Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 5/14/2004 5:15:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
Black and White was a lot cheaper, but still several
> thousand dollars to "do it right." Claude

Oh nonsense.  I worked my way through high school and college on 
making beautiful BW prints in my basement darkroom for a few hundred 
dollars worth of used darkroom gear.  For black and white printing 
the ONLY critical piece of equipment is the enlarger lens - Almost 
everything else can be scrounged or heavily used and it will still 
make great prints. Peter
Back to apples and oranges again. Sure you can get beautiful prints that way, 
but If you were shooting MF or 4x5, and using regulated Horowitz/Zone VI cold 
lights, the best 6 element lenses,  and time/temperature compensated timers, 
ARCHIVAL Washers, etc IOW, the best of everything it WAS in the thousands. 
That was the only way to reach that standard of quality in prints. Double 
standards again..........case and point: 95% of B&W prints made by photogaphers out 
there did not have the proper wash.




> Now we have $500 computer darkroom/video analysers, $50 software 
to 
> manipulate images in 5 minutes that took a lifetime of skill to do 
(ever try a REAL 
> unsharp mask in the darkroom with a $2,500 pin registration 
system? It took all 
> day).

I know, and when you were a kid you had to walk 10 miles to school 
in raging blizzards up hill in both directions! Peter

Oh, come on, wasn't the point and you know it. Claude


The reason why we are so upset with Epson is because we understand 
enough about the metamerism problem to realize that it's not rocket 
science for them to fix it.  In fact after about 2 years they DID 
issue a special BW driver for the 2000 that used a different mix of 
ink colors for BW to address the same problem. 

Who is "we?" Epson doesn't care to make "perfect" B&W for the minority of 
"anal retentive" people out there (comaritively speaking). They are doing just 
fine ignoring that part of it and making acceptable/saleable black and white for 
the majority.


To use your example of darkroom printing, suppose you invested $2000 
in a BW darkroom but the prints you were getting were soft because 
your enlarger had a lousy lens.   Suppose a decent lens cost another 
$2000, but only $100 of that price was for improved optics - the 
other $1900 is because it has a golden lens barrel which you don't 
have any need for.  You'd resent paying that much money, too. Peter
Not if that's what it took to get the prints to the highest level and all 
other choices were in the same price range. You said yourself the lens was the 
most important, so why be a cheapskate about it if it's that important?
I paid $3,000 for a 180mm Sonnar (sharpest gun in the west) on my Hasselblad 
to do portraits and another $1,800 for a body without mirror cutoff in the 
finder. It was important, so price was secondary and I never got mad at Victor.

Claude


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, claudej1@a... 
wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/2004 5:15:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
> Black and White was a lot cheaper, but still several
> > thousand dollars to "do it right." Claude

> and point: 95% of B&W prints made by photogaphers out 
> there did not have the proper wash.

I'm not sure what your point is.  I still have the BW prints I made 
in college in the 1970's and they are still better than anytyhing 
I've seen from a 2200. 

The 2200 with the IP RIP produces BW prints that are "good enough" - 
a bit warm for my tastes and a bit coarse in some tonal ranges - 
but "good enough".   But it's still true that when I want a good BW 
from a digital file I take it to a pro lab and have a print done on 
photographic paper.   Your philosophy is that if you want quality 
you have to pay for it, and I agree which is why I use the pro lab 
on those shots.

Peter,
 What type of equipment does your pro lab use ? The Fuji Frontier
printers give, in my experience, BW which is neutral under ambient
daylight and moving toward brownish under tungsten and then flourescent.

                        Stuart
8-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, claudej1@a... 
> wrote:
> > In a message dated 5/14/2004 5:15:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
> > Black and White was a lot cheaper, but still several
> > > thousand dollars to "do it right." Claude
> 
> > and point: 95% of B&W prints made by photogaphers out 
> > there did not have the proper wash.
> 
> I'm not sure what your point is.  I still have the BW prints I made 
> in college in the 1970's and they are still better than anytyhing 
> I've seen from a 2200. 
> 
> The 2200 with the IP RIP produces BW prints that are "good enough" - 
> a bit warm for my tastes and a bit coarse in some tonal ranges - 
> but "good enough".   But it's still true that when I want a good BW 
> from a digital file I take it to a pro lab and have a print done on 
> photographic paper.   Your philosophy is that if you want quality 
> you have to pay for it, and I agree which is why I use the pro lab 
> on those shots.

You might want to try taking those same files to a 'pro' inkjet shop and having them printed.  You might get a better comparison of the best vs. the best.
 
