as I said twice, 
the
> product has been upgraded, so thank you for the additional info. I
> used it for years, it's behavior was well known, you can certainly 
ask
> any respected expert out there that wrestled with it and they will
> agree. I tossed it long ago, certainly don't have any proof lying
> about, it's sort of like asking for proof that circles are round.

No it's not.  A circle is round by definition.

As you can see from the images in my link, the output of the Epson 
RIP is VERY ndifferent from output of the default driver and looks 
very similar to the IP RIP output.

Also, I don't know how you could have been using the Epson Stylus 
RIP for the 2200 "for years" when it only came out AFTER the printer 
came out, and the printer has only been out for less than 2 years.
Are you sure you're not confusing it with the RIP for the 2000?

---peter

> I wish when people post comments like this they would provide the 
> supporting evidence and images!    I found the BW output of the IP 
> RIP and the Epson RIP to be almost identical and both were WAY 
> better than the default Epson driver for BW printing.   The Epson 
> RIP was also way cheaper.   Anyway it's a moot point now because the 
> Epson RIP appears to be history. 

I think the original question referred to reducing metamerism on the
1280. Since that printer doesn't have the light black ink it would be
impossible to reduce metamerism even with a RIP. 

The print sample I have from Epson StylusRIP printed with a 2200 was
very warm. It's not clear to me whether this RIP will allow you to
adjust the tone like Imageprint does.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > The behavior I described is indeed true unless, as I said twice, 
> the
> > product has been upgraded, so thank you for the additional info. I
> > used it for years, it's behavior was well known, you can certainly 
> ask
> > any respected expert out there that wrestled with it and they will
> > agree. I tossed it long ago, certainly don't have any proof lying
> > about, it's sort of like asking for proof that circles are round.
> 
> No it's not.  A circle is round by definition.

My point exactly

snip...
> Also, I don't know how you could have been using the Epson Stylus 
> RIP for the 2200 "for years" when it only came out AFTER the printer 
> came out, and the printer has only been out for less than 2 years.
> Are you sure you're not confusing it with the RIP for the 2000?

No confusion here, Epson Stylus RIP has been around for a very long
time, I've used it with an EX, that is a long time ago. Also with a
3000. I made no mention of the 2200, if I recall neither did the
original poster.
Hope that clears things up.
Tyler

Try Bowhaus's open printmaker. It comes with two curves for a warm and cool
mono that uses black, light black and a color for tone. You can blend them
for neutral. And, so far, it's free.

Mike

From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@tylerboley.com>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 15:57:51 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > The behavior I described is indeed true unless, as I said twice,
> the
> > product has been upgraded, so thank you for the additional info. I
> > used it for years, it's behavior was well known, you can certainly
> ask
> > any respected expert out there that wrestled with it and they will
> > agree. I tossed it long ago, certainly don't have any proof lying
> > about, it's sort of like asking for proof that circles are round.
> 
> No it's not.  A circle is round by definition.

My point exactly

snip...
> Also, I don't know how you could have been using the Epson Stylus
> RIP for the 2200 "for years" when it only came out AFTER the printer
> came out, and the printer has only been out for less than 2 years.
> Are you sure you're not confusing it with the RIP for the 2000?

No confusion here, Epson Stylus RIP has been around for a very long
time, I've used it with an EX, that is a long time ago. Also with a
3000. I made no mention of the 2200, if I recall neither did the
original poster.
Hope that clears things up.
Tyler



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kitei 
<mkitei@b...> wrote:
> Try Bowhaus's open printmaker. It comes with two curves for a warm 
and cool
> mono that uses black, light black and a color for tone. You can 
blend them
> for neutral. And, so far, it's free.

Sure, it's free if you don't count the cost of buying a Mac.

Peter  -
 
With all due respect, it is not possible to do a useful evaluation of printed output by viewing electronic files.  So, viewing your site is not going to provide any insight to the issue.
 
Tom Baker


Peter Nelson <pnweb@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
wrote:
> The behavior I described is indeed true unless, as I said twice, 
the
> product has been upgraded, so thank you for the additional info. I
> used it for years, it's behavior was well known, you can certainly 
ask
> any respected expert out there that wrestled with it and they will
> agree. I tossed it long ago, certainly don't have any proof lying
> about, it's sort of like asking for proof that circles are round.

No it's not. A circle is round by definition.

As you can see from the images in my link, the output of the Epson 
RIP is VERY ndifferent from output of the default driver and looks 
very similar to the IP RIP output.

Also, I don't know how you could have been using the Epson Stylus 
RIP for the 2200 "for years" when it only came out AFTER the printer 
came out, and the printer has only been out for less than 2 years.
Are you sure you're not confusing it with the RIP for the 2000?

---peter






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 -

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> This simply is not true.   See:
> 
> http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm

Hey look, Peter is back.

~Plonk~

Yes, I did buy one and it is new and in the box.  I am willing to sell it for what I paid for it about two weeks ago which is $88.oo and a few bucks for shipping.  It will save me returning it.  I have decided not to use ti.

Perry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Peter Nelson 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 5/3/2004 9:50:21 AM 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Perry McNeal" 
<pjmcneal@m...> wrote:
> Paul and others,
> 
> Would the installation of Epson Stylus RIP help to minimize 
metamerism?

Yes . . . 


http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm



. . .  BUT

Epseon appears to have discontinued it.   I contacted the Epson 
Store a few weeks ago and they said they no longer sell it.   Do you 
know any place to get it?







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Peter  -
>  
> With all due respect, it is not possible to do a useful evaluation 
of printed output by viewing electronic files.  So, viewing your 
site is not going to provide any insight to the issue.

Have you actually looked?

If you had you would see that these aren't scans of full images - 
they are scans of the individual dots.  You can clearly see that the 
patterns and colors of the two RIPs are virtually the same as each 
other and distinctly different from the default driver.

---peter

I use the Epson RIP for the 2200 all the time and it works 
beautifully for BW except it prints warm and you cannot change that. 
But for prints that I want printed with a warm tone the RIP is 
abolutely great. Night and day between the RIP and the stock driver 
for BW. No metamerism noticable with the RIP.

As a matter of fact, a print from the RIP is what I use as my 
benchmark for judging other digital BW printing methods.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sanfo2003" 
<SandyCornelius@c...> wrote:
> I use the Epson RIP for the 2200 all the time and it works 
> beautifully for BW except it prints warm and you cannot change 
that. 
> But for prints that I want printed with a warm tone the RIP is 
> abolutely great. Night and day between the RIP and the stock 
driver 
> for BW. No metamerism noticable with the RIP.
> 
> As a matter of fact, a print from the RIP is what I use as my 
> benchmark for judging other digital BW printing methods.

I agree on both counts.   Both it and the IP RIP seem to print a bit 
warm, and both do a good job controlling metamerism.   All of this 
probably reflects the fact that the Epson "light black" is actually 
sepia, not gray,  and even the regular Epson Matte Black is a little 
warm as you can see in black-only prints on the 2200. 

Anyway, it all seems to be academic now, since at least according to 
the Epson Store they no longer offer the 2200 Stylus RIP.

The main take-away from all this is that the 2200 is perfectly 
capable of printing a decent metamerism-free BW print using the UC 
inks, with the right software.   It's RIDICULOUS that 2200 owners 
should have to go out and buy a RIP, which is a professional tool 
designed for commercial print shops, just to make a decent black and 
white print.   This is like having to buy a hydraulic lift used in 
service stations just to change your cars' oil.

I CANNOT understand why Epson doesn't offer a driver that uses a the 
same algorithm as their discontinued RIP for BW printing.   It's not 
like they have some competing product for you to buy instead.   It 
just loses them business to 3rd-party ink and printer companies!

"Peter Nelson" wrote:
> It's RIDICULOUS that 2200 owners 
> should have to go out and buy a RIP, which is a professional tool 
> designed for commercial print shops, just to make a decent black and 
> white print.   This is like having to buy a hydraulic lift used in 
> service stations just to change your cars' oil.

If using  Mac w/OS X the rip to get is QTR using Carl's curves for the 2200 w/Epson inks.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" 
<jvlist@c...> wrote:
> "Peter Nelson" wrote:
> > It's RIDICULOUS that 2200 owners 
> > should have to go out and buy a RIP, which is a professional 
tool 
> > designed for commercial print shops, just to make a decent black 
and 
> > white print.   This is like having to buy a hydraulic lift used 
in 
> > service stations just to change your cars' oil.
> 
> If using  Mac w/OS X the rip to get is QTR using Carl's curves for 
the 2200 w/Epson inks.

Earlier today someone suggested Bowhaus's open printmaker. 

I'm an AAPL stockholder so I suppose I should be grateful, but I 
don't actually use a Mac and the last statistic (from IDC) I saw 
showed Mac's having a market penetration of about 3%.   Even if they 
are 3 or 4 times as common as that in the world of digital 
photography, that still means that probably 80% of us are using 
PC's.   (IDC says desktop Linux is 3.2%)   So how come people keep 
coming out for these things for Mac's?   I write Wintel sw for a 
living so I know it's not hard to program and since the Wintel 
market is vastly bigger how come these's no Wintel product like that 
that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

Hello,

Are you printing on Glossy paper?

Perry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: sanfo2003 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 5/3/2004 4:15:06 PM 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism


I use the Epson RIP for the 2200 all the time and it works 
beautifully for BW except it prints warm and you cannot change that. 
But for prints that I want printed with a warm tone the RIP is 
abolutely great. Night and day between the RIP and the stock driver 
for BW. No metamerism noticable with the RIP.

As a matter of fact, a print from the RIP is what I use as my 
benchmark for judging other digital BW printing methods.



