Yahoo Groups archive
Thread
2005-01-29 by fredila2
Hi, Before I waste all my Hahnemuehle Photo Rag (188), do you have a recommended "media type" and "curves" setting that produces "cool" prints using QTR? I've tried a number of combinations and get some very washed out results. I've read a number of messages on the forum about HPR but frankly I'm confused. Thanks, Fred
2005-01-29 by Martin Carrington
Fred, I'm pretty new to Inkjet Printing, but have found that you HAVE to soft proof (assuming you use Photoshop) to get a good screen to print match. Here's my workflow: 1) Edit your image with no softproofing to the desired results 2) Turn on Proofing (get the Hahnemuhule ICC profile from their web site and use this profile, use the White Paper and Black Point Comp Settings) 3) Using curves, add an 'S' curve to try to recreate your desired image 3) If using QTR try the Matte Paper and UC-PremiereFinaArt settings. I have tried a blend of 50:50 between cool amd warm This works pretty well. The image will still be softer than a glossy paper but if you mount behind glass the differences will reduce. Hope this helps Martin --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fredila2" <fred@f...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Before I waste all my Hahnemuehle Photo Rag (188), do you have a > recommended "media type" and "curves" setting that produces "cool" > prints using QTR? I've tried a number of combinations and get some
> very washed out results. > > I've read a number of messages on the forum about HPR but frankly > I'm confused. > > Thanks, > > Fred
2005-01-29 by fredila2
Martin, Thanks a whole lot. The results are much better. Your help is much appreciated. Fred --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Carrington" <martinc@s...> wrote: > > Fred, > > I'm pretty new to Inkjet Printing, but have found that you HAVE to > soft proof (assuming you use Photoshop) to get a good screen to > print match. Here's my workflow: > > 1) Edit your image with no softproofing to the desired results > 2) Turn on Proofing (get the Hahnemuhule ICC profile from their web > site and use this profile, use the White Paper and Black Point Comp > Settings) > 3) Using curves, add an 'S' curve to try to recreate your desired > image > 3) If using QTR try the Matte Paper and UC-PremiereFinaArt settings. > I have tried a blend of 50:50 between cool amd warm > > This works pretty well. The image will still be softer than a glossy > paper but if you mount behind glass the differences will reduce. > > Hope this helps > > Martin > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fredila2" > <fred@f...> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Before I waste all my Hahnemuehle Photo Rag (188), do you have a > > recommended "media type" and "curves" setting that produces "cool" > > prints using QTR? I've tried a number of combinations and get > some > > very washed out results. > > > > I've read a number of messages on the forum about HPR but frankly
> > I'm confused. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Fred
2005-01-29 by Steve Kale
Fred I would strongly suggest you move to Roy's new amended workflow. See his recent post. Download the "L" (Lab less a and b) workspace and use this as your editing space. Get the image how you like it on screen. Set up a proof using the QTR - Gray Matte Paper profile, Perceptual Intent, Use Black Point Compensation and also check Simulate Ink Black. When you print following Roy's instructions and put the Gray Matte Paper profile in the destination space instead of Same as Source, the soft proofed image on screen will be very very close to output (assuming your monitor is well-calibrated). The big issue printing to matte paper is the reduced dynamic range available vs display. Roy's icc profile amendment is a very clever way of using icc profiles to use the Perceptual colour engine to make this compression. Do this first before adjusting the image with an s curve and if you do so only do so with the soft proof that I talked about active. It goes without saying that you should be using an HPR curve for the ink set you are using (although EEM is actually not too far off). Steve
> From: fredila2 <fred@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:31:20 -0000 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR settings with Hahnemuehle Photo Rag > > > > Martin, > > Thanks a whole lot. The results are much better. Your help is much > appreciated. > > Fred > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin > Carrington" <martinc@s...> wrote: >> >> Fred, >> >> I'm pretty new to Inkjet Printing, but have found that you HAVE to >> soft proof (assuming you use Photoshop) to get a good screen to >> print match. Here's my workflow: >> >> 1) Edit your image with no softproofing to the desired results >> 2) Turn on Proofing (get the Hahnemuhule ICC profile from their > web >> site and use this profile, use the White Paper and Black Point > Comp >> Settings) >> 3) Using curves, add an 'S' curve to try to recreate your desired >> image >> 3) If using QTR try the Matte Paper and UC-PremiereFinaArt > settings. >> I have tried a blend of 50:50 between cool amd warm >> >> This works pretty well. The image will still be softer than a > glossy >> paper but if you mount behind glass the differences will reduce. >> >> Hope this helps >> >> Martin >> >> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fredila2" >> <fred@f...> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Before I waste all my Hahnemuehle Photo Rag (188), do you have a >>> recommended "media type" and "curves" setting that > produces "cool" >>> prints using QTR? I've tried a number of combinations and get >> some >>> very washed out results. >>> >>> I've read a number of messages on the forum about HPR but > frankly >>> I'm confused. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Fred
2005-01-29 by Chris Hargens
I'm not clear about this would be done on a PC. Would I first edit in the L workspace, skip the softproof, and then save the tif after converting it to the Gray Matte Paper profile, as Roys instructions seem to suggest? Or do I softproof using the Gray Matte Paper profile and THEN convert? Chris --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote: > Fred > > I would strongly suggest you move to Roy's new amended workflow. See his > recent post. Download the "L" (Lab less a and b) workspace and use this as > your editing space. Get the image how you like it on screen. Set up a > proof using the QTR - Gray Matte Paper profile, Perceptual Intent, Use Black > Point Compensation and also check Simulate Ink Black. When you print > following Roy's instructions and put the Gray Matte Paper profile in the > destination space instead of Same as Source, the soft proofed image on > screen will be very very close to output (assuming your monitor is > well-calibrated). The big issue printing to matte paper is the reduced > dynamic range available vs display. Roy's icc profile amendment is a very > clever way of using icc profiles to use the Perceptual colour engine to make > this compression. Do this first before adjusting the image with an s curve > and if you do so only do so with the soft proof that I talked about active. > > It goes without saying that you should be using an HPR curve for the ink set
> you are using (although EEM is actually not too far off). > > Steve
2005-01-29 by Steve Kale
The workflow is the same for Mac or PC except for the final output which I understand must be Tiff for PC. First of all change your workspace to QTR Gray Lab (from Gray Gamma 2.2 or whatever). With an existing image which is tagged gray gamma 2.2 you need to decide right from the beginning of the new workflow whether to "convert to" or to "assign" QTR Gray LAB. Roy outlines the difference in his instructions and so there is no need for me to repeat here but if you have an image which you already liked the look of on screen before then "convert" it to the new space (it will now be tagged QTR Gray Lab). Edit if need be to get an on screen image you want. So now you have your generic image - before paper specific factors. Now look at the image with either a Photo Paper soft proof or a Matte Paper soft proof as I described. What you are looking at now is pretty much how the final image will be printed with respect to illuminance, not hue. We tend to focus on illuminance and so this is ok - we already know if we want it warm or cold etc. Make any paper specific changes and print in the normal fashion (presumably saving it as a tiff if that is required). Just don't overwrite the "generic" image because you may want to print on Photo paper later for example and don't want any matte paper specific changes to flow through.
> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:03:12 -0000 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: QTR settings with Hahnemuehle Photo Rag > > > > I'm not clear about this would be done on a PC. Would I first edit in > the L workspace, skip the softproof, and then save the tif after > converting it to the Gray Matte Paper profile, as Roys instructions > seem to suggest? Or do I softproof using the Gray Matte Paper profile > and THEN convert? > > Chris
2005-01-29 by Tim Atherton
> It goes without saying that you should be using an HPR curve for > the ink set > you are using (although EEM is actually not too far off). > > Steve > which you can't do on a 2200... tim a
2005-01-29 by Tim Atherton
Now look at the image > with either a Photo Paper soft proof or a Matte Paper soft proof as I > described. What you are looking at now is pretty much how the final image > will be printed with respect to illuminance, not hue. We tend to focus on > illuminance and so this is ok - we already know if we want it warm or cold > etc. Make any paper specific changes and print in the normal fashion > (presumably saving it as a tiff if that is required). Just don't > overwrite > the "generic" image because you may want to print on Photo paper later for > example and don't want any matte paper specific changes to flow through. > and what space do you save it as? QTR grey lab? QTR Matte? Gamma 2.2? Because you can't specify those at the printing stage - it's whatever he file is tagged with. tim
2005-01-29 by Steve Kale
Tim I am not sure what you are talking about. When you either assign or convert a file to QTR Gray Lab it is tagged as this and this is what you want. The whole point is that you want to edit in QTR Gray Lab and have your files tagged and saved as QTR Gray Lab. You then use the PS colour engine to convert the file on the fly at the point of printing (a la a colour workflow) to either the QTR Matte Paper or QTR Photo Paper profile (depending on the paper you are printing to) using Perceptual Intent and Black Point Compensation. This is just as with colour work. PS therefore uses Perceptual intent to manage the compression of the tonal range from image or file to the print (matte or photo) space which has previously been linearized. This is the object of the exercise and unless you are telling me that your PC does not have the Perceptual intent which I am sure it does then you should be able to do it just like colour work. And to your earlier post, if there has not been an HPR curve made available to PC users then I am sorry. They are easy to construct for a Mac and presumably at some point someone ported a bunch of profiles over. HPR and EEM are very similar and almost substitutable. The issue people are grappling with is not the minor differences between HPR and EEM but the major issue of tonal range compression from file to matte (any matte) paper. This is what Roy's latest addition does. Rather than ad hoc s curve adjustments he uses the Perceptual colour engine to do the job. Take a look at Roy's (Mac and PC) instructions and give it a go. Steve
> From: Tim Atherton <timatherton@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:25:21 -0700 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR settings with Hahnemuehle Photo Rag > > > Now look at the image >> with either a Photo Paper soft proof or a Matte Paper soft proof as I >> described. What you are looking at now is pretty much how the final image >> will be printed with respect to illuminance, not hue. We tend to focus on >> illuminance and so this is ok - we already know if we want it warm or cold >> etc. Make any paper specific changes and print in the normal fashion >> (presumably saving it as a tiff if that is required). Just don't >> overwrite >> the "generic" image because you may want to print on Photo paper later for >> example and don't want any matte paper specific changes to flow through. >> > > and what space do you save it as? QTR grey lab? QTR Matte? Gamma 2.2? > Because you can't specify those at the printing stage - it's whatever he > file is tagged with. > > tim
2005-01-29 by Steve Kale
Of course you can. The issue is not the 2200. I use HPR curves with a 21/2200 without issue. Maybe the issue is Mac vs PC in that you can not yet construct your own curves with a PC. In this case use EEM curves as they are for all practical purposes close enough. See my other post. Steve
> From: Tim Atherton <timatherton@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:20:53 -0700 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR settings with Hahnemuehle Photo Rag > > > >> It goes without saying that you should be using an HPR curve for >> the ink set >> you are using (although EEM is actually not too far off). >> >> Steve >> > > which you can't do on a 2200... > > > tim a >
2005-01-29 by Tim Atherton
> > Tim > > I am not sure what you are talking about. When you either assign > or convert > a file to QTR Gray Lab it is tagged as this and this is what you > want. The > whole point is that you want to edit in QTR Gray Lab and have your files > tagged and saved as QTR Gray Lab. You then use the PS colour engine to > convert the file on the fly at the point of printing (a la a colour > workflow) to either the QTR Matte Paper or QTR Photo Paper profile > (depending on the paper you are printing to) using Perceptual Intent and > Black Point Compensation. if you are using QTR PC you don't use Photoshop for printing - you can't convert anything on the fly at the point of printing - which was my point. You can't edit the file in the QTR LAB Grey then assign a profile at the point of printing. Everything has to be done when the file is saved - hence my question (and Chris's I believe) > presumably at some point someone ported a bunch of profiles over. HPR and > EEM are very similar and almost substitutable. Actually there are significant differences in the way HPR and EEM print tim
2005-01-29 by Tim Atherton
> Of course you can. The issue is not the 2200. I use HPR curves with a > 21/2200 without issue. Maybe the issue is Mac vs PC in that you > can not yet > construct your own curves with a PC. In this case use EEM curves as they > are for all practical purposes close enough. See my other post. Again - that was my point -t here are as yet no HPR curves for the PC version
2005-01-29 by Steve Kale
OK got you. Then edit as discussed. Soft proof as discussed. Prior to saving as a tiff for printing, convert to profile QTR Photo or Matte depending on media using Perceptual and Black point compensation, save as tiff - now you have a QTR Matte (or Photo) tagged file. If you are stuck on the Windoze platform and have no other choice EEM curves are very close to HPR. Most of us use EEM for proofing. The linearisation will be off but not too badly - dMax and dMin are not massively different. The bigger issue (and the one I think most users struggle with) is how to manage the big tonal compression and it is Roy's addition that gets this done well. Presumably someone, Roy?, ported the existing profiles that were in circulation for beginner Mac users over to the Windoze platform. Given HPR profiles exist for Mac users perhaps if you asked nicely that person will port them over for PC users. Cheers Steve
> From: Tim Atherton <timatherton@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:01:24 -0700 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR settings with Hahnemuehle Photo Rag > > > >> >> Tim >> >> I am not sure what you are talking about. When you either assign >> or convert >> a file to QTR Gray Lab it is tagged as this and this is what you >> want. The >> whole point is that you want to edit in QTR Gray Lab and have your files >> tagged and saved as QTR Gray Lab. You then use the PS colour engine to >> convert the file on the fly at the point of printing (a la a colour >> workflow) to either the QTR Matte Paper or QTR Photo Paper profile >> (depending on the paper you are printing to) using Perceptual Intent and >> Black Point Compensation. > > if you are using QTR PC you don't use Photoshop for printing - you can't > convert anything on the fly at the point of printing - which was my point. > > You can't edit the file in the QTR LAB Grey then assign a profile at the > point of printing. Everything has to be done when the file is saved - hence > my question (and Chris's I believe) > >> presumably at some point someone ported a bunch of profiles over. HPR and >> EEM are very similar and almost substitutable. > > Actually there are significant differences in the way HPR and EEM print > > tim > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership > without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the > membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND > „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
2005-01-29 by Steve Kale
Your original post made no reference to PC vs Mac but rather mentioned the 2200 printer.
> From: Tim Atherton <timatherton@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:03:07 -0700 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QTR settings with Hahnemuehle Photo Rag > > > >> Of course you can. The issue is not the 2200. I use HPR curves with a >> 21/2200 without issue. Maybe the issue is Mac vs PC in that you >> can not yet >> construct your own curves with a PC. In this case use EEM curves as they >> are for all practical purposes close enough. See my other post. > > Again - that was my point -t here are as yet no HPR curves for the PC > version >
2005-01-31 by koloshor
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote: > OK got you. Then edit as discussed. Soft proof as discussed. Prior to > saving as a tiff for printing, convert to profile QTR Photo or Matte > depending on media using Perceptual and Black point compensation, save as > tiff - now you have a QTR Matte (or Photo) tagged file. > > If you are stuck on the Windoze platform and have no other choice EEM curves > are very close to HPR. In a very short while, it's the Mac users who are going to feel "stuck" ;) ;) Steve Billard is adding GUI curve generation to QTRgui. I'm building a neat curve generator that can do curves for QTR, as well as N-channel ICM profiles (N being as high as 16) for another printing application (tease, tease) as well as converting from QTR curves to N-channel ICM and back. Right now, it's likely Steve Billard's will be debuting sooner. I don't know if he's planning on doing anything for the Mac. All my stuff is in wxWindows, and could (theoretically) compile for a Mac, but I'm only releasing Windows and Linux at this time. > Most of us use EEM for proofing. The linearisation > will be off but not too badly - dMax and dMin are not massively different. > The bigger issue (and the one I think most users struggle with) is how to > manage the big tonal compression and it is Roy's addition that gets this > done well. Presumably someone, Roy?, ported the existing profiles that were > in circulation for beginner Mac users over to the Windoze platform. Given > HPR profiles exist for Mac users perhaps if you asked nicely that person > will port them over for PC users. By "porting", do you mean fixing the ridiculous Mac carriage returns on a text editor?
2005-01-31 by john dean
Well - as graphics professionals we will never be "stuck". Microsoft belongs in the offices of accountants and typists. Windows is a disgrace for graphics, and should be eliminated from the face of the earth, forever and ever, amen. Do you see them producing high-end cinema animation like Lord of the Rings on Windows 2000 or NT, hell no. That would be retarded. They do that on a G5. We're not going anywhere.
2005-01-31 by koloshor
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > Well - as graphics professionals we will never be "stuck". Microsoft belongs in the offices > of accountants and typists. Actually, that's why Apple created "Lisa", the first predecessor to the Mac, and gave it a GUI and a mouse. It was designed to be the ultimate spreadsheet machine for high power accountants and financiers. The DTP was just for pretty financial reports. The fact that the machine failed miserably in its target market, and went on to find widespread acceptance in the graphics arts community, surprised the heck out of Apple. > Windows is a disgrace for graphics, and should be eliminated > from the face of the earth, forever and ever, amen. Do you see them producing high-end > cinema animation like Lord of the Rings on Windows 2000 or NT, hell no. Actually, they seldom allow Macs near anything as important as major movie visuals. WETA, who won the Academy Award for Best Visual Effects for LOTR, created the animation on a network of SGI Octane workstations, and rendered them on.... 3200 PCs, in rack after rack of blades. > That would be > retarded. Mirror, mirror, on the wall... > They do that on a G5. We're not going anywhere. You're quite right. You're not going... anywhere... ever. Seriously, I've found the majority of Mac users are decent people. It's amazing how one bad apple (or one opinionated Apple user) can spoil a whole bunch of good. Ciao! Joe
2005-01-31 by Tom Husband
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > I can see you never used a G5 with a 8 gigs of ram for photo applications or you won't > even think like that. And LOTRings animation was created with a room full of G5's because > I saw the film showing them do it. Not that I care about Hollywood. > > Steve Jobs never saw the Mac as an office machine. That is why he hated IBM drones > looking for employment in his engineering departments. And, it is still true that Windows > is a cheap and sad imitation of of the Mac interface. And all the PC laptops suck as well. What does this have to do with QTR settings and photo rag? It's a no win argument. Can we drop it? Thanks, Tom
2005-01-31 by Bob Frost
John, Those are probably the sort of comments that the dinosaurs made to one another many years ago! Variety is the spice of life, and without it there would be no evolution. Bob Frost
----- Original Message ----- From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> Well - as graphics professionals we will never be "stuck". Microsoft belongs in the offices of accountants and typists. Windows is a disgrace for graphics, and should be eliminated from the face of the earth, forever and ever, amen. Do you see them producing high-end cinema animation like Lord of the Rings on Windows 2000 or NT, hell no. That would be retarded. They do that on a G5. We're not going anywhere.