Digital BW, The Print

Ah my $50 is burning a hole in my pocket. Any estimate as to when 
the QTR will be ready for the R800? I can't wait to get started.

Signed,

Expectantly appreciative fan

Hi all,

While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective responses here.  With the 
2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you can tone images, 
but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not looking for 
perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no color casts or 
crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as the tone is stable 
from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and black and white - and I 
only print on matte papers.

Don

With the 
> 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that 
you can tone images, 
> but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am 
not looking for 
> perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white 
showing no color casts or 
> crossovers.  

Don,

I have printed a bit with QTR and UC inks in the 2200. The results 
were light years better than trying to get grayscale prints without 
a RIP like QTR but still fell short in two areas in my opinion. 
There was some barely noticeable color crossover throughout the 
middle values in the neutral prints and the dither pattern was still 
too apparent for my tastes in the highlights. 

I bought a 1280 with the current rebate and loaded UT2 inks from MIS 
on it that work well with no noticeable color crossover and an 
acceptably smooth dither pattern (now that I got a replacement for 
some bad carts). I have read a few posts complaining about color 
crossover with UT2 inks but maybe my eyes haven't been sensitized 
enough to pick up on it. I imagine the non-variable tone inksets 
like UT-FS and UT-FSN are probably the most stable in terms of color 
casts or cross over.

Jim

Don,

Both QTR and IJC/OPM are capable of perfectly neutral prints without 
any crossovers at all using the UC inkset.  It is really a function 
of the profiles used to print, and the time and care taken in 
building those profiles.  

I use IJC/OPM on a WinXP platform and build my own profiles using a 
spectrophotometer.  I can measure any hint of color throughout the 
tonal range.  I always build a "neutral" profile for every paper I 
use, either for direct printing, or for blending with cooler or 
warmer profiles for subtle shading effects.  I intentionally design 
my "neutral" profiles so they tend to mirror the color of the paper 
stock.  So, if the paper base is slightly creamy yellow, I tend to 
have my grays retain this slightly creamy yellow bias throughout.  I 
think it creates a more congruent image and works better with the 
paper.  You can, or course, blend in just a little coolness if 
desired.  I do the same thing on ultra bright "blueish white" 
papers.  I tend to keep them slightly on the cool side so they work 
with the paper.  

If I was willing to invest the time, I could build profiles that are 
totally neutral throughout the range, with no measureable color 
cast.  IJC/OPM has the capability to add just the slightest amount of 
color even in the "white" areas, so you are in effect toning the 
paper (similar to using absolute colorimetric rendering with color 
ICC profiles).  I ususally do not use this feature, but it nice to 
have it available.    

I haven't dabbled with dedicated quad inksets yet, so cannot compare 
directly, but the results I am getting with my 2200 and UC inks are 
excellent.  No complaints about color casts or crossovers.

Regards, Lou


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "hill14701" 
<hill14701@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective 
responses here.  With the 
> 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that 
you can tone images, 
> but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am 
not looking for 
> perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing 
no color casts or 
> crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long 
as the tone is stable 
> from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and 
black and white - and I 

> only print on matte papers.
> 
> Don

If you blend warm and cool (or cool selenium) profiles in the right 
proportion you should be able to print a step wedge that has no 
crossovers or color casts and is neutral (c=m=y) up to about 70%.  From 
about  70 to 100% the tone will be warmer because with the existing 
profiles MK is not neutralized with the UC_NEUTRALIZER function (only 
LK with the addition of LC and LM).  I think that Roy will be adding C 
and M addition to neutralize shadows thus providing consistent 
neutrality across the scale.

Carl

On Feb 20, 2005, at 1:00 AM, hill14701 wrote:

>
>
> Hi all,
>
> While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective 
> responses here.  With the
> 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you 
> can tone images,
> but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not 
> looking for
> perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no 
> color casts or
> crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as 
> the tone is stable
> from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and 
> black and white - and I
> only print on matte papers.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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>

> LK with the addition of LC and LM).  I think that Roy will be adding C 
> and M addition to neutralize shadows thus providing consistent 
> neutrality across the scale.

This function already exists in the current 2.2a PC version of 
QuadProfile. But in the next version we're going to do it in a more 
general way, where you can copy any ink to any other ink instead of 
being limited to specific inks for only K and LK.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

With my 9600 on rag media they are absolutely neutral and without metamerism. Even 
some of the quad inksets I've used had far more metamerism.