Tom Baker

Peter Nelson <pnweb@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, claudej1@a... 
wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/2004 5:15:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
> Black and White was a lot cheaper, but still several
> > thousand dollars to "do it right." Claude

> and point: 95% of B&W prints made by photogaphers out 
> there did not have the proper wash.

I'm not sure what your point is. I still have the BW prints I made 
in college in the 1970's and they are still better than anytyhing 
I've seen from a 2200. 

The 2200 with the IP RIP produces BW prints that are "good enough" - 
a bit warm for my tastes and a bit coarse in some tonal ranges - 
but "good enough". But it's still true that when I want a good BW 
from a digital file I take it to a pro lab and have a print done on 
photographic paper. Your philosophy is that if you want quality 
you have to pay for it, and I agree which is why I use the pro lab 
on those shots.






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter: I think the $64 question is why you keep coming back to digital
b&w printing discussions to argue with people who are happy with their
prints. OK, you're not, just go back in the wet darkroom. 

Sorry to sound a bit hostile, but your history here is one of
perpetual negativism. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> 
> I'm not sure what your point is.  I still have the BW prints I made 
> in college in the 1970's and they are still better than anytyhing 
> I've seen from a 2200. 
> 
> The 2200 with the IP RIP produces BW prints that are "good enough" - 
> a bit warm for my tastes and a bit coarse in some tonal ranges - 
> but "good enough".   But it's still true that when I want a good BW 
> from a digital file I take it to a pro lab and have a print done on 
> photographic paper.   Your philosophy is that if you want quality 
> you have to pay for it, and I agree which is why I use the pro lab 
> on those shots.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911" 
<SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> Peter,
>  What type of equipment does your pro lab use ? The Fuji Frontier
> printers give, in my experience, BW which is neutral under ambient
> daylight and moving toward brownish under tungsten and then 
flourescent.

Do you find that to be true with ordinary BW photographic prints?   
I've never noticed BW prints on actual photo paper to exhibit 
metamerism.

I'm not sure what brand my local lab uses except that it's made by a 
German company and it prints digital onto photographic paper.   I'll 
ask them next time I go there.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Michaels" 
<bob@b...> wrote:
> Peter: I think the $64 question is why you keep coming back to 
digital
> b&w printing discussions to argue with people who are happy with 
their
> prints. OK, you're not, just go back in the wet darkroom. 

But if you've been following the discussion you can see that there 
are LOTS of people who are unhappy with the current situation.   I'm 
just more articulate and persistent than most of them  8-)

I'm not the one that coined the phrased "science fair" approach 
(although I think it's quite apt).   And I'm not the one who's 
theratening to cancel a contract with ColorBytes - although I don't 
blame them.    And I'M not even the one who started this thread after 
pointing out that they had a fading problem with the last set of 3rd-
party inks they tried.

I don't go back to a wet darkroom because 95% of my photography these 
days is digital.


> Sorry to sound a bit hostile, but your history here is one of
> perpetual negativism.

I think of it as "fair and balanced".

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee 
<j.vee@g...> wrote:
> I don¹t know if anyone is interested, but I still also print 
traditional
> Carbon, where one makes your own ³tissue² (watercolor pigment 
mixture in
> gelatin suspension) for printing.  I can say categorically that 
matamerism
> is certainly present.  J vee

What is "traditional" carbon?    Various kinds of carbon black 
(channel black, charcoal black, bone black, etc) have been in use 
for centuries,if not millenia.  The pigments used in the black inks 
in my collection of stone-plate lithographs make between 1895 and 
1915 (I think 100 years old qualifies as "traditional") are still 
perfectly black and exhibit no metamerism.  

Also note that many watercolor blacks are NOT carbon black - they 
are often aniline black.   You can't go by the name on the tube of 
paint - for instance, many "cadmium red"s don't actually contain 
cadmium anymore.

Can anyone cite any authoritative sources for what the black ink 
(either OEM or 3rd party) is ACTUALLY using for a pigment?   The 
Epson UC Matte Black seems awfully warm for a "traditional" carbon 
black, whatever that is.