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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Epson RIP is available Epson 1200, 1270, 200P and 1280 and several other models.
http://www.provantage.com

Perry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Peter Nelson 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 5/3/2004 4:50:10 PM 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sanfo2003" 
<SandyCornelius@c...> wrote:
> I use the Epson RIP for the 2200 all the time and it works 
> beautifully for BW except it prints warm and you cannot change 
that. 
> But for prints that I want printed with a warm tone the RIP is 
> abolutely great. Night and day between the RIP and the stock 
driver 
> for BW. No metamerism noticable with the RIP.
> 
> As a matter of fact, a print from the RIP is what I use as my 
> benchmark for judging other digital BW printing methods.

I agree on both counts.   Both it and the IP RIP seem to print a bit 
warm, and both do a good job controlling metamerism.   All of this 
probably reflects the fact that the Epson "light black" is actually 
sepia, not gray,  and even the regular Epson Matte Black is a little 
warm as you can see in black-only prints on the 2200. 

Anyway, it all seems to be academic now, since at least according to 
the Epson Store they no longer offer the 2200 Stylus RIP.

The main take-away from all this is that the 2200 is perfectly 
capable of printing a decent metamerism-free BW print using the UC 
inks, with the right software.   It's RIDICULOUS that 2200 owners 
should have to go out and buy a RIP, which is a professional tool 
designed for commercial print shops, just to make a decent black and 
white print.   This is like having to buy a hydraulic lift used in 
service stations just to change your cars' oil.

I CANNOT understand why Epson doesn't offer a driver that uses a the 
same algorithm as their discontinued RIP for BW printing.   It's not 
like they have some competing product for you to buy instead.   It 
just loses them business to 3rd-party ink and printer companies!






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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/3/2004 1:51:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pnweb@... writes:
Snip>
> It's RIDICULOUS that 2200 owners 
> should have to go out and buy a RIP, which is a professional tool 
> designed for commercial print shops, just to make a decent black and 
> white print.   This is like having to buy a hydraulic lift used in 
> service stations just to change your cars' oil.
> Snip>
You want professional results? you gotta buy professional tools. 
First of all dump the color inks, if you want to go cheap!
I think its RIDICULOUS that one would even buy the Stock 2200 for black and 
white printing.
If that's the way you choose to go, than you have deal with its problems. 
Your idea of a decent print is probably a far cry from Epson's idea of one.
Where did the idea that 699.00 gets you great black and white prints and 
color no fuss no muss come from.


Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can get very very good (is that great?) B&W prints and colour at the
same time with the Epson UC inks.  If you run a Mac try Roy Harrington¹s QTR
for B&W before plonking down additional money for a RIP or another printer
to dedicate for B&W.  I certainly recommend this as a starting point.  The
difference between this and the Epson driver out of the box is simply
amazing.  It may not be the ABSOLUTE BEST.  For that I would agree there is
likely some additional benefit to quad inks.  (How much?) BUT for the novice
who has a limited budget or space or is simply coming up the learning curve
on this stuff I would strongly recommend maximising results with your
existing equipment (and a nominal donation to Roy) before you start spending
a lot more money.  You will likely be pleasantly surprised at the results.


From: sdmey4@...

Where did the idea that 699.00 gets you great black and white prints and
color no fuss no muss come from.


Steve M.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... 
wrote:
> In a message dated 5/3/2004 1:51:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> pnweb@s... writes:
> Snip>
> > It's RIDICULOUS that 2200 owners 
> > should have to go out and buy a RIP, which is a professional tool 
> > designed for commercial print shops, just to make a decent black 
and 
> > white print.   This is like having to buy a hydraulic lift used 
in 
> > service stations just to change your cars' oil.
> > Snip>
> You want professional results? you gotta buy professional tools. 

Sure, but that's not what a RIP is for!

A RIP is designed for use in a professional, commercial print shop 
and most of its capabilities and features are to support that.  Its 
ability to make decent black and white prints is just a side effect.  
It's about 1% of its feature set.  Buying a RIP just to make black 
and white prints is like buying an expensive sports car because you 
like the leather seats and want to put them in your living room.

The fact is that the 2200 with the native inks is perfectly capable 
of making good, metamerism-free BW prints with the right software.  
That sw COULD be incorporated into the driver but for some reason 
Epson didn't.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> You can get very very good (is that great?) B&W prints and colour 
at the
> same time with the Epson UC inks.  If you run a Mac try Roy 
Harrington¹s QTR
> for B&W 

Would someone please answer my question of why there seem to be so 
many tools for Mac's and not for PC's?   IDC reported in February 
that Apple has 3% of the total desktop market.   Even if we assume 
that Mac's are FIVE TIMES that popular among digital photography 
buffs (a big assumption, IMO) that would still only be a 15% market 
share.   Since I write Wintel sw for a living I know PC's are not 
hard to program so what's up with this?

In a message dated 5/3/2004 5:39:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pnweb@... writes:
Snip>
> Sure, but that's not what a RIP is for!



> A RIP is designed for use in a professional, commercial print shop 
> and most of its capabilities and features are to support that.  Its 
> ability to make decent black and white prints is just a side effect.  
> It's about 1% of its feature set.  Buying a RIP just to make black 
> and white prints is like buying an expensive sports car because you 
> like the leather seats and want to put them in your living room.
> 
> The fact is that the 2200 with the native inks is perfectly capable 
> of making good, metamerism-free BW prints with the right software.  
> That sw COULD be incorporated into the driver but for some reason 
> Epson didn't.
> 
Well thats the story! Epson didn't, COULD have but DIDN'T. so here we are. 
Roys's QTR is great, but no Mac here.
And I wouldn't dream of the Linix/unix whatever install. 
I have never seen so much grief and whinning on this list since the 2200 came 
out. 
And take a real good look, The epson Blacks just plain suck big time.
So even if you get a cheap free RIP to tame those color inks, you still got 
crap for blacks
And IMHO your forced to go to 3rd party inks anyway.
Who needs the grief at all. All that fooling around can put a beginner in the 
poor house faster than buying pro tools.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mac has traditionally been the platform for graphic arts computer users. I
spent a fair number of years as a creative director for an ad agency. We
bought pcs for the account geeks and macs for the creatives. It just works
better that way.

mike

From: "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 00:44:17 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] looking for suggestions on dealing with metamerism


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> You can get very very good (is that great?) B&W prints and colour
at the
> same time with the Epson UC inks.  If you run a Mac try Roy
Harrington¹s QTR
> for B&W 

Would someone please answer my question of why there seem to be so
many tools for Mac's and not for PC's?   IDC reported in February
that Apple has 3% of the total desktop market.   Even if we assume
that Mac's are FIVE TIMES that popular among digital photography
buffs (a big assumption, IMO) that would still only be a 15% market
share.   Since I write Wintel sw for a living I know PC's are not
hard to program so what's up with this?





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On May 3, 2004, at 7:44 PM, Peter Nelson wrote:

> Would someone please answer my question of why there seem to be so
> many tools for Mac's and not for PC's?

My numbers are a little old but in the not too distant past and 
possibly still Apple had/has the majority when it came to graphics and 
digital imaging, at one point it had 80% of that market. This is why 
you see these tools developed for the Mac and not the PC.

cort

--
Cort Anderson
Training Wheels, llc
www.trwheels.com
620-488-2960
620-488-3196 fax

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cort Anderson 
<stats@t...> wrote:
> On May 3, 2004, at 7:44 PM, Peter Nelson wrote:
> 
> > Would someone please answer my question of why there seem to be so
> > many tools for Mac's and not for PC's?
> 
> My numbers are a little old but in the not too distant past and 
> possibly still Apple had/has the majority when it came to graphics 
and 
> digital imaging, at one point it had 80% of that market. This is 
why 
> you see these tools developed for the Mac and not the PC.


I think that's distant history.    In a recent Issue of Mac Design 
magazine they did a report from PMA cpmplaining that Mac was ignoring 
digital photography.    And CNet Magazine recently noted that Apple's 
relationship with Adobe has cooled considerably and Adobe has 
discintinued support for some of its products on Apple platforms.
Also, when I read Communication Arts I see far more references to PC 
than Apple products.    I know lots of serious digital photographers 
with DSLR's and film scanners and NONE of them have Apples.

So I agree that in the old days Apple dominated that market but I 
don't see the evidence it does anymore.   In the old days Lotus 
dominated the word processing and spreadsheet market too.  How many 
people still use Ami Pro and Lotus 1-2-3?

> 
> cort
> 
> --
> Cort Anderson
> Training Wheels, llc
> www.trwheels.com
> 620-488-2960
> 620-488-3196 fax

In a message dated 5/3/04 9:09:48 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:


> Would someone please answer my question of why there seem to be so
> many tools for Mac's and not for PC's?
> 
Uh, because Windows sucks and people printing b+w photographs have better 
sense?

Sanders McNew
www.mcnew.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks everyone for the great replies. Ive learned a lot, although 
its seems theres not much I can do at this point. Im doing all my 
printing at school until I can afford my own set up and of course I 
cant use any inks other than the epson color inks, and I cant install 
any software. I resorted to reprinting the images on heavyweight 
matte paper, and redoing the levels adjustments while leaving any 
curves adjustments out, the mid tones were really blocking up and 
these were the areas where most of the color was present. I also 
added a little noise to break these areas up. The images look pretty 
good, although ive learned that the ink on the 1280s is very unstable 
so I hope they look as good in a couple of days. Thanks again for the 
help, I think I will learn a lot here ;) Later, Adrian

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Aj" 
<ajkaya420@y...> wrote:
> Hi, just joined the group. Im looking for some suggestion on 
> minimilizing metamerism. I printing black and white images on a 
epson 
> 1280 using premium glossy photo paper and matte heavyweight paper. 
Im 
> currently printing straight RGB, I have toned prints in the past to 
> deal with the color shift, but I would like to print a particular 
> project without toning. Can someone offer some insight. Would 
> enhanced matte paper, printing at a higher dpi, and/or making a 
clor 

> adjustment help any? Im a photo major and this is my first semester 
> printing digital, and so far I love it, except for the metamorism 
> that is ;) Thanks, Adrian

My Epson 1520 had a stubborn hard-to-clean head.  Followed advice here I 
put a few drops of windex on the pads, waited an hour, and after a few 
cleanings nozzle check was now fine.  I then switched to MIS quadtone ink, 
with the old Cone driver.  Great results! ... except now I get big ink 
drops on many of my prints, as if ink is dripping from the head.  Touched 
the pad with a lint free cloth, and it is not saturated.  What should I do 
next?

  A r t h u r    F i n k      P h o t o g r a p h y
  .................................................
  Ten New Island Avenue     � 207.766.5722
  Peaks Island, Maine 04108 � arthur@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Aj" 
>  The images look pretty good, although ive learned that 
> the ink on the 1280s is very unstable so I hope they 
> look as good in a couple of days. 

Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral BW prints for me 
on his 1280 using Epson's heavy Professional Matte paper as part of 
some experiments he was doing with new profiler he had bought.  I 
kept them in a drawer.  Today they are a nice rich shade of 
green.    Around the same time I made some color prints on my 870 
which uses similar inks and printed them on the same paper (but not 
from the same lot).  They've been pinned to my cubicile wall at work 
under fluorescent lights.   And they still look fine.   Go figure.

The most exasperating thing about inkjet prints is that their 
stability properties are a complete crap-shoot.    We can B.S. all 
we want here about ozone and humidity and fluorescent lights and 
paper and glass and whatnot.    I've had prints fade to orange, 
prints fade to green, prints just plain fade, and prints stay rock-
solid-unchanging for years!   I've printed on "professional" inkjet 
paper, brown-paper bags, laser-printer paper, construction paper, 
Canson MiTeintes pastel paper, cloth, gessoed canvas, and it's been 
totally random.  Some of my longest-lasting prints have been on 
totally unconventional materials.

By comparison, my wife and I collect art, and I've got stone-plate 
lithographs made over 100 years ago that look like they were done 
yesterday - the whites are white, the blacks are black and the reds 
and yellows would knock your socks off.

I found a paper written a while back by Henry Wilhelm called: "The
Intimate Relationships of Inks and Papers: You Can't Talk About the
Permanence of One Without Considering the Other" which you can read
here:

http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/emg/WilhelmPhotoPlus10_29_99.pdf

You might find it interesting.


On Wed, 2004-05-05 at 13:09, Peter Nelson wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Aj" 
> >  The images look pretty good, although ive learned that 
> > the ink on the 1280s is very unstable so I hope they 
> > look as good in a couple of days. 
> 
> Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral BW prints for me 
> on his 1280 using Epson's heavy Professional Matte paper as part of 
> some experiments he was doing with new profiler he had bought.  I 
> kept them in a drawer.  Today they are a nice rich shade of 
> green.    Around the same time I made some color prints on my 870 
> which uses similar inks and printed them on the same paper (but not 
> from the same lot).  They've been pinned to my cubicile wall at work 
> under fluorescent lights.   And they still look fine.   Go figure.
> 
> The most exasperating thing about inkjet prints is that their 
> stability properties are a complete crap-shoot.    We can B.S. all 
> we want here about ozone and humidity and fluorescent lights and 
> paper and glass and whatnot.    I've had prints fade to orange, 
> prints fade to green, prints just plain fade, and prints stay rock-
> solid-unchanging for years!   I've printed on "professional" inkjet 
> paper, brown-paper bags, laser-printer paper, construction paper, 
> Canson MiTeintes pastel paper, cloth, gessoed canvas, and it's been 
> totally random.  Some of my longest-lasting prints have been on 
> totally unconventional materials.
> 
> By comparison, my wife and I collect art, and I've got stone-plate 
> lithographs made over 100 years ago that look like they were done 
> yesterday - the whites are white, the blacks are black and the reds 
> and yellows would knock your socks off.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth 
<hogarth@s...> wrote:
> I found a paper written a while back by Henry Wilhelm called: "The
> Intimate Relationships of Inks and Papers: You Can't Talk About the
> Permanence of One Without Considering the Other" which you can read
> here:
> 
> http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/emg/WilhelmPhotoPlus10_29_99.pdf
> 
> You might find it interesting.

Yes, I've read that.  That's why I made the point of saying that 
I've printed on every oddball material you can think of.    And in 
my experience nonstandard materials such as brown paper bags and 
artist's paper are no more OR less stable than official inkjet 
paper.   I've had rapid fading and no fading, and rapid color shifts 
and no color shifts on both.    Also, BTW, I use three different 
printers - an HP 970, an Epson 870, and an Epson 2200 (which is my 
main printer, but it sucks on glossy so I use one of the others for 
that).

The problem is that whether it's Wilhelm's research or our own 
random BS'ing here in this forum, we can only do true accelerated 
aging research if we deeply understand the chemistry of the inks and 
coatings.   And NOBODY except the manufacturer knows that because 
it's proprietary.   Without that knowledge we can't intelligently 
anticipate what factors might even matter in the paper: humidity, 
pH, lignin content, CaCO3 residue, glucuronoxylans content, zeta 
potential?  ET CETERA.

And that's just the PAPER - all of us are clueless about the inks, 
too.   Look at the discussion we just had about whether the size of 
the ink particles affects fading. 

You CANNOT do an accelerated aging test that's worth a damn unless 
you know what factors constitute an acceleration of the aging 
process, and that requires more understanding of the chemistry than 
anyone outside the company actually has. 

This is the biggest difference between BW photography and inkjet 
printing - i/j printing is black-box - we push buttons and make 
settings but the actual process is unknown and out of our control.  
In BW photography there is NO part of the process that's unknown or 
out of our control.   The physics and chemistry of BW film, 
developer and paper is all well-understood.  When I first started in 
photography (I'm 51) it was common for avid photographers to make 
their own developer, and some photographers still do.

Peter Nelson wrote:

>Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral BW prints for me 
>on his 1280...   I kept them in a drawer.  Today they are a nice 
>rich shade of green...

And I'll bet they were dye prints, not pigments.

>The most exasperating thing about inkjet prints is that their 
>stability properties are a complete crap-shoot.    ...

Not entirely.  We've known the differences between dyes and pigments for
years.

<hogarth@s...> wrote:
>> I found a paper written a while back by Henry Wilhelm called: "The 
>> Intimate Relationships of Inks and Papers: You Can't Talk About the 
>> Permanence of One Without Considering the Other" which you can read
>> here:  http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/emg/WilhelmPhotoPlus10_29_99.pdf

And this article was primarily looking at dye fade rates.  Pigments interact
much less with the substrate.   With dyes Wilhelm has seen fade rates vary
by 20x.  With, for example, UltraChrome 4000 pigments the variance is more
like 2x.

>...
>The problem is that whether it's Wilhelm's research or our own random
>BS'ing here in this forum, we can only do true accelerated aging research
>if we deeply understand the chemistry of the inks and 
>coatings.   And NOBODY except the manufacturer knows that because 
>it's proprietary.

I don't think Wilhelm knows the proprietary formulas, but I would not
characterize what he does "random BS'ing."  I also think much of the
information on this and other forums is well above that level.

One can, as they say, "curse the darkness or light a candle."  There are
enough flickering candles out there, even from little people like me, that
if one wants, the field is simply not what I'd call a "crap-shoot" -- nor is
it or any other risk free.

>...
>This is the biggest difference between BW photography and inkjet printing -
>i/j printing is black-box - we push buttons and make settings but the
>actual process is unknown and out of our control.  
>In BW photography there is NO part of the process that's unknown or 
>out of our control.   The physics and chemistry of BW film, 
>developer and paper is all well-understood.

Say what?  You think you know the proprietary ingredients of the photo paper
from the large manufacturers?  

I'd say those who think the old silver prints are somehow exempt from the
problems you're referring to are fooling themselves.  I had more losses from
the silver-print RC paper fiasco than I've had from inkjet prints.  And
those non-buffered, fiber-based silver-prints are being attacked by
air-borne acids and pollutants.  The silver oxides and becomes transparent.
The 1:19 selenium toning that A. Adams and many of the rest of us used turns
you to be insufficient. 

There is a very good chance that a carbon-pigment inkjet print on buffered
cotton paper will outlast the typical silver print in family albums.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Aj" 
> >  The images look pretty good, although ive learned that 
> > the ink on the 1280s is very unstable so I hope they 
> > look as good in a couple of days. 
> 
> Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral BW prints for me 
> on his 1280 using Epson's heavy Professional Matte paper as part of 
> some experiments he was doing with new profiler he had bought.  I 
> kept them in a drawer.  Today they are a nice rich shade of 
> green.   

This fact has been known for several years. If you want permanence, 
stay away from dye inksets.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Peter Nelson wrote:
> 
> >Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral BW prints for 
me 
> >on his 1280...   I kept them in a drawer.  Today they are a nice 
> >rich shade of green...
> 
> And I'll bet they were dye prints, not pigments.

Of course, but the 870 prints on the same paper that I mentioned 
sitting out under fluorescent lights for same the period of timne 
look fine.   The 870 and 1280 use very similar inks.   What this 
shows is that there are variables at work here that we don't have any 
idea about.

And anyway, even dye prints are usually expected to last more than 
two years, especially in a dark drawer.



> Say what?  You think you know the proprietary 
> ingredients of the photo paper from the large manufacturers?  

The basic chemistry of silver halide photography has been well 
understood by everyone for a century.  The differences between the 
standard papers by Ilford, Kodak, etc, haven't changed enough to 
matter for decades.   All the same developers and papers that I was 
using in the 1960's are still around today. 

 
> There is a very good chance that a carbon-pigment inkjet 
> print on buffered cotton paper will outlast the typical
> silver print in family albums.

The problem with that statement is that we don't even know what the 
so-called "carbon pigment" *IS* that used in the black inks, much 
less the "light black" used in multitone systems.   I agree that if 
the basic black is pyrolytic carbon black and the VEHICLE is stable, 
then the color should be stable for a long time.  But that's pure 
speculation.   That's why any statements ANYONE here makes about 
stability of inkjet prints is like trying to predict what the Dow 30 
Industrials will be on December 31 2006.    It's a crap shoot.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre" 
<am1000@v...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
> <pnweb@s...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Aj" 
> > >  The images look pretty good, although ive learned that 
> > > the ink on the 1280s is very unstable so I hope they 
> > > look as good in a couple of days. 
> > 
> > Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral BW prints for 
me 
> > on his 1280 using Epson's heavy Professional Matte paper as part 
of 
> > some experiments he was doing with new profiler he had bought.  I 
> > kept them in a drawer.  Today they are a nice rich shade of 
> > green.   
> 
> This fact has been known for several years. If you want permanence, 
> stay away from dye inksets.

No kidding but then how does that explain why the prints made on my 
870, which uses basically the same dye-based inks as the 1280, and 
which have been sitting out under fluorescents for the same amount of 
time look unchanged?    And besides, even dye-based prints should 
last for more than 2 years, especially in a drawer.

My point is that there must be other factors that we just don't 
understand that are affecting print longevity.  And until we DO 
understand those factors trying to predict what's going to last 35 
years, or 50 years or 100 years is pure hubris.

> In BW photography there is NO part of the process that's unknown or 
> out of our control.   The physics and chemistry of BW film, 
> developer and paper is all well-understood.  

Except, of course, temporarily, when the silver paper or pt/pd paper or TriX
formulation or whatever is changed without consulting us...

"...basically the same dye-based inks .."  is not the same as identical.  Anyway, if you don't trust the opinions of people that work hard on this issue, you might consider just staying with the wet darkroom, if that's what you're comfortable with.
 
Tom Baker

Peter Nelson <pnweb@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre" 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
> 
wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Aj" 
> > > The images look pretty good, although ive learned that 
> > > the ink on the 1280s is very unstable so I hope they 
> > > look as good in a couple of days. 
> > 
> > Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral BW prints for 
me 
> > on his 1280 using Epson's heavy Professional Matte paper as part 
of 
> > some experiments he was doing with new profiler he had bought. I 
> > kept them in a drawer. Today they are a nice rich shade of 
> > green. 
> 
> This fact has been known for several years. If you want permanence, 
> stay away from dye inksets.

No kidding but then how does that explain why the prints made on my 
870, which uses basically the same dye-based inks as the 1280, and 
which have been sitting out under fluorescents for the same amount of 
time look unchanged? And besides, even dye-based prints should 
last for more than 2 years, especially in a drawer.

My point is that there must be other factors that we just don't 
understand that are affecting print longevity. And until we DO 
understand those factors trying to predict what's going to last 35 
years, or 50 years or 100 years is pure hubris.







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> 
> "...basically the same dye-based inks .."  is not the
>  same as identical.  

In this case it is - the 1270/870 and 1280 use the same ink 
cartridges.

Peter,

>>>Two years ago a friend made some beautiful neutral 
>>>BW prints for me on his 1280...   I kept them in a drawer.  
>>>Today they are a nice rich shade of green...
> 
>> And I'll bet they were dye prints, not pigments.

>Of course, but the 870 prints ... sitting out under fluorescent 
>lights for same the period of timne look fine.   ...
> What this shows is that there are variables at work here that 
>we don't have any idea about.

My fiber-based silver prints that are in the worst shape are also those that
were in a drawer (file cabinet).  The yellowing of the paper formed a clear
pattern that showed it was gas diffusing in from the edges.  The cabinet in
my case was metal, and the silver prints were not touching any acidic paper.
However, there was cheap paper -- file folders -- in the same cabinet.

So, I'd guess the cause of the accelerated green shift was a gas attack.  If
the drawers are wood, I'd wonder about out-gassing from the wood itself.
(Recall that cedar chests that smell so good are actually putting out a gas
that may be toxic to moths.)  Also, as my experience shows, what else is in
the cabinet is also a potential source of trouble.

In general, it's the acids that attack paper and oxidizers that attack the
image-forming substance.  As with fading, the pigments do much better than
dyes with respect to gas attacks.  It's the same surface area to mass ratio
or the particles or crystals that is usually cited as the reason for this
advantage.

I don't trust dye-formed prints at all and will not use them for any photo
that I want to last for any significant time.

>>You think you know the proprietary ingredients of the photo 
>>paper from the large manufacturers?  

>The basic chemistry of silver halide photography has been well 
>understood by everyone for a century. 

Well, it wasn't known enough to stop people from using toners that didn't
preserve the images the way they were thought to.  

In general, I'd say humanity's knowledge of and experience with papers and
pigments are way older and more extensive than its silver halide knowledge &
experience.  The paper and pigment industries are also much larger than the
photo industry.  Wilhelm is hardly the only source of information.  For
example, pigments have standard ASTM lightfastness ratings.  There are
international standards for archival paper. 

Everything fades and is subject to gas attack.  If the silver-halide prints
had been subject to the same scrutiny as the inkjet print, they might not
have a very good reputation.  The main photographic disaster caused by
fading is the loss of a huge percentage of the early color prints -- the
dyes were very unstable even in the dark.  It is really only the dyes in the
inkjet world that have been the cause of the focus on fading.  If all
inkjets used pigments, I doubt we'd be talking much about image instability
at all.

The main new ingredient in the pigment inkjet world is the coating on the
paper, and I understand why some would not trust these.  They have not stood
the test of time.  It is for this reason that I spent a fair amount of time
to get the UT7 and 2200 to print well on un-coated Arches paper.  With the
UT7, the 2200, and Arches Hot Press, very smooth photographic prints with a
dmax of up to 1.56 are a reality.

However, I note that even Arches had some paper discoloration issues in the
not too distant past.  Additionally, the Epson UltraSmooth (probably the
same coating as Epson Scrapbook and PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press) and even
the Epson Premium Semigloss did better in my initial fade testing.
 
> ... It's a crap shoot.

Life is a crap shoot, but with the exercise of some good judgment it can be
a good bet.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

At 03:12 AM Friday 5/7/04, you wrote:
>I don't trust dye-formed prints at all and will not use them for any photo
>that I want to last for any significant time.

Isn't the new HP Premium Plus / Colourfast paper with the HP 59 cart an exception?

BTW, someone asked if anyone had compared the ink prices of the 2200 with the 7660/7690 - I'd also be interested to know that.

thanks,
Richard 
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "Men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all 
   the other alternatives. "
   --Abba Eban (1915-)

Richard Smallfield wrote:

>At 03:12 AM Friday 5/7/04, you wrote:
>  
>
>>I don't trust dye-formed prints at all and will not use them for any photo
>>that I want to last for any significant time.
>>    
>>
>
>Isn't the new HP Premium Plus / Colourfast paper with the HP 59 cart an exception?
>
>BTW, someone asked if anyone had compared the ink prices of the 2200 with the 7660/7690 - I'd also be interested to know that.
>  
>
I get about 8-12 prints from one $24 #59 cartridge on the 7660.  That's 
about $2-$3 per 8x10.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
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and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
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"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Richard,


>>I don't trust dye-formed prints at all and will not use them for any photo
>>that I want to last for any significant time.

>Isn't the new HP Premium Plus / Colourfast paper with the HP 59 cart an
>exception?

No.

I applaud the companies working on extending the dye technology.  The
swellable coatings with HP dye (which I believe is a fairly standard dye)
have turned in much better fade tests than many of the earlier papers.  But,
they are not in the same fade class as the predominantly carbon pigment B&W
inksets or printing methods.

Even if the dye systems turned in a fade result equal to the "carbon on
cotton," I would not have the same confidence in the artificial papers as I
have in the cotton-based papers.

I also have more confidence in the post-printing sprays to seal the pigments
than I do in the "swellable" coatings.  The classic B-72 acrylic formula,
for example, has been used by conservators for years.  (See, Ross Merrill,
Chief of Conservation, National Gallery of Art, Washington D.C. (1997),
"This product will remain unchanged for 400 years ..."  
http://www.bmi.net/knapp/iapsmerrill.html )

So, I recommend the latest pigment inksets for longevity.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul,

For fine art (cotton) paper, do you use either the Krylon Acrylic Varnish B72 or 
Grumbacher B77 recommended by Merrill.  It mentioned that the Grumbacher 
B77 will not saturate the surface (referring to pastels) the way the Krylon B72 
tends to do.  What does this mean and how does the difference affect the 
way the print looks?  Do prints sprayed with these products differ much in 
appearance or toughness from those treated with Premier Art Print Shield, 
which is virtually invisible on photographic prints made with pigment inks on 
fine art paper.  Thanks,

Tom Andrews
http://www.wildlandart.com


> I also have more confidence in the post-printing sprays to seal the 
pigments

> than I do in the "swellable" coatings.  The classic B-72 acrylic formula,
> for example, has been used by conservators for years.  (See, Ross Merrill,
> Chief of Conservation, National Gallery of Art, Washington D.C. (1997),
> "This product will remain unchanged for 400 years ..."  
> http://www.bmi.net/knapp/iapsmerrill.html )
 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Tom,

>For fine art (cotton) paper, do you use either the 
>Krylon Acrylic Varnish B72

I don't think Krylon makes this any more.  Lascaux Fixativ may be the only
current pure B72 formula, and I've had good luck with in on matte papers.

>or Grumbacher B77 recommended by Merrill.

I have used this and been happy with the results -- on matte paper.  On
glossy paper I did not get good evenness, but with practice it should be
fine.

>Do prints sprayed with these products differ much in 
>appearance or toughness from those treated with Premier Art Print Shield, 
>which is virtually invisible on photographic prints made with pigment 
>inks on fine art paper. 

They all look alike.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

_____________________________________


> I also have more confidence in the post-printing sprays to seal the 
pigments

> than I do in the "swellable" coatings.  The classic B-72 acrylic formula,
> for example, has been used by conservators for years.  (See, Ross Merrill,
> Chief of Conservation, National Gallery of Art, Washington D.C. (1997),
> "This product will remain unchanged for 400 years ..."  
> http://www.bmi.net/knapp/iapsmerrill.html )
 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com