This rip is for real. I have not tried it with glossy media and the Epson photo black ink yet. 

Does anyone have experience with that?

john

:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective responses here.  With 
the 

> 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you can tone images, 
> but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not looking for 
> perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no color casts or 
> crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as the tone is stable 
> from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and black and white - and I 
> only print on matte papers.
> 
> Don

John,

With Phot Black and Premium Luster paper QTR makes
prints that look like Oriental Seagull. It's the real
deal.

Guy
--- john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> 
> With my 9600 on rag media they are absolutely
> neutral and without metamerism. Even 
> some of the quad inksets I've used had far more
> metamerism.
> 
> This rip is for real. I have not tried it with
> glossy media and the Epson photo black ink yet. 
> 
> Does anyone have experience with that?
> 
> john
> 
> :
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > While contemplating my next printer, I'm
> interested in subjective responses here.  With 
> the 
> > 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?
>  I realize that you can tone images, 
> > but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad
> inkset?  I am not looking for 
> > perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black
> to white showing no color casts or 
> > crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are
> great - as long as the tone is stable 
> > from black to white.  I like the idea of one
> printer for color and black and white - and I 
> > only print on matte papers.
> > 
> > Don
> 
> 
> 
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
All your favorites on one personal page \ufffd Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com

My limited experience when printing with Photo Black and Epson Pr. Luster using only the 
two blacks(QTR-warm) was heavy metamerism of the light black such that when viewed at 
an angle, the mid-tones looked etched.  So extreme, you will either hate it or love it.  I 
think there once existed some B&W traditional paper which gave a sort of silver and black 
look.  Reminds me of that look but with warm tones.

Tariq


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> With my 9600 on rag media they are absolutely neutral and without metamerism. Even 
> some of the quad inksets I've used had far more metamerism.
> 
> This rip is for real. I have not tried it with glossy media and the Epson photo black ink 
yet. 
> 
> Does anyone have experience with that?
> 
> john
> 
> :
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective responses here.  
With 
> the 
> > 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you can tone 
images, 
> > but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not looking for 
> > perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no color casts or 
> > crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as the tone is stable 
> > from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and black and white - and 
I 

> > only print on matte papers.
> > 
> > Don

Really? Well someone here is wrong...... I really can't see why there is no metamerism at all 
with matte black and qtr ( my experenece with many color curve combinations) and severe 
color irregularities with photo black. I'll find out soon. Anyone else like to weigh in?

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tariqgibranstudio" 
<tariqgibranstudio@y...> wrote:
> 
> My limited experience when printing with Photo Black and Epson Pr. Luster using only 
the 
> two blacks(QTR-warm) was heavy metamerism of the light black such that when viewed 
at 
> an angle, the mid-tones looked etched.  So extreme, you will either hate it or love it.  I 
> think there once existed some B&W traditional paper which gave a sort of silver and 
black 
> look.  Reminds me of that look but with warm tones.
> 
> Tariq
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > With my 9600 on rag media they are absolutely neutral and without metamerism. 
Even 
> > some of the quad inksets I've used had far more metamerism.
> > 
> > This rip is for real. I have not tried it with glossy media and the Epson photo black ink 
> yet. 
> > 
> > Does anyone have experience with that?
> > 
> > john
> > 
> > :
> > > 
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective responses here.  
> With 
> > the 
> > > 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you can tone 
> images, 
> > > but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not looking for 
> > > perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no color casts 
or 
> > > crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as the tone is 
stable 
> > > from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and black and white - 
and 

> I 
> > > only print on matte papers.
> > > 
> > > Don

Sounds like he's talking about bronzing, not metamerism. A profile using
only PK and LK would exhibit plenty of bronzing unless some kind of
coating was applied.

>> My limited experience when printing with Photo Black and Epson Pr. 
>> Luster using only the two blacks(QTR-warm) was heavy metamerism of 
>> the light black such that when viewed at an angle, the mid-tones 
>> looked etched.  So extreme, you will either hate it or love it.  I 
>> think there once existed some B&W traditional paper which gave a 
>> sort of silver and black look.  Reminds me of that look but with 
>> warm tones.

> Really? Well someone here is wrong...... I really can't see why there
> is no metamerism at all with matte black and qtr ( my experenece 
> with many color curve combinations) and severe color irregularities 
> with photo black. I'll find out soon. Anyone else like to weigh in?

On 2/20/05 12:32 PM, "john dean" sent the following verbage:

> 
> Really? Well someone here is wrong......

> Anyone else like to
> weigh in?
 

Confusion of terms.

Three different issues, metamerism, bronzing and this one I believe Tariq is
describing, where you are seeing more paper, less ink, therefore a different
look to the print in lighter areas... which I don't have a name for, but I'm
sure someone does.  You don't see this effect with rag papers, the matte
paper and matte black ink appearance are similar and lovely. With glossy
paper, it's a difference in ink density being laid down, you see more paper
surface with less ink, so areas of lighter values have a different sheen...
The paper sheen vs the ink.

I often read people calling both issues bronzing. Bronzing is seeing the
darker inks turn bronze in color when viewed at different angles. The other
is almost like a knock out of the print areas where there is total white
(paper)... Or lighter values causing a different look to the printed areas.

Carolyn

> I often read people calling both issues bronzing. Bronzing is seeing
> the darker inks turn bronze in color when viewed at different angles.
> The other is almost like a knock out of the print areas where there
> is total white (paper)... Or lighter values causing a different look
> to the printed areas.

I'd usually describe both as bronzing. But perhaps this is where we 
would use the term 'gloss differential'?

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

On 2/20/05 1:06 PM, "Daniel Staver" sent the following verbage:

> 
>> I often read people calling both issues bronzing. Bronzing is seeing
>> the darker inks turn bronze in color when viewed at different angles.
>> The other is almost like a knock out of the print areas where there
>> is total white (paper)... Or lighter values causing a different look
>> to the printed areas.
> 
> I'd usually describe both as bronzing. But perhaps this is where we
> would use the term 'gloss differential'?

Sound good to me. I just can't call it bronzing when bronzing is just that..
Bronze :)

Carolyn

Yes, I stand corrected.  Metamerism as I understand it is when the print(or specific ink 
colors in the print) takes on a different color tone and hue when viewed under different 
light sources.  It is Extreme Bronzing that I noticed.    

Tariq


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver <daniel@p...> 
wrote:

> Sounds like he's talking about bronzing, not metamerism. A profile using
> only PK and LK would exhibit plenty of bronzing unless some kind of
> coating was applied.
> 
> >> My limited experience when printing with Photo Black and Epson Pr. 
> >> Luster using only the two blacks(QTR-warm) was heavy metamerism of 
> >> the light black such that when viewed at an angle, the mid-tones 
> >> looked etched.  So extreme, you will either hate it or love it.  I 
> >> think there once existed some B&W traditional paper which gave a 
> >> sort of silver and black look.  Reminds me of that look but with 
> >> warm tones.
> 
> > Really? Well someone here is wrong...... I really can't see why there
> > is no metamerism at all with matte black and qtr ( my experenece 
> > with many color curve combinations) and severe color irregularities 
> > with photo black. I'll find out soon. Anyone else like to weigh in?

Oh, he was talking about gloss differential ( surface sheen differences between areas of 
the print)  and possibly bronzing ( of shadows ). Neither of these are metamerism, which is 
what I was asking  about. All pigments have the above two characterists t some degree on 
glossy media in my experience, even the hybred dye-pigment inkset of the 1280 type 
printers. I have never minded it on Premium Luster, even with my Epson CF inkset when 
sprayed.

And you guys are right, they need to be sprayed to reduce these relief effects, but that will 
have no effect on total print color. Anyway I'll check it out next week and see what I can 
come up with. It would be nice to be able to make monochrome semi-glossy prints that 
are neutral in color. I wish that new Lyson gloss paper that looks so much like gelatin silve 
paper would work with pigments. According to Lyson it doesn't. But, whatever.

John







My limited experience when printing with Photo Black and Epson Pr. Luster using
only the
two blacks(QTR-warm) was heavy metamerism of the light black such that when
viewed at
an angle, the mid-tones looked etched.





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver <daniel@p...> 
wrote:

> > I often read people calling both issues bronzing. Bronzing is seeing
> > the darker inks turