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roark vs qtr - newbie q.

roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-13 by jarrrush

I am wondering is someone can compare QTR to Paul Roark's methodology 
of making B and W prints from both an ease of use and technical 
standpoint (print quality as you define it). I tried installing QTR 
and QTR GUI in the next to last version on my WIN XP machine - Epson 
1270 with MIS inks and it did not seem to work for me (long story).

I just started using the Roark curves and it is working. I have not 
spent much time using this system, but it seems like a large number 
of posters to this list are using QTR and are enthusiastic about this 
system (QTR). I am wondering whether I should try getting the QTR to 
work on my machine. What does QTR allow you to do that the Roark 
curves do not? It may help to know that I am looking at getting an 
epson 2200 to do color work also. Will either system allow me to do 
both color and b and w on a 2200? I do understand from reading 
through the list that both are excellent systems but from a 
newcomer's perspective I am having a hard time figuring out the 
quality difference between the two systems. From an ease of use 
perspective, Paul's methodology seems easier to set up inititally.

Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-13 by bwbonkers

John wrote
....What does QTR allow you to do that the Roark
curves do not? It may help to know that I am looking at getting an
epson 2200 to do color work also. Will either system allow me to do
both color and b and w on a 2200? ....

I have used both systems. Pauls system I used on a 1160 with MIS UT 
inks and worked without a hitch. However it requires you to convert 
your printer to B&W  by replacing the coloured inks with a set of 
black/grey inks. Its a straight forward system and you print using 
the Epson driver. However if you want to print colour and BW from the 
same printer, then a RIP is the only answer. I recently bought a 
2100/2200 and using OEM inks print colour through the Epson driver 
and BW using QTR. Roys QTR is a great product at a bargin price. 
Installing QTR on a Mac is a doddle, on PC maybe more difficult but 
certainly worth trying. There are two other RIPs that I know of, 
ImagePrint and IJC/OPM. ImagePrint RIP is expensive but does print 
colour and B&W, and comes with many profiles. Its also does a lot 
more than just print and is a standalone product. IJC/OPM is like QTR 
a BW only RIP, but again is a standalone product and so should be 
easier to setup on your machine if you have problems with QTR. I have 
no experience of either. Check their web sites for more info.

Hope this helps a little.

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jarrrush" 
<johnr@v...> wrote:
> 
> I am wondering is someone can compare QTR to Paul Roark's 
methodology 
> of making B and W prints from both an ease of use and technical 
> standpoint (print quality as you define it). I tried installing QTR 
> and QTR GUI in the next to last version on my WIN XP machine - 
Epson 
> 1270 with MIS inks and it did not seem to work for me (long story).
> 
> I just started using the Roark curves and it is working. I have not 
> spent much time using this system, but it seems like a large number 
> of posters to this list are using QTR and are enthusiastic about 
this 
> system (QTR). I am wondering whether I should try getting the QTR 
to 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> work on my machine. What does QTR allow you to do that the Roark 
> curves do not? It may help to know that I am looking at getting an 
> epson 2200 to do color work also. Will either system allow me to do 
> both color and b and w on a 2200? I do understand from reading 
> through the list that both are excellent systems but from a 
> newcomer's perspective I am having a hard time figuring out the 
> quality difference between the two systems. From an ease of use 
> perspective, Paul's methodology seems easier to set up inititally.

Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-13 by frankg_photo

And can anyone comment on the Epson Gray Balancer - see review here

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/gray-balancer.shtml

(perhaps I should post this as a separate thread since it's not a 
direct answer/comment to the origuinal post)
================================================
> ....What does QTR allow you to do that the Roark
> curves do not? It may help to know that I am looking at getting an
> epson 2200 to do color work also. Will either system allow me to do
> both color and b and w on a 2200? ....
> 
> I have used both systems. Pauls system I used on a 1160 with MIS UT 
> inks and worked without a hitch. However it requires you to convert 
> your printer to B&W  by replacing the coloured inks with a set of 
> black/grey inks. Its a straight forward system and you print using 
> the Epson driver. However if you want to print colour and BW from 
the 
> same printer, then a RIP is the only answer. I recently bought a 
> 2100/2200 and using OEM inks print colour through the Epson driver 
> and BW using QTR. Roys QTR is a great product at a bargin price. 
> Installing QTR on a Mac is a doddle, on PC maybe more difficult but 
> certainly worth trying. There are two other RIPs that I know of, 
> ImagePrint and IJC/OPM. ImagePrint RIP is expensive but does print 
> colour and B&W, and comes with many profiles. Its also does a lot 
> more than just print and is a standalone product. IJC/OPM is like 
QTR 
> a BW only RIP, but again is a standalone product and so should be 
> easier to setup on your machine if you have problems with QTR. I 
have 
> no experience of either. Check their web sites for more info.
> 
> Hope this helps a little.
> 
> Peter
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jarrrush" 
> <johnr@v...> wrote:
> > 
> > I am wondering is someone can compare QTR to Paul Roark's 
> methodology 
> > of making B and W prints from both an ease of use and technical 
> > standpoint (print quality as you define it). I tried installing 
QTR 
> > and QTR GUI in the next to last version on my WIN XP machine - 
> Epson 
> > 1270 with MIS inks and it did not seem to work for me (long 
story).
> > 
> > I just started using the Roark curves and it is working. I have 
not 
> > spent much time using this system, but it seems like a large 
number 
> > of posters to this list are using QTR and are enthusiastic about 
> this 
> > system (QTR). I am wondering whether I should try getting the QTR 
> to 
> > work on my machine. What does QTR allow you to do that the Roark 
> > curves do not? It may help to know that I am looking at getting 
an 
> > epson 2200 to do color work also. Will either system allow me to 
do 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > both color and b and w on a 2200? I do understand from reading 
> > through the list that both are excellent systems but from a 
> > newcomer's perspective I am having a hard time figuring out the 
> > quality difference between the two systems. From an ease of use 
> > perspective, Paul's methodology seems easier to set up inititally.

Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-14 by daniel

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jarrrush" <johnr@v...> wrote:
> 
> I am wondering is someone can compare QTR to Paul Roark's methodology 
> of making B and W prints from both an ease of use and technical 
> standpoint (print quality as you define it).

i use an epson 2200 under OS X. i tried QTR with only moderate success. i recently 
switched to UT7 inks with the Roark curves, and i'm thrilled with the results. for me, the 
Roark approach is better in the following respects:

1. the prints look better. my QTR prints came out looking flat; the Roark ones seem to 
have more life to them. also, the UT7 inks have a lovely look to them which i find much 
more appealing than the ultrachrome inks. in bright light, the ink has a slight sparkle to it. 
nothing like a traditional darkroom print, but i love it.

2. QTR was much less reliable. i couldn't use the envelope feeder at all, which meant that i 
couldn't print on heavy papers, and often the print job would get stuck. this lack of 
reliability was almost certainly due to the gimp driver. the great advantage of the Roark 
approach is that you can use the epson driver, which despite its stupid bugs (eg, the 
failure to center prints properly), is much more reliable.

it's possible that bugs in the gimp driver were responsible for the flat look of the QTR 
prints. it might also have been my lack of experience. when i tried QTR, a few months ago, 
i didn't know how to apply S-curves properly.

/daniel

Re: [Digital BW] Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-14 by Steve Kale

In fairness to QTR you will have no problem with the rear feeder if you
follow the Epson instructions properly - it has nothing to do with QTR!  (I
have used it without problem with OS-X for two years.) The "flat look" can
be managed with an S curve in PS.  Paul effectively embeds an S curve in his
calibration of his curves.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: daniel <dnj@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:12:36 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jarrrush" <johnr@v...>
> wrote:
>> 
>> I am wondering is someone can compare QTR to Paul Roark's methodology
>> of making B and W prints from both an ease of use and technical
>> standpoint (print quality as you define it).
> 
> i use an epson 2200 under OS X. i tried QTR with only moderate success. i
> recently 
> switched to UT7 inks with the Roark curves, and i'm thrilled with the results.
> for me, the 
> Roark approach is better in the following respects:
> 
> 1. the prints look better. my QTR prints came out looking flat; the Roark ones
> seem to 
> have more life to them. also, the UT7 inks have a lovely look to them which i
> find much 
> more appealing than the ultrachrome inks. in bright light, the ink has a
> slight sparkle to it.
> nothing like a traditional darkroom print, but i love it.
> 
> 2. QTR was much less reliable. i couldn't use the envelope feeder at all,
> which meant that i
> couldn't print on heavy papers, and often the print job would get stuck. this
> lack of 
> reliability was almost certainly due to the gimp driver. the great advantage
> of the Roark 
> approach is that you can use the epson driver, which despite its stupid bugs
> (eg, the 
> failure to center prints properly), is much more reliable.
> 
> it's possible that bugs in the gimp driver were responsible for the flat look
> of the QTR 
> prints. it might also have been my lack of experience. when i tried QTR, a few
> months ago, 
> i didn't know how to apply S-curves properly.
> 
> /daniel
>

[Digital BW] Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-16 by bradmichael2003

I am fairly new to this, and have also at times felt that my QTR
prints are also a little flat looking.

Would you describe adding an S curve, in PS to help with this if you
don't mind taking the time?

Please pretend like I do not know anything, which at times feels like
a pretty accurate assessment.

Thanks!

Brad 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> In fairness to QTR you will have no problem with the rear feeder if you
> follow the Epson instructions properly - it has nothing to do with
QTR!  (I
> have used it without problem with OS-X for two years.) The "flat
look" can
> be managed with an S curve in PS.  Paul effectively embeds an S
curve in his
> calibration of his curves.
> 
> 
> > From: daniel <dnj@m...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:12:36 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jarrrush"
<johnr@v...>
> > wrote:
> >> 
> >> I am wondering is someone can compare QTR to Paul Roark's methodology
> >> of making B and W prints from both an ease of use and technical
> >> standpoint (print quality as you define it).
> > 
> > i use an epson 2200 under OS X. i tried QTR with only moderate
success. i
> > recently 
> > switched to UT7 inks with the Roark curves, and i'm thrilled with
the results.
> > for me, the 
> > Roark approach is better in the following respects:
> > 
> > 1. the prints look better. my QTR prints came out looking flat;
the Roark ones
> > seem to 
> > have more life to them. also, the UT7 inks have a lovely look to
them which i
> > find much 
> > more appealing than the ultrachrome inks. in bright light, the ink
has a
> > slight sparkle to it.
> > nothing like a traditional darkroom print, but i love it.
> > 
> > 2. QTR was much less reliable. i couldn't use the envelope feeder
at all,
> > which meant that i
> > couldn't print on heavy papers, and often the print job would get
stuck. this
> > lack of 
> > reliability was almost certainly due to the gimp driver. the great
advantage
> > of the Roark 
> > approach is that you can use the epson driver, which despite its
stupid bugs
> > (eg, the 
> > failure to center prints properly), is much more reliable.
> > 
> > it's possible that bugs in the gimp driver were responsible for
the flat look
> > of the QTR 
> > prints. it might also have been my lack of experience. when i
tried QTR, a few
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > months ago, 
> > i didn't know how to apply S-curves properly.
> > 
> > /daniel
> >

Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-16 by Andrew Unger

Brad, open a file in PS and click on either Layer/New Adjustment 
Layer/Curves or Image/Adjust/Curves and a curve box will open with a 
4x4 grid.  Where the oblique line hits the 2d and 4th (there are 5 
total) click at the intersections.  Drag the top most one slightly 
higher and the bottom one slightly lower.  Then click the preview 
checkbox once and then again.  Observe the difference in contrast.  
Then drag the points again up or down and repeat the preview.  
Repeat the process until you are pleased with the contrast.  This is 
a good way to start experimenting with curves. - Andrew


--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bradmichael2003" 
<brad@a...> wrote:
> 
> I am fairly new to this, and have also at times felt that my QTR
> prints are also a little flat looking.
> 
> Would you describe adding an S curve, in PS to help with this if 
you
> don't mind taking the time?
> 
> Please pretend like I do not know anything, which at times feels 
like
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> a pretty accurate assessment.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Brad 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.

2004-12-18 by Steve Kale

I think the major reason why QTR prints out of the box can look a little
flat is because of the combination of two key factors: (1) the relatively
weak dMax (the maximum density (or least reflectance) generated by 100%
black) of matte papers, around 1.6-7, and so the available contrast is
relatively low, and (2) the way QTR does its linearization - not that it is
necessarily wrong - one must pick a methodology - but because people don't
understand it.  The first is a fact of life, the second needs to be
understood and so compensated for if deemed necessary.

If you want to see on screen the effect this weak dMax and QTR's
linearization do the following.  Open a Gray Gamma 2.2 step wedge.  Add a
Curves Layer (Layer->New Adjustment Layer->Curves->Enter).  Grab the bottom
left anchor point and slide it up to (0,41) and grab the top right anchor
and pull it down to (255,243).  Now look at how the input/outputs for the
points in the middle have changed eg 128. For the most part, the image is
lighter because the better part of the straight line has been shifted up
(128 has gone to 142).  (Note that there is still nice visual separation
between the steps on the screen which is QTR's linearization goal.)  When
people say an image is flat it is largely, I believe, because all the
mid-tones have been brightened.

There is no getting around the low dMax short of printing to a paper or with
an ink that leads to better blacks.  So what can you do with what you are
stuck with?  Ultimately it involves compromise.  If you look at point 128 in
the curve above and trace across to its output you will see it, 142, is
halfway between 243 and 41 - input values are spread evenly over the
available output range.  If you pull 128 back down to (128,128) your
mid-tones head back towards where they were before but there is greater
compression "in the shadows" than "in the highlights".  (In essence, when
Paul is doing his curves he targets this midpoint and pulls it back a bit
leaving a little more compression in the shadows than the highlights.)  Ok
now drag the 128 point off the curves chart so that it disappears - you
should now have a straight line again.  Hit OK. Leave it visible.

Add another curves layer. Lock (128,128).  Grab (63,63) and pull it down a
little say to (63,43).  Grab (192,192) and shift it up a little say to
(192,213).  This is what is meant by an s-curve - it is shaped like an s.
You are adding a little punch to the highlights and darkening the shadows a
little without shifting the mid.  You can view the effect of the second
curve by itself by turning the visibility of the first off.  The effect on
the image though will be the two curves combined.  The selection of points
and how much to move them is really an artistic one but you have to judge
the two together which is why I said keep the first curve visible.  Note
that the first curve (a representation or simulation of what the RIP is
doing) shifted the mid up point up and the second left it the same - ie
still up.  So your mid grey will still be lighter than the original image
without the curves.  You might choose to pull the mid darker in the second
curve to counteract the effect of the RIP.  It's up to you.

If you don't use a soft-proof, adding the first curve is a good
approximation for QTR's built in transformation for printing to matte paper.
Put this curve up first, add and adjust the second so that the image looks
to your likening.  Before printing, though, delete the first curve.  You
don't want the effect to occur twice - it is already done by QTR and your
curve was there so you could see the effect on screen and so design your
adjustment curve.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: bradmichael2003 <brad@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:43:51 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: roark vs qtr - newbie q.
> 
> 
> 
> I am fairly new to this, and have also at times felt that my QTR
> prints are also a little flat looking.
> 
> Would you describe adding an S curve, in PS to help with this if you
> don't mind taking the time?
> 
> Please pretend like I do not know anything, which at times feels like
> a pretty accurate assessment.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Brad 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> In fairness to QTR you will have no problem with the rear feeder if you
>> follow the Epson instructions properly - it has nothing to do with
> QTR!  (I
>> have used it without problem with OS-X for two years.) The "flat
> look" can
>> be managed with an S curve in PS.  Paul effectively embeds an S
> curve in his
>> calibration of his curves.
>>

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