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2004-05-09 by John Vitollo
Hi all, I've read descriptions of William Turner on a few vendor sites and some mention WT is smooth and some say it rough...it gets confusing! I even downloaded the PDFs from Hmule and it's not clear. Can anyone with first hand knowledge describe how WT compares to PhotoRag and likes and dislikes? I'm using QTR with an Epson 890 UT2 inks. Many Thanks, John V.
2004-05-09 by Tyler Boley
I've seen it described as smooth too, very misleading. It's probably the coarsest tooth I've seen on a coated inkjet paper. It's not whitened like PhotoRag so not as bright, but not nearly as warm as German Etching. Given all that, it's my favorite paper. Dmax like PhotoRag, without the card-like smooth surface and screaming white, it has a character that adds in a way I like. Looks beautiful with Steve's Xray floral images, particularly large, and I like it for straight large format landscapes. The surface does not take away from fine detail. If only that tooth were knocked down a bit, more like Somerset, it just might be perfect. Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@c...> wrote: > Hi all, > > I've read descriptions of William Turner on a few vendor sites and some mention WT is > smooth and some say it rough...it gets confusing! I even downloaded the PDFs from Hmule > and it's not clear. > > Can anyone with first hand knowledge describe how WT compares to PhotoRag and likes
> and dislikes? > > I'm using QTR with an Epson 890 UT2 inks. > > Many Thanks, > > John V.
2004-05-09 by John Vitollo
> If only that tooth were knocked down a bit, more like Somerset, it > just might be perfect. > Tyler Tyler, I'm not a big fan of Somerset Velvet - it the surface hard "coated" or "velvety" like Somerset Velvet? Thanks, John V
2004-05-09 by Tyler Boley
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@c...> wrote: ... > I'm not a big fan of Somerset Velvet - it the surface hard "coated" or "velvety" like > Somerset Velvet? John, not exactly sure I know what you're asking. It is coated, as the other H papers. Somerset Velvet does have a softer feel, but Turner is definitely more textured and could be described as "harder" I suppose. Some people described it as having a sandpaper feel, I wouldn't go that far. More like a cold press watercolor paper I guess. I think you might have to actually see the stuff, if you like smooth, you won't like it. Tyler
2004-05-09 by James Irelan
Tyler, I'm curious as to what you think of Torchon. It was always my favorite paper, although its very figured surface, beautiful on its own and which disappears in colored areas, could be noticeable and therefore distracting in very light expanses such as a pale sky. The only reason I stopped using it and have been looking for a replacement ever since was its propensity to "flake", leaving white spots which are nearly impossible to spot. Brushing off the surface before printing does improve one's odds for avoiding "flaking" (I've never been convinced that something actually flakes off, because I've looked very carefully, and never found a loose flake), but still, it's disheartening to print a big print, especially, and find white spots. But I've always got the best reds with this paper. Also, what is your reaction to Entrada? Mine is that it looks very good with proper profiling, but it is more difficult to profile than other papers. And I've even seen some flaking with it- not as bad as Hana papers, but occasionally- which makes me suspect that the very dry conditions under which I print may be part of the equation. James
2004-05-10 by Tyler Boley
Flaking is the big problem with all of these papers. Torchon definitely, all the H papers. There were reports of strange longevity problems with Torchon, prints turning yellow, etc.. I was always sort of attracted to it, except for it's extreme brightness. Maybe some component added for that bright white added to the problems. So other than a few quick tests I haven't worked with it. But I think that large smooth rolling texture could be nice with large prints, maybe overwhelm small prints. Impressive blacks. The Entrada samples I tried were attractive, but I couldn't, again, get a competative Dmax on it with the Piezotone inks I use. I think it could be great with work that doesn't rely on a strong black. I'm afraid I don't know how humidity may impact the flacking but It's a real hassle. I recently made some prints for someone, the image had a lot of black and very dark grays everywhere. He wanted PhotoRag. If you brush it, you clearly see the brush strokes in large smooth dark areas. After lots of failed prints, I got some keepers by gently wiping the paper with a soft cloth so you couldn't see the wiping, than had to quickly spray the resulting prints with Print Guard. Spraying a lot of prints is definitely something I don't want to get into. Interestingly, harder wiping (which may more effectively reduce flacking) eliminated so much coating the Dmax went way down. Not good for the particular image. Maybe wiping Torchon would be a better solution. Hana claims to have changed the coating to fix flaking, but I've also heard there is so much of the old on shelves everywhere we may not see that for some time. That's just a rumor. Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Irelan <james@r...> wrote:
> Tyler, > > I'm curious as to what you think of Torchon. It was always my favorite > paper, although its very figured surface, beautiful on its own and > which disappears in colored areas, could be noticeable and therefore > distracting in very light expanses such as a pale sky. The only reason > I stopped using it and have been looking for a replacement ever since > was its propensity to "flake", leaving white spots which are nearly > impossible to spot. Brushing off the surface before printing does > improve one's odds for avoiding "flaking" (I've never been convinced > that something actually flakes off, because I've looked very carefully, > and never found a loose flake), but still, it's disheartening to print > a big print, especially, and find white spots. But I've always got the > best reds with this paper. Also, what is your reaction to Entrada? > Mine is that it looks very good with proper profiling, but it is more > difficult to profile than other papers. And I've even seen some > flaking with it- not as bad as Hana papers, but occasionally- which > makes me suspect that the very dry conditions under which I print may > be part of the equation. > > James
2004-05-10 by Jim Doyle
Hi Tyler, Just a quick note Hahnemuhle Is coming out in the next month withal New Paper One Of several To be released.. It will be called White Velvet 268gsm And Its Just Like Somerset velvet Just a little different But Boy its going to compete.. The Other New One's are going to be an OBA Free Photo Rag & A New Canvass If anybody has questions Please email or call me anytime.. Cheers Jim Doyle J.Doyle Enterprises L.L.C. 114 Old Orchard Rd. Cherry Hill, NJ 08003 856-424-8660 http://www.shadesofpaper.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 6:44 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: How does William Turner compare to PhotoRag?
I've seen it described as smooth too, very misleading. It's probably
the coarsest tooth I've seen on a coated inkjet paper. It's not
whitened like PhotoRag so not as bright, but not nearly as warm as
German Etching. Given all that, it's my favorite paper. Dmax like
PhotoRag, without the card-like smooth surface and screaming white, it
has a character that adds in a way I like. Looks beautiful with
Steve's Xray floral images, particularly large, and I like it for
straight large format landscapes. The surface does not take away from
fine detail.
If only that tooth were knocked down a bit, more like Somerset, it
just might be perfect.
Tyler
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo"
<jvlist@c...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've read descriptions of William Turner on a few vendor sites and
some mention WT is
> smooth and some say it rough...it gets confusing! I even downloaded
the PDFs from Hmule
> and it's not clear.
>
> Can anyone with first hand knowledge describe how WT compares to
PhotoRag and likes
> and dislikes?
>
> I'm using QTR with an Epson 890 UT2 inks.
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> John V.
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POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2004-05-10 by Jim Doyle
Oh What The Heck.. Email Me off list And I'll Send you a sample of William Turner 190 For Free.. Cheers Jim Doyle J.Doyle Enterprises L.L.C. 114 Old Orchard Rd. Cherry Hill, NJ 08003 856-424-8660 http://www.shadesofpaper.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@tylerboley.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 7:32 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: How does William Turner compare to PhotoRag?
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "John Vitollo"
<jvlist@c...> wrote:
...
> I'm not a big fan of Somerset Velvet - it the surface hard "coated"
or "velvety" like
> Somerset Velvet?
John, not exactly sure I know what you're asking. It is coated, as the
other H papers. Somerset Velvet does have a softer feel, but Turner is
definitely more textured and could be described as "harder" I suppose.
Some people described it as having a sandpaper feel, I wouldn't go
that far. More like a cold press watercolor paper I guess.
I think you might have to actually see the stuff, if you like smooth,
you won't like it.
Tyler
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.
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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2004-05-10 by James Irelan
> > The Entrada samples I tried were attractive, but I couldn't, again, > get a competative Dmax on it with the Piezotone inks I use. With my current 7600 failure problem, which still hasn't been resolved, I've gone back to my 1160s, one of which has Fotonics in it, which I had installed but had never used yet for anything serious. Because I have a project in the works where I'm waiting for the client to choose which photos they want, and will then will require keeper prints, I thought I better make the best of things, so I profiled the Fotonics on Entrada, and am getting just amazingly good prints. In fact, I spoke to Lyson last week, and asked them if they have a set of Fotonics for the 7600, and it turns out that they're just coming out with one. My thinking is that given the problem I've had with the Cave Paints, if I do replace the head etc on the 7600, what ink do I then use? Try again with the CavePaints? Lyson says they've not had the problem I've had, but I certainly have had it. Coincidence? The CavePaints? I can't know for sure. They are also coming out with a paper which they describe as having a surface similar to traditional fiber-based photo paper, the purpose of which is to improve the archival prospects to approx 100 years with the Fotonics. They say they are just waiting for the American sizes to be prepared. Sounds like an awfully attractive prospect, but of course we all know how some of these things pan out in reality. What I forgot to ask is if the paper is an RC paper. But Fontonics with even greater longevity would be hard to beat. Even now, they're probably 25-30 years, which would outlive me. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-05-10 by Tyler Boley
Jim, this is outstanding news! Exactly what I've been looking for for years, and I know others as well. OBA free PRag sounds like a great option as well. Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle" <jdoyle1713@c...> wrote: > Hi Tyler, > > Just a quick note Hahnemuhle Is coming out in the next month withal New > Paper One Of several To be released.. > > It will be called White Velvet 268gsm And Its Just Like Somerset velvet Just > a little different But Boy its going to compete.. > > The Other New One's are going to be an OBA Free Photo Rag & A New Canvass > > If anybody has questions Please email or call me anytime.. > > Cheers > Jim Doyle > > J.Doyle Enterprises L.L.C. > 114 Old Orchard Rd. > Cherry Hill, NJ 08003 > 856-424-8660 > http://www.shadesofpaper.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@t...] > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 6:44 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: How does William Turner compare to PhotoRag? > > > I've seen it described as smooth too, very misleading. It's probably > the coarsest tooth I've seen on a coated inkjet paper. It's not > whitened like PhotoRag so not as bright, but not nearly as warm as > German Etching. Given all that, it's my favorite paper. Dmax like > PhotoRag, without the card-like smooth surface and screaming white, it > has a character that adds in a way I like. Looks beautiful with > Steve's Xray floral images, particularly large, and I like it for > straight large format landscapes. The surface does not take away from > fine detail. > If only that tooth were knocked down a bit, more like Somerset, it > just might be perfect. > Tyler > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" > <jvlist@c...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've read descriptions of William Turner on a few vendor sites and > some mention WT is > > smooth and some say it rough...it gets confusing! I even downloaded > the PDFs from Hmule > > and it's not clear. > > > > Can anyone with first hand knowledge describe how WT compares to > PhotoRag and likes > > and dislikes? > > > > I'm using QTR with an Epson 890 UT2 inks. > > > > Many Thanks, > > > > John V. > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from > the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-05-10 by James Irelan
>> >> The Entrada samples I tried were attractive, but I couldn't, again, >> get a competative Dmax on it with the Piezotone inks I use. > > With my current 7600 failure problem, which still hasn't been > resolved,=20 > I've gone back to my 1160s, one of which has Fotonics in it, which I=20 > had installed but had never used yet for anything serious. Because > I=20 > have a project in the works where I'm waiting for the client to > choose=20 > which photos they want, and will then will require keeper prints, I=20 > thought I better make the best of things, so I profiled the Fotonics > on=20 > Entrada, and am getting just amazingly good prints. In fact, I > spoke=20 > to Lyson last week, and asked them if they have a set of Fotonics > for=20 > the 7600, and it turns out that they're just coming out with one. > My=20 > thinking is that given the problem I've had with the Cave Paints, if > I=20 > do replace the head etc on the 7600, what ink do I then use? Try > again=20 > with the CavePaints? Lyson says they've not had the problem I've > had,=20 > but I certainly have had it. Coincidence? The CavePaints? I can't=20 > know for sure. They are also coming out with a paper which they=20 > describe as having a surface similar to traditional fiber-based > photo=20 > paper, the purpose of which is to improve the archival prospects to=20 > approx 100 years with the Fotonics. They say they are just waiting > for=20 > the American sizes to be prepared. Sounds like an awfully > attractive=20 > prospect, but of course we all know how some of these things pan out > in=20 > reality. What I forgot to ask is if the paper is an RC paper. But=20 > Fontonics with even greater longevity would be hard to beat. Even > now,=20 > they're probably 25-30 years, which would outlive me. > > James >