I don¹t know if anyone is interested, but I still also print traditional
Carbon, where one makes your own ³tissue² (watercolor pigment mixture in
gelatin suspension) for printing.  I can say categorically that matamerism
is certainly present.  J vee

On 5/16/04 5:13 PM, "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@studio-nelson.com> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911"
> <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
>> > Peter,
>> >  What type of equipment does your pro lab use ? The Fuji Frontier
>> > printers give, in my experience, BW which is neutral under ambient
>> > daylight and moving toward brownish under tungsten and then
> flourescent.
> 
> Do you find that to be true with ordinary BW photographic prints?
> I've never noticed BW prints on actual photo paper to exhibit
> metamerism.
> 
> I'm not sure what brand my local lab uses except that it's made by a
> German company and it prints digital onto photographic paper.   I'll
> ask them next time I go there.
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In the context of photography, when someone refers tradition carbon process,
I think of either Carbon prints which began in the mid-1860's or Carbro
prints which began in 1899 but was modified by Thomas Manly in 1905 and
finally called "carbro" in 1919. Both are non-silver, gelatin based, pigment
printing processes. In both cases the name came from the use of carbon
pigments, which types or variations, I do not know.

Wendel

> Subject: [Digital BW] Re:Darkroom vs. Inkjet
> 
> What is "traditional" carbon?    Various kinds of carbon black
> (channel black, charcoal black, bone black, etc) have been in use
> for centuries,if not millenia.  The pigments used in the black inks
> in my collection of stone-plate lithographs make between 1895 and
> 1915 (I think 100 years old qualifies as "traditional") are still
> perfectly black and exhibit no metamerism.

Peter,
 I can tell you that my BW prints from the best online processor show
metamerism(probably due to a subtle color cast) as I have described.
While they are still better than all inkjets I have seen other than
the HP 7960, they are not like darkroom prints on BW paper.
Furthermore, I emailed online  of them before sending prints and they
all said that "because they printed on paper designed for color
prints, there could be color casts etc ".
If what you say is true, and prints of this type are neutral, then why
would anyone want to use an inkjet in the first place ? It would 
easier and cheaper to go the online print route.
My feeling, is that what we can't get is the look of tradional
darkroom prints on the best papers, and that is why people on this
forum keep experimenting. 

              Good Luck,
                       Stuart
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911" 
> <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> > Peter,
> >  What type of equipment does your pro lab use ? The Fuji Frontier
> > printers give, in my experience, BW which is neutral under ambient
> > daylight and moving toward brownish under tungsten and then 
> flourescent.
> 
> Do you find that to be true with ordinary BW photographic prints?   
> I've never noticed BW prints on actual photo paper to exhibit 
> metamerism.
> 
> I'm not sure what brand my local lab uses except that it's made by a 
> German company and it prints digital onto photographic paper.   I'll 
> ask them next time I go there.

The term ³traditional Carbon² printing has been discussed here before.  It
refers to a very specific process originating in the 1860¹s which is highly
archival.  Many references on the web to include my own site, and in
articles I have written.  A mixture of pigments (almost never Carbon for a
long time) is suspended in gelatin and poured over a temporary support.
After coating, then it is soaked ( or painted) in dichromate.  Actinic
radiation exposes it through a contact negative an ³tans/hardens² the
gelatin mix to a depth proportionate to the exposure it gets, resulting in a
thick layer for darker tones, etc.  This tanned gelatin layer is transferred
usually to watercolor paper or fixed out photo paper or whatever.  The
beauty of the monochrome carbon image depends not only this 3
dimensionality, but also on the interplay between light and the particular
MIX of pigments used (pthalo blue, Mars black , various reds  etc.)
Traditional monochrome (not B&W) prints were, and are, Jet Black, Deep
Black, Warm Black, Deep Brown, Chalk red, Green,  to name a few, but all
printed by the original Carbon method. Such prints have lasted well over 100
years.  Of course the pigment particle size is, I think, quite different
than we can put through a jet, and they are in a thick layer of gelatin
which has been ³cross linked² with a final formalin bath.

On 5/17/04 10:16 AM, "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@studio-nelson.com> wrote:

> 
> What is "traditional" carbon?    Various kinds of carbon black
> (channel black, charcoal black, bone black, etc) have been in use
> for centuries,if not millenia.  The pigments used in the black inks
> in my collection of stone-plate lithographs make between 1895 and
> 1915 (I think 100 years old qualifies as "traditional") are still
> perfectly black and exhibit no metamerism.
> 
> Also note that many watercolor blacks are NOT carbon black - they
> are often aniline black.   You can't go by the name on the tube of
> paint - for instance, many "cadmium red"s don't actually contain
> cadmium anymore.
> 
> Can anyone cite any authoritative sources for what the black ink
> (either OEM or 3rd party) is ACTUALLY using for a pigment?   The
> Epson UC Matte Black seems awfully warm for a "traditional" carbon
> black, whatever that is.
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Wendel White 
<wendel@b...> wrote:
> In the context of photography, when someone refers tradition carbon 
process,
> I think of either Carbon prints which began in the mid-1860's or 
Carbro
> prints which began in 1899 but was modified by Thomas Manly in 1905 
and
> finally called "carbro" in 1919. Both are non-silver, gelatin 
based, pigment
> printing processes. In both cases the name came from the use of 
carbon
> pigments, which types or variations, I do not know.

