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2004-11-15 by aaltenmueller
As I wrote in an earlier post the piezotone carts for the 7600 are on backorder for 4 weeks now. So I think of moving to UT-FSN. If someone has comparison scans of prints it woul be very helpful for me. Andreas
2004-11-15 by Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: aaltenmueller [mailto:a.altenmueller@...] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:57 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] comparison hue of piezotone selen - UT-FSN As I wrote in an earlier post the piezotone carts for the 7600 are on backorder for 4 weeks now. So I think of moving to UT-FSN. ....so can I assume that you see no difference between Piezo and UT-FSN then? You might care to ask yourself just why there is a four week back order and consider well the possibility that product popularity is the cause. In which case I put it to you that you would be wise to wait. Richard --- [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are currently using to read this email. ]
2004-11-15 by aaltenmueller
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <richard@r...> wrote: > ....so can I assume that you see no difference between Piezo and UT-FSN > then? No, you shouldn't assume that- the reason I asked for comparison scans is that I fear the differences might be (too) great. > You might care to ask yourself just why there is a four week back order and > consider well the possibility that product popularity is the cause. The cause may be whatever - I am no hobbyist and 4 weeks backorder is (at least) 2 too long. I do know piezotone is probably the best product but ... Andreas
2004-11-15 by Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: aaltenmueller [mailto:a.altenmueller@...] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:51 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] comparison hue of piezotone selen - UT-FSN --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <richard@r...> wrote: > ....so can I assume that you see no difference between Piezo and UT-FSN > then? No, you shouldn't assume that- the reason I asked for comparison scans is that I fear the differences might be (too) great. > You might care to ask yourself just why there is a four week back order and > consider well the possibility that product popularity is the cause. The cause may be whatever - I am no hobbyist and 4 weeks backorder is (at least) 2 too long. I do know piezotone is probably the best product but ... Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread - my man. Delivery times only matter when two products or services are seen as the same and where Piezo is concerned they most certainly are not. My advice to you is to wait. Richard Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links --- [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are currently using to read this email. ] --- [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are currently using to read this email. ]
2004-11-15 by Paul Roark
>> ...so can I assume that you see no difference between Piezo and >>UT-FSN then? >... >I do know piezotone is probably the best product but ... No, the UT family does better in fade tests, is glossy compatible, and cheaper. That puts it ahead in my book. The hues are generally matched in that both follow the standard of the lightly toned silver print, with spectrophotometer readings characterized by midtone cyan = yellow, and magenta 0.01 density unit higher. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2004-11-16 by Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:26 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Digital BW] comparison hue of piezotone selen - UT-FSN >> ...so can I assume that you see no difference between Piezo and >>UT-FSN then? >... >I do know piezotone is probably the best product but ... No, the UT family does better in fade tests, is glossy compatible, and cheaper. That puts it ahead in my book. Your bound to say that - you do the curves - but Piezo do their own which puts them ahead in my book Richard --- [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are currently using to read this email. ]
2004-11-16 by aaltenmueller
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote: > >> ...so can I assume that you see no difference between Piezo and > >>UT-FSN then? > > >... > >I do know piezotone is probably the best product but ... > > No, the UT family does better in fade tests, is glossy compatible, and > cheaper. That puts it ahead in my book. > > The hues are generally matched in that both follow the standard of the > lightly toned silver print, with spectrophotometer readings characterized by > midtone cyan = yellow, and magenta 0.01 density unit higher. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com Better in fade tests? Please tell the link where to read it! Regarding the hue: IMHO the overall look of an BW-print can't be described by a single midtone measurement. Equally measured the look can be quite different. The prices: For small carts and bulk ink you are right, but not for the larger 7xxx and 9xxx carts. Andreas
2004-11-16 by Paul Roark
Andreas, With respect to UT v. PT fade, in my 2/03 300 hour test the PT-S 50% patch dropped 0.01 density unit, the UT1 with the neutral curve was unchanged. Both were on Photo Rag. With the latest UT formula after 600 hours the UT1 neutral actually increased slightly in density, which is typical of the UT carbon-tone prints, but is the first neutral print I've ever measured to exhibit this. To put this in perspective, the PT and UT inks are both excellent -- way ahead of the Epson Archival inkset in my fade tests, which I do not, however, take to a 30% fade end point. Keep in mind that I was responding to an unsupported statement implying the PT inkset was better. That is simply not true. I will go so far at to say that, as far as I know, there is no neutral-tone inkset for desktop printers that can equal the fade resistance of the latest neutral C86 EZ ink, and I'll send a test strip to anyone who would like to do a comparison fade test. (My goal is to beat the silver print.) I agree with you that a single midtone hue measurement does not mean that the "neutral-selenium" inkjet prints are equal in look to a silver print. There are obviously more variables. However, the PT-S and UT-N hue targets are about the same. One of the inkjet problems has been that the black pigments are warm, whereas the lightly-selenium-toned silver print shadows get cooler. The inksets tend to get cooler at about 75%, but on matte paper there is, so far, no way to stop a warm cross-over as one reaches the deep shadows, where the black ink tone takes over. Eboni and PT-Museum are about as good as matte black gets. However, on glossy paper, the UT2 & UT7 can achieve a cool 100% black because they use the dark grays to generate it. The dark cold gray can keep the 100% neutral or even cool. As to the price comparisons, I look at bulk ink prices. The PT-S 4 oz. cyan bottle is $44. The UT-FSN 4 oz. bottle is $18. The per-print ink costs when refilling the "refill-friendly" carts with MIS UT ink is extremely low. I do not recommend bottom filling/re-filling of older desktop carts, but I find my 7500 carts and the newest C86 and 2200 carts to be extremely easy to refill. (I'm not sure if MIS is still shipping the older, not-so-friendly carts for these machines. I'll check and post the answer I get.) Paul www.PaulRoark.com _____________________________
-----Original Message----- From: aaltenmueller [mailto:a.altenmueller@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:34 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] comparison hue of piezotone selen - UT-FSN --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote: > >> ...so can I assume that you see no difference between Piezo and > >>UT-FSN then? > > >... > >I do know piezotone is probably the best product but ... > > No, the UT family does better in fade tests, is glossy compatible, and > cheaper. That puts it ahead in my book. > > The hues are generally matched in that both follow the standard of the > lightly toned silver print, with spectrophotometer readings characterized by > midtone cyan = yellow, and magenta 0.01 density unit higher. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com Better in fade tests? Please tell the link where to read it! Regarding the hue: IMHO the overall look of an BW-print can't be described by a single midtone measurement. Equally measured the look can be quite different. The prices: For small carts and bulk ink you are right, but not for the larger 7xxx and 9xxx carts. Andreas Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2004-11-16 by Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:56 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Digital BW] comparison hue of piezotone selen - UT-FSN Andreas, With respect to UT v. PT fade, in my 2/03 300 hour test the PT-S 50% patch dropped 0.01 density unit, the UT1 with the neutral curve was unchanged. Both were on Photo Rag. With the latest UT formula after 600 hours the UT1 neutral actually increased slightly in density, which is typical of the UT carbon-tone prints, but is the first neutral print I've ever measured to exhibit this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wish to dispute all fade testing procedures as being totally irrelevant. No one will know how much fade a particular ink set will actually exhibit after 50, 100 or 150 years until that actual time has passed and density reading are taken on an actual hung print - as if anyone really would bother anyway. Well I suppose the old curvemeister might if he managed to survive that long. Artificial attempts to simulate the passing of real time can only be guestimates at best and totally misleading at worst. Further I would suggest that any fade that actually occurs after the aforementioned period would be largely irrelevant to a would-be buyer. Twice a year I attend collectors print shows in London and although the condition of a print can matter to some, as far as I can see, old prints still sell whatever their condition and indeed an aged photographic image has a charm all of it's own and a pristine Julia Margaret Cameron would not be so subjectively interesting as a pleasantly faded masterpiece by self same AMATEUR photographer. I would further wish to express the opinion that the more a print fades the better, unless of course one would wish to see a world thigh deep in acid free rag - like the corn to an elephants thigh If anyone really wishes to keep a print in pristine nick then refrain from placing same on wall but rather lock away said masterpiece in vacuum vault where it will remain forever taking up space and contributing nothing. Rather like my posts really - don't you think? Richard - all replies to be sent in a plain brown faded envelope and posted to my email address above.....now watch in amazement while I slowly fade away - over the next 100 years of course. --- [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are currently using to read this email. ]
