Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

ART and LIFE

ART and LIFE

2001-10-23 by ternahan

I would like to make a case for taking art "out of the box" as defined by
galleries and museums and schools.

Art can be practiced anywhere, anytime by anyone willing to make the extra
effort: to see, to listen, to feel, to give, to paint, to sing, to
photograph...

examples: 

I walk down the street and see a tiny flowering plant surviving between the
cracks in the sidewalk...the art of seeing

I take a photograph of this plant and post it on the web...the art of giving
the art of seeing

I see a child with a skinned knee sitting on the curb alone crying
quietly....I sit down and offer a bandaid and show the tiny brave flower in
the crack to the child...I show the child how to make a picture on the
sidewalk with a rock as a crayon... the art of giving, the art of caring,
the art of teaching, the art of listening and the art of seeing.

I turned to art as a refuge for myself for all the pain I absorbed from my
daily interactions with patients. Over many years of practice in many
settings, I hope I have begun to learn  the art of healing...and it isn't
antibiotics or surgeries or transplants. These things become the art of
healing only when given with a large dose of caring...the art of listening,
seeing, feeling, giving.

Living art makes the world a better place...so practice art: go see and take
pictures and share the images and yourself with us.

trish

Re: [Digital BW] ART and LIFE

2001-10-24 by Carolyn Frayn

Beautiful Trish, thank you for sharing that... you are an amazing woman.

Carolyn
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I would like to make a case for taking art "out of the box" as defined by
> galleries and museums and schools.
> 
> Art can be practiced anywhere, anytime by anyone willing to make the extra
> effort: to see, to listen, to feel, to give, to paint, to sing, to
> photograph...
> 
> examples: 
> 
> I walk down the street and see a tiny flowering plant surviving between the
> cracks in the sidewalk...the art of seeing
> 
> I take a photograph of this plant and post it on the web...the art of giving
> the art of seeing
> 
> I see a child with a skinned knee sitting on the curb alone crying
> quietly....I sit down and offer a bandaid and show the tiny brave flower in
> the crack to the child...I show the child how to make a picture on the
> sidewalk with a rock as a crayon... the art of giving, the art of caring,
> the art of teaching, the art of listening and the art of seeing.
> 
> I turned to art as a refuge for myself for all the pain I absorbed from my
> daily interactions with patients. Over many years of practice in many
> settings, I hope I have begun to learn  the art of healing...and it isn't
> antibiotics or surgeries or transplants. These things become the art of
> healing only when given with a large dose of caring...the art of listening,
> seeing, feeling, giving.
> 
> Living art makes the world a better place...so practice art: go see and take
> pictures and share the images and yourself with us.
> 
> trish
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-24 by mh@toomanyartists.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> I would like to make a case for taking art "out of the box" as defined by
> galleries and museums and schools.
> 
> Art can be practiced anywhere, anytime by anyone willing to make the extra
> effort: to see, to listen, to feel, to give, to paint, to sing, to
> photograph...
> 
> trish

	I don't think anyone here would argue with that, but we can't give 
everyone, everywhere, a spot in our museums.

two thoughts on the matter:
	 Museums themselves offer many programs for the public (kids 
especially) that take this perspective (art is everywhere, etc..) 

	Just because a gallery represents Damien Hirst (Gagosian) doesn't 
mean that their perspective of art is any narrower (or broader) than 
ours.

-mh

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-24 by ternahan

I agree, Mike. It is just a different perspective. By not limiting art to
museums and galleries, it becomes more accessible, perhaps less predicitable
and certainly more varied. Remember that in the not too distant past, art
was the major means of communicating (and sometimes the only means) history
and education...illuminated manuscripts, stained glass and bas relief
portrayals of allegories and religious text are one example.
Relative to Inkhaus, the printing press opened more than one door to the
masses. Now we use the internet in much the same way. It all comes down to
this: would you prefer that your work be viewed only by people attending
museums and galleries, or would like it to be seen by everyone? Art is worth
nothing, if it doesn't provoke communication between the viewer and the work
- at a minimum. If the art stimulates discussion and interaction among
viewers and between artists and viewers, so much the better.
Art is not always beautiful, but it is nothing if not seen.
 
On a lighter note remember the poster
"Do women have to be naked to get into the Metropolitan?"

t
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: mh@...
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:44:14 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...>
> wrote:
>> I would like to make a case for taking art "out of the box" as defined by
>> galleries and museums and schools.
>> 
>> Art can be practiced anywhere, anytime by anyone willing to make the extra
>> effort: to see, to listen, to feel, to give, to paint, to sing, to
>> photograph...
>> 
>> trish
> 
> I don't think anyone here would argue with that, but we can't give
> everyone, everywhere, a spot in our museums.
> 
> two thoughts on the matter:
> Museums themselves offer many programs for the public (kids
> especially) that take this perspective (art is everywhere, etc..)
> 
> Just because a gallery represents Damien Hirst (Gagosian) doesn't
> mean that their perspective of art is any narrower (or broader) than
> ours.
> 
> -mh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

> Art is worth
> nothing, if it doesn't provoke communication between the viewer and the work
> - at a minimum. If the art stimulates discussion and interaction among
> viewers and between artists and viewers, so much the better.
> Art is not always beautiful, but it is nothing if not seen.

So a person who "creates" work purely for their own enjoyment, for the love
of the act rather than the result, is not an artist, and their creations are
not art until they are seen?

I realize this is analogous to whether a tree makes as sound when it
falls....and the sound of one hand clapping....But art is a Zen thing. It is
a function of the mindset of the artist in the moment(s) of creation.

Art isn't in the object that we see, it's in the process that creates it.
The power it may or may not have over us is in our interpretation of it, but
art lives in creation. No viewer is required.

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by ternahan

Ah, but do you(we) not see our own work? Do you(we) not respond, react and
keep making art?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:07:48 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE
> 
> 
> 
>> Art is worth
>> nothing, if it doesn't provoke communication between the viewer and the work
>> - at a minimum. If the art stimulates discussion and interaction among
>> viewers and between artists and viewers, so much the better.
>> Art is not always beautiful, but it is nothing if not seen.
> 
> So a person who "creates" work purely for their own enjoyment, for the love
> of the act rather than the result, is not an artist, and their creations are
> not art until they are seen?
> 
> I realize this is analogous to whether a tree makes as sound when it
> falls....and the sound of one hand clapping....But art is a Zen thing. It is
> a function of the mindset of the artist in the moment(s) of creation.
> 
> Art isn't in the object that we see, it's in the process that creates it.
> The power it may or may not have over us is in our interpretation of it, but
> art lives in creation. No viewer is required.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Steadman Uhlich

I completely agree with Todd on this one.  

I feel the art is in the creation, not the exhibition, not the critique, not the write-up in a journal or gallery brochure or museum catalog.  The art is in that moment (sometimes a very protracted moment) when the artist is creating something.  

The result of that creative energy...what we see as "art" or a work of art is a sharing and extension of the concept of the artist.  The artist may or may not care at that point....whether we "get" the point.  

Refreshing Todd. 

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 3:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE




  > Art is worth
  > nothing, if it doesn't provoke communication between the viewer and the work
  > - at a minimum. If the art stimulates discussion and interaction among
  > viewers and between artists and viewers, so much the better.
  > Art is not always beautiful, but it is nothing if not seen.

  So a person who "creates" work purely for their own enjoyment, for the love
  of the act rather than the result, is not an artist, and their creations are
  not art until they are seen?

  I realize this is analogous to whether a tree makes as sound when it
  falls....and the sound of one hand clapping....But art is a Zen thing. It is
  a function of the mindset of the artist in the moment(s) of creation.

  Art isn't in the object that we see, it's in the process that creates it.
  The power it may or may not have over us is in our interpretation of it, but
  art lives in creation. No viewer is required.

  Todd


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

Are Beethoven's later works diminished because he never heard them
performed? 
Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Ah, but do you(we) not see our own work? Do you(we) not respond, react and
> keep making art?
  
>>> Art is worth
>>> nothing, if it doesn't provoke communication between the viewer and the work
>>> - at a minimum. If the art stimulates discussion and interaction among
>>> viewers and between artists and viewers, so much the better.
>>> Art is not always beautiful, but it is nothing if not seen.
>> 
>> So a person who "creates" work purely for their own enjoyment, for the love
>> of the act rather than the result, is not an artist, and their creations are
>> not art until they are seen?
>> 
>> I realize this is analogous to whether a tree makes as sound when it
>> falls....and the sound of one hand clapping....But art is a Zen thing. It is
>> a function of the mindset of the artist in the moment(s) of creation.
>> 
>> Art isn't in the object that we see, it's in the process that creates it.
>> The power it may or may not have over us is in our interpretation of it, but
>> art lives in creation. No viewer is required.
>> 
>> Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

I'd argue that criticism, or emotion "in a work of art lies in the
perception as such by an outside audience", but art is made manifest upon
creation.

An artist may produce work which in retrospect they deem a failure, and tear
it up and never show it, but they were making art at the time.

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> audience. 

> I'd agree with your rhetorical question - that an act of creation does not
> become a work of art until
> it is received by another. It doesn't mean that it isn't a creative work,
> could be excellent, but
> excellence in a work of art lies in the perception as such by an outside
> audience. 
> 
> Tim
> 
>> So a person who "creates" work purely for their own enjoyment, for the
>> love of the act rather than the result, is not an artist, and their
>> creations are not art until they are seen?
>> 
>> I realize this is analogous to whether a tree makes as sound when it
>> falls....and the sound of one hand clapping....But art is a Zen thing.
>> It is a function of the mindset of the artist in the moment(s) of
>> creation.
>> 
>> Art isn't in the object that we see, it's in the process that creates
>> it. The power it may or may not have over us is in our interpretation
>> of it, but art lives in creation. No viewer is required.
>> 
> 
> --
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Tim Spragens

I'd agree with your rhetorical question - that an act of creation does not become a work of art until 
it is received by another. It doesn't mean that it isn't a creative work, could be excellent, but 
excellence in a work of art lies in the perception as such by an outside audience. 

Tim

> So a person who "creates" work purely for their own enjoyment, for the
> love of the act rather than the result, is not an artist, and their
> creations are not art until they are seen?
> 
> I realize this is analogous to whether a tree makes as sound when it
> falls....and the sound of one hand clapping....But art is a Zen thing.
> It is a function of the mindset of the artist in the moment(s) of
> creation.
> 
> Art isn't in the object that we see, it's in the process that creates
> it. The power it may or may not have over us is in our interpretation
> of it, but art lives in creation. No viewer is required.
> 

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Steadman Uhlich

Extreeeemly good riposte there Todd!

Wish I was as articulate and quick with a line. 

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 4:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE




  > The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-gratification.

  The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.

  > The great beauty of art is
  > that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.

  The creation of works for our legacy is where the self-gratification comes
  into play. ;-)

  Todd


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

> The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-gratification.

The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.

> The great beauty of art is
> that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.

The creation of works for our legacy is where the self-gratification comes
into play. ;-)

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Tim Spragens

The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-gratification. The great beauty of art is 
that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.

Tim

> I completely agree with Todd on this one.  
> 
> I feel the art is in the creation, not the exhibition, not the
> critique, not the write-up in a journal or gallery brochure or museum
> catalog.  The art is in that moment (sometimes a very protracted
> moment) when the artist is creating something.  
> 
> The result of that creative energy...what we see as "art" or a work of
> art is a sharing and extension of the concept of the artist.  The
> artist may or may not care at that point....whether we "get" the
> point.  
> 
> 

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Tim Spragens

I'm sure he heard them in his mind's ear.

Tim

> Are Beethoven's later works diminished because he never heard them
> performed? Todd

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

Believe me, It ONLY gets me into trouble...

Besides, you seem to find yourself in as much trouble as I do, so you must
be doing something right. ;-)

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Extreeeemly good riposte there Todd!
> 
> Wish I was as articulate and quick with a line.
> 
> Steadman

> 
>> The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-gratification.
> 
> The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.
> 
>> The great beauty of art is
>> that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.
> 
> The creation of works for our legacy is where the self-gratification comes
> into play. ;-)
> 
> Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Steadman Uhlich

Todd, 

It comes from my old days as a competitive fencer (epee) and not being afraid to dive in after carefully disregarding (oxymoron) the risk.  Some risks are really not that risky.  Stating an opinion, especially an honest and sincere one is very little risk...in the right forum or company...especially when you have "right" on your side....of course there are no guarantees either.  (wINK) 

I just wish more people would contribute their thoughts on the forum. 