But J Vee said he was using watercolor pigment.   Watercolor pigments 
are not enherently photosensitive so I don't understand what your 
answer had to do with his comments.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee 
<j.vee@g...> wrote:
> The term ³traditional Carbon² printing has been discussed here 
before.  It
> refers to a very specific process originating in the 1860¹s which 
is highly
> archival.  Many references on the web to include my own site, and in
> articles I have written.  A mixture of pigments (almost never 
Carbon for a
> long time) is suspended in gelatin and poured over a temporary 
support.

So if it's almost never carbon, then what's "carbon" about this and 
what does it have to do with inkjet printing?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911" 
<SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> Peter,
>  I can tell you that my BW prints from the best online processor 
show
> metamerism(probably due to a subtle color cast) as I have described.
> While they are still better than all inkjets I have seen other than
> the HP 7960, they are not like darkroom prints on BW paper.

But what ARE they?

Are they an inkjet process or a photographic process?   I've never 
seen a photographic process that exhibited metamerism.

> Furthermore, I emailed online  of them before sending
> prints and they all said that "because they printed on
> paper designed for color prints, there could be color 
> casts etc ".

Sure but a color cast is not metamerism.   

Keep in mind that conventional BLACK AND WHITE silver emulsion 
darkroom prints have color casts.    Get a collection of black and 
white photographic prints and compare them and you'll see some are 
cool and some are warm, etc.   It depends on the paper, the 
developer, etc.

 
> If what you say is true, and prints of this type are 
> neutral, then why would anyone want to use an inkjet
> in the first place ? 

Because you can inkjet at home and control everything and get the 
results quickly.   When I send an image to a lab I send it with file 
containing a test wedge and a print of that test wedge so they know 
exactly how dense I want it. I often give them a reference print of 
my intended image done on my 2200 to indicate the density range I 
want on the final print.   Sometimes I still have to have it 
reprinted.  The whole process is expensive and a pain in the @$$.  
But it's what I have to do if I want a darkroom-type print.

> It would easier and cheaper to go the online print route.
> My feeling, is that what we can't get is the look of tradional
> darkroom prints on the best papers, and that is why people on this
> forum keep experimenting.

I like to experiment with my ART - poses, lighting, composition, 
design, etc.    I'm an engineer who specializes in image processing 
software for a living, so the last thing I want to spend my free time 
doing is more of the same!   To me the idea of doing science fair 
experiments just to make a print is a little bit like having to 
design and write a word-processing program in C++ just to write a 
novel or poetry.

Peter,

Your question was - "What is 'traditional' carbon?" I was giving you that
answer. The gelatin in which the pigments are suspended hardens where
exposed to light, therefore making it a light sensitive medium. The
unexposed areas are washed away and the result is an image. This is over
simplified but you can find detailed descriptions of the process online. I
was not trying to address whether they are the same pigment or whether the
carbon in 'Carbon' or 'Carbro' prints has any relationship to carbon inkjet.
As I said, I don't know.

Wendel

> But J Vee said he was using watercolor pigment.   Watercolor pigments
> are not enherently photosensitive so I don't understand what your
> answer had to do with his comments.

Wendel White wrote:

> Peter,
> 
> Your question was - "What is 'traditional' carbon?" I was giving you that
> answer. The gelatin in which the pigments are suspended hardens where
> exposed to light, therefore making it a light sensitive medium. The
> unexposed areas are washed away and the result is an image. This is over
> simplified but you can find detailed descriptions of the process online. I
> was not trying to address whether they are the same pigment or whether the
> carbon in 'Carbon' or 'Carbro' prints has any relationship to carbon inkjet.
> As I said, I don't know.
> 
> Wendel

At least the "Carbro" doesn't have to be a carbon! pigment 
process. Professional colour photography during the depression 
was dominated by Carbro. Directly made separations (3) with one 
shot, one mirror or two mirror cameras or when the scene allowed 
it 3 takes after another.  H.I. Williams of New York was famous 
for that kind of work at that time. No carbon used for coloring :-)

Ernst

Peter,
Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try WHCC . They give you
a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your monitor is properly
calibrated, there should be no problem. You will get the prints back
in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with very low prices that is
widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview forums and see that
most users are quite pleased.  I would be interested to see what you
feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it will certainly save you
quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide prints on the most stable
papers .

                   Stuart
                    
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911" 
> <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> > Peter,
> >  I can tell you that my BW prints from the best online processor 
> show
> > metamerism(probably due to a subtle color cast) as I have described.
> > While they are still better than all inkjets I have seen other than
> > the HP 7960, they are not like darkroom prints on BW paper.
> 
> But what ARE they?
> 
> Are they an inkjet process or a photographic process?   I've never 
> seen a photographic process that exhibited metamerism.
> 
> > Furthermore, I emailed online  of them before sending
> > prints and they all said that "because they printed on
> > paper designed for color prints, there could be color 
> > casts etc ".
> 
> Sure but a color cast is not metamerism.   
> 
> Keep in mind that conventional BLACK AND WHITE silver emulsion 
> darkroom prints have color casts.    Get a collection of black and 
> white photographic prints and compare them and you'll see some are 
> cool and some are warm, etc.   It depends on the paper, the 
> developer, etc.
> 
>  
> > If what you say is true, and prints of this type are 
> > neutral, then why would anyone want to use an inkjet
> > in the first place ? 
> 
> Because you can inkjet at home and control everything and get the 
> results quickly.   When I send an image to a lab I send it with file 
> containing a test wedge and a print of that test wedge so they know 
> exactly how dense I want it. I often give them a reference print of 
> my intended image done on my 2200 to indicate the density range I 
> want on the final print.   Sometimes I still have to have it 
> reprinted.  The whole process is expensive and a pain in the @$$.  
> But it's what I have to do if I want a darkroom-type print.
> 
> > It would easier and cheaper to go the online print route.
> > My feeling, is that what we can't get is the look of tradional
> > darkroom prints on the best papers, and that is why people on this
> > forum keep experimenting.
> 
> I like to experiment with my ART - poses, lighting, composition, 
> design, etc.    I'm an engineer who specializes in image processing 
> software for a living, so the last thing I want to spend my free time 
> doing is more of the same!   To me the idea of doing science fair 
> experiments just to make a print is a little bit like having to 
> design and write a word-processing program in C++ just to write a 
> novel or poetry.

I can attest that whcc is an excellent lab.  I have
seen quite a few 16x20's that were printed as black
and white (I don't know if they were desaturated RGB
files or greyscale files).  The work in question was
created on the medium .jpg setting on a nikon D1.  The
images were just stunning, sharp and artifact free. 
The images were dead neutral, and were printed on the
matte paper.

Don  


--- sl91911 <SL91911@...> wrote:
> Peter,
> Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try
> WHCC . They give you
> a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your monitor
> is properly
> calibrated, there should be no problem. You will get
> the prints back
> in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with very
> low prices that is
> widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview
> forums and see that
> most users are quite pleased.  I would be interested
> to see what you
> feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it will
> certainly save you
> quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide prints
> on the most stable
> papers .
> 
>                    Stuart



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/

Don,
  Thank you for the input. At 2$ for an 8x10 and $4-5 for an 11x14,
one has to really think about whcc for at least some of their BW work.

                               Stuart
  
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "D. Hill"
<hill14701@y...> wrote:

> I can attest that whcc is an excellent lab.  I have
> seen quite a few 16x20's that were printed as black
> and white (I don't know if they were desaturated RGB
> files or greyscale files).  The work in question was
> created on the medium .jpg setting on a nikon D1.  The
> images were just stunning, sharp and artifact free. 
> The images were dead neutral, and were printed on the
> matte paper.
> 
> Don  
> 
> 
> --- sl91911 <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> > Peter,
> > Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try
> > WHCC . They give you
> > a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your monitor
> > is properly
> > calibrated, there should be no problem. You will get
> > the prints back
> > in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with very
> > low prices that is
> > widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview
> > forums and see that
> > most users are quite pleased.  I would be interested
> > to see what you
> > feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it will
> > certainly save you
> > quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide prints
> > on the most stable
> > papers .
> > 
> >                    Stuart
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
> http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/

What is the full name of the lab? I would like to look into their possibilities. Could not locate WHCC on google.
Bob

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: D. Hill 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:Darkroom vs. Inkjet -Then Why inkjet ?


