Digital BW, The Print

In this forum:

http://forums.naturephotographers.net/eve/ubb.x?
a=tpc&s=8306088241&f=25110141&m=7850046292

that we are doing so called "fake" black & white with our printing. 
What are your thoughts?

Explain yourself please.
Mark

To me it's an art in a different form and it's the final results 
that's counts. And it's also the phase to go digital (as you can see 
Iford's B&W division is gone), that's why I bought a C86 and learn to 
do it right.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:
> Explain yourself please.
> Mark

Not true, I am a dealer, I would know.
Mark

On Feb 4, 2005, at 3:00 PM, John wrote:

> as you can see
>  Iford's B&W division is gone

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I maybe not very well-informed but this was what I read;

http://www.managementconsultancy.co.uk/news/1137978
http://www.ukbusinesspark.co.uk/ilg44841.htm
http://www.photoscala.com/node/view/285
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1289418,00.html
http://nonblog.typepad.com/the_nonbloggish_blog/2004/08/not_all_black_
a.html

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:

> Not true, I am a dealer, I would know.
> Mark
> 
> On Feb 4, 2005, at 3:00 PM, John wrote:
> 
> > as you can see
> >  Iford's B&W division is gone
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The films will not be made anymore, graded b&w papers will not be made 
anymore, certain b&w chemicals will not be made anymore, but RC and 
fiber papers will. All equipment will not be made anymore and no more 
equipment service. The digital division remains unchanged except they 
dropped their Studio digital printing solution setup. Very few reps 
left, slow turnaround on orders, but not gone, close - but not GONE.
Mark

On Feb 4, 2005, at 3:38 PM, John wrote:

>
>  I maybe not very well-informed but this was what I read;
>
> http://www.managementconsultancy.co.uk/news/1137978
> http://www.ukbusinesspark.co.uk/ilg44841.htm
> http://www.photoscala.com/node/view/285
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1289418,00.html
> http://nonblog.typepad.com/the_nonbloggish_blog/2004/08/not_all_black_
>  a.html
>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
>  <mark@c...> wrote:
>  > Not true, I am a dealer, I would know.
>  > Mark
>  >
>  > On Feb 4, 2005, at 3:00 PM, John wrote:
>  >
>  > > as you can see
>  > >� Iford's B&W division is gone
>  >
>  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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>
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> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� 
> AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
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> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John writes: 

> What are your thoughts?

i think that a desaturated print is a 'black and white print' becuase it 
doesnt have any color. I have printed them and shown them and people like 
them. 

I also think that the best inkjet black and white prints still do not come 
close to the depth and richness of a tray processed fiber-based print from 
well-exposed black and white film. There is still a big difference. 

 -scott 

Scott F. Lanes Photography
 http://www.Lanes.com

Scott,
Are you sure you have seen a properly printed piezography print?
Mark

On Feb 4, 2005, at 4:01 PM, scott@... wrote:

>  I also think that the best inkjet black and white prints still do not 
> come
>  close to the depth and richness of a tray processed fiber-based print 
> from
>  well-exposed black and white film. There is still a big difference.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been a zone system b&w printer for almost 40
years.I agree with what you said.It time to go
digital.Ansel Adams would have gone digital 5 years
ago.Digital prints are not darkroom prints,there
digital prints,different.It is very possible to get hi
Dmax with inkjet printers.The results are very good
and the power of photoshop make it a no
brainier.Francis Ford
--- John <firewoodtech@...> wrote:

> 
> To me it's an art in a different form and it's the
> final results 
> that's counts. And it's also the phase to go digital
> (as you can see 
> Iford's B&W division is gone), that's why I bought a
> C86 and learn to 
> do it right.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> Mark Savoia 
> <mark@c...> wrote:
> > Explain yourself please.
> > Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 


		
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I've been a large format "zone system" printer for  30 years myself and when I hear people 
complain about pigment inkjet prints not being of substantial richness compared to 
gelatin silver it usually means they don't  know how to control or set up a good digital 
workflow. This was also said about color digital a few years ago, that it wasn't "real" 
photography and never would be. Almost always the problem was with scans that were 
done with amateur scanning equipment or by individuals that hadn't mastered the 
technology. 

Actually when A. Adams visited us at the University Of Arizona in the late 70's he told us 
students that we would all be doing digital printing soon and that it would out class 
anything he was able to do using those cancer causing chemicals. Not only that but he was 
so convinced that digital was going to be superior that he put in the contract with the 
Center For Creative Photography archive where he left his negatives and master prints, 
that we students would be be encouraged to take his negatives and "translate" them into 
prints using the digital technology that was soon to come after his death.  He was right 
but he would have been very surprised that it took us this long to get monochrome right. 
And, it will get better yet. That generation, if they had lived long enough, would be leading 
the charge away from the poisons and the 19th centrury tonal analogue limitiations. 
Digital and pigment isn't the same as g.silver, its better. Like photograhy isn't art, its 
better. Baudelaire wrote whole essays on how photography was "fake" art and should be 
shunned by the whole art establishment. Now people want to do the same with digital. 
History repeats itself. They did the same with electronic music in the 80's. We're bored.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John"
<firewoodtech@y...> wrote:
> 
> In this forum:
> 
> http://forums.naturephotographers.net/eve/ubb.x?
> a=tpc&s=8306088241&f=25110141&m=7850046292
> 
> that we are doing so called "fake" black & white with our printing. 
> What are your thoughts?

Yes, your lead is very misleading. No they are not calling it fake
B&w.  Please read the different posts at naturephotographers. 

One guy said responding to another who had no clue what he was talking
about: "It think it's an image desaturated in Photoshop". 
 They did not know what they were taling about and those in the know
set them straight! End of story.

André

Dean-

I enjoyed reading your post; interesting stuff. I would only add that in a 
long conversation with Adams in the early 80's, we spent several hours talking 
about Stieglitz's theory of equivalency, how that related to the zone system, 
and the coming era of digital printing. What was so amazing for me, and what 
keeps me fascinated to this day, is how he wove these together into a single 
fabric: photography.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John" <firewoodtech@y...> 
wrote:

> that we are doing so called "fake" black & white with our printing. 
> What are your thoughts?


I suppose that any 2-dimensional representation of a "real" scene can be considered fake. 
Sometimes I even wonder about the reality of the original scene.

Doug N

Thank you, Lisa. The sooner the better.

 

  _____  

From: Andre [mailto:am1000@...] 
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 5:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: "Fake" Black & White

 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John"
<firewoodtech@y...> wrote:
> 
> In this forum:
> 
> http://forums.naturephotographers.net/eve/ubb.x?
> a=tpc&s=8306088241&f=25110141&m=7850046292
> 
> that we are doing so called "fake" black & white with our printing. 
> What are your thoughts?

Yes, your lead is very misleading. No they are not calling it fake
B&w.  Please read the different posts at naturephotographers. 

One guy said responding to another who had no clue what he was talking
about: "It think it's an image desaturated in Photoshop". 
They did not know what they were taling about and those in the know
set them straight! End of story.

André









Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am not trying to mislead here if you read the subject header in 
that forum; it said 'Are those fake black and white', I am merely 
using the same phrase.

Anyway my objective is to hear others opinion, it's maybe pro or 
against. Only after years ahead, I maybe laughing at what I have said 
before therefore one should not be to hot-headed, it's just a 
discussion. 

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre" 
<am1000@v...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John"
> <firewoodtech@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > In this forum:
> > 
> > http://forums.naturephotographers.net/eve/ubb.x?
> > a=tpc&s=8306088241&f=25110141&m=7850046292
> > 
> > that we are doing so called "fake" black & white with our 
printing. 
> > What are your thoughts?
> 
> Yes, your lead is very misleading. No they are not calling it fake
> B&w.  Please read the different posts at naturephotographers. 
> 
> One guy said responding to another who had no clue what he was 
talking

> about: "It think it's an image desaturated in Photoshop". 
>  They did not know what they were taling about and those in the know
> set them straight! End of story.
> 
> André

> The films will not be made anymore, graded b&w papers will not be made
> anymore, certain b&w chemicals will not be made anymore, but RC and
> fiber papers will. All equipment will not be made anymore and no more
> equipment service. The digital division remains unchanged except they
> dropped their Studio digital printing solution setup. Very few reps
> left, slow turnaround on orders, but not gone, close - but not GONE.
> Mark

Ilford is making and shipping film again, including sheet film. Many of the
chemicals are being made again (but are mainly being outsourced).

tim a

I am a dealer and can not order films anymore, our rep says they are 
history. Is it possible you are getting what is left on shelves?
Mark

On Feb 5, 2005, at 1:11 AM, Tim Atherton wrote:

>
>  > The films will not be made anymore, graded b&w papers will not be 
> made
>  > anymore, certain b&w chemicals will not be made anymore, but RC and
>  > fiber papers will. All equipment will not be made anymore and no 
> more
>  > equipment service. The digital division remains unchanged except 
> they
>  > dropped their Studio digital printing solution setup. Very few reps
>  > left, slow turnaround on orders, but not gone, close - but not GONE.
>  > Mark
>
>  Ilford is making and shipping film again, including sheet film. Many 
> of the
>  chemicals are being made again (but are mainly being outsourced).
>
>  tim a
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� 
> AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> 	� 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> �
> 	� 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> �
> 	� 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
>
>  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
> I am a dealer and can not order films anymore, our rep says they are 
> history. Is it possible you are getting what is left on shelves?
> Mark
> 
Locally, the two photo stores have stopped carrying medium format
films and space devoted to film related items has shrunk considerably.
Even the staff has been renewed and the last time I asked for mf films
the younger salesperson did not have a clue as to what I was talking
about!!!

André Moreau

Three years ago,in a real camera store,I asked a young
salesperson for some 2 1/4 Tri-X,he said to me"let me
look that up", Of course the film was and is still
being made, but the hand writing was on the wall.Now
the big C-41 wedding lab in town is about done.Last
summer while teaching a photography class at a local
collage,I was holding a roll of 35mm film in my hand
and a young guy said,whats that? I am quit surprised
that cut film is hard to get.I am even more surprised
that company's like Epson are still coming out with
new scanners.Its a schizophrenic world.Francis Ford
--- Andre <am1000@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> Mark Savoia
> <mark@c...> wrote:
> > I am a dealer and can not order films anymore, our
> rep says they are 
> > history. Is it possible you are getting what is
> left on shelves?
> > Mark
> > 
> Locally, the two photo stores have stopped carrying
> medium format
> films and space devoted to film related items has
> shrunk considerably.
> Even the staff has been renewed and the last time I
> asked for mf films
> the younger salesperson did not have a clue as to
> what I was talking
> about!!!
> 
> Andr\ufffd Moreau
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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> I am a dealer and can not order films anymore, our rep says they are
> history. Is it possible you are getting what is left on shelves?
> Mark

Ilford is producing and shipping new stick under the Administrator. Since
that happened last year some time we have no real difficulty getting Ilford
products (including 5x7 and 8x10 sheet film). Some of it may have been
warehouse stock, but they were certainly in production as I understood it.

I believe Ilford Canada got a big shipment by sea late last year

Word should be out soon about whether a buyout deal has gone ahead, and on
what terms. But in the meantime, Ilford is producing products.

tim a

> Ilford is producing and shipping new stick under the Administrator. Since

 New stick... hmmm new stock

As I mentioned previously for those who didn't seem aware of the 
facts of the situtation. Ilford (mainly the film and paper products)
has been up and running under the adminsitrator for some time now, 
shipping products.

Inkjet products were nto as effected.

The new company Ilford Photo will now carry forward the work of the 
company using the Mobberly plant following a successful management 
buyout.

Ilford are most certainly NOT history