2004-11-16 by aaltenmueller
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote: ... > I agree with you that a single midtone hue measurement does not mean that > the "neutral-selenium" inkjet prints are equal in look to a silver print. > There are obviously more variables. However, the PT-S and UT-N hue targets > are about the same. > > One of the inkjet problems has been that the black pigments are warm, > whereas the lightly-selenium-toned silver print shadows get cooler. The > inksets tend to get cooler at about 75%, but on matte paper there is, so > far, no way to stop a warm cross-over as one reaches the deep shadows, where > the black ink tone takes over. ... Paul, I think there are even more variables. In the VM inksets you can go from warm to cold - but the color is fixed to this straight line between the endpoints. My feeling is that the piezotone selen has a composition of hues from black to white which is unique and I like it very much. I was not able to reproduce it with UT1, not with the curves and not with QTR. Thats the point where I think it to be "best" - aesthetically. Andreas
2004-11-16 by Paul Roark
Andreas, You wrote: >I think there are even more variables. I agree that there are a number of variables. >In the VM inksets you can go from warm to cold - but the color is >fixed to this straight line between the endpoints. First, the original VM inkset is obsolete, in my view. However, one reason I like the variable-tone inksets, in general, is that I can better profile papers to offset the tendency of many papers to print rather differently in the shadows. On the other hand, if I want cooler shadows, I can do that also. >My feeling is that the piezotone selen has a composition of hues >from black to white which is unique and I like it very much. >I was not able to reproduce it with UT1, not with the >curves and not with QTR. That is probably also true. Unlike the early formulas, the UT2 and newer inksets, including the latest UT-FSN, the darker inks or toners have a different mix of "blue" toner in them than the lighter ones. My ink formulas have definitely become more complex (much to MIS's chagrin). (The UT1 bulk ink has been updated with the latest pigs, but the dark and light toners still have the same hue. Users of the new inks may notice less magenta in the shadows even with the single-hue new inks, however, due to better characteristics of the new pigments.) >That's the point where I think it to be "best" - aesthetically. Of course, what each of us thinks is the "best" will vary. I largely design to my own tastes, but others clearly have other preferences. Part of me wants to make a pigmented low gamut inkset. (With the latest color pigments that I'm able to use, my desire to have pure carbon available for longevity purposes has been virtually eliminated.) A low gamut inkset would be especially attractive to me if we could plug into the existing profiling software. However, at least one expert doesn't think they'll work with low gamut inks -- a proposition I'd like to test. Of course, balancing gamut with metamerism would be part of the challenge. But, if I could make a low gamut inkset that had excellent monitor matching, then users would have the freedom to custom design custom hues. (Anyway, it would be a fun challenge.) Paul www.PaulRoark.com _______________________________ --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote: ... > I agree with you that a single midtone hue measurement does not mean that > the "neutral-selenium" inkjet prints are equal in look to a silver print. > There are obviously more variables. However, the PT-S and UT-N hue targets > are about the same. > > One of the inkjet problems has been that the black pigments are warm, > whereas the lightly-selenium-toned silver print shadows get cooler. The > inksets tend to get cooler at about 75%, but on matte paper there is, so > far, no way to stop a warm cross-over as one reaches the deep shadows, where > the black ink tone takes over. ... Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2004-11-17 by john dean
---Well, there is fade and then there is bullshit color shift, which is downright ugly and destructive. I certainly don't mind seeing a slightly faded Cezanne painting or Callahan silver print, but one of those pathetic 20x24 polaroids or green dye transfer c prints is disgusting. Especially when you think about how much work some of those guys put into making them back in the 60's and 70's ( and now). There has been 20 years of beautuful type c prints that should just be trashed now because they are worthless pieces of plastic. 100 years is not too much to ask, 200 is better, pollution will be the big factor though, not light.