  I can attest that whcc is an excellent lab.  I have
  seen quite a few 16x20's that were printed as black
  and white (I don't know if they were desaturated RGB
  files or greyscale files).  The work in question was
  created on the medium .jpg setting on a nikon D1.  The
  images were just stunning, sharp and artifact free. 
  The images were dead neutral, and were printed on the
  matte paper.

  Don  


  --- sl91911 <SL91911@...> wrote:
  > Peter,
  > Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try
  > WHCC . They give you
  > a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your monitor
  > is properly
  > calibrated, there should be no problem. You will get
  > the prints back
  > in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with very
  > low prices that is
  > widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview
  > forums and see that
  > most users are quite pleased.  I would be interested
  > to see what you
  > feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it will
  > certainly save you
  > quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide prints
  > on the most stable
  > papers .
  > 
  >                    Stuart



        
              
  __________________________________
  Do you Yahoo!?
  SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
  http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob,
The url is www.whcc.com . Phone # is 800-252-5234.
If the goal of those on this forum is to produce good BW prints from
digital, people on the forum should be relating their results with
this and other labs. Use of an inexpensive quick turn-around lab is a
legitimate path while we all await a real BW inkjet from a major
company . You can search the forums on dpreview to see the comments on
many of these online labs, but they invariably deal with color output.

                               Stuart
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Robert W.
Shearer" <rwshearer@c...> wrote:
> What is the full name of the lab? I would like to look into their
possibilities. Could not locate WHCC on google.
> Bob
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: D. Hill 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:33 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:Darkroom vs. Inkjet -Then Why inkjet ?
> 
> 
>   I can attest that whcc is an excellent lab.  I have
>   seen quite a few 16x20's that were printed as black
>   and white (I don't know if they were desaturated RGB
>   files or greyscale files).  The work in question was
>   created on the medium .jpg setting on a nikon D1.  The
>   images were just stunning, sharp and artifact free. 
>   The images were dead neutral, and were printed on the
>   matte paper.
> 
>   Don  
> 
> 
>   --- sl91911 <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
>   > Peter,
>   > Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try
>   > WHCC . They give you
>   > a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your monitor
>   > is properly
>   > calibrated, there should be no problem. You will get
>   > the prints back
>   > in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with very
>   > low prices that is
>   > widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview
>   > forums and see that
>   > most users are quite pleased.  I would be interested
>   > to see what you
>   > feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it will
>   > certainly save you
>   > quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide prints
>   > on the most stable
>   > papers .
>   > 
>   >                    Stuart
> 
> 
> 
>         
>               
>   __________________________________
>   Do you Yahoo!?
>   SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
>   http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may
be removed from the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
Files section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>       
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stuart,
Thanks so much for you help. I have contacted these people and am awaiting their reply.
Bob

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: sl91911 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:31 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re:Darkroom vs. Inkjet -Then Why inkjet ?


  Bob,
  The url is www.whcc.com . Phone # is 800-252-5234.
  If the goal of those on this forum is to produce good BW prints from
  digital, people on the forum should be relating their results with
  this and other labs. Use of an inexpensive quick turn-around lab is a
  legitimate path while we all await a real BW inkjet from a major
  company . You can search the forums on dpreview to see the comments on
  many of these online labs, but they invariably deal with color output.

                                 Stuart
  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Robert W.
  Shearer" <rwshearer@c...> wrote:
  > What is the full name of the lab? I would like to look into their
  possibilities. Could not locate WHCC on google.
  > Bob
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: D. Hill 
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  >   Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:33 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:Darkroom vs. Inkjet -Then Why inkjet ?
  > 
  > 
  >   I can attest that whcc is an excellent lab.  I have
  >   seen quite a few 16x20's that were printed as black
  >   and white (I don't know if they were desaturated RGB
  >   files or greyscale files).  The work in question was
  >   created on the medium .jpg setting on a nikon D1.  The
  >   images were just stunning, sharp and artifact free. 
  >   The images were dead neutral, and were printed on the
  >   matte paper.
  > 
  >   Don  
  > 
  > 
  >   --- sl91911 <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
  >   > Peter,
  >   > Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try
  >   > WHCC . They give you
  >   > a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your monitor
  >   > is properly
  >   > calibrated, there should be no problem. You will get
  >   > the prints back
  >   > in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with very
  >   > low prices that is
  >   > widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview
  >   > forums and see that
  >   > most users are quite pleased.  I would be interested
  >   > to see what you
  >   > feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it will
  >   > certainly save you
  >   > quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide prints
  >   > on the most stable
  >   > papers .
  >   > 
  >   >                    Stuart
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >         
  >               
  >   __________________________________
  >   Do you Yahoo!?
  >   SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
  >   http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
  > 
  > 
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
  resources as they are often being updated.
  > 
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > 
  >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
  wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
  visiting this same page.
  > 
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
  to keep them short.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
  the membership without notice.
  >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
  digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may
  be removed from the membership.
  >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
  and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
  Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
  Files section:
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
  > 
  >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
  PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
  AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
  LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
  CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
  DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
  LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
  YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
  RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
  THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
  YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
  PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
  MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  >               ADVERTISEMENT
  >              
  >        
  >        
  > 
  > 
  >
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >   Yahoo! Groups Links
  > 
  >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
  >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
  >       
  >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  >       
  >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
  Service. 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is their site:

http://www.whcc.com/

Don
--- "Robert W. Shearer" <rwshearer@...> wrote:
> What is the full name of the lab? I would like to
> look into their possibilities. Could not locate WHCC
> on google.
> Bob
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: D. Hill 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:33 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:Darkroom vs. Inkjet
> -Then Why inkjet ?
> 
> 
>   I can attest that whcc is an excellent lab.  I
> have
>   seen quite a few 16x20's that were printed as
> black
>   and white (I don't know if they were desaturated
> RGB
>   files or greyscale files).  The work in question
> was
>   created on the medium .jpg setting on a nikon D1. 
> The
>   images were just stunning, sharp and artifact
> free. 
>   The images were dead neutral, and were printed on
> the
>   matte paper.
> 
>   Don  
> 
> 
>   --- sl91911 <SL91911@...> wrote:
>   > Peter,
>   > Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try
>   > WHCC . They give you
>   > a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your
> monitor
>   > is properly
>   > calibrated, there should be no problem. You will
> get
>   > the prints back
>   > in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with
> very
>   > low prices that is
>   > widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview
>   > forums and see that
>   > most users are quite pleased.  I would be
> interested
>   > to see what you
>   > feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it
> will
>   > certainly save you
>   > quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide
> prints
>   > on the most stable
>   > papers .
>   > 
>   >                    Stuart
> 
> 
> 
>         
>               
>   __________________________________
>   Do you Yahoo!?
>   SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
>   http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
> Files, and other resources as they are often being
> updated.
> 
>  
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
> Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No
> personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
> argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group
> topic of digital B&W printing. Users who
> persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> from the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by
> the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
> actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines"
> in the Files section:
>  
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
> UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
> INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR
> LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
> INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
> TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>    
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>       
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
>    
>
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
> Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
> argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group
> topic of digital B&W printing. Users who
> persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the
> group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
> actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd
> in the Files section:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
> UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
> \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
> INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR
> LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
> \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
> INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
> TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> 
>     
>
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/

The way you send files to them is as follows.
You do whatever you want to get the BW in PS, sized at the print you
desire, at 300 dpi.
Then convert the file to sRGB if it is not already in sRGB
They have no profile for soft proofing, but it is really not necessary
with their workflow
It should be saved  as level 10 jpg
You then work with them on 5 test prints which are free
Basically, if your monitor is calibrated, yhese should come out OK
If there are issues, they will work with you
The test prints are on a luster surface, but you can get Fuji High
Gloss when you actually send in prints for production after the test
phase.
 Hope this helps, but please post your results !

