Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Roger Smith 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:02 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves


  I have never used the Piezo system, or for
  that matter seen the results, but it's hard for me to imagine that they are
  any better than what I am seeing.  

Me neither I haven´t used the Piezo system, however I wonder about resolution: I read on the Piezo3000 list that the Cone driver can handle input files of more than 360dpi *and* print more detail, whereas the Epson driver´s limit is just 360. Can anybody say something about his experience with detail resolution and Epson vs. Cone? My MIS FS prints are nice, but its always interesting to get better...

greetings bernhard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cone claims that the piezo driver doubles resolution and alters the dither
pattern. I don't know how. As soon as my FS arrives I want to compare the
woolf workflow versus the piezo driver.

Julian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernhard Ess" <albatros.bee@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Roger Smith
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:02 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves


  I have never used the Piezo system, or for
  that matter seen the results, but it's hard for me to imagine that they
are
  any better than what I am seeing.

Me neither I haven\ufffdt used the Piezo system, however I wonder about
resolution: I read on the Piezo3000 list that the Cone driver can handle
input files of more than 360dpi *and* print more detail, whereas the Epson
driver\ufffds limit is just 360. Can anybody say something about his experience
with detail resolution and Epson vs. Cone? My MIS FS prints are nice, but
its always interesting to get better...

greetings bernhard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Cone claims that the piezo driver doubles resolution and alters 
the dither
> pattern. I don't know how. As soon as my FS arrives I want to 
compare the
> woolf workflow versus the piezo driver.
> 
> Julian

Julian, 
if you print MIS FS with the Cone driver there is virtually no 
difference in quality to the Piezo inks, though the tone is slightly 
cooler.
If you print MIS FS with the Epson driver on an 1160 you may see 
dots, but only with a magnifier. In a normal view-distance there is 
no difference in quality
If you print MIS VM with Paul´s curves on an 1270/80/90 in the 
2880 dpi mode you don´t see dots any longer, even with the 
magnifier.
These prints are great. The only problem may be:  changing big 
files from greyscale to RGB is time and memory consuming,
Printing big files in 2880 dpi mode is also rather time 
consuming (like printing on a 3000 with the 5.1.3e update of the 
Cone driver).
(Sample prints will be on their way tomorrow)
Bernd

The Piezo driver DOES NOT double the resolution. What it does is overprint to fill in between the dots thereby giving the visual impression and equivalent look of doubling the resolution of the printer. 

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julian Thomas 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 1:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves


  Cone claims that the piezo driver doubles resolution and alters the dither
  pattern. I don't know how. As soon as my FS arrives I want to compare the
  woolf workflow versus the piezo driver.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ahh, so THAT is how it works. Thanks Mike!

Julin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves


> The Piezo driver DOES NOT double the resolution. What it does is overprint
to fill in between the dots thereby giving the visual impression and
equivalent look of doubling the resolution of the printer.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael J. Kravit, AIA
> Architect/Photographer
> www.kravit.net/photography
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Julian Thomas
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 1:22 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves
>
>
>   Cone claims that the piezo driver doubles resolution and alters the
dither
>   pattern. I don't know how. As soon as my FS arrives I want to compare
the
>   woolf workflow versus the piezo driver.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I can't tell them apart at any resolution. Depending on your eyesight,
you can probably detect a very small difference up to about 480 DPI
resolution with either system, but you're really picking nits here.

jerry



Bernhard Ess wrote:

> 
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Roger Smith
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:02 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves
> 
>   I have never used the Piezo system, or for
>   that matter seen the results, but it's hard for me to imagine that they are
>   any better than what I am seeing.
> 
> Me neither I haven\ufffdt used the Piezo system, however I wonder about resolution: I read on the Piezo3000 list that the Cone driver can handle input files of more than 360dpi *and* print more detail, whereas the Epson driver\ufffds limit is just 360. Can anybody say something about his experience with detail resolution and Epson vs. Cone? My MIS FS prints are nice, but its always interesting to get better...
> 
> greetings bernhard
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

But the Piezo prints don't look any sharper than prints on a 1280 with
VM inks and Paul's curves. Not even with a loupe, that I can see.

Jerry



Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> Ahh, so THAT is how it works. Thanks Mike!
> 
> Julin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" <kravit@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 1:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves
> 
> > The Piezo driver DOES NOT double the resolution. What it does is overprint
> to fill in between the dots thereby giving the visual impression and
> equivalent look of doubling the resolution of the printer.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Michael J. Kravit, AIA
> > Architect/Photographer
> > www.kravit.net/photography
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Julian Thomas
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 1:22 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves
> >
> >
> >   Cone claims that the piezo driver doubles resolution and alters the
> dither
> >   pattern. I don't know how. As soon as my FS arrives I want to compare
> the
> >   woolf workflow versus the piezo driver.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

Here is how they figure it. The printer actually prints at 720dpi. If 
it makes 2 passes it is 1440dpi, three passes 2160, 4 passes 2880dpi. 
Imagine that. Si in reality the printer truly is printing 1440, 2160 
(Piezo) or 2880 as in the 1280. It just depends on how you look at it.

Mike



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> But the Piezo prints don't look any sharper than prints on a 1280 
with

> VM inks and Paul's curves. Not even with a loupe, that I can see.
> 
> Jerry

Bernhard,

I have Piezo on a 1200 and MIS VM on a 1280. I see no difference in 
sharpness or the amount of detail between the two. While the Piezo 
driver will accept any input resolution with no effect on 
performance, inputting files over 360 dpi to the Epson driver greatly 
increase image processing times without offering any visual 
improvements in the image. Since the end result is the same, I really 
don't know what the Piezo driver does with the extra information.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bernhard Ess" 
<albatros.bee@w...> wrote:
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Roger Smith 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:02 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves
> 
> 
>   I have never used the Piezo system, or for
>   that matter seen the results, but it's hard for me to imagine 
that they are
>   any better than what I am seeing.  
> 
> Me neither I haven´t used the Piezo system, however I wonder about 
resolution: I read on the Piezo3000 list that the Cone driver can 
handle input files of more than 360dpi *and* print more detail, 
whereas the Epson driver´s limit is just 360. Can anybody say 
something about his experience with detail resolution and Epson vs. 
Cone? My MIS FS prints are nice, but its always interesting to get 
better...

> 
> greetings bernhard
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul-

I've never seen anything that stated that greater than 360 dpi would 
produce better output, but I have seen claims that the Piezo driver 
either printed at 2100-2200 on an 1160.

I can tell you that when Piezo isn't clogging the print head, it 
really produces some smooth toned images... Unfortunately, it clogs a 
lot. I just ordered some MIS FS ink to try that on the 1160 with the 
Piezo driver (a real advantage is that the Piezo driver prints in 
about 1/3 the time of the Epson driver). If that doesn't work, I want 
to get the MIS VM and your curves... This sounds really excellent.

Tom O'Connell
TomOC@...


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bernhard Ess" 
<albatros.bee@w...> wrote:
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Roger Smith 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:02 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS VT with Paul's curves
> 
> 
>   I have never used the Piezo system, or for
>   that matter seen the results, but it's hard for me to imagine 
that they are
>   any better than what I am seeing.  
> 
> Me neither I haven´t used the Piezo system, however I wonder about 
resolution: I read on the Piezo3000 list that the Cone driver can 
handle input files of more than 360dpi *and* print more detail, 
whereas the Epson driver´s limit is just 360. Can anybody say 
something about his experience with detail resolution and Epson vs. 
Cone? My MIS FS prints are nice, but its always interesting to get 
better...

> 
> greetings bernhard
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,

You wrote:

>I've never seen anything that stated that greater than 360 dpi would
>produce better output, but I have seen claims that the Piezo driver
>either printed at 2100-2200 on an 1160.


These are two different sets of numbers.  The 360 dpi is the image file at
printing size.  I use 360 dpi as my standard.  That is, in Photoshop I like
my files to be 360 dpi when they are at the size I intend to print.  Some do
say that they can see a difference in 720 dpi files.  I've tried both and
doubt most people can detect the differences at all.

The higher "resolution" that you see -- 720x1440, or Piezo's "2160" --
refers to the dot pattern being laid down.  These printers are actually only
able to print about 10 line pairs/mm in terms of visual information.  That
could be done with 500 dots per inch.  As a practical matter the printers
have about hit the wall at 7.2 lp/mm.  That is the maximum resolution of a
360 dpi image file at printing size.  That is why I don't bother with larger
files.  But I do print at 1440 because it give smoother output.

>I can tell you that when Piezo isn't clogging the print head, it
>really produces some smooth toned images...

That is, in part, due to the high, 2160 "resolution," and also due to the
fact that it is partitioning inks -- putting only the lightest inks in the
highlights.

Interestingly, the VM-Sepia-Neutral that I'm working on is a bit smoother at
5% than Piezo in my 1160 when the neutral curve is used.  This inkset has a
neutral base ink.  Thus, the "neutral" curve withholds all toner in the
highlights.  As such, it is just the light gray in the 5% patch.  This might
indicate that the partitioning of the inks is the major source of Piezo
smoothness, not the 2160 dot pattern.

>Unfortunately, it clogs a lot.

I'm trying to figure out why and have several theories.

> I just ordered some MIS FS ink to try that on the 1160 with the
>Piezo driver (a real advantage is that the Piezo driver prints in
>about 1/3 the time of the Epson driver).

Really, on the 3000 I hear the latest Piezo driver is very slow.

I know many like the Piezo driver.  That is why I'll have ink formulas for
both the VM and Piezo workflows.  I would guess MIS will produce those that
appear to be highly demanded.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com