Yahoo Groups archive
Thread
2005-02-16 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Tom- I've used both on 4000's and a 7600 with UC. If you want to contact me off-list, I'll try to answer any questions you have. Bill Kennedy Associate Professor of Photocommunications St. Edward's University 512/448-8680 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-16 by Alan.Huntley@cox.net
Hi Tom, I have now worked with IP 6.0 and IJC/OPM on an Epson 2200 with UC inks. My favorite test image has been printed on several different papers with both products. To summarize, I'm finding the MAJOR difference between the two is that IJC/OPM clearly separates deep shadow tonality (say, 3/4 tones or, maybe, a little further down the scale to black) where IP simply dumps these values. This with the Black Point slider set to 100, too! I've actually been quite amazed by this performance level in IJC/OPM! Also, the ability to get different "color" from very cool through warm to sepia is much easier and more consistent, IMO, with IJC/OPM than with the Tint Picker in IP. Again, IMO, IJC/OPM is THE solution for printing B&W on an inkjet printer, especially using the stock UC inks. Alan Huntley
> > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 03:55:47 EST > To: B&WPrintGroup <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > On a 9600 w/UC inks. What advantages, from image quality standpoint, does IPC/OPM provide over IP6 for b&w? I believe someone on this group has actually worked with both. > > Tom Baker
2005-02-16 by krn_ptr
Hello, I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black and white with QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? TIA, peter --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <Alan.Huntley@c...> wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I have now worked with IP 6.0 and IJC/OPM on an Epson 2200 with UC inks. My favorite test image has been printed on several different papers with both products. To summarize, I'm finding the MAJOR difference between the two is that IJC/OPM clearly separates deep shadow tonality (say, 3/4 tones or, maybe, a little further down the scale to black) where IP simply dumps these values. This with the Black Point slider set to 100, too! I've actually been quite amazed by this performance level in IJC/OPM! > > Also, the ability to get different "color" from very cool through warm to sepia is much easier and more consistent, IMO, with IJC/OPM than with the Tint Picker in IP. > > Again, IMO, IJC/OPM is THE solution for printing B&W on an inkjet printer, especially using the stock UC inks. > > Alan Huntley > > > > > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 03:55:47 EST > > To: B&WPrintGroup <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > On a 9600 w/UC inks. What advantages, from image quality standpoint, does IPC/OPM provide over IP6 for b&w? I believe someone on this group has actually worked with both. > > > > Tom Baker
2005-02-16 by Louis Dina
Hi Tom. My results mirror Alan's precisely. Compared to the Epson driver, ImagePrint was a big improvement and gave much better neutrals. I find IJC/OPM to be that same quantum leap over IP. Tonal separation is much better. I find the results to be silky and smooth compared to IP. I can create profiles that match the paper and give me the best Dmax. It has always irked me that IP has no linearization, ink limiting or other high end tools, and that you simply cannot build your own B&W profiles. At the price, those should be included. IJC/OPM offers these tools in an easy to use package and the results are superb. And you don't need multiple licenses to run on two different printers. I far prefer blending profiles to the tint picker in IP. I get better control, and if I want, I can go much further when toning, if desired. IP has some features, such as step and repeat, and printing multiple images in a single run, and doing color, which IJC/OPM does not support. IJC/OPM is one image at a time and is targeted more at people who want great B&W and toned B&W art prints. I see IP as more production oriented, and for people who want better results than the Epson driver with canned profiles, but without a lot of fuss, profiling, etc. But that comes at the price of less quality and control, IMO. Each product has its market and IP is good, but expensive solution. Peter, I hope this gives you some ideas why I like IJC/OPM. I like the ability to build my own profiles. Regards, Lou --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "krn_ptr" <krn_ptr@y...> wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black and white with > QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? > > TIA, > > peter > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <Alan.Huntley@c...> > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > I have now worked with IP 6.0 and IJC/OPM on an Epson 2200 with UC inks. > My favorite test image has been printed on several different papers with both > products. To summarize, I'm finding the MAJOR difference between the two is > that IJC/OPM clearly separates deep shadow tonality (say, 3/4 tones or, > maybe, a little further down the scale to black) where IP simply dumps these > values. This with the Black Point slider set to 100, too! I've actually been quite > amazed by this performance level in IJC/OPM! > > > > Also, the ability to get different "color" from very cool through warm to sepia is > much easier and more consistent, IMO, with IJC/OPM than with the Tint Picker > in IP. > > > > Again, IMO, IJC/OPM is THE solution for printing B&W on an inkjet printer, > especially using the stock UC inks. > > > > Alan Huntley > > > > > > > > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> > > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 03:55:47 EST > > > To: B&WPrintGroup <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > > > > On a 9600 w/UC inks. What advantages, from image quality standpoint, > does IPC/OPM provide over IP6 for b&w? I believe someone on this group has
> actually worked with both. > > > > > > Tom Baker
2005-02-16 by A. Huntley
Hi Peter, My primary tool for the printing of B&W images was ImagePrint. But, I bought IJC/OPM primarily because I wanted more control over my results. The fact that I'm seeing better tonal separation, especially in the very low end of the scale, is a delightful bonus! IJC/OPM is now my tool of choice for B&W printing. Alan Huntley
----- Original Message ----- From: "krn_ptr" <krn_ptr@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP Hello, I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black and white with QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? TIA, peter
2005-02-16 by Tom Baker
I don't really care about control. Control implies that I have to mess with stuff. I just care about results. IP is a 'control-les' environment that gives great results. I like it. However, it's comming clear that the IJC/OPM will produce visually better b&w with my current printer/ink, especially at the low end of the scale. And that's important to me. So, if I have to give up some convenience to get better results, so be it. And, the price certainly seems to be right. Tom Baker [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-17 by A. Huntley
Tom, The control offered by IJC/OPM does not require fiddling and "messing with stuff." Building the "ink recipes" is simplicity itself, though, for best results, a densitometer or spectrophotometer is required. A new user will probably need about a 1/2 hour to build their first neutral profile. From here, a family of curves can be easily and quickly built. An experienced, more advanced user like Lou Dina, could probably build an entire family of curves in about 10 - 15 minutes. Therefore, you really don't have to "tinker" if you don't want to. But, if you're so inclined to push the envelope as far as it can go, squeeze out that last ounce of quality, etc, IJC is the ultimate tool. Imagine being able to tweak the black ink limit so that the printer delivers the maximum ink your paper can hold to nail dMax? Imagine being able to introduce a subtle selenium/cool look in the shadows with a slight hint of warmth to the high end? I know IP 6.0's tint picker is reportedly supposed to allow this type of "split" toning, but, IMO, it's not well implemented. Do you see any metamerism in your B&W prints? Though IP controls this aspect very well, some IP users still report seeing metamerism in their prints. What if you built a family of profiles without using the yellow ink at all! Yellow being generally acknowledged as the cause for metamerism when using a color inkset to print B&W. With IJC, you can easily build such a family of profiles! BO printing? How about building a profile using mk and lk, only? Don't like the warm look when using only the UC black ink, introduce some magenta/light magenta or the cyans to adjust. If I sound like I'm defending IJC/OPM, it's because I am. Bowhaus and Joe are not particularly vocal and he doesn't tend to "blow his own horn." That said, IMO this product deserves the attention of any serious B&W digital printer. Believe me I fussed for years starting with blending my own inks and using transfer functions with the Epson driver through to MIS inks and Paul's curves. I finally scraped it all for IP because I, too, wanted a simple "out of the box" solution. I was tired of messing around! For about 1 1/2 years I was a stance advocate of IP for B&W printing; I still use it for color. I knew of IJC/OPM on the Mac side for some time, but wasn't interested in jumping into that endless search, once again, for the "holy grail." But, time marches on and I began to tire of some things I began to see as deficiencies with IP. I ordered IJC/OPM with some trepidation because I'm not used to buying software without kicking the tires, first. No need to worry, though. This product has been one of my best digital purchases. I know from reading your posts for quite some time, now, that you're an experienced, knowledgeable photographer. I'm sure you would agree that some shoot 35mm because it's easy, and some lug 50-60 lbs of equipment into the field (8x10.) Large format users are not concerned with a little work. They shoot this format because there is nothing out there that can compare! Okay, the higher end Better Light scanning backs probably come pretty close, but all that equipment ain't light, either! I view IP as 35mm and IJC/OPM as 8x10. If you want the best, you gotta be willing to endure some pain. As always, though, the standard caveat...YMMV. Regards, Alan Huntley
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Baker" <tbaker1328@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP I don't really care about control. Control implies that I have to mess with stuff. I just care about results. IP is a 'control-les' environment that gives great results. I like it. However, it's comming clear that the IJC/OPM will produce visually better b&w with my current printer/ink, especially at the low end of the scale. And that's important to me. So, if I have to give up some convenience to get better results, so be it. And, the price certainly seems to be right. Tom Baker [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-02-17 by richard_h95050
Hi All, Great feedback on the improvements people are seeing on IJC/OPM over Imageprint -- and I agree the ability to control profiles is just one of many compelling reasons to make the change for B&W printing. However, now that Roy (and Steve) have released QTR with profiling capabilities, has anyone done a similar comparison betweeen IJC/OPM and QTR after doing a profiling/linearization for their own system? Thanks in advance for any insight you can share... Cheers! -Richard --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "A. Huntley" <Alan.Huntley@c...> wrote: > Hi Peter, > > My primary tool for the printing of B&W images was ImagePrint. But, I bought > IJC/OPM primarily because I wanted more control over my results. The fact > that I'm seeing better tonal separation, especially in the very low end of > the scale, is a delightful bonus! IJC/OPM is now my tool of choice for B&W
> printing. > > Alan Huntley >
2005-02-17 by Tom Baker
I'm not debating the point. It's just that IP is really the ultimate in simplicity. I've just encountered my first problem, though. The test target prints fine, but the tweaked target doesn't print. The progress bar moves but no print. The whole process does seem fairly straight ahead. I don't really think this is going to be painful. At any rate, the results will be well worth it. And, I might not re-up on IP the next time around. Tom Baker "A. Huntley" <Alan.Huntley@...> wrote: Tom, The control offered by IJC/OPM does not require fiddling and "messing with stuff." Building the "ink recipes" is simplicity itself, though, for best results, a densitometer or spectrophotometer is required. A new user will probably need about a 1/2 hour to build their first neutral profile. From here, a family of curves can be easily and quickly built. An experienced, more advanced user like Lou Dina, could probably build an entire family of curves in about 10 - 15 minutes. Therefore, you really don't have to "tinker" if you don't want to. But, if you're so inclined to push the envelope as far as it can go, squeeze out that last ounce of quality, etc, IJC is the ultimate tool. Imagine being able to tweak the black ink limit so that the printer delivers the maximum ink your paper can hold to nail dMax? Imagine being able to introduce a subtle selenium/cool look in the shadows with a slight hint of warmth to the high end? I know IP 6.0's tint picker is reportedly supposed to allow this type of "split" toning, but, IMO, it's not well implemented. Do you see any metamerism in your B&W prints? Though IP controls this aspect very well, some IP users still report seeing metamerism in their prints. What if you built a family of profiles without using the yellow ink at all! Yellow being generally acknowledged as the cause for metamerism when using a color inkset to print B&W. With IJC, you can easily build such a family of profiles! BO printing? How about building a profile using mk and lk, only? Don't like the warm look when using only the UC black ink, introduce some magenta/light magenta or the cyans to adjust. If I sound like I'm defending IJC/OPM, it's because I am. Bowhaus and Joe are not particularly vocal and he doesn't tend to "blow his own horn." That said, IMO this product deserves the attention of any serious B&W digital printer. Believe me I fussed for years starting with blending my own inks and using transfer functions with the Epson driver through to MIS inks and Paul's curves. I finally scraped it all for IP because I, too, wanted a simple "out of the box" solution. I was tired of messing around! For about 1 1/2 years I was a stance advocate of IP for B&W printing; I still use it for color. I knew of IJC/OPM on the Mac side for some time, but wasn't interested in jumping into that endless search, once again, for the "holy grail." But, time marches on and I began to tire of some things I began to see as deficiencies with IP. I ordered IJC/OPM with some trepidation because I'm not used to buying software without kicking the tires, first. No need to worry, though. This product has been one of my best digital purchases. I know from reading your posts for quite some time, now, that you're an experienced, knowledgeable photographer. I'm sure you would agree that some shoot 35mm because it's easy, and some lug 50-60 lbs of equipment into the field (8x10.) Large format users are not concerned with a little work. They shoot this format because there is nothing out there that can compare! Okay, the higher end Better Light scanning backs probably come pretty close, but all that equipment ain't light, either! I view IP as 35mm and IJC/OPM as 8x10. If you want the best, you gotta be willing to endure some pain. As always, though, the standard caveat...YMMV. Regards, Alan Huntley
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Baker" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP I don't really care about control. Control implies that I have to mess with stuff. I just care about results. IP is a 'control-les' environment that gives great results. I like it. However, it's comming clear that the IJC/OPM will produce visually better b&w with my current printer/ink, especially at the low end of the scale. And that's important to me. So, if I have to give up some convenience to get better results, so be it. And, the price certainly seems to be right. Tom Baker [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-17 by Tom Baker
I talked to Joe for a few minutes, decided to buy into it, bought it, and I'm already half way down the road. Tom Baker "A. Huntley" <Alan.Huntley@cox.net> wrote: Tom, The control offered by IJC/OPM does not require fiddling and "messing with stuff." Building the "ink recipes" is simplicity itself, though, for best results, a densitometer or spectrophotometer is required. A new user will probably need about a 1/2 hour to build their first neutral profile. From here, a family of curves can be easily and quickly built. An experienced, more advanced user like Lou Dina, could probably build an entire family of curves in about 10 - 15 minutes. Therefore, you really don't have to "tinker" if you don't want to. But, if you're so inclined to push the envelope as far as it can go, squeeze out that last ounce of quality, etc, IJC is the ultimate tool. Imagine being able to tweak the black ink limit so that the printer delivers the maximum ink your paper can hold to nail dMax? Imagine being able to introduce a subtle selenium/cool look in the shadows with a slight hint of warmth to the high end? I know IP 6.0's tint picker is reportedly supposed to allow this type of "split" toning, but, IMO, it's not well implemented. Do you see any metamerism in your B&W prints? Though IP controls this aspect very well, some IP users still report seeing metamerism in their prints. What if you built a family of profiles without using the yellow ink at all! Yellow being generally acknowledged as the cause for metamerism when using a color inkset to print B&W. With IJC, you can easily build such a family of profiles! BO printing? How about building a profile using mk and lk, only? Don't like the warm look when using only the UC black ink, introduce some magenta/light magenta or the cyans to adjust. If I sound like I'm defending IJC/OPM, it's because I am. Bowhaus and Joe are not particularly vocal and he doesn't tend to "blow his own horn." That said, IMO this product deserves the attention of any serious B&W digital printer. Believe me I fussed for years starting with blending my own inks and using transfer functions with the Epson driver through to MIS inks and Paul's curves. I finally scraped it all for IP because I, too, wanted a simple "out of the box" solution. I was tired of messing around! For about 1 1/2 years I was a stance advocate of IP for B&W printing; I still use it for color. I knew of IJC/OPM on the Mac side for some time, but wasn't interested in jumping into that endless search, once again, for the "holy grail." But, time marches on and I began to tire of some things I began to see as deficiencies with IP. I ordered IJC/OPM with some trepidation because I'm not used to buying software without kicking the tires, first. No need to worry, though. This product has been one of my best digital purchases. I know from reading your posts for quite some time, now, that you're an experienced, knowledgeable photographer. I'm sure you would agree that some shoot 35mm because it's easy, and some lug 50-60 lbs of equipment into the field (8x10.) Large format users are not concerned with a little work. They shoot this format because there is nothing out there that can compare! Okay, the higher end Better Light scanning backs probably come pretty close, but all that equipment ain't light, either! I view IP as 35mm and IJC/OPM as 8x10. If you want the best, you gotta be willing to endure some pain. As always, though, the standard caveat...YMMV. Regards, Alan Huntley
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Baker" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP I don't really care about control. Control implies that I have to mess with stuff. I just care about results. IP is a 'control-les' environment that gives great results. I like it. However, it's comming clear that the IJC/OPM will produce visually better b&w with my current printer/ink, especially at the low end of the scale. And that's important to me. So, if I have to give up some convenience to get better results, so be it. And, the price certainly seems to be right. Tom Baker [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-17 by Nick H. Nugent
Hi Richard, --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "richard_h95050" <richardh@j...> wrote: > > However, now that Roy (and Steve) have released QTR with profiling > capabilities, has anyone done a similar comparison betweeen IJC/OPM > and QTR after doing a profiling/linearization for their own system? I haven't done a thorough comparison of the two systems but sofar it appears they both produce very excellent results. There is though one issue related to dmax with IJC/OPM which Joe Berndt is working on. He's working on some special algorithm to boost the dmax of the old 1160 printer. I'll let Joe make the announcement when he's ready. Both software are very easy to use. You got a slick UI with IJC/OPM but with QTR you don't even have to mess with the creation of an initial ink curve, just print, measure, and fill in a couple of values in the UI and you got curves, and of course both systems have linearization steps. Stephen Billard's QTRGui is making QTR very user friendly like IJC/OPM. There are though two improvements I'd like to have in both systems: 1. In QTR: something like "print target for linearization". I made the mistake of printing a target for linearization with linearization info already included and got terrible results until I got it figured out. 2. In both: a custom brightness curve. IJC/OPM has an Aim Curve but I'd like to have the ability to add more control points. Overall I'm very impressed with both systems as they both produce excellent profiles. --nick
2005-02-17 by Alan.Huntley@cox.net
Tom, Good luck. I think you're really going to like it once you're set up. Please post your opinions. Alan Huntley
> > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 08:44:34 EST > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > I talked to Joe for a few minutes, decided to buy into it, bought it, and I'm already half way down the road. > > Tom Baker
2005-02-17 by Stephen Kobrin
For those of us still climbing the heel of the technology curve are do either IJC/OP or IP provide "canned" curves for the standard paper/ink combinations? I would like to try one or the other on a R800 when they become available for that printer, but am not sure that I am up to actually creating curves -- as opposed to modifying them. Steve --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <Alan.Huntley@c...> wrote: > Tom, > > Good luck. I think you're really going to like it once you're set up. Please post your opinions. > > Alan Huntley > > > > > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 08:44:34 EST > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > I talked to Joe for a few minutes, decided to buy into it, bought it, and I'm already half way down the road. > > > > Tom Baker
2005-02-17 by krn_ptr
Thanks, Lou. I'm getting the idea that IJC/OPM is fairly sophisticated. I've only scratched the surface with QTR, and I've never seen IJC/OPM, so I'm not in a position to make any comparisons yet. A lot of people in this group seem to like QTR, and so far, I'm already impressed. peter
> Peter, I hope this gives you some ideas why I like IJC/OPM. I like > the ability to build my own profiles. > > Regards, Lou > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "krn_ptr" > <krn_ptr@y...> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black > and white with > > QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? > > > > TIA, > > > > peter
2005-02-17 by krn_ptr
Thanks for your input, Alan. I've never heard of ImagePrint (I'm only just realizing now that it's the "IP" that everyone's referring to.) I have had only limited and frustrating experience with trying to get neutral black and white let alone any real control over tonality. So far, I'm impressed with QTR. Perhaps I'll take a look at IJC/OPM at some point. peter --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "A. Huntley" < Alan.Huntley@c...> wrote:
> Hi Peter, > > My primary tool for the printing of B&W images was ImagePrint. But, I bought > IJC/OPM primarily because I wanted more control over my results. The fact > that I'm seeing better tonal separation, especially in the very low end of > the scale, is a delightful bonus! IJC/OPM is now my tool of choice for B&W > printing. > > Alan Huntley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "krn_ptr" <krn_ptr@y...> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > Hello, > > I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black and white > with > QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? > > TIA, > > peter
2005-02-17 by Louis Dina
IJC/OPM, QTR and ImagePrint all have a variety of canned profiles for B&W printing. I know both IJC/OPM and QTR will soon support the R800, but I am not sure about ImagePrint. I'm most familiar with IJC. There is a large library of curves available, so you don't have to create your own curves from scratch. If you find a paper/ink/printer combo that give you good results, you just print. Or, if you want a little better results, you can simply linearize an existing profile so it performs optimally with your printer. That is fairly easy to do. IJC supports densitometers, spectrophotometers or scanners for linearization. Lou --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin" <kobrins@w...> wrote: > > For those of us still climbing the heel of the technology curve are > do either IJC/OP or IP provide "canned" curves for the standard > paper/ink combinations? I would like to try one or the other on a > R800 when they become available for that printer, but am not sure > that I am up to actually creating curves -- as opposed to modifying > them. > > Steve > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > <Alan.Huntley@c...> wrote: > > Tom, > > > > Good luck. I think you're really going to like it once you're set > up. Please post your opinions. > > > > Alan Huntley > > > > > > > > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> > > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 08:44:34 EST > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > > > > I talked to Joe for a few minutes, decided to buy into it, bought
> it, and I'm already half way down the road. > > > > > > Tom Baker
2005-02-17 by Tom Baker
Thanks Lou - I use Somerset Velvet, Brightcube Satine, EP Textured Fine Art (mostly color for repros of watercolors), and will probably add one or two Innova and BC papers. I'm not having any luck trying to build a profile from scratch. Can't get the Tweaked Target to print. Also, the 'manual' says the tragets should be printing in gray scale. What I'm seeing is color. Today's activity will be to take an existing 2200 profile and linerize it for my printer. I just EEM for this since there are so many profiles for it. With the UC ink set this should get me real close. Is there a library of profiles other than the rather limited one on the IJC site? THX Tom Baker Louis Dina <lbdina@...> wrote: Hi Tom. My results mirror Alan's precisely. Compared to the Epson driver, ImagePrint was a big improvement and gave much better neutrals. I find IJC/OPM to be that same quantum leap over IP. Tonal separation is much better. I find the results to be silky and smooth compared to IP. I can create profiles that match the paper and give me the best Dmax. It has always irked me that IP has no linearization, ink limiting or other high end tools, and that you simply cannot build your own B&W profiles. At the price, those should be included. IJC/OPM offers these tools in an easy to use package and the results are superb. And you don't need multiple licenses to run on two different printers. I far prefer blending profiles to the tint picker in IP. I get better control, and if I want, I can go much further when toning, if desired. IP has some features, such as step and repeat, and printing multiple images in a single run, and doing color, which IJC/OPM does not support. IJC/OPM is one image at a time and is targeted more at people who want great B&W and toned B&W art prints. I see IP as more production oriented, and for people who want better results than the Epson driver with canned profiles, but without a lot of fuss, profiling, etc. But that comes at the price of less quality and control, IMO. Each product has its market and IP is good, but expensive solution. Peter, I hope this gives you some ideas why I like IJC/OPM. I like the ability to build my own profiles. Regards, Lou --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "krn_ptr" wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black and white with > QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? > > TIA, > > peter > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > I have now worked with IP 6.0 and IJC/OPM on an Epson 2200 with UC inks. > My favorite test image has been printed on several different papers with both > products. To summarize, I'm finding the MAJOR difference between the two is > that IJC/OPM clearly separates deep shadow tonality (say, 3/4 tones or, > maybe, a little further down the scale to black) where IP simply dumps these > values. This with the Black Point slider set to 100, too! I've actually been quite > amazed by this performance level in IJC/OPM! > > > > Also, the ability to get different "color" from very cool through warm to sepia is > much easier and more consistent, IMO, with IJC/OPM than with the Tint Picker > in IP. > > > > Again, IMO, IJC/OPM is THE solution for printing B&W on an inkjet printer, > especially using the stock UC inks. > > > > Alan Huntley > > > > > > > > From: Tom Baker > > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 03:55:47 EST > > > To: B&WPrintGroup > > > Subject: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > > > > On a 9600 w/UC inks. What advantages, from image quality standpoint, > does IPC/OPM provide over IP6 for b&w? I believe someone on this group has > actually worked with both. > > > > > > Tom Baker Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-17 by Stephen Kobrin
Thanks Lou. Steve --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" <lbdina@c...> wrote: > > IJC/OPM, QTR and ImagePrint all have a variety of canned profiles for > B&W printing. I know both IJC/OPM and QTR will soon support the > R800, but I am not sure about ImagePrint. > > I'm most familiar with IJC. There is a large library of curves > available, so you don't have to create your own curves from scratch. > If you find a paper/ink/printer combo that give you good results, you > just print. Or, if you want a little better results, you can simply > linearize an existing profile so it performs optimally with your > printer. That is fairly easy to do. IJC supports densitometers, > spectrophotometers or scanners for linearization. > > Lou > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin" > <kobrins@w...> wrote: > > > > For those of us still climbing the heel of the technology curve are > > do either IJC/OP or IP provide "canned" curves for the standard > > paper/ink combinations? I would like to try one or the other on a > > R800 when they become available for that printer, but am not sure > > that I am up to actually creating curves -- as opposed to modifying > > them. > > > > Steve > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > > <Alan.Huntley@c...> wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > > > Good luck. I think you're really going to like it once you're set
> > up. Please post your opinions. > > > > > > Alan Huntley > > > > > > > > > > > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> > > > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 08:44:34 EST > > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > > > > > > > I talked to Joe for a few minutes, decided to buy into it, > bought > > it, and I'm already half way down the road. > > > > > > > > Tom Baker
2005-02-17 by Louis Dina
Tom, The tweaked ink target prints bands of color if you use colored inks. If you use quad inks, it will print those individual colors. The last band along the bottom prints a composite (based on the curves and ink limits for each ink) to show how they will look when combined. I rarely use this target to build or modify profiles. I use mostly the Target FOR Linearization and take readings with my spectro to find color shifts. I don't have profiles for most of your specific papers, but I do have a full series of 2200 UC profiles I built for Somerset Photo Enhanced Radiant White paper (cool, selenium, neutral, warm, sepia). All these profiles avoid yellow inks completely, except sepia, which uses a fairly small amount. I almost always start with a good, similar profile and print it out on my new paper. So, if you want to create a neutral profile for Somerset Velvet, start with a good EEM or Entrada UC neutral profile and print a target for linearization. Eyeball it, or take some spot readings with your spectro to zero in on color casts, color crossovers, lack of separation, densities, etc. If your shadows are a little weak and yellowish, you can add a little cyan and/or magenta to the shadows to neutralize them and add a little more punch. If the highlights are too cyan, you can lower the ink limit of LC, use the toner slider to reduce it a little, and/or modify the LC curve. You could also add a little more LK since it is warm, especially if you need more density. It's actually pretty easy and intuitive once you play a little. My warm profiles generally use only MK and LK inks. My cool, selenium and neutral profiles use all but the yellow ink. My sepia profiles use all 7 inks. Send me an email at home, lbdina@..., and I will email you a set of Somerset profiles. They ought to get you very close to where you want to be. If you don't like the toning, you can modify them to suit. I built thise with UC inks for 2200 on a Windows XP platform. Lou --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> wrote: > Thanks Lou - > > I use Somerset Velvet, Brightcube Satine, EP Textured Fine Art (mostly color for repros of watercolors), and will probably add one or two Innova and BC papers. > > I'm not having any luck trying to build a profile from scratch. Can't get the Tweaked Target to print. Also, the 'manual' says the tragets should be printing in gray scale. What I'm seeing is color. > > Today's activity will be to take an existing 2200 profile and linerize it for my printer. I just EEM for this since there are so many profiles for it. With the UC ink set this should get me real close. > > Is there a library of profiles other than the rather limited one on the IJC site? > > THX > > Tom Baker > > Louis Dina <lbdina@c...> wrote: > > > Hi Tom. > > My results mirror Alan's precisely. Compared to the Epson driver, > ImagePrint was a big improvement and gave much better neutrals. I > find IJC/OPM to be that same quantum leap over IP. > > Tonal separation is much better. I find the results to be silky and > smooth compared to IP. I can create profiles that match the paper > and give me the best Dmax. It has always irked me that IP has no > linearization, ink limiting or other high end tools, and that you > simply cannot build your own B&W profiles. At the price, those > should be included. IJC/OPM offers these tools in an easy to use > package and the results are superb. And you don't need multiple > licenses to run on two different printers. > > I far prefer blending profiles to the tint picker in IP. I get > better control, and if I want, I can go much further when toning, if > desired. > > IP has some features, such as step and repeat, and printing multiple > images in a single run, and doing color, which IJC/OPM does not > support. IJC/OPM is one image at a time and is targeted more at > people who want great B&W and toned B&W art prints. I see IP as more > production oriented, and for people who want better results than the > Epson driver with canned profiles, but without a lot of fuss, > profiling, etc. But that comes at the price of less quality and > control, IMO. Each product has its market and IP is good, but > expensive solution. > > Peter, I hope this gives you some ideas why I like IJC/OPM. I like > the ability to build my own profiles. > > Regards, Lou > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "krn_ptr" > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black > and white with > > QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? > > > > TIA, > > > > peter > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > > > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > I have now worked with IP 6.0 and IJC/OPM on an Epson 2200 with > UC inks. > > My favorite test image has been printed on several different papers > with both > > products. To summarize, I'm finding the MAJOR difference between > the two is > > that IJC/OPM clearly separates deep shadow tonality (say, 3/4 tones > or, > > maybe, a little further down the scale to black) where IP simply > dumps these > > values. This with the Black Point slider set to 100, too! I've > actually been quite > > amazed by this performance level in IJC/OPM! > > > > > > Also, the ability to get different "color" from very cool through > warm to sepia is > > much easier and more consistent, IMO, with IJC/OPM than with the > Tint Picker > > in IP. > > > > > > Again, IMO, IJC/OPM is THE solution for printing B&W on an inkjet > printer, > > especially using the stock UC inks. > > > > > > Alan Huntley > > > > > > > > > > > From: Tom Baker > > > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 03:55:47 EST > > > > To: B&WPrintGroup > > > > Subject: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > > > > > > > On a 9600 w/UC inks. What advantages, from image quality > standpoint, > > does IPC/OPM provide over IP6 for b&w? I believe someone on this > group has > > actually worked with both. > > > > > > > > Tom Baker > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-17 by Alan.Huntley@cox.net
Tom, Are you aware of the excellent tutorial in the Files section of this group written by Lou Dina? It's in the IJC/OPM folder. It might help. BTW, building profiles from scratch is not the way to proceed, IMO. Find an existing profile for a paper that's close to the one you need to profile--paper type, texture, color, etc--then, 1. Print Target for Linearization. 2. Measure patches and enter numbers on the Linearize tab. 3. Print Target with Linearization to verify that all steps appear to progress in a linear fashion. 4. Save. I defer to Lou's tutorial, though. Lotsa useful info there. Alan Huntley
> > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> > Date: 2005/02/17 Thu AM 11:26:53 EST > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > Thanks Lou - > > I use Somerset Velvet, Brightcube Satine, EP Textured Fine Art (mostly color for repros of watercolors), and will probably add one or two Innova and BC papers. > > I'm not having any luck trying to build a profile from scratch. Can't get the Tweaked Target to print. Also, the 'manual' says the tragets should be printing in gray scale. What I'm seeing is color.
2005-02-17 by Tom Baker
Thanks Alan - I did read and proceed according to Lou's article. I am curious why there is little/no interest in building new profiles from scratch. Time, quality? Tom Baker Alan.Huntley@... wrote: Tom, Are you aware of the excellent tutorial in the Files section of this group written by Lou Dina? It's in the IJC/OPM folder. It might help. BTW, building profiles from scratch is not the way to proceed, IMO. Find an existing profile for a paper that's close to the one you need to profile--paper type, texture, color, etc--then, 1. Print Target for Linearization. 2. Measure patches and enter numbers on the Linearize tab. 3. Print Target with Linearization to verify that all steps appear to progress in a linear fashion. 4. Save. I defer to Lou's tutorial, though. Lotsa useful info there. Alan Huntley > > From: Tom Baker > Date: 2005/02/17 Thu AM 11:26:53 EST > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > Thanks Lou - > > I use Somerset Velvet, Brightcube Satine, EP Textured Fine Art (mostly color for repros of watercolors), and will probably add one or two Innova and BC papers. > > I'm not having any luck trying to build a profile from scratch. Can't get the Tweaked Target to print. Also, the 'manual' says the tragets should be printing in gray scale. What I'm seeing is color. Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-17 by Alan.Huntley@cox.net
Tom, IMO, it's not necessary. I don't feel that Epson 2200's, and certainly the large format Epson printers, vary that much in manufacture. Therefore, again, IMO, I'm banking on the fact that Bowhaus's profiles will get me squarely on the playing field. Once targets are printed, measured and linearized, then I have a profile customized for my setup. About the only addtional thing I did was to print "Test Patches" on each of the papers I wanted to profile for to check the black ink limit. I found, in most cases, that my limit varied from the one set in the profiles from Bowhaus. Therefore, I adjusted to maximise (excuse the pun) dMax. Alan Huntley
> > From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> > Date: 2005/02/17 Thu PM 01:23:51 EST > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > Thanks Alan - > > I did read and proceed according to Lou's article. I am curious why there is little/no interest in building new profiles from scratch. Time, quality? > > Tom Baker
2005-02-17 by Louis Dina
Tom..... >I am curious why there is little/no interest in building new profiles from scratch. Time, quality? You can definitely build great profiles from scratch, and I have done a few. The quality of the final profile will depend on the skill and knowledge of the person building it. I actualy learned a lot by doing this, so it has been of value to me. The only real limitation is time and the willingness to experiement. There are limitless combinations to come up with a neutral, linearized profile, especially when using a multi-ink printer, such as the 2200 with 7 UC inks to select from. If you want a 50% gray, for example, you can blend all sorts of different combinations to get there. The fewer inks you use for a given profile, the fewer possible combinations you have. Building a Warm profile from K and LK inks only is pretty simple, since you only have two inks to mix, which are both very warm in nature. You may or may not get getter dithering and dot patterns by introducing more inks, but that is where skill and experience come into play. By using a good, existing profile that is already "neutral", you have a starting point for curve shapes and ink combinations, and a lot of the 'heavy lifting' has already been done. Then, if you want more or fewer inks, or slightly different toning, you can make more modest adjustments and see how they affect the final result. I spent quite a bit of time coming up with a good neutral profile for EEM. I played with different combinations to get the toning I wanted, good spacing, good curve shapes, ink limits, etc. I settled on using LK, LC and LM in the highlights and midtones, and C, M, and K in the dark midtones and shadows. I left yellow out of the mix to avoid/reduce metamerism. Is it the best attainable profile? I doubt it, but I am pretty happy with it. The neutrals are pretty consistent throughout the tonal range and it is very linear. Maybe the dithering and dot patterns can be improved by changing something. Someone else could probably take this profile and find an even better combination that is marginally better (I hope they do and are willing to share it). As long as I have a good profile as a starting point (a somewhat subjective call) I can repurpose it for different papers and/or printers that use the same inkset. Once I got my initial EEM neutral profile where I wanted it, building a family of cool, selenium, warm and sepia profiles was pretty quick and painless. And moving to a new paper was also easy. All I had to do was possibly change the Black ink limit, make minor adjustments for color casts, and relinearize. All done. If you have the time and inclination, building a few profiles from scratch is a good learning process and can add to your knowledge base. To save a lot of time, just start with a good profile and edit it to cut time substantially. Lou
2005-02-17 by Paul Roark
Tom, >... >I'm not having any luck trying to build a profile from scratch. ... In my view the curves box in Photoshop is still the easiest way to initially make curves. Where the printing utilities really shine, in my view, is in their linearization functions. Once a curve is close, this takes those final, frustrating wiggles out of them. To the extent these work well, that alone might warrant the use of one of the printing utilities (for the 2200 and up). So, if we could convert Photoshop curves (like mine) to curves that would be useable in these systems, we'd have the best of both worlds. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2005-02-17 by B. Ellis
>I'm not having any luck trying to build a profile from scratch. I'm not a profile building expert but I think the generally accepted wisdom among people who are is that it's best to start with some profile and work off of it rather than literally starting from scratch.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Baker" <tbaker1328@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP Thanks Lou - I use Somerset Velvet, Brightcube Satine, EP Textured Fine Art (mostly color for repros of watercolors), and will probably add one or two Innova and BC papers. I'm not having any luck trying to build a profile from scratch. Can't get the Tweaked Target to print. Also, the 'manual' says the tragets should be printing in gray scale. What I'm seeing is color. Today's activity will be to take an existing 2200 profile and linerize it for my printer. I just EEM for this since there are so many profiles for it. With the UC ink set this should get me real close. Is there a library of profiles other than the rather limited one on the IJC site? THX Tom Baker Louis Dina <lbdina@...> wrote: Hi Tom. My results mirror Alan's precisely. Compared to the Epson driver, ImagePrint was a big improvement and gave much better neutrals. I find IJC/OPM to be that same quantum leap over IP. Tonal separation is much better. I find the results to be silky and smooth compared to IP. I can create profiles that match the paper and give me the best Dmax. It has always irked me that IP has no linearization, ink limiting or other high end tools, and that you simply cannot build your own B&W profiles. At the price, those should be included. IJC/OPM offers these tools in an easy to use package and the results are superb. And you don't need multiple licenses to run on two different printers. I far prefer blending profiles to the tint picker in IP. I get better control, and if I want, I can go much further when toning, if desired. IP has some features, such as step and repeat, and printing multiple images in a single run, and doing color, which IJC/OPM does not support. IJC/OPM is one image at a time and is targeted more at people who want great B&W and toned B&W art prints. I see IP as more production oriented, and for people who want better results than the Epson driver with canned profiles, but without a lot of fuss, profiling, etc. But that comes at the price of less quality and control, IMO. Each product has its market and IP is good, but expensive solution. Peter, I hope this gives you some ideas why I like IJC/OPM. I like the ability to build my own profiles. Regards, Lou --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "krn_ptr" wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm new to this forum, and I've just started trying to print black and white with > QTR. I'd be interested to hear why you went with IJC/OPM? > > TIA, > > peter > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > I have now worked with IP 6.0 and IJC/OPM on an Epson 2200 with UC inks. > My favorite test image has been printed on several different papers with both > products. To summarize, I'm finding the MAJOR difference between the two is > that IJC/OPM clearly separates deep shadow tonality (say, 3/4 tones or, > maybe, a little further down the scale to black) where IP simply dumps these > values. This with the Black Point slider set to 100, too! I've actually been quite > amazed by this performance level in IJC/OPM! > > > > Also, the ability to get different "color" from very cool through warm to sepia is > much easier and more consistent, IMO, with IJC/OPM than with the Tint Picker > in IP. > > > > Again, IMO, IJC/OPM is THE solution for printing B&W on an inkjet printer, > especially using the stock UC inks. > > > > Alan Huntley > > > > > > > > From: Tom Baker > > > Date: 2005/02/16 Wed PM 03:55:47 EST > > > To: B&WPrintGroup > > > Subject: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM vx. IP > > > > > > > > > On a 9600 w/UC inks. What advantages, from image quality standpoint, > does IPC/OPM provide over IP6 for b&w? I believe someone on this group has > actually worked with both. > > > > > > Tom Baker Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. 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2005-02-18 by Hans & Chia
Hi, >Are you aware of the excellent tutorial in the Files section of this >group written by Lou Dina? It's in the IJC/OPM folder. It might help. > >BTW, building profiles from scratch is not the way to proceed, IMO. >Find an existing profile for a paper that's close to the one you >need to profile--paper type, texture, color, etc--then, Can anyone recommend a profile to start with when using MIS UT1, PhotoRag and Epson 7500? Thanks Hans
2005-02-18 by Louis Dina
Hans, I haven't built any profiles yet with IJC using quad inksets. I will note that IJC has drop down boxes above the graph with starting curves for Black, Dark Gray, Medium Gray and Light Gray inks. These are designed to get you into the ballpark quickly, so you don't have to start totally from scratch. I know the program also ships with some quad profiles for various papers. You should also check the Files section of this forum, since I know a few people have posted profiles. Try logging onto the bowhaus support page to review their profiles. (Here is the link to the Windows support and download page - http://www.bowhaus.com/ijcsupportwin/ijcwin.htm You will need your original user ID and password to access the data). Or send bowhaus an email. They might have a stash of profiles that will work for you. Lou --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia <chiahans@t...> wrote: > Hi, > > >Are you aware of the excellent tutorial in the Files section of this > >group written by Lou Dina? It's in the IJC/OPM folder. It might help. > > > >BTW, building profiles from scratch is not the way to proceed, IMO.
> >Find an existing profile for a paper that's close to the one you > >need to profile--paper type, texture, color, etc--then, > > Can anyone recommend a profile to start with when using MIS UT1, > PhotoRag and Epson 7500? > > Thanks > Hans
2005-02-18 by Hans & Chia
Thanks Lou, The closest profiles I have found for Quads is MIS UT2/1280. No UT1. But I will have a look again. Hans
>Hans, > >I haven't built any profiles yet with IJC using quad inksets. I will >note that IJC has drop down boxes above the graph with starting >curves for Black, Dark Gray, Medium Gray and Light Gray inks. These >are designed to get you into the ballpark quickly, so you don't have >to start totally from scratch. I know the program also ships with >some quad profiles for various papers. You should also check the >Files section of this forum, since I know a few people have posted >profiles. > >Try logging onto the bowhaus support page to review their profiles. >(Here is the link to the Windows support and download page - >http://www.bowhaus.com/ijcsupportwin/ijcwin.htm You will need your >original user ID and password to access the data). Or send bowhaus >an email. They might have a stash of profiles that will work for you. > >Lou