                 Stuart

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "D. Hill"
<hill14701@y...> wrote:
> Here is their site:
> 
> http://www.whcc.com/
> 
> Don
> --- "Robert W. Shearer" <rwshearer@c...> wrote:
> > What is the full name of the lab? I would like to
> > look into their possibilities. Could not locate WHCC
> > on google.
> > Bob
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: D. Hill 
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> >   Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:33 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:Darkroom vs. Inkjet
> > -Then Why inkjet ?
> > 
> > 
> >   I can attest that whcc is an excellent lab.  I
> > have
> >   seen quite a few 16x20's that were printed as
> > black
> >   and white (I don't know if they were desaturated
> > RGB
> >   files or greyscale files).  The work in question
> > was
> >   created on the medium .jpg setting on a nikon D1. 
> > The
> >   images were just stunning, sharp and artifact
> > free. 
> >   The images were dead neutral, and were printed on
> > the
> >   matte paper.
> > 
> >   Don  
> > 
> > 
> >   --- sl91911 <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> >   > Peter,
> >   > Thank you for the reply. I would suggest you try
> >   > WHCC . They give you
> >   > a free testing phase with 5 prints. If your
> > monitor
> >   > is properly
> >   > calibrated, there should be no problem. You will
> > get
> >   > the prints back
> >   > in 48 hrs, no shipping fee. This is a lab with
> > very
> >   > low prices that is
> >   > widely used by pros.You can check the dpreview
> >   > forums and see that
> >   > most users are quite pleased.  I would be
> > interested
> >   > to see what you
> >   > feel about the BW. If you like the prints, it
> > will
> >   > certainly save you
> >   > quite a bit of angst. They are silver halide
> > prints
> >   > on the most stable
> >   > papers .
> >   > 
> >   >                    Stuart
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >         
> >               
> >   __________________________________
> >   Do you Yahoo!?
> >   SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
> >   http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
> > 
> > 
> >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
> > Files, and other resources as they are often being
> > updated.
> > 
> >  
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> > digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
> > Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> > 
> >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> > earlier messages to keep them short.
> >   - Good manners are required at all time. No
> > personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
> > argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group
> > topic of digital B&W printing. Users who
> > persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> > from the membership.
> >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by
> > the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
> > actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines"
> > in the Files section:
> >  
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
> > UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
> > INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR
> > LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
> > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> > HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
> > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> > GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
> > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
> > TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> >               ADVERTISEMENT
> >              
> >        
> >        
> > 
> > 
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >    
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> >       
> >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> > email to:
> >    
> >
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >       
> >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > and other resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> > digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
> > Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> > earlier messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> > attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
> > argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group
> > topic of digital B&W printing. Users who
> > persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> > from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the
> > group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
> > actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines"
> > in the Files section:
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
> > UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
> > INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR
> > LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
> > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> > HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
> > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> > GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
> > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
> > TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> > 
> >     
> >
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> >  
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
> http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911" 
<SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> The way you send files to them is as follows.
> You do whatever you want to get the BW in PS, sized at the print 
you
> desire, at 300 dpi.
> Then convert the file to sRGB if it is not already in sRGB
> They have no profile for soft proofing, but it is really not 
necessary
> with their workflow
> It should be saved  as level 10 jpg

Do you HAVE to use JPEG?   I never do anything with JPEG except web 
images.   They don't accept TIFF?

They Don't accept anything but JPEG. Go to their WWW Site.. they have a  
good FAQ.


-Jeff

On Wednesday, May 19, 2004, at 04:42 PM, Peter Nelson wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911"
> <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
>> The way you send files to them is as follows.
>> You do whatever you want to get the BW in PS, sized at the print
> you
>> desire, at 300 dpi.
>> Then convert the file to sRGB if it is not already in sRGB
>> They have no profile for soft proofing, but it is really not
> necessary
>> with their workflow
>> It should be saved  as level 10 jpg
>
> Do you HAVE to use JPEG?   I never do anything with JPEG except web
> images.   They don't accept TIFF?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> ---------------------~-->
> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ~->
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from  
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER”  
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF  
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER  
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Jeff,
  The jpeg is no problem if you do your image manipulation on a tiff
in PS. The jpeg is the last step before sending it to whcc.  Used in
this fashion, it is simply a means of compresson for efficient
internet transmission. If you compare it to printing from a tiff, you
will be hard pressed to tell a difference and there are many postings
to this effect. That said,  if you manipulate the image, save to jpeg,
and do this repeatedly, you will definitely produce artifacts. 

                    Stuart

  
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Magidson
<jef.jef@v...> wrote:
> They Don't accept anything but JPEG. Go to their WWW Site.. they
have a  
> good FAQ.
> 
> 
> -Jeff
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, May 19, 2004, at 04:42 PM, Peter Nelson wrote:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sl91911"
> > <SL91911@Y...> wrote:
> >> The way you send files to them is as follows.
> >> You do whatever you want to get the BW in PS, sized at the print
> > you
> >> desire, at 300 dpi.
> >> Then convert the file to sRGB if it is not already in sRGB
> >> They have no profile for soft proofing, but it is really not
> > necessary
> >> with their workflow
> >> It should be saved  as level 10 jpg
> >
> > Do you HAVE to use JPEG?   I never do anything with JPEG except web
> > images.   They don't accept TIFF?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> > ~->
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to  
> > keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
from  
> > the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the  
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE
"OWNER"  
> > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT  

> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,  
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF  
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER  
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >