Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 9/17/2004 9:12:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:

> Paul,
> 
> 3200K as a target for gray balance ?   I'm surprised. Where do we 
> ever find (or need) a display color temperature like that ?
> 
> The original drivers for the 10000 CF, 2000P and possibly the 
> 5500 were changed because the metamerism was a problem and the 
> droplet size allowed a longer black generation to suppress it. 
> The 9500 + 7500 never got that new driver as the droplet size 
> wouldn't allow it. The 10000CF that I have here shows that long 
> black generation and it isn't nice. The printers mentioned were 
> all to be used for the graphic market too so I guess 5500K as the 
> color temperature is much more likely.
> 
> Ernst
> 

I remember, at the PPA digital cafe in 2000, the Epson prints on display, 
made with the 9500 or 2000P with archival inks all had tungsten lights on them on 
the easel. Methinks Paul is correct. When I made canvas prints from the 9500 
OEM Archival inks, they looked best in Tungsten light with the canned profiles 
from Epson.

Claude


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, claudej1@a... 
wrote:
> I remember, at the PPA digital cafe in 2000, the Epson prints on 
display, 
> made with the 9500 or 2000P with archival inks 
> all had tungsten lights on them on the easel. 
> Methinks Paul is correct. When I made canvas prints 
> from the 9500 OEM Archival inks, they looked best 
> in Tungsten light with the canned profiles from Epson.

Peope are balancing their PRINTS for different light sources??!!

That sounds totally nuts.  What happens if you move the print to a 
different room, or if you have the print in a room where the light 
changes over the course of a day, such as one where there are 
outside windows so there is a mix of day and artificial light, or if 
someone changes a lightbulb?   If you sell uch a print to someone do 
you have to include lighting instructions?

There are many approaches to metamerism - RIPs, quadtones, black 
only, photo paper, etc, but this one sounds extreme.

claudej1@... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/17/2004 9:12:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
> 
> 
>>Paul,
>>
>>3200K as a target for gray balance ?   I'm surprised. Where do we 
>>ever find (or need) a display color temperature like that ?
>>
>>The original drivers for the 10000 CF, 2000P and possibly the 
>>5500 were changed because the metamerism was a problem and the 
>>droplet size allowed a longer black generation to suppress it. 
>>The 9500 + 7500 never got that new driver as the droplet size 
>>wouldn't allow it. The 10000CF that I have here shows that long 
>>black generation and it isn't nice. The printers mentioned were 
>>all to be used for the graphic market too so I guess 5500K as the 
>>color temperature is much more likely.
>>
>>Ernst
>>
> 
> 
> I remember, at the PPA digital cafe in 2000, the Epson prints on display, 
> made with the 9500 or 2000P with archival inks all had tungsten lights on them on 
> the easel. Methinks Paul is correct. When I made canvas prints from the 9500 
> OEM Archival inks, they looked best in Tungsten light with the canned profiles 
> from Epson.
> 
> Claude

Whether they looked best in tungsten light doesn't implicate that 
the ink settings + profiling was done at 3200 K.  It is more an 
indication that the system in total had a colour fidelity problem 
that was less significant at the warmer color temperature.
At the Drupa around that time when Epson introduced the Archival 
CF ink they had a poster with all kinds of fifties items in it, 
those fiftees colors were excellent with the CF gamut. It also 
made me aware that something fishy was going on. Even with the 
new drivers you didn't get the gamut that Generations 4 could 
deliver with the 9000.  I find it hard to believe that Epson ever 
tried to balance a colour ink set to 3200 K,  it doesn't cure the 
gamut problem and makes the metamerism in  practice worse.

Ernst

I remember a thread ages ago that centered around the yellow ink in
the 2200, saying that it was the most succeptable to met'.  I assumed
that prints made with the newest driver for the 2000p were so blue b/c
it eleminated much of the yellow ink for the same reason. Whatever the
reason, I much prefer prints from the older driver, even with heavy
color shift. Most people, as far as I know, only have incandescent
lighting in thier homes anyway, so this sounds like kinda kooky logic
on the part of epson. Of course I could be totally wrong.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> claudej1@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 9/17/2004 9:12:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
> > 
> > 
> >>Paul,
> >>
> >>3200K as a target for gray balance ?   I'm surprised. Where do we 
> >>ever find (or need) a display color temperature like that ?
> >>
> >>The original drivers for the 10000 CF, 2000P and possibly the 
> >>5500 were changed because the metamerism was a problem and the 
> >>droplet size allowed a longer black generation to suppress it. 
> >>The 9500 + 7500 never got that new driver as the droplet size 
> >>wouldn't allow it. The 10000CF that I have here shows that long 
> >>black generation and it isn't nice. The printers mentioned were 
> >>all to be used for the graphic market too so I guess 5500K as the 
> >>color temperature is much more likely.
> >>
> >>Ernst
> >>
> > 


> > 
> > I remember, at the PPA digital cafe in 2000, the Epson prints on
display, 
> > made with the 9500 or 2000P with archival inks all had tungsten
lights on them on 
> > the easel. Methinks Paul is correct. When I made canvas prints
from the 9500 
> > OEM Archival inks, they looked best in Tungsten light with the
canned profiles 

> > from Epson.
> > 
> > Claude
> 
> Whether they looked best in tungsten light doesn't implicate that 
> the ink settings + profiling was done at 3200 K.  It is more an 
> indication that the system in total had a colour fidelity problem 
> that was less significant at the warmer color temperature.
> At the Drupa around that time when Epson introduced the Archival 
> CF ink they had a poster with all kinds of fifties items in it, 
> those fiftees colors were excellent with the CF gamut. It also 
> made me aware that something fishy was going on. Even with the 
> new drivers you didn't get the gamut that Generations 4 could 
> deliver with the 9000.  I find it hard to believe that Epson ever 
> tried to balance a colour ink set to 3200 K,  it doesn't cure the 
> gamut problem and makes the metamerism in  practice worse.
> 
> Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "weareallsosmall"
<weareallsosmall@y...> wrote:
> I remember a thread ages ago that centered around the yellow ink in
> the 2200, saying that it was the most succeptable to met'.

It may be, but it seems to be an assumption without verification. The
reason a great deal, if not all, yellow is removed from the various UC
monochrome solutions out there (like IP) is that the light K ink now
running all the way up the scale is very warm, and no yellow ink is
required. Actually, to help metamerism as much color ink as possible
is removed with these solutions, but some CM (or light CM) is required
to neutralize the warm light K.
Someone toying with QTR and UCs could test and confirm if the presence
of yellow ink increases metamerism.

>  I assumed
> that prints made with the newest driver for the 2000p were so blue b/c
> it eleminated much of the yellow ink for the same reason. Whatever the
> reason, I much prefer prints from the older driver, even with heavy
> color shift. Most people, as far as I know, only have incandescent
> lighting in thier homes anyway, so this sounds like kinda kooky logic
> on the part of epson. Of course I could be totally wrong.

You may be giving Epson too much credit, I doubt much technical logic
went into whatever decisions led to these results.
I think Ernst is correct, that the inks just happened to perform best
under tungsten, then they responded to user complaints with the new
driver.
Users are so pesky, looking at their prints under various light sources.
Regarding profiling for different illumination color temperatures,
it's pretty common these days. Particularly for work for specific
installations or exhibits. Still given the lack of sophistication with
Epson's pre-Atkeson profiling, I doubt they were doing that.
Tyler

Tyler,

I agree that the "yellow ink causes metamerism" hypothesis is 
unverified and probably false, but it would be difficult to test.  
Metamerism is most apparent in neutral prints so if one created a 
series of neutral profiles with increasing amounts of yellow added it 
would be necessary to also add increasing amounts of cyan and magenta 
to maintain neutrality.  At some point the neutral grays would become 
metameric, but does the metamerism occur because of the additional 
yellow ink or the CM?  I suspect it is the latter but I'm not sure how 
to set up a test to confirm this.  Sepia prints I've made with profiles 
that use only K,LK, LM, and Y do not appear to be metameric but they 
are of course also far from neutral.

Carl

On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 08:31  PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "weareallsosmall"
> <weareallsosmall@y...> wrote:
>> I remember a thread ages ago that centered around the yellow ink in
>> the 2200, saying that it was the most succeptable to met'.
>
> It may be, but it seems to be an assumption without verification. The
> reason a great deal, if not all, yellow is removed from the various UC
> monochrome solutions out there (like IP) is that the light K ink now
> running all the way up the scale is very warm, and no yellow ink is
> required. Actually, to help metamerism as much color ink as possible
> is removed with these solutions, but some CM (or light CM) is required
> to neutralize the warm light K.
> Someone toying with QTR and UCs could test and confirm if the presence
> of yellow ink increases metamerism.
>
>>  I assumed
>> that prints made with the newest driver for the 2000p were so blue b/c
>> it eleminated much of the yellow ink for the same reason. Whatever the
>> reason, I much prefer prints from the older driver, even with heavy
>> color shift. Most people, as far as I know, only have incandescent
>> lighting in thier homes anyway, so this sounds like kinda kooky logic
>> on the part of epson. Of course I could be totally wrong.
>
> You may be giving Epson too much credit, I doubt much technical logic
> went into whatever decisions led to these results.
> I think Ernst is correct, that the inks just happened to perform best
> under tungsten, then they responded to user complaints with the new
> driver.
> Users are so pesky, looking at their prints under various light 
> sources.
> Regarding profiling for different illumination color temperatures,
> it's pretty common these days. Particularly for work for specific
> installations or exhibits. Still given the lack of sophistication with
> Epson's pre-Atkeson profiling, I doubt they were doing that.
> Tyler

Carl,

If you print a picture with a deep blue sky using UC inks you'll easily 
see a shift from purplish blue to cyan if you move from fluorescent to 
daylight. This is consistent with the shift you would see with a 
"neutral" print printed with the Epson driver. This could indicate that 
either the cyan or the magenta inks (or both) are the cause of 
metamerism, not yellow.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> I agree that the "yellow ink causes metamerism" hypothesis is 
> unverified and probably false, but it would be difficult to test.  
> Metamerism is most apparent in neutral prints so if one created a 
> series of neutral profiles with increasing amounts of yellow added it 
> would be necessary to also add increasing amounts of cyan and magenta 
> to maintain neutrality.  At some point the neutral grays would become 
> metameric, but does the metamerism occur because of the additional 
> yellow ink or the CM?  I suspect it is the latter but I'm not sure how 
> to set up a test to confirm this.  Sepia prints I've made with profiles 
> that use only K,LK, LM, and Y do not appear to be metameric but they 
> are of course also far from neutral.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> I agree that the "yellow ink causes metamerism" hypothesis is 
> unverified and probably false, but it would be difficult to test.  
snip...
> Sepia prints I've made with profiles 
> that use only K,LK, LM, and Y do not appear to be metameric...

There's our answer right there then, along with Daniel's post.
Actually that's a bit encourageing for future sepia tests.
I think it was an assumption based on people knowing IP took out
yellow, and IP created mono prints with much improved metaerism.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
>...encourageing...metaerism

Yahoo needs an on line spell check, I'm useless without it.
Tyler

This ain't a spellin' bee.  But, I'm sometimes surprised that the english majors on here don't jump on some of us.
 
Tom Baker

Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
wrote:
>...encourageing...metaerism

Yahoo needs an on line spell check, I'm useless without it.
Tyler




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daniel Staver wrote:

> If you print a picture with a deep blue sky using UC inks you'll easily 
> see a shift from purplish blue to cyan if you move from fluorescent to 
> daylight. This is consistent with the shift you would see with a 
> "neutral" print printed with the Epson driver. This could indicate that 
> either the cyan or the magenta inks (or both) are the cause of 
> metamerism, not yellow.

Daniel,

The UV content in true daylight will be difficult to cut out with 
any profiling. The only way then is profiling at 6500K or higher 
and not using a UV filter in the Spectrometer. Then it will fit 
the daylight condition but no other environment (and the inks 
will not last long either in daylight). So a compromise is used 
with 5500K and the discussion continues whether a UV filter 
should be used in the Spectrometer and whether it should be in 
front of the light source (SpectroCam for example) or in front of 
the sensor.  If there's no information of the display conditions 
then 5500K and no UV filter is the best choice in my opinion. Not 
mentioning the effects of OBAs in the paper/coating when UV light 
is around and laminations/varnishes that block the UV light. 
Problematic metamerism happens already at indoor conditions, I 
doubt there's an ink that will not metamerise when used outdoors 
if profiled at 5500K.

Ernst

> Problematic metamerism happens already at indoor conditions, I 
> doubt there's an ink that will not metamerise when used outdoors 
> if profiled at 5500K.

You're probably right. But the shift is also very visible just between 
the two lamps on my desk. Under one lamp a deep blue sky will look way 
too purple, under another it's closer to what I see one screen. If I 
move closer to the window it starts to look cyan.

Once I swapped out the yellow cartridge with an UT yellow (very light 
carbon gray) cartridge to see what happened when I printed a grayscale 
image. The resulting image was bright purple, which means they Epson 
driver is running all the colors nearly full strength and trying to 
balance them out to look neutral. Very different from the IP/QTR 
approach of printing mostly K+LK and subtly toning them with just enough 
ink to make the print look neutral.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Daniel Staver wrote:

>>Problematic metamerism happens already at indoor conditions, I 
>>doubt there's an ink that will not metamerise when used outdoors 
>>if profiled at 5500K.
> 
> 
> You're probably right. But the shift is also very visible just between 
> the two lamps on my desk. Under one lamp a deep blue sky will look way 
> too purple, under another it's closer to what I see one screen. If I 
> move closer to the window it starts to look cyan.
> 
> Once I swapped out the yellow cartridge with an UT yellow (very light 
> carbon gray) cartridge to see what happened when I printed a grayscale 
> image. The resulting image was bright purple, which means they Epson 
> driver is running all the colors nearly full strength and trying to 
> balance them out to look neutral. Very different from the IP/QTR 
> approach of printing mostly K+LK and subtly toning them with just enough 
> ink to make the print look neutral.

Daniel,

That the Epson driver is using the channels at full strength 
doesn't surprise me given the gamut of that inkset. Epson makes a 
color printer in the first place to satisfy the customers and the 
balancing act of getting nice greys as well is something for the 
pros. Getting nice greys only is yet another niche in the market. 
  But not so niche as I thought some time ago, this mailing list 
has as many members as the Qimage list :-)

Ernst

Hi Tyler,

You might want to take a look at ieSpell. I've used it for a year or 
so and find it very helpful. Here's link...

http://www.iespell.com/

Don



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> >...encourageing...metaerism
> 
> Yahoo needs an on line spell check, I'm useless without it.
> Tyler

Well, it's for IE, no go here <G>
But thanks,
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dpullem"
<dp2@w...> wrote:

> Hi Tyler,
> 
> You might want to take a look at ieSpell. I've used it for a year or 
> so and find it very helpful. Here's link...
> 
> http://www.iespell.com/
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> > <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > >...encourageing...metaerism
> > 
> > Yahoo needs an on line spell check, I'm useless without it.
> > Tyler

The ieSpell button appears in my IE toolbar.  When I respond or post 
a message to a Yahoo forum it shows up in the toolbar.  If you use 
Internet Explorer you can spell check you posts on any Yahoo forum.

Don

Don--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> Well, it's for IE, no go here <G>
> But thanks,
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dpullem"
> <dp2@w...> wrote:
> > Hi Tyler,
> > 
> > You might want to take a look at ieSpell. I've used it for a year 
or 
> > so and find it very helpful. Here's link...
> > 
> > http://www.iespell.com/
> > 
> > Don
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler 
Boley" 
> > <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler 
Boley"

> > > <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > > >...encourageing...metaerism
> > > 
> > > Yahoo needs an on line spell check, I'm useless without it.
> > > Tyler

Daniel & Tyler,

Here are some spectral plots (eye-one measurements) for a 50% gray 
patch printed with an Epson 2200 (UC inks) using the Epson driver and 
neutral, carbon, and sepia QTR profiles.  The spectral distribution of 
the QTR pure carbon 50% gray (K + LK) is smooth and the added LM + LC 
in the neutral QTR 50% gray and LM + Y in the QTR sepia 50% gray 
introduces some variations in the spectra, but not enough to cause 
visible metamerism.  In contrast, the Epson driver gray is highly 
metameric and the spectrum exhibits sharp fluctuations in spectral 
intensity.  The x axis in the plot should read wavelength in nm and not 
epson driver.

http://homepage.mac.com/scho/spectra.jpg

On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 09:53  PM, Daniel Staver wrote:

> Carl,
>
> If you print a picture with a deep blue sky using UC inks you'll easily
> see a shift from purplish blue to cyan if you move from fluorescent to
> daylight. This is consistent with the shift you would see with a
> "neutral" print printed with the Epson driver. This could indicate that
> either the cyan or the magenta inks (or both) are the cause of
> metamerism, not yellow.
>
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>
>> I agree that the "yellow ink causes metamerism" hypothesis is
>> unverified and probably false, but it would be difficult to test.
>> Metamerism is most apparent in neutral prints so if one created a
>> series of neutral profiles with increasing amounts of yellow added it
>> would be necessary to also add increasing amounts of cyan and magenta
>> to maintain neutrality.  At some point the neutral grays would become
>> metameric, but does the metamerism occur because of the additional
>> yellow ink or the CM?  I suspect it is the latter but I'm not sure how
>> to set up a test to confirm this.  Sepia prints I've made with 
>> profiles
>> that use only K,LK, LM, and Y do not appear to be metameric but they
>> are of course also far from neutral.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Cool, thank you.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Daniel & Tyler,
> 
> Here are some spectral plots (eye-one measurements) for a 50% gray 
> patch printed with an Epson 2200 (UC inks) using the Epson driver and 
> neutral, carbon, and sepia QTR profiles.  The spectral distribution of 
> the QTR pure carbon 50% gray (K + LK) is smooth and the added LM + LC 
> in the neutral QTR 50% gray and LM + Y in the QTR sepia 50% gray 
> introduces some variations in the spectra, but not enough to cause 
> visible metamerism.  In contrast, the Epson driver gray is highly 
> metameric and the spectrum exhibits sharp fluctuations in spectral 
> intensity.  The x axis in the plot should read wavelength in nm and not 
> epson driver.
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/spectra.jpg
> 
> 
> On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 09:53  PM, Daniel Staver wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > If you print a picture with a deep blue sky using UC inks you'll
easily
> > see a shift from purplish blue to cyan if you move from fluorescent to
> > daylight. This is consistent with the shift you would see with a
> > "neutral" print printed with the Epson driver. This could indicate
that
> > either the cyan or the magenta inks (or both) are the cause of
> > metamerism, not yellow.
> >
> > --
> > Daniel Staver
> > http://daniel.staver.no
> >
> >> I agree that the "yellow ink causes metamerism" hypothesis is
> >> unverified and probably false, but it would be difficult to test.
> >> Metamerism is most apparent in neutral prints so if one created a
> >> series of neutral profiles with increasing amounts of yellow added it
> >> would be necessary to also add increasing amounts of cyan and magenta
> >> to maintain neutrality.  At some point the neutral grays would become
> >> metameric, but does the metamerism occur because of the additional
> >> yellow ink or the CM?  I suspect it is the latter but I'm not
sure how
> >> to set up a test to confirm this.  Sepia prints I've made with 
> >> profiles
> >> that use only K,LK, LM, and Y do not appear to be metameric but they
> >> are of course also far from neutral.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> > this same page.
> >
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Carl Schofield wrote:

> Daniel & Tyler,
> 
> Here are some spectral plots (eye-one measurements) for a 50% gray 
> patch printed with an Epson 2200 (UC inks) using the Epson driver and 
> neutral, carbon, and sepia QTR profiles.  The spectral distribution of 
> the QTR pure carbon 50% gray (K + LK) is smooth and the added LM + LC 
> in the neutral QTR 50% gray and LM + Y in the QTR sepia 50% gray 
> introduces some variations in the spectra, but not enough to cause 
> visible metamerism.  In contrast, the Epson driver gray is highly 
> metameric and the spectrum exhibits sharp fluctuations in spectral 
> intensity.  The x axis in the plot should read wavelength in nm and not 
> epson driver.

Nice!

Ever seen the gamut shape of the original Epson 9000 dye ink
profiles in a 3D profile viewer ?  If you try to custom profile
the same inks with any available profile creator you never get
that shape as wide as Epson got it.  Inflation of the gamut with
the saturation slider in the editor I guess. Not the right
approach for neutral greys and consistent color.

There's a profile editor that uses the original ICC CMYK printer
profile but takes out as much color as possible for a grey only
ICC profile (Rich Grey ?), will work like QTR in a sense, long
black generation etc. Someone mentioned it on the colorsync list
a long time ago.

Ernst

Ernst,

So are you saying that there is a way to create standard icc profiles 
for printing with the UC inks that will yield a low gamut and no 
metamerism?

Carl

On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 03:45  AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

snip..

>
> There's a profile editor that uses the original ICC CMYK printer
> profile but takes out as much color as possible for a grey only
> ICC profile (Rich Grey ?), will work like QTR in a sense, long
> black generation etc. Someone mentioned it on the colorsync list
> a long time ago.
>
> Ernst

Carl Schofield wrote:

> So are you saying that there is a way to create standard icc profiles 
> for printing with the UC inks that will yield a low gamut and no 
> metamerism?
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 03:45  AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> 
> snip..
> 
>>There's a profile editor that uses the original ICC CMYK printer
>>profile but takes out as much color as possible for a grey only
>>ICC profile (Rich Grey ?), will work like QTR in a sense, long
>>black generation etc. Someone mentioned it on the colorsync list
>>a long time ago.

For any inkset as I remember, but a CMYK printer profile that 
also has the black generation etc incorporated.  For a RIP that 
can handle CMYK printer profiles.  So not an RGB printer profile 
for an Epson driver for example.  The thread at that time didn't 
discuss metamerism but given the same goal, neutral greys and 
less color use it would give less metamerism too I think.

One way to get my memory refreshed is by asking for such a 
profile in the colorsync list. Rich Grey didn't google.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> Ernst,
> 
> So are you saying that there is a way to create standard icc profiles 
> for printing with the UC inks that will yield a low gamut and no 
> metamerism?

Coincidentally working on one right now, but CMYK only as per Ernst's
post.
Tyler

> > So are you saying that there is a way to create standard icc 
profiles 
> > for printing with the UC inks that will yield a low gamut and no 
> > metamerism?
> 
> Coincidentally working on one right now, but CMYK only as per 
Ernst's
> post.
> Tyler

I got this information Eric Bullock and from Marc Levine at X-rite 
if it can be to any help....

Regards
Soren

Works pretty well...at least for me! I start the black pretty 
early...around 3-5% and let it run all the way up to 100%. I limit 
black slightly in the RIP in order to get a higher TAC, which on 
matte papers like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag is usually around 230-240%.
*******************************************************************

About the "linear GCR" curve. There is a distinction between 
MonacoPROFILER black-curves and others: in MonacoPROFILER, the user 
can fully customize the curve. What that means is that the user can 
control both start and max endpoints - as well as curve shape. The 
user is allowed to "snap" points onto the black curve and build any 
shape they wish - including linear. While we are talking about the 
black curve, I should also point out the curve metric. The next time 
you are in MonacoPROFILER, check out the scale at the bottom of the 
curve area - you will notice it goes from 100 (white) to 0 (black). 
That's because the black generation in based on the conversion from 
Lab to device. The black start is actually in L*, so you can figure 
out at exactly what incoming L* value that you will start to write 
black.

Back to the point. Using more black in your separation forces less 
CMY. If you look at the printing behavior of Epson printers 
specifically, you will find a very "normal behavior" of the black as 
it increases in density. Yes, the black has a "bronze" cast to it, 
but is very stable and easily corrected (at least, by Monaco 
software). We have many users using the black generation setup in 
this way with Epson printers.

Lastly, GCR does not affect the properties of the ink or the media, 
only how output recipes are built. To have consistency between 
looking neutral and measuring neutral is at the intersection of a 
media's physical attributes and a user's color perception (in other 
words, it's subjective at best). You CAN reduce metamerisms is grays 
by reducing the amount of 3-color component in the separation - 
which is what manufacturers like Colorbyte do, and what users of 
MonacoPROFILER do when they use a linear GCR curve.

Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> Carl Schofield wrote:
> 
> 
>>So are you saying that there is a way to create standard icc profiles 
>>for printing with the UC inks that will yield a low gamut and no 
>>metamerism?
>>
>>Carl
>>
>>On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 03:45  AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
>>
>>snip..
>>
>>
>>>There's a profile editor that uses the original ICC CMYK printer
>>>profile but takes out as much color as possible for a grey only
>>>ICC profile (Rich Grey ?), will work like QTR in a sense, long
>>>black generation etc. Someone mentioned it on the colorsync list
>>>a long time ago.
> 
> 
> For any inkset as I remember, but a CMYK printer profile that 
> also has the black generation etc incorporated.  For a RIP that 
> can handle CMYK printer profiles.  So not an RGB printer profile 
> for an Epson driver for example.  The thread at that time didn't 
> discuss metamerism but given the same goal, neutral greys and 
> less color use it would give less metamerism too I think.
> 
> One way to get my memory refreshed is by asking for such a 
> profile in the colorsync list. Rich Grey didn't google.
> 
> Ernst

So far, the replies on the colorsync list were:

In a message dated 9/19/04 11:43:44 AM, E.Dinkla@... writes:



 >> A long time ago I asked a question in this list about the use of
 >> printer profiles for B&W printing with CMYK inksets only.
 >> Neutrality of the greys as the one and only goal.
 >> Someone replied that they made profiles like that called "Rich
 >> Grey ?" Based on an existing printer profile for a CMYK inkset
 >> they edited the profile to deliver a lower gamut with that
 >> inkset, suppress metamerism and increase consistency. I guess a
 >> long black generation and setting the saturation as low as
 >> possible does the trick.
 >> Anyone familiar with that Rich Grey profile method?
 >>


Given that a rich black has lots of CMY component in it, this 
would actually
be a poor gray, or a weak gray, in that it would have minimal 
CMY. The next
question would have to be: what type of device, and inks, since 
reducing
metamerism depends on what inks are causing it. If its 
UltraChrome pigment inkjet
inks, then   removing all yellow, and using the warm black (and 
warm gray in
those printers that offer light black) plus just enough cyan and 
magenta to
neutralize the results would probably be what you are 
describing... but that
requires a RIP, and ink channel control in the profile, or in the 
RIP. This would be
rich compared to black ink only, but would reduce metamerism 
compared to full
CMYK grayscale printing.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


 >> Anyone familiar with that Rich Grey profile method?


X-Rite's ColorShop X can indeed create such a profile from an 
existing RGB
or CMYK output profile.

Andrew Rodney
http://digitaldog.net/

end of quotes, and no reply of the man that at that time 
answered. Will keep you informed.

Ernst

Soren, I'm sure MonacoPROFILER works very well, but I haven't had the
pleasure of working with it. While access to such flexibility may
differ, I can say that Colorvision Profiler Pro, and Gretag PM will
give you the same abilities to customize your K curve.
Which works best I am yet to discover. I will say that after years of
working with it, CV ProfilerPro is consistantly impressive and simple
to use. Recent updates seem to yeild the best results yet. I just made
a profile for someone with a new Canon i9900, they were amazed at the
results and had used other very "visible" profiling services using
Gretag that were apparently less amazing.
Using the EyeOne with it remains the biggest inconvenience, now that
the Spectrocam is all but dead.
But Eric and Marc are correct, many people with RIPs and UCs are going
this route for B&W.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sören Lindqvist
<soren.lindqvist@t...> wrote:

> > > So are you saying that there is a way to create standard icc 
> profiles 
> > > for printing with the UC inks that will yield a low gamut and no 
> > > metamerism?
> > 
> > Coincidentally working on one right now, but CMYK only as per 
> Ernst's
> > post.
> > Tyler
> 
> I got this information Eric Bullock and from Marc Levine at X-rite 
> if it can be to any help....
> 
> Regards
> Soren
> 
> Works pretty well...at least for me! I start the black pretty 
> early...around 3-5% and let it run all the way up to 100%. I limit 
> black slightly in the RIP in order to get a higher TAC, which on 
> matte papers like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag is usually around 230-240%.
> *******************************************************************
> 
> About the "linear GCR" curve. There is a distinction between 
> MonacoPROFILER black-curves and others: in MonacoPROFILER, the user 
> can fully customize the curve. What that means is that the user can 
> control both start and max endpoints - as well as curve shape. The 
> user is allowed to "snap" points onto the black curve and build any 
> shape they wish - including linear. While we are talking about the 
> black curve, I should also point out the curve metric. The next time 
> you are in MonacoPROFILER, check out the scale at the bottom of the 
> curve area - you will notice it goes from 100 (white) to 0 (black). 
> That's because the black generation in based on the conversion from 
> Lab to device. The black start is actually in L*, so you can figure 
> out at exactly what incoming L* value that you will start to write 
> black.
> 
> Back to the point. Using more black in your separation forces less 
> CMY. If you look at the printing behavior of Epson printers 
> specifically, you will find a very "normal behavior" of the black as 
> it increases in density. Yes, the black has a "bronze" cast to it, 
> but is very stable and easily corrected (at least, by Monaco 
> software). We have many users using the black generation setup in 
> this way with Epson printers.
> 
> Lastly, GCR does not affect the properties of the ink or the media, 
> only how output recipes are built. To have consistency between 
> looking neutral and measuring neutral is at the intersection of a 
> media's physical attributes and a user's color perception (in other 
> words, it's subjective at best). You CAN reduce metamerisms is grays 
> by reducing the amount of 3-color component in the separation - 
> which is what manufacturers like Colorbyte do, and what users of 
> MonacoPROFILER do when they use a linear GCR curve.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Ernst Dinkla wrote:
snip
> X-Rite's ColorShop X can indeed create such a profile from an 
> existing RGB
> or CMYK output profile.
> 
> Andrew Rodney
> http://digitaldog.net/
> 
> end of quotes, and no reply of the man that at that time 
> answered. Will keep you informed.

Ernst, Andrew keeps saying that, so I keep trying it. I have yet to
get anything useable from it. Not sure what it's really for.
Definitely not for what we are after.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> Soren, I'm sure MonacoPROFILER works very well, but I haven't had 
the
> pleasure of working with it. While access to such flexibility may
> differ, I can say that Colorvision Profiler Pro, and Gretag PM will
> give you the same abilities to customize your K curve.
> Which works best I am yet to discover. I will say that after years 
of
> working with it, CV ProfilerPro is consistantly impressive and 
simple
> to use. Recent updates seem to yeild the best results yet. I just 
made
> a profile for someone with a new Canon i9900, they were amazed at 
the
> results and had used other very "visible" profiling services using
> Gretag that were apparently less amazing.
> Using the EyeOne with it remains the biggest inconvenience, now 
that
> the Spectrocam is all but dead.
> But Eric and Marc are correct, many people with RIPs and UCs are 
going
> this route for B&W.
> Tyler

Tyler, interesting...unfortunately I'm not in possess of 
MonacoProfiler so Im not able to test it. I do have PM5 that make 
better profiles then PM4 (for me) Is there a pdf manual to get hold 
on for CV ProfilerPro? Not much of information on CV website....

Tyler Boley wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
> <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
>>Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> 
> snip
> 
>>X-Rite's ColorShop X can indeed create such a profile from an 
>>existing RGB
>>or CMYK output profile.
>>
>>Andrew Rodney
>>http://digitaldog.net/
>>
>>end of quotes, and no reply of the man that at that time 
>>answered. Will keep you informed.
> 
> 
> Ernst, Andrew keeps saying that, so I keep trying it. I have yet to
> get anything useable from it. Not sure what it's really for.
> Definitely not for what we are after.
> Tyler

Tyler,

I expected that.  At least an RGB printer profile has to many 
limitations for it or you must have a permission to get into the 
guts of IP to create the right environment. The Wasatch SoftRip 
allows it too as it has an RGB device mode but in both cases it 
is in fact a CMYK printer profile creation in two steps.

So even for CMYK printer profiles it doesn't work ?

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sören Lindqvist
<soren.lindqvist@t...> wrote:
snip...
> Tyler, interesting...unfortunately I'm not in possess of 
> MonacoProfiler so Im not able to test it. I do have PM5 that make 
> better profiles then PM4 (for me) Is there a pdf manual to get hold 
> on for CV ProfilerPro? Not much of information on CV website....

Hi Soren, I wouldn't bother looking into more software since you have
PM5, it should do what you need with access to the same controls Marc
was talking about. When you make a CMYK profile, hit the "separation"
buttin and you'll see it all. Kgen, start, stop, width, etc..
I have yet to arrive at the results I'm after, but it's heading in the
right direction. I'm tempted to sart over with CV Profiler Pro but
haven't worked through all the PM4 options yet to make sure I'm not
missing something and am working long distance, also with an
unfamiliar RIP.
You're on StudioPrint right? I believe Peter could walk you through
all this, he told me he's done it easily.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
snip...
> >>X-Rite's ColorShop X can indeed create such a profile from an 
> >>existing RGB
> >>or CMYK output profile.
> >>
> >>Andrew Rodney
> >>http://digitaldog.net/
> >>
> >>end of quotes, and no reply of the man that at that time 
> >>answered. Will keep you informed.
> > 
> > 
> > Ernst, Andrew keeps saying that, so I keep trying it. I have yet to
> > get anything useable from it. Not sure what it's really for.
> > Definitely not for what we are after.
> > Tyler
> 
> Tyler,
> 
> I expected that.  At least an RGB printer profile has to many 
> limitations for it or you must have a permission to get into the 
> guts of IP to create the right environment. The Wasatch SoftRip 
> allows it too as it has an RGB device mode but in both cases it 
> is in fact a CMYK printer profile creation in two steps.
> 
> So even for CMYK printer profiles it doesn't work ?

I wouldn't say it doesn't work, I'd say it doesn't do what we're
after. It seems to do what the name implies, which is make a rich
black by it's traditional definition, adding CMY to K, increasingly
down the scale resulting in, well, a rich black. Unfortunately it also
doesn't seem to take into consideration all of the info in the
original profile to add CMY in a neutral way, at least a quick test
failed to do so today.
I wish I could tell you more, but every time I try it I get something
whacky and just give up.
I've got an out of date demo version here, perhaps new versions would
be better, there were also no options or control, just does what it
does with little explanation.
Since I think this started off with how to make a profile that
replaces all neutrals with K, and some neutralizing CMY, I have a
feeling this feature is for something entirely different, increasing
TAC etc..
Maybe?
Tyler

Tyler Boley wrote:


> Since I think this started off with how to make a profile that
> replaces all neutrals with K, and some neutralizing CMY, I have a
> feeling this feature is for something entirely different, increasing
 > TAC

That is its task. Making Rich Black which is almost the opposite 
of what we want.

Like David Tobie writes the term "Rich Grey" isn't appropriate 
for a profile that tries to make a neutral B&W print with a black 
that is as poor as neutrality allows. But "Poor Grey" isn't 
selling well. It is something closer to BO than to Rich Black. 
"Lean Grey" "Lean Black"?  English isn't my tongue.

Starting from a neutral printer profile and editing that profile 
as much as possible with the saturation slider in the negative 
should get you somewhere I think.  Taking out the yellow channel 
and getting neutrality in line again with the cyan and magenta 
may take more time and is more problematic. In the end it should 
give the same profile. If the process is linear enough.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> It may be, but it seems to be an assumption without verification. The
> reason a great deal, if not all, yellow is removed from the various UC
> monochrome solutions out there (like IP) is that the light K ink now
> running all the way up the scale is very warm, and no yellow ink is
> required. Actually, to help metamerism as much color ink as possible
> is removed with these solutions, but some CM (or light CM) is required
> to neutralize the warm light K.
> Someone toying with QTR and UCs could test and confirm if the presence
> of yellow ink increases metamerism.

I have some hi-rez scans on my website of 2200 prints made with
different drivers showing individual droplets:

This is the default Epson driver doing its best gray:
http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/ijimages/ed1a.jpg

Black-Only at the highest dot resolution:
http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/ijimages/edbo1a.jpg

The IP RIP
http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/ijimages/ip1a.jpg
(N.B. no yellow)

The Epson RIP (since discontinued)
http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/ijimages/er1a.jpg

...sorry the scans aren't better but they were at the limit of the
resolution of my 1640su.

I thought the IP RIP had the nicest-looking BW output, followed by the
Epson RIP.  Both were relatively free of metamerism.   But none of
them (and nothing else I've seen on an inkjet) is as good, to me, as
the same digital file printed photographically.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> Users are so pesky, looking at their prints under various light sources.
> Regarding profiling for different illumination color temperatures,
> it's pretty common these days. Particularly for work for specific
> installations or exhibits.

Assuming we regard printing for specific installations or exhibits as
"pretty common".    

I agree that the occasional fine-art photographer may have the need or
ability to predict the lighting where his work will be displayed.  But
most of us (artists who display their work in galleries) are
displaying it FOR SALE.   Which means we cannot predict the lighting
where the customer will display it after purchase.

My experience in balancing BW prints specifically for one kind of
light, say tungsten or "daylight" fluorescent or whatever is that it
IS possible to optimize it for a particular light but that the result
looks dramatically WORSE under other light.     For example with the
default Epson driver, 2200 BW output looks pinkish under "daylight"
fluorescent and greenish under true daylight.   I can make it look
neutral under the fluorescents but then it looks REALLY green under
daylight!

So forget that!   There are other technologies (quadtone, photographic
printing, etc) that don't have those problems.  So why tie yourself
into a knot optimizing a mixed-color inkset for particular light sources?

Peter wrote:  "I thought the IP RIP had the nicest-looking BW output, followed by the
Epson RIP.  Both were relatively free of metamerism.   But none of
them (and nothing else I've seen on an inkjet) is as good, to me, as
the same digital file printed photographically. "
 
That's a matter of taste.  Not saying it isn't good.  But, I get results with the digital art papers that I always wanted with the silver, and couldn't get.  At the moment, at least, we still have a choice.
 
Tom Baker






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter Nelson wrote:

> This is the default Epson driver doing its best gray:
> http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/ijimages/ed1a.jpg

> 
> The Epson RIP (since discontinued)
> http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/ijimages/er1a.jpg


Which shows the different approaches of the market by Epson quite 
well.  Neutral greys and consistent colors are more important to 
RIP users than to the users of the Epson driver that get a wider 
and probably warmer gamut. Could be the RGB printer profiles used 
in the samples of course but black generation can't be controlled 
in both drivers (and profiles)  so that's Epsons work.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> > Users are so pesky, looking at their prints under various light
sources.
> > Regarding profiling for different illumination color temperatures,
> > it's pretty common these days. Particularly for work for specific
> > installations or exhibits.
> 
> Assuming we regard printing for specific installations or exhibits as
> "pretty common".    
> 
> I agree that the occasional fine-art photographer may have the need or
> ability to predict the lighting where his work will be displayed.  But
> most of us (artists who display their work in galleries) are
> displaying it FOR SALE.   Which means we cannot predict the lighting
> where the customer will display it after purchase.
> 
> My experience in balancing BW prints specifically for one kind of
> light, say tungsten or "daylight" fluorescent or whatever is that it
> IS possible to optimize it for a particular light but that the result
> looks dramatically WORSE under other light.     For example with the
> default Epson driver, 2200 BW output looks pinkish under "daylight"
> fluorescent and greenish under true daylight.   I can make it look
> neutral under the fluorescents but then it looks REALLY green under
> daylight!

I didn't recommend it, i said it's being done. For color as well.

> So forget that!   There are other technologies (quadtone, photographic
> printing, etc) that don't have those problems.  So why tie yourself
> into a knot optimizing a mixed-color inkset for particular light
sources?

Well, what can one do?
People do the darndest things.
Tyler