Digital BW, The Print

I have been using QTR for a couple of months now and I am thoroughly 
impressed with most all its attributes.  I am running it on my 7600UC and on 
my 'experimental' 1280 with the UT-2 CIS inkset.  I am on a PC, XP Home 
Edition operating system.  Certainly Roy Harrington and Stephen Billard 
deserve great credit for their excellent work ... so too this forum, where 
one can always count on 'active' response.

I do however have a few concerns.  As I understand the history of QTR, Roy 
first developed it for Mac and then Stephen added the QTR-gui which along 
with some updates from Roy made the product useable on PC.  However, while 
there have been several suggestions regarding the imminent arrival of a new 
PC version which would incorporate 'profiling capability' for the PC 
platform, nothing has transpired yet.  Roy has also posted some new lab 
color space profiles which as I understand it (?) are intended to help with 
soft proofing (but is this the case for both Mac and PC?).  In any event, I 
have not been able to figure out how to do soft proofing on my PC operating 
system.

With the above as background, I examined the images I was printing with QTR 
and noted that they most always printed quite a bit darker than displayed on 
my Artisan monitor.  In addition, the shadow values are tight and lack 
separation. I started to look at the 21-step wedges I was printing along 
with my images.  Using my i1 spectro to measure, I discovered that the step 
wedges, while absent any color cast were not linear, and they do (not 
surprisingly) show lack of separation in the shadows.  For example, printing 
with MK on the 7600UC upon Ultrasmooth (using the EEM, neutral profile) gave 
the following luminance results: 100%(black)-19, 90%-23, 80%-27, 70%-32, 
60%-37, 50%-42, 40%-49, 30%-58, 20%-70, 10%-82, 0%-98.  I can use these 
values to construct a 'curves adjustment layer' to 'soft proof' my images, 
and was able to develop another 'curves adjustment layer' that delivered 
better separation in the shadows.  (The 'optimized' curves produces the 
following results: 100%(black)-20, 90%-26, 80%-32, 70%-39 60%-49, 50%-59, 
40%-68, 30%-75, 20%-83, 10%-92, 0%-98).

I would very much like some feedback on what the many more experienced users 
are finding along these lines.  Are my results valid?  Am I right to be 
looking for more linearity than I see in my step wedges? Is there a 
procedure to use Roy's lab color space for soft proofing on a PC?  Does 
anyone (especially Roy, Stephen or Lou) have thoughts as to when profiling 
capability will be added for PC users?

I appreciate this forum and its wisdom immensely, and it is surely wonderful 
to see the improvements in B&W printing that have come about as a result of 
its collective contributions.

Fred Drury,
Markland Imaging

Hello Fred, 

 
>

I take it your monitor is calibrated using some kind of device and 
software combination. This is a must to produce consistent and 
predictable results from any workflow. Go to 
www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black Point/White Point 
information for the printer. Do the procedure to determine what Black 
Point is needed to allow you to print a full tonal ranged image, and 
then do the procedure for the White Point to do the same thing. You 
may be surprised what this simple procedure can do for your printing 
results. I found that I had been using the Zero point to indicate my 
black point and after doing the BP/WP I now use BP=19 and WP=252. Do 
this test on all the types of paper you use.
 

Roy has created a gray working space to enable softproofing from the 
working gray workspace. Download from Roy's website the two QTR-Gray 
Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you have image ready to 
convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to profile and choose 
the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it to Gray Lab; 
convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final access to your soft 
proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be done to the image 
before saving and printing. The results from the BP/WP testing can be 
put into a curve that can be applied to the Grayscale image (Gray Lab 
or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image will print with the 
minimum amout of ink to show total black on the paper used and the 
maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope your results will 
please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I followed this system.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

Like Fred, I don't fully understand soft-proofing on a PC either.  I
didn't think that the new profiles solved that problem on a PC.  I 
thought that what they did was solve the problem of "linearising", and
thereby solved the problem of compression in the darker tones, and
images looking a little dark & flat.  Even using the profiles, I still
find my images a little dark, and have to use some of the controls in
QTRGui(ink limit adjustment and gamma adjustment) to lighten things up
a bit.  Maybe I need to check the black and white points on my 2100.

If I've misunderstood something, happy to stand corrected.

F_P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> 
> Hello Fred, 
> 
> I take it your monitor is calibrated using some kind of device and 
> software combination. This is a must to produce consistent and 
> predictable results from any workflow. Go to 
> www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black Point/White Point 
> information for the printer. Do the procedure to determine what
Black 
> Point is needed to allow you to print a full tonal ranged image,
and 
> then do the procedure for the White Point to do the same thing. You 
> may be surprised what this simple procedure can do for your
printing 
> results. I found that I had been using the Zero point to indicate
my 
> black point and after doing the BP/WP I now use BP=19 and WP=252.
Do 
> this test on all the types of paper you use.
>  
> 
> Roy has created a gray working space to enable softproofing from
the 
> working gray workspace. Download from Roy's website the two
QTR-Gray 
> Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you have image ready
to 
> convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to profile and
choose 
> the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it to Gray Lab; 
> convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final access to your
soft 
> proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be done to the image 
> before saving and printing. The results from the BP/WP testing can
be 
> put into a curve that can be applied to the Grayscale image (Gray
Lab 
> or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image will print with
the 
> minimum amout of ink to show total black on the paper used and the 
> maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope your results will 
> please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I followed this
system.

> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny

Ferdinand ...

I do use Roy's 'QTR-Gray Lab' space and it is in that space that I am
producing the distinctly nonlinear luminance results I reported in my
earlier post. You make a good point about the use of the 'Ink Limit'
and 'Gamma' controls.  However, what I think should be the primary
objective is to have a profile that delivers the widest tonal scale
for the ink/paper/printer combination and is linear throughout its
range.  Then the 'Ink Limit' and 'Gamma' controls would allow us to
exercise creative departure from the profiles basic starting point.

Thanks for your response to my post.

Fred Drury,
Markland Imaging.
 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris"
<ferdinand_paris@y...> wrote:

> 
> Like Fred, I don't fully understand soft-proofing on a PC either.  I
> didn't think that the new profiles solved that problem on a PC.  I 
> thought that what they did was solve the problem of "linearising", and
> thereby solved the problem of compression in the darker tones, and
> images looking a little dark & flat.  Even using the profiles, I still
> find my images a little dark, and have to use some of the controls in
> QTRGui(ink limit adjustment and gamma adjustment) to lighten things up
> a bit.  Maybe I need to check the black and white points on my 2100.
> 
> If I've misunderstood something, happy to stand corrected.
> 
> F_P
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hello Fred, 
> > 
> > I take it your monitor is calibrated using some kind of device and 
> > software combination. This is a must to produce consistent and 
> > predictable results from any workflow. Go to 
> > www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black Point/White Point 
> > information for the printer. Do the procedure to determine what
> Black 
> > Point is needed to allow you to print a full tonal ranged image,
> and 
> > then do the procedure for the White Point to do the same thing. You 
> > may be surprised what this simple procedure can do for your
> printing 
> > results. I found that I had been using the Zero point to indicate
> my 
> > black point and after doing the BP/WP I now use BP=19 and WP=252.
> Do 
> > this test on all the types of paper you use.
> >  
> > 
> > Roy has created a gray working space to enable softproofing from
> the 
> > working gray workspace. Download from Roy's website the two
> QTR-Gray 
> > Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you have image ready
> to 
> > convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to profile and
> choose 
> > the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it to Gray Lab; 
> > convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final access to your
> soft 
> > proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be done to the image 
> > before saving and printing. The results from the BP/WP testing can
> be 
> > put into a curve that can be applied to the Grayscale image (Gray
> Lab 
> > or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image will print with
> the 
> > minimum amout of ink to show total black on the paper used and the 
> > maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope your results will 
> > please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I followed this
> system.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny

Johnny ...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

The Sony Artisan monitor comes with a calibration sensor which is
connected to the computer in the standard manner.  In addition, it has
another USB feedback cable that runs from the computer to the monitor.
 The idea is to 'feedback' information regarding the performance of
the monitor during calibration, from the computer to the monitor, and
automatically make appropriate changes to the monitors setup in order
to optimize its performance.  The software/hardware combination is
'Sony proprietary' and is designed to take full advantage of Sony's
knowledge of their monitor's circuitry.  One runs the calibration
procedure a minimum of once a month.

I use a procedure very similar to the Zuber procedure you reference.
The luminance vaules I reported are 'L' values.  For example the black
point QTR is delivering on the Ultrasmooth paper is 19 on the
Luminance scale, which corresponds to about 49,49,49 on the RGB scale
and that's a lot higher than the Black Point for this paper!

Without question, using QTR has banished the dreaded color casts,
which are now history.  However, I do not think I am getting all of
the potential tonality out of the paper, nor is the result linear(with
'0' settings on the 'Ink Limit' and 'Gamma' sliders).  My objective is
a profile (on a PC system) that both maximizes and linearizes tonal
scale for each paper/ink/printer combination I use.  While QTR is a
quantum improvement, I have not been able to accomplish this
aforementioned objective.

Thanks for your response to my post.

Fred Drury,
Markland Imaging.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
<jeades1@s...> wrote:

> 
> Hello Fred, 
> 
>  
> >
> 
> I take it your monitor is calibrated using some kind of device and 
> software combination. This is a must to produce consistent and 
> predictable results from any workflow. Go to 
> www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black Point/White Point 
> information for the printer. Do the procedure to determine what Black 
> Point is needed to allow you to print a full tonal ranged image, and 
> then do the procedure for the White Point to do the same thing. You 
> may be surprised what this simple procedure can do for your printing 
> results. I found that I had been using the Zero point to indicate my 
> black point and after doing the BP/WP I now use BP=19 and WP=252. Do 
> this test on all the types of paper you use.
>  
> 
> Roy has created a gray working space to enable softproofing from the 
> working gray workspace. Download from Roy's website the two QTR-Gray 
> Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you have image ready to 
> convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to profile and choose 
> the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it to Gray Lab; 
> convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final access to your soft 
> proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be done to the image 
> before saving and printing. The results from the BP/WP testing can be 
> put into a curve that can be applied to the Grayscale image (Gray Lab 
> or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image will print with the 
> minimum amout of ink to show total black on the paper used and the 
> maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope your results will 
> please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I followed this system.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny

Johnny,
The method you describe certainly works, but it can be even more streamlined. If 
you generally use the "Gray Lab" for your B&W work, you can just change your gray 
settings in the Photoshop "Color Settings" area to "Gray Lab." Then you won't even 
have to bother with the Convert to profile step. As soon as you're in grayscale, 
you're in Gray Lab. The end results should be the same.
Sarah
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@s...> wrote:

> 
>snip> 
> Roy has created a gray working space to enable softproofing from the 
> working gray workspace. Download from Roy's website the two QTR-Gray 
> Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you have image ready to 
> convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to profile and choose 
> the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it to Gray Lab; 
> convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final access to your soft 
> proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be done to the image 
> before saving and printing. The results from the BP/WP testing can be 
> put into a curve that can be applied to the Grayscale image (Gray Lab 
> or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image will print with the 
> minimum amout of ink to show total black on the paper used and the 
> maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope your results will 
> please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I followed this system.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny

Sarah,

With PSCS on XPpro, the GrayLab space shows up in the
list for image>mode>convert but doesn't under "Color
Settings". Is there someplace else I have to copy the
GrayLab file to in order to make it show up in the
"Color Settings" list?

Guy
--- jessupsa <sjessup@...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Johnny,
> The method you describe certainly works, but it can
> be even more streamlined. If 
> you generally use the "Gray Lab" for your B&W work,
> you can just change your gray 
> settings in the Photoshop "Color Settings" area to
> "Gray Lab." Then you won't even 
> have to bother with the Convert to profile step. As
> soon as you're in grayscale, 
> you're in Gray Lab. The end results should be the
> same.
> Sarah
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "Johnny Eades" 
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > 
> >snip> 
> > Roy has created a gray working space to enable
> softproofing from the 
> > working gray workspace. Download from Roy's
> website the two QTR-Gray 
> > Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you
> have image ready to 
> > convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to
> profile and choose 
> > the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it
> to Gray Lab; 
> > convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final
> access to your soft 
> > proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be
> done to the image 
> > before saving and printing. The results from the
> BP/WP testing can be 
> > put into a curve that can be applied to the
> Grayscale image (Gray Lab 
> > or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image
> will print with the 
> > minimum amout of ink to show total black on the
> paper used and the 
> > maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope
> your results will 
> > please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I
> followed this system.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> ... Go to > www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black
> Point/White Point > information for the printer. Do the procedure 
> to determine what Black > Point is needed to allow you to print 
> a full tonal ranged image, and then do the procedure for the 
> White Point to do the same thing. You may be surprised what this
>  simple procedure can do for your printing results. I found that 
> I had been using the Zero point to indicate my black point and 
> after doing the BP/WP I now use BP=19 and WP=252. Do this test 
> on all the types of paper you use.
>  

I checked out the zuberphotographics pages you reference. 
Interesting.

I have a longstanding point of confusion over whether I should 
be setting the output sliders for black and white point (I always
leave them at 0/255). This has only gotten worse with the advent of 
QTR and IJC. Both those systems allow you to calibrate the point 
at which each ink maxes out on the paper, and also to linearize a
profile. Doesn't that mean that one would always leave the 
output sliders at 0/255? Ie, doesn't the IJC/QTR curve already 
perform this function?

-david

Hello David,

When you mention "max out" you are on the right track. The ink that 
is laid down will reach a point the paper can not any longer absorb, 
but will be laid down on top of the absorbed ink. This can cause a 
sheen to appear when you hold it so the light can reflect off. When 
you run the black point test strip, there will be one section of all 
the black sections that will let you see a recognizable difference 
from the one just before and just after it. That is the BLACK POINT 
the paper can no longer handle any more ink. It is the maximum black 
that ink/paper combination will handle. Mine happened at 19 for the 
black and 253 for the white. I'm still deciding on the white point at 
this time. Hope this clarifies it some for you about the changes to 
make in the output numbers. On the curve 0=19 and 255=252 with the 
anchor points 90=90 102=102 114=114 and  179=179 191=191 and 204=204. 
This is the settings I use to set the black/white points, which gives 
me full tonality of the image. This is done after all the work on the 
image is completed. There is no noticable change visually to the 
image on the screen after applying the BP/WP settings. This is a 
separate curve applied at the very end of all the work done.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David 
Wroblewski" <dawroblewski@y...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > ... Go to > www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black
> > Point/White Point > information for the printer. Do the procedure 
> > to determine what Black > Point is needed to allow you to print 
> > a full tonal ranged image, and then do the procedure for the 
> > White Point to do the same thing. You may be surprised what this
> >  simple procedure can do for your printing results. I found that 
> > I had been using the Zero point to indicate my black point and 
> > after doing the BP/WP I now use BP=19 and WP=252. Do this test 
> > on all the types of paper you use.
> >  
> 
> I checked out the zuberphotographics pages you reference. 
> Interesting.
> 
> I have a longstanding point of confusion over whether I should 
> be setting the output sliders for black and white point (I always
> leave them at 0/255). This has only gotten worse with the advent of 
> QTR and IJC. Both those systems allow you to calibrate the point 
> at which each ink maxes out on the paper, and also to linearize a
> profile. Doesn't that mean that one would always leave the 
> output sliders at 0/255? Ie, doesn't the IJC/QTR curve already 
> perform this function?
> 
> -david

Guy ...

I have all my profiles, inlcuing QTR-Gray Lab in the following
location: WINDOWS\SYSTEM 32\SPOOL\DRIVERS\COLOR, and am able to get to
 QTR-Gray Lab from both the 'Edit>Color Settings' and
'Image>Mode>Convert to Profile' dialogs.  I am using XP Home Edition
and would expect it uses same setup as XP Pro.   

Let me know if this helps.

Fred Drury
Markland Imaging

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, guy washburn
<guido02474@y...> wrote:

> Sarah,
> 
> With PSCS on XPpro, the GrayLab space shows up in the
> list for image>mode>convert but doesn't under "Color
> Settings". Is there someplace else I have to copy the
> GrayLab file to in order to make it show up in the
> "Color Settings" list?
> 
> Guy
> --- jessupsa <sjessup@c...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Johnny,
> > The method you describe certainly works, but it can
> > be even more streamlined. If 
> > you generally use the "Gray Lab" for your B&W work,
> > you can just change your gray 
> > settings in the Photoshop "Color Settings" area to
> > "Gray Lab." Then you won't even 
> > have to bother with the Convert to profile step. As
> > soon as you're in grayscale, 
> > you're in Gray Lab. The end results should be the
> > same.
> > Sarah
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > "Johnny Eades" 
> > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > >snip> 
> > > Roy has created a gray working space to enable
> > softproofing from the 
> > > working gray workspace. Download from Roy's
> > website the two QTR-Gray 
> > > Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you
> > have image ready to 
> > > convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to
> > profile and choose 
> > > the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it
> > to Gray Lab; 
> > > convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final
> > access to your soft 
> > > proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be
> > done to the image 
> > > before saving and printing. The results from the
> > BP/WP testing can be 
> > > put into a curve that can be applied to the
> > Grayscale image (Gray Lab 
> > > or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image
> > will print with the 
> > > minimum amout of ink to show total black on the
> > paper used and the 
> > > maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope
> > your results will 
> > > please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I
> > followed this system.
> > > 
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > 
> > > Johnny
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com

Can I ask a really dumb question here.  The instructions say "Using
the same process you use to print your images, print each target
....".  So I print the target using QTR(Gui), but I *DO NOT* convert
the target to the Gray Matte profile (which would be the normal
printing process), because this would change the underlying numbers in
the file, and invalidate the whole point of the exercise, right?  I
just leave it as AdobeRGB.

F_P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
<jeades1@s...> wrote:

> I take it your monitor is calibrated using some kind of device and 
> software combination. This is a must to produce consistent and 
> predictable results from any workflow. Go to 
> www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black Point/White Point 
> information for the printer. Do the procedure to determine what
> Black  Point is needed to allow you to print a full tonal ranged
> image, and  then do the procedure for the White Point to do the
> same thing. You may be surprised what this simple procedure can do
> for your printing results. I found that I had been using the Zero
> point to indicate my black point and after doing the BP/WP I now
> use BP=19 and WP=252. Do this test on all the types of paper you
> use.

Hello Ferdinand,

You DO CONVERT the target to Gray Matte before printing. That is what 
you normally do to print QTR, right? Don't feel it's a dumb question, 
often I read something and try to understand it several times and 
often try several different things before I really see what the 
process is. As Thomas Edison said after 25000 tries on the electric 
light bulb, "Now I know 25000 ways NOT to make an electric light 
bulb."

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny




--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" 
<ferdinand_paris@y...> wrote:
> 
> Can I ask a really dumb question here.  The instructions say "Using
> the same process you use to print your images, print each target
> ....".  So I print the target using QTR(Gui), but I *DO NOT* convert
> the target to the Gray Matte profile (which would be the normal
> printing process), because this would change the underlying numbers 
in
> the file, and invalidate the whole point of the exercise, right?  I
> just leave it as AdobeRGB.
> 
> F_P
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > I take it your monitor is calibrated using some kind of device 
and 
> > software combination. This is a must to produce consistent and 
> > predictable results from any workflow. Go to 
> > www.zuberphotographics.com and download the Black Point/White 
Point 

> > information for the printer. Do the procedure to determine what
> > Black  Point is needed to allow you to print a full tonal ranged
> > image, and  then do the procedure for the White Point to do the
> > same thing. You may be surprised what this simple procedure can do
> > for your printing results. I found that I had been using the Zero
> > point to indicate my black point and after doing the BP/WP I now
> > use BP=19 and WP=252. Do this test on all the types of paper you
> > use.

To print with QTR you want to send a greyscale file to the printer, not an RGB file.

John

> the target to the Gray Matte profile (which would be the normal
> printing process), because this would change the underlying numbers in
> the file, and invalidate the whole point of the exercise, right?  I
> just leave it as AdobeRGB.
> 
> F_P
>

That's the theory, but in practice you can print from monochrome RGB
files.  That's what all of us who were using Qimage were doing (up
until the gray-lab profiles came out, which we can't use in Qimage). 
It works.  Qimage at the moment only outputs RGB when you print to
file.  

F_P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> To print with QTR you want to send a greyscale file to the printer,
not an RGB file.
> 
> John
> 
> > the target to the Gray Matte profile (which would be the normal
> > printing process), because this would change the underlying
numbers in
> > the file, and invalidate the whole point of the exercise, right? 
I

> > just leave it as AdobeRGB.
> > 
> > F_P
> >

Guy,
If this didn't already answer your question, go to "Color Settings">"Gray">"Load Gray" 
and load the Gray Lab there. Keep your other settings the same, and you have an 
automatic lab gray when you convert to grayscale. Your color Settings may be slightly 
different, as I use a Mac.
Sarah
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fotofred2" <fotofred2@e...> 
wrote:

> 
> Guy ...
> 
> I have all my profiles, inlcuing QTR-Gray Lab in the following
> location: WINDOWS\SYSTEM 32\SPOOL\DRIVERS\COLOR, and am able to get to
>  QTR-Gray Lab from both the 'Edit>Color Settings' and
> 'Image>Mode>Convert to Profile' dialogs.  I am using XP Home Edition
> and would expect it uses same setup as XP Pro.   
> 
> Let me know if this helps.
> 
> Fred Drury
> Markland Imaging
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, guy washburn
> <guido02474@y...> wrote:
> > Sarah,
> > 
> > With PSCS on XPpro, the GrayLab space shows up in the
> > list for image>mode>convert but doesn't under "Color
> > Settings". Is there someplace else I have to copy the
> > GrayLab file to in order to make it show up in the
> > "Color Settings" list?
> > 
> > Guy
> > --- jessupsa <sjessup@c...> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Johnny,
> > > The method you describe certainly works, but it can
> > > be even more streamlined. If 
> > > you generally use the "Gray Lab" for your B&W work,
> > > you can just change your gray 
> > > settings in the Photoshop "Color Settings" area to
> > > "Gray Lab." Then you won't even 
> > > have to bother with the Convert to profile step. As
> > > soon as you're in grayscale, 
> > > you're in Gray Lab. The end results should be the
> > > same.
> > > Sarah
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > "Johnny Eades" 
> > > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >snip> 
> > > > Roy has created a gray working space to enable
> > > softproofing from the 
> > > > working gray workspace. Download from Roy's
> > > website the two QTR-Gray 
> > > > Lab and QTR-Gray Lab Matte/Photo files. After you
> > > have image ready to 
> > > > convert to Grayscale, go to Image>Mode>Convert to
> > > profile and choose 
> > > > the Gray Lab; then immediately after converting it
> > > to Gray Lab; 
> > > > convert it AGAIN to Gray Lab Matte to have final
> > > access to your soft 
> > > > proofing procedure. Further adjustments can be
> > > done to the image 
> > > > before saving and printing. The results from the
> > > BP/WP testing can be 
> > > > put into a curve that can be applied to the
> > > Grayscale image (Gray Lab 
> > > > or Gray Lab Matte/Photo) and the resulting image
> > > will print with the 
> > > > minimum amout of ink to show total black on the
> > > paper used and the 
> > > > maximum amount of ink to show total white. I hope
> > > your results will 
> > > > please and surprise you. Mine surely did when I
> > > followed this system.
> > > > 
> > > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > > 
> > > > Johnny
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com

Johnny Eades wrote:
> You DO CONVERT the target to Gray Matte before printing. That is what 
> you normally do to print QTR, right? Don't feel it's a dumb question, 
> often I read something and try to understand it several times and 
> often try several different things before I really see what the 
> process is. As Thomas Edison said after 25000 tries on the electric 
> light bulb, "Now I know 25000 ways NOT to make an electric light 
> bulb."
>

This has me somewhat confused.

I do NOT convert the target to Gray Matte before printing with QTR (on 
the PC).

Is this a Mac vs PC workflow difference?  (Ferdinand, to whom you 
responded, is a PC user.)

	Thanks,
	Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walt Farrell
<wftemp1@h...> wrote:
> Johnny Eades wrote:
> > You DO CONVERT the target to Gray Matte before printing. That
> > is what you normally do to print QTR, right? Don't feel it's
> > a dumb question, often I read something and try to understand
> > it several times and often try several different things before
> > I really see what the process is. As Thomas Edison said after
> > 25000 tries on the electric light bulb, "Now I know 25000 ways
> > NOT to make an electric light bulb."
> >
> 
> This has me somewhat confused.
> 
> I do NOT convert the target to Gray Matte before printing with
> QTR (on the PC).
> 
> Is this a Mac vs PC workflow difference?  (Ferdinand, to whom you 
> responded, is a PC user.)
> 
> 	Thanks,
> 	Walt

I thought I undertood this, but maybe I don't.  Yes, I'm a PC user. 
On a Mac, presumably you'd be printing a grayscale image which is
originally in the lab-gray space, using "print with preview" in PSCS,
and converting to gray-matte as part of the printing process.  You can
print direct to QTR, and do the profile conversion on the fly.

On a PC, you have to convert the grayscale image in the gray-lab space
to gray-matte yourself, and first save to file before giving it to
QTR.  I can't see a huge amount of difference in the Mac vs PC
workflow, but perhaps I've missed something.

Is it something to do with the differences between gray-lab and
gray-matte?  On a PC you'd be making adjustments to the output levels
on the gray-matte file.  On a Mac, you'd be doing it on the image in
the gray-lab space, and doing the profile conversion on the fly when
printing?

I found that if I don't convert the target chart to gray-matte, then
my Epson 2100 (UC, EEM) can print distinguishable blacks virtually
down to zero.  If I do convert the test chart to gray-matte, then it's
black from about level 5 down.  This probably isn't a huge difference
for most images.

Even so, perhaps someone can explain *WHY* we need to convert the
chart to gray-matte.

F_P

I don't usually keep other messages connected to a reply, but this is 
an exception. I only convert to Gray Matte to softproof the image 
before saving it for QTR. There probably isn't any valid reason to do 
so, but that's just part of my workflow. Maybe convert isn't the 
right word to use for softproofing, so i suppose that is what caused 
some confusion.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny





--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" 
<ferdinand_paris@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walt Farrell
> <wftemp1@h...> wrote:
> > Johnny Eades wrote:
> > > You DO CONVERT the target to Gray Matte before printing. That
> > > is what you normally do to print QTR, right? Don't feel it's
> > > a dumb question, often I read something and try to understand
> > > it several times and often try several different things before
> > > I really see what the process is. As Thomas Edison said after
> > > 25000 tries on the electric light bulb, "Now I know 25000 ways
> > > NOT to make an electric light bulb."
> > >
> > 
> > This has me somewhat confused.
> > 
> > I do NOT convert the target to Gray Matte before printing with
> > QTR (on the PC).
> > 
> > Is this a Mac vs PC workflow difference?  (Ferdinand, to whom you 
> > responded, is a PC user.)
> > 
> > 	Thanks,
> > 	Walt
> 
> I thought I undertood this, but maybe I don't.  Yes, I'm a PC user. 
> On a Mac, presumably you'd be printing a grayscale image which is
> originally in the lab-gray space, using "print with preview" in 
PSCS,
> and converting to gray-matte as part of the printing process.  You 
can
> print direct to QTR, and do the profile conversion on the fly.
> 
> On a PC, you have to convert the grayscale image in the gray-lab 
space
> to gray-matte yourself, and first save to file before giving it to
> QTR.  I can't see a huge amount of difference in the Mac vs PC
> workflow, but perhaps I've missed something.
> 
> Is it something to do with the differences between gray-lab and
> gray-matte?  On a PC you'd be making adjustments to the output 
levels
> on the gray-matte file.  On a Mac, you'd be doing it on the image in
> the gray-lab space, and doing the profile conversion on the fly when
> printing?
> 
> I found that if I don't convert the target chart to gray-matte, then
> my Epson 2100 (UC, EEM) can print distinguishable blacks virtually
> down to zero.  If I do convert the test chart to gray-matte, then 
it's
> black from about level 5 down.  This probably isn't a huge 
difference

> for most images.
> 
> Even so, perhaps someone can explain *WHY* we need to convert the
> chart to gray-matte.
> 
> F_P