2004-05-10 by Tyler Boley
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Irelan <james@r...> wrote: snip >...I profiled the Fotonics on > Entrada, and am getting just amazingly good prints. These paper Dmax issues are more on the minds of us B&W pigment folks. I like Fotonics, and even used Lysonic Es for some time. I have no doubt that you are getting good blacks and gamut with dyes on that paper. I suspect you won't reach that gamut, dmax, or transperency with Ultrachromes. Color pigments have always looked more opaque on paper to me, not a bad thing, but a different thing. I also think Fotonic prints will last a good long time. Jan has been reputably exhibiting them since long before this list even exhisted. AND, that new paper you mentioned that we are all waiting to see, will no doubt favor dye inks. I'd just hate to be the guy that recommends to you that you should be the bleeding edge guy yet again with 3rd parties in your 7600. C.D. may have a valuable opinion on that too, he has a lot of Fotonic experience. Tyler
2004-05-10 by John Vitollo
> I've gone back to my 1160s, one of which has Fotonics in it, which I > had installed but had never used yet for anything serious. > James I have Fotonics with an Epson 1200 - output on PhotoRag is awesome. No need for an Epson 2200...though maybe for UT7 Thanks for all the William Turner info - if it's good enough for Tyler it's worth a try! John
2004-05-10 by James Irelan
> I suspect you won't reach that gamut, dmax, or transperency > with Ultrachromes. When I switched from Archiva dye inks (which I found out weren't so archiva, after all) to Generations, I expected to have to make an adjustment, and accept that the inks would be all dull or something. To my amazement, I thought the Generations looked great. When I got the 7600 with the Ultrachromes, I expected to see some sort of major improvements on the Generations. I didn't. The inks looked ok, but I found myself comparing UC prints to my old Generations 1160 prints to see if they measured up. They were ok, especially when factoring in that much bigger prints could be made. But a vast improvement? No. An improvement at all? Couldn't prove it by me. > Color pigments have always looked more opaque on > paper to me, not a bad thing, but a different thing. Right. > I also think Fotonic prints will last a good long time. Jan has been > reputably exhibiting them since long before this list even exhisted. > AND, that new paper you mentioned that we are all waiting to see, will > no doubt favor dye inks. Yes, that's what it's intended for, according to Lyson. > I'd just hate to be the guy that recommends to you that you should be > the bleeding edge guy yet again with 3rd parties in your 7600. I understand, and wouldn't ask you for one. But I would think that dye inks would inherently have not the same clogging problems going through heads that pigments do. Am I wrong about that? James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-05-10 by Tyler Boley
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Irelan <james@r...> wrote: snip >...When I got the > 7600 with the Ultrachromes, I expected to see some sort of major > improvements on the Generations. I didn't. The inks looked ok, but I > found myself comparing UC prints to my old Generations 1160 prints to > see if they measured up. They were ok, especially when factoring in > that much bigger prints could be made. But a vast improvement? No. > An improvement at all? Couldn't prove it by me. Generations were always pretty darn good, I think the major advantage of the UCs were that they could print on the more photographic Epson surfaces. I've never heard UCs were substantially better in other ways. I've not been paying attention to the latest Generations, maybe they can print on those surfaces too. I think most people just stick with OEMs without asking these questions, and Epson is making it harder to play around. snip >...I would think that dye > inks would inherently have not the same clogging problems going through > heads that pigments do. Am I wrong about that? On the face of it I'd agree, also based on watching people's experiences over the years as a generalization. Sounds like you may be the one that tells us for sure <G>. One color still not functioning eh? Tyler
2004-05-10 by James Irelan
> > One color still not functioning eh? > Tyler > 'Fraid so. And an additional color has lost suction that was printing. I've deformed either the dampers and or the tubes, I guess. I will probably replace the dampers along with the head, and possibly the tubes as well, though I hope not, because that looks like a much bigger job still. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]