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE



  Believe me, It ONLY gets me into trouble...

  Besides, you seem to find yourself in as much trouble as I do, so you must
  be doing something right. ;-)

  Todd


  > Extreeeemly good riposte there Todd!
  > 
  > Wish I was as articulate and quick with a line.
  > 
  > Steadman

  > 
  >> The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-gratification.
  > 
  > The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.
  > 
  >> The great beauty of art is
  >> that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.
  > 
  > The creation of works for our legacy is where the self-gratification comes
  > into play. ;-)
  > 
  > Todd


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-26 by Todd Flashner

Touché, I agree with you 100%!
A little jousting is good sport!

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Todd, 
> 
> It comes from my old days as a competitive fencer (epee) and not being afraid
> to dive in after carefully disregarding (oxymoron) the risk.  Some risks are
> really not that risky.  Stating an opinion, especially an honest and sincere
> one is very little risk...in the right forum or company...especially when you
> have "right" on your side....of course there are no guarantees either.  (wINK)
> 
> I just wish more people would contribute their thoughts on the forum.
> 
> Steadman
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Todd Flashner
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, It ONLY gets me into trouble...
> 
> Besides, you seem to find yourself in as much trouble as I do, so you must
> be doing something right. ;-)
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
>> Extreeeemly good riposte there Todd!
>> 
>> Wish I was as articulate and quick with a line.
>> 
>> Steadman
> 
>> 
>>> The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-gratification.
>> 
>> The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.
>> 
>>> The great beauty of art is
>>> that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.
>> 
>> The creation of works for our legacy is where the self-gratification comes
>> into play. ;-)
>> 
>> Todd
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-27 by Tim Spragens

> > The act of creation without an audience is an act of
> > self-gratification.
> 
> The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.

An expression to whom, or what? To oneself (which is what I'm calling an act of self-
gratification)? An imposition of will over materials (which gets druidic)? In my mind, art requires 
communication, and communication is a transmission of something not previously realised, 
connections not made before. In this sense, it is possible to communicate with oneself, but I still 
find this a self absorption.

> > The great beauty of art is
> > that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.
> 
> The creation of works for our legacy is where the self-gratification
> comes into play. ;-)

That could be an act of self-gratification, but the creator would require the prescience to know 
that the works will both survive, and be seen.

aside: Is this discussion taking place on this list rather than the Fine Art Photo list because of a 
perceived larger audience here?--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-27 by Julian Thomas

Yeah, the FA list is th place for this IMO. Let me add a slight fine tuning
to your argument Tim, how about if the work is a potential engagement that
only becomes art when viewed. I agree that for me communication is a part of
art. Otherwise, it becomes a kind of personal therapy. IMO.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@...>
To: <digitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE


> > > The act of creation without an audience is an act of
> > > self-gratification.
> >
> > The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.
>
> An expression to whom, or what? To oneself (which is what I'm calling an
act of self-
> gratification)? An imposition of will over materials (which gets druidic)?
In my mind, art requires
> communication, and communication is a transmission of something not
previously realised,
> connections not made before. In this sense, it is possible to communicate
with oneself, but I still
> find this a self absorption.
>
> > > The great beauty of art is
> > > that it can impregnate long after the creator is dead.
> >
> > The creation of works for our legacy is where the self-gratification
> > comes into play. ;-)
>
> That could be an act of self-gratification, but the creator would require
the prescience to know
> that the works will both survive, and be seen.
>
> aside: Is this discussion taking place on this list rather than the Fine
Art Photo list because of a
> perceived larger audience here?--
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-27 by Bill Morse

I have resisted jumping into (piling onto?) this discussion because (for me)
it wasn't going anywhere.  Sweeping pronouncements about "this is valuable
and that isn't" don't get me very far- it all depends upon the context.

Communication with others requires clarity, clarity requires contemplation,
study, and experimentation.  Communication with oneself may indeed devolve
into navel gazing, or "personal therapy;"  on the other hand it is the
corner stone of successful communication with others.

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 

on 10/27/01 6:24 AM, Julian Thomas wrote:

... the work is a potential engagement that
only becomes art when viewed. I agree that for me communication is a part of
art. Otherwise, it becomes a kind of personal therapy. IMO.

Julian
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@...>
To: <digitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE


> > > The act of creation without an audience is an act of
> > > self-gratification.
> >
> > The act of creation without an audience is an act of self-expression.
>
> An expression to whom, or what? To oneself (which is what I'm calling an
act of self-
> gratification)? An imposition of will over materials (which gets druidic)?
In my mind, art requires
> communication, and communication is a transmission of something not
previously realised,
> connections not made before. In this sense, it is possible to communicate
with oneself, but I still
> find this a self absorption.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-27 by Tim Spragens

I'd agree it isn't going anywhere if it turns into a verbal fencing match, but thanks for your views. 

I jumped in not for a discussion of what is valuable, but because I'm interested in what one 
considers to be art and what art does. We don't have to agree on what it is as long as we know 
what someone else means when they use the term.

Tim

> I have resisted jumping into (piling onto?) this discussion because
> (for me) it wasn't going anywhere.  Sweeping pronouncements about
> "this is valuable and that isn't" don't get me very far- it all
> depends upon the context.
> 
> Communication with others requires clarity, clarity requires
> contemplation,
> study, and experimentation.  Communication with oneself may indeed
> devolve into navel gazing, or "personal therapy;"  on the other hand
> it is the corner stone of successful communication with others.
> 
> Bill Morse
> 

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-27 by Todd Flashner

This will probably be my last post on this too.

Ultimately art is and does many different things for different people. My
art, and my rational for doing it may just be very different than yours, yet
we may both make art. Forgive me if I made it seem like my rationale were
any better than yours, it's not, it's purely MY rationale.

Was it Duchamp who said, "it's art if I say it is", or something like that?
I'm in this camp, I like this mindset. It gives power to the artist, it
makes the artist the master of his creations, and I like that. Otherwise
your work is only art if a critic (public, friend, viewer) says it is?
Phooey!

That art can be a powerful communicator does not make the communication the
art. Communication requires two people, the creation of art requires one.
Communication comes after the fact, when the art is seen, but the art itself
exists upon creation. What of a person? Is a person who lives as a recluse
not a person until he communicates with another person? When did the
existence of things become predicated upon communication?

I don't put my very being into my work to so as to communicate with anyone,
though I might show it for that reason. I make it because I love to -
because I have a passion for it - because it satisfies me on a deep soulful
level. That's reason enough for me. Critics and viewers are purely optional,
and the interpretation of the work by a viewer says more about the viewer
than it does about the work.

IMHO.

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I'd agree it isn't going anywhere if it turns into a verbal fencing match, but
> thanks for your views.
> 
> I jumped in not for a discussion of what is valuable, but because I'm
> interested in what one
> considers to be art and what art does. We don't have to agree on what it is as
> long as we know 
> what someone else means when they use the term.
> 
> Tim
> 
>> I have resisted jumping into (piling onto?) this discussion because
>> (for me) it wasn't going anywhere.  Sweeping pronouncements about
>> "this is valuable and that isn't" don't get me very far- it all
>> depends upon the context.
>> 
>> Communication with others requires clarity, clarity requires
>> contemplation,
>> study, and experimentation.  Communication with oneself may indeed
>> devolve into navel gazing, or "personal therapy;"  on the other hand
>> it is the corner stone of successful communication with others.
>> 
>> Bill Morse
>> 
> 
> --
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-27 by ternahan

Todd,
I really think we don't disagree...we just choose different words. You say
it perfectly
> I don't put my very being into my work to so as to communicate with anyone,
> though I might show it for that reason. I make it because I love to -
> because I have a passion for it - because it satisfies me on a deep soulful
> level. That's reason enough for me
Art is creation
interpretation is just
interpretation.

Art is a passion
the world is inspiration
I make art to live.

t
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:52:49 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE
> 
> This will probably be my last post on this too.
> 
> Ultimately art is and does many different things for different people. My
> art, and my rational for doing it may just be very different than yours, yet
> we may both make art. Forgive me if I made it seem like my rationale were
> any better than yours, it's not, it's purely MY rationale.
> 
> Was it Duchamp who said, "it's art if I say it is", or something like that?
> I'm in this camp, I like this mindset. It gives power to the artist, it
> makes the artist the master of his creations, and I like that. Otherwise
> your work is only art if a critic (public, friend, viewer) says it is?
> Phooey!
> 
> That art can be a powerful communicator does not make the communication the
> art. Communication requires two people, the creation of art requires one.
> Communication comes after the fact, when the art is seen, but the art itself
> exists upon creation. What of a person? Is a person who lives as a recluse
> not a person until he communicates with another person? When did the
> existence of things become predicated upon communication?
> 
> I don't put my very being into my work to so as to communicate with anyone,
> though I might show it for that reason. I make it because I love to -
> because I have a passion for it - because it satisfies me on a deep soulful
> level. That's reason enough for me. Critics and viewers are purely optional,
> and the interpretation of the work by a viewer says more about the viewer
> than it does about the work.
> 
> IMHO.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
>> I'd agree it isn't going anywhere if it turns into a verbal fencing match,
>> but
>> thanks for your views.
>> 
>> I jumped in not for a discussion of what is valuable, but because I'm
>> interested in what one
>> considers to be art and what art does. We don't have to agree on what it is
>> as
>> long as we know 
>> what someone else means when they use the term.
>> 
>> Tim
>> 
>>> I have resisted jumping into (piling onto?) this discussion because
>>> (for me) it wasn't going anywhere.  Sweeping pronouncements about
>>> "this is valuable and that isn't" don't get me very far- it all
>>> depends upon the context.
>>> 
>>> Communication with others requires clarity, clarity requires
>>> contemplation,
>>> study, and experimentation.  Communication with oneself may indeed
>>> devolve into navel gazing, or "personal therapy;"  on the other hand
>>> it is the corner stone of successful communication with others.
>>> 
>>> Bill Morse
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Tim Spragens
>> http://www.borderless-photos.com
>> &
>> http://www.borderless-photos.de
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other
>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE

2001-10-27 by Steadman Uhlich

Todd, 
Well said.  Haven't heard the "phooey" word in a long time but I think it was well used by you. 

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 2:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ART and LIFE


  This will probably be my last post on this too.

  Ultimately art is and does many different things for different people. My
  art, and my rational for doing it may just be very different than yours, yet
  we may both make art. Forgive me if I made it seem like my rationale were
  any better than yours, it's not, it's purely MY rationale.

  Was it Duchamp who said, "it's art if I say it is", or something like that?
  I'm in this camp, I like this mindset. It gives power to the artist, it
  makes the artist the master of his creations, and I like that. Otherwise
  your work is only art if a critic (public, friend, viewer) says it is?
  Phooey!

  That art can be a powerful communicator does not make the communication the
  art. Communication requires two people, the creation of art requires one.
  Communication comes after the fact, when the art is seen, but the art itself
  exists upon creation. What of a person? Is a person who lives as a recluse
  not a person until he communicates with another person? When did the
  existence of things become predicated upon communication?

  I don't put my very being into my work to so as to communicate with anyone,
  though I might show it for that reason. I make it because I love to -
  because I have a passion for it - because it satisfies me on a deep soulful
  level. That's reason enough for me. Critics and viewers are purely optional,
  and the interpretation of the work by a viewer says more about the viewer
  than it does about the work.

  IMHO.

  Todd


  > I'd agree it isn't going anywhere if it turns into a verbal fencing match, but
  > thanks for your views.
  > 
  > I jumped in not for a discussion of what is valuable, but because I'm
  > interested in what one
  > considers to be art and what art does. We don't have to agree on what it is as
  > long as we know 
  > what someone else means when they use the term.
  > 
  > Tim
  > 
  >> I have resisted jumping into (piling onto?) this discussion because
  >> (for me) it wasn't going anywhere.  Sweeping pronouncements about
  >> "this is valuable and that isn't" don't get me very far- it all
  >> depends upon the context.
  >> 
  >> Communication with others requires clarity, clarity requires
  >> contemplation,
  >> study, and experimentation.  Communication with oneself may indeed
  >> devolve into navel gazing, or "personal therapy;"  on the other hand
  >> it is the corner stone of successful communication with others.
  >> 
  >> Bill Morse
  >> 
  > 
  > --
  > Tim Spragens
  > http://www.borderless-photos.com
  > &
  > http://www.borderless-photos.de
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
  > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  > 
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > 
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
  > them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  > resources on the homepage.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  > 
  > 


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.