Digital BW, The Print

John:

Could you please post the web site address to find the QRTgui profiles that
you mentioned here.

Thanks,  David Neely
David Neely Photo 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: 02/13/05 18:35:10
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] QTRgui, B-O, and profiles
 
The reason canned profiles aren't necessary for BO or
for QTRgui is this: Some photographers still know how
to visualize and translate from color (the world
around us) to Black and White. A basic Ansel Adams
kind of idea. 

Also, some of us are not interested in large prints,
where Black Only dots might be seen ...my own testing
indicates that there is no perceptable difference
between B.O. and QTR results on a given paper EXCEPT
that QTRgui gives wonderful control over print tone
tone (cold to sepia) whereas Black Only simply
produces the kind of effect a given paper wants to
produce, emphasizing warm tones because the Epson OEM
pigment is somewhat warm. 

B&W art and portrait photogs have worked simply, with
virtually no science, for generations, simply liking
their favorite paper...eg the look of Agfa Brovira or
Portriga Rapid (get either with QTRgui)or with the
look of of Kodak's portrait papers (either QTRgui OR 
Black-Only).

Many good photographers won't give two hoots either
way.

B.O. makes very nice B&W ... deep, true blacks on
every paper I've tried... some photographers will find
this their ultimate solution, and as usual some will
want more science and numbers than QTRgui can offer,
lusting for complexity... 

Me, I can go either way :-)





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David, I don't know of any QTRgui profiles addresses, have not even
looked.

Given easy/excellent alternatives of Black-Only and QTRgui, canned
profiles may have little or no appeal to many of us...especially if
we'v shot, processed, and printed a lot of B&W film over the years and
practicing formal or informal "previsualization."  

Similarly, linearization's equivalent was never part of the
traditional silver printing discipline for most fine B&W printers.

IMO the situations the same with color. People who already have simple
photochemical printing skills should have little difficulty printing
well digitally without color profiles. 

As an alternative to "scientific"-seeming techniques, I want to
explore Craig Blacklock's multi-pass printing technique, hoping to get
expanded tonal scales and true duotone effects: www.viewcamera.com
Blacklock uses/used Piezotone and large printers, but the same success
should be possible with 2200 and probably others, combined with OEM
pigments and QTRgui. 

The idea of multi-pass printing seems more consistent with
image-making generally, certainly with print-making generally, than
does densitometry.

John 


> John:
> 
> Could you please post the web site address to find the QRTgui
profiles that
> you mentioned here.
>

I agree with the general theme of "whatever works for you" (profiles
work for me). As far as linearization not being a requirement for the
traditional darkroom process I can't speak to that directly because I
don't have a darkroom to compare to. But in the digital realm we only
have 255 grays to work with, so one or two values being rendered with
identical density has a far greater effect than two values being
rendered the same on paper (because there are more values available).

Following is a link to Roy's gray Lab space and a very short how-to
(better ones have been posted here, and in the readme).

http://homepage.mac.com/royharrington/FileSharing2.html

PC users:
- Get the image into Gray Lab by converting to Gray Lab space. Select
Adobe ACE Engine, Perceptual Intent, Black Point Compensation.
- You may soft proof in the Gray Matte/Glossy paper profile and work
in this space, for best WYSIWYG experience.
- convert to matte or glossy gray paper profile when ready to print.

Mac users (what Steve Kale said):
same as for PC, but when printing:
- document space=QTR Gray Lab
- print space=QTR Gray Matte/Photo Paper
- Intent=Perceptual
- Black Point Compensation=on

-Pieris
digital darkroom blog: http://www.pmb.net/darkroom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon"
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> David, I don't know of any QTRgui profiles addresses, have not even
> looked.
> 
> Given easy/excellent alternatives of Black-Only and QTRgui, canned
> profiles may have little or no appeal to many of us...especially if
> we'v shot, processed, and printed a lot of B&W film over the years
and

> practicing formal or informal "previsualization."  
> 
> Similarly, linearization's equivalent was never part of the
> traditional silver printing discipline for most fine B&W printers.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Pieris
Berreitter" <pieris@y...> wrote:
> I can't speak to that directly because I
> don't have a darkroom to compare to. But in the digital realm we only
> have 255 grays to work with, so one or two values being rendered with
> identical density has a far greater effect than two values being
> rendered the same on paper (because there are more values available).
> 

I appreciate the response, but it seems lacking. 

1) When a digital person has no darkroom experience, it's hard for
that person to make appropriate darkroom comparisons. 

2) Although B&W darkroom prints may have infinite grays (they're
analog until quantified), few traditional photographers (such as Ansel
Adams or Minor White) consider/ed B&W to have more than 10-12 grays in
practice. 

We can visually quantify 10-12 grays, not many more. That digital
technology can quantify 255 tones does not hint that it's relevant
visually. A shift of a few of 255 densitometric values of digital
density (ie perhaps 1-2%) are not seen, just as they would not be in
traditional darkroom practice. 

I'm perfectly happy to learn more about this technology, but my
impression is that digital techniques are making us less sophisticated
visually, just as we've become less capable of writing clearly (see
most websites).