Digital BW, The Print

I received a set of sample prints from Lyson (GB) that were made using  
an Epson 2100 and Lyson's QuadBlack Toneable inkset.  The prints I have  
included several matte papers (smooth and textured fine art in two  
weights) and one high gloss RC paper.  I had requested a print on the  
new Darkroom Gloss, but they said in a note that I received with the  
samples that Darkroom Gloss is not recommended for use with this inkset  
in the 2100/2200 printers "because of media weight".  On the plus side,  
the Quadblack Toneable prints had very high dmax and the glossy print  
had no bronzing.  Additionally, the QuadBlack Toneable prints appear to  
have good "depth" and luminance.  Unfortunately, all of these prints  
exhibited severe metamerism, shifting from strong purple/magenta under  
incandescent lighting to slightly greenish in daylight - much more  
pronounced than the metamerism exhibited by the Epson Ultrachromes.   
The 2100/2200 inkset appears to consist of 3 neutral, 2 warm, and 2  
cool inks.  Toning is controlled in Photoshop via the use of channel  
mixer adjustment layers and a softproof icc profile (see user guide  
pdf).
http://www.lyson.com/Technical%20Support/Quad%20Black%20Toneable/ 
QBT_UserGuide.pdf
Based on earlier comments, I understand that there may be a different  
inkset or better behavior with this one on Darkroom Gloss when used  
with a RIP so I look forward to hearing more about these developments.

I too got sample prints using their own image which was supposedly 
supposed to show the range of tones. I didn't see that any of the 
images actually appeared "neutral" in terms of greyscale - the warm 
prints were quite a strong sepia tone and on that particular image, 
shifted to what in my view was an unpleasant tone under normal 
tungsten lighting.

I have not seen any further news on what was called the "daylight 
darkroom solution" collaboration with Bowhaus - hopefully this may be 
a better formulation.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
> I received a set of sample prints from Lyson (GB) that were made 
using  
> an Epson 2100 and Lyson's QuadBlack Toneable inkset.  The prints I 
have

Carl,

I have been using some of the same Lyson inks in a 7000 for some time. 
I tried blending the neutral and the warm (but not the cool)
on various Lyson papers, including the Darkroom Gloss. 
That paper is absolutely stunning in its ability to hold a good
black. Its surface is also by far the closest to a real darkroom 
air-dried fiber paper I have ever seen in digital bw.

Metamerism remains an issue, but with a careful blend you can get a decent
print that shifts within an acceptable range. I have shown the results
to many people to get a sense of their response. Some rejected it outright, some
had no problem with it under daylight. You can blend for a given light source
to get decent results, but you can't have one blend for all lights. 

I looked at the spectral distribution and there was a significant spike at the red end
and another bump at the blue/purple end with a dip in the yellow/green area. 
This accounts for these effects, but this inkset offers no way to smooth out
the bumps when you only blend warm and neutral.

It may be that the solution (currently considered) is to use CMY inks from the
Lysonic set and the grays from the neutral quads to achieve a better color.
To this end Lyson will also be selling their own version of IJC/OPM with 
related profiles. See the Bowhaus release today:
http://www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol/

The Darkroom Gloss paper is such an amazing paper that I think it's worth
ironing out these problems. And, frankly, those who like black-only prints
may have a field day with this paper. It won't take Ultrachromes, so it will
have to be one of the Lyson blacks. But the black can get to be so
heavy that  I had to dial back the dmax when I was profiling it with IJC.
It would exceed 3.0...   and I had to cut it down to 2.4 - 2.7. I don't know
anything else in the market that will do that.
The 4000 with the much finer dither may be just the ticket for this.

Keep in mind that prints made on that paper are not water-resistant,
but on the plus side, the paper coating is of the swellable polymer kind
that protects the dyes better. I have no longevity data on this yet. Lyson
dyes have had a solid reputation for stability and were the ones used
in the original Iris bw prints (aka giclee). Don't know how they fare next
to the current champs (PT, UC, UT). 


Antonis





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

> I received a set of sample prints from Lyson (GB) that were made using  
> an Epson 2100 and Lyson's QuadBlack Toneable inkset. 

>.........snip..........>


> Based on earlier comments, I understand that there may be a different  
> inkset or better behavior with this one on Darkroom Gloss when used  
> with a RIP so I look forward to hearing more about these developments.

Antonis,

Thanks for the update.  Can I assume from your comments that the 
"QuadBlack Toneable" inkset Lyson is currently selling for the 
2100/2200 is only for use with the Epson driver and that they do not 
yet have a final inkset that will be marketed with IJC/OPM?  The 
neutrals + CMY for toning make sense if the tones can be controlled 
well enough to yield uniform tonality across the gray scale.  
Alternatively, a couple of pre-mixed quad inksets might be easier to 
handle and blend.

Carl

On Monday, July 5, 2004, at 02:20  PM, Antonis wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I have been using some of the same Lyson inks in a 7000 for some time.
> I tried blending the neutral and the warm (but not the cool)
> on various Lyson papers, including the Darkroom Gloss.
> That paper is absolutely stunning in its ability to hold a good
> black. Its surface is also by far the closest to a real darkroom
> air-dried fiber paper I have ever seen in digital bw.
>
> Metamerism remains an issue, but with a careful blend you can get a 
> decent
> print that shifts within an acceptable range. I have shown the results
> to many people to get a sense of their response. Some rejected it 
> outright, some
> had no problem with it under daylight. You can blend for a given light 
> source
> to get decent results, but you can't have one blend for all lights.
>
> I looked at the spectral distribution and there was a significant 
> spike at the red end
> and another bump at the blue/purple end with a dip in the yellow/green 
> area.
> This accounts for these effects, but this inkset offers no way to 
> smooth out
> the bumps when you only blend warm and neutral.
>
> It may be that the solution (currently considered) is to use CMY inks 
> from the
> Lysonic set and the grays from the neutral quads to achieve a better 
> color.
> To this end Lyson will also be selling their own version of IJC/OPM 
> with
> related profiles. See the Bowhaus release today:
> http://www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol/
>
> The Darkroom Gloss paper is such an amazing paper that I think it's 
> worth
> ironing out these problems. And, frankly, those who like black-only 
> prints
> may have a field day with this paper. It won't take Ultrachromes, so 
> it will
> have to be one of the Lyson blacks. But the black can get to be so
> heavy that  I had to dial back the dmax when I was profiling it with 
> IJC.
> It would exceed 3.0...   and I had to cut it down to 2.4 - 2.7. I 
> don't know
> anything else in the market that will do that.
> The 4000 with the much finer dither may be just the ticket for this.
>
> Keep in mind that prints made on that paper are not water-resistant,
> but on the plus side, the paper coating is of the swellable polymer 
> kind
> that protects the dyes better. I have no longevity data on this yet. 
> Lyson
> dyes have had a solid reputation for stability and were the ones used
> in the original Iris bw prints (aka giclee). Don't know how they fare 
> next
> to the current champs (PT, UC, UT).
>
>
> Antonis

> Can I assume from your comments that the 
> "QuadBlack Toneable" inkset Lyson is currently selling for the 
> 2100/2200 is only for use with the Epson driver and that they do not 
> yet have a final inkset that will be marketed with IJC/OPM?

Carl,

yes, that's correct. The product is in the final beta stages.  


> The 
> neutrals + CMY for toning make sense if the tones can be controlled 
> well enough to yield uniform tonality across the gray scale.  
> Alternatively, a couple of pre-mixed quad inksets might be easier to 
> handle and blend.

True, but this is an inkset that promises to do what a stock 2200 does
with the addition of an extra gray or two - depending on your printer.
Considering that we've already used IJC to make UC prints succesfully using the
CMY inks as toners, I don't see why not do the same with the Lysons.
The only drawback might be that older machines (pre-2200) may put
down too big a dot for the highlights without the benefit of the
light cyan/magenta (or premixed light toner). But that remains to be tested.

For now, I see this solution as the only ticket to the highest possible dmax
with absolutely no bronzing on the Darkroom Gloss. Plus, of course, it
will also cover all the matte papers with a full range of hues. 

Antonis

> Keep in mind that prints made on that paper are not water-resistant,
> but on the plus side, the paper coating is of the swellable polymer kind
> that protects the dyes better. I have no longevity data on this yet. Lyson
> dyes have had a solid reputation for stability and were the ones used
> in the original Iris bw prints (aka giclee). Don't know how they fare next
> to the current champs (PT, UC, UT). 

Antonis,

Lyson lost much of their Iris color print reputation when the 
same inks were used in Epsons and tested by Wilhelm. Whatever 
they tell you, check your prints in some fade proofs against 
similar prints made with UT quad sets.

Ernst

Any idea whether the formulation to go with IJC/OPM is likely to lead 
to less metamerism than the toneable version. I did get a sample 
print from Lyson but was put off by the colour shift

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> > Can I assume from your comments that the 
> > "QuadBlack Toneable" inkset Lyson is currently selling for the 
> > 2100/2200 is only for use with the Epson driver and that they do 
not 
> > yet have a final inkset that will be marketed with IJC/OPM?
> 
> Carl,
> 
> yes, that's correct. The product is in the final beta stages.  
> 
> 
> > The 
> > neutrals + CMY for toning make sense if the tones can be 
controlled 
> > well enough to yield uniform tonality across the gray scale.  
> > Alternatively, a couple of pre-mixed quad inksets might be easier 
to 
> > handle and blend.
> 
> True, but this is an inkset that promises to do what a stock 2200 
does
> with the addition of an extra gray or two - depending on your 
printer.
> Considering that we've already used IJC to make UC prints 
succesfully using the
> CMY inks as toners, I don't see why not do the same with the Lysons.
> The only drawback might be that older machines (pre-2200) may put
> down too big a dot for the highlights without the benefit of the
> light cyan/magenta (or premixed light toner). But that remains to 
be tested.
> 
> For now, I see this solution as the only ticket to the highest 
possible dmax
> with absolutely no bronzing on the Darkroom Gloss. Plus, of course, 
it

> will also cover all the matte papers with a full range of hues. 
> 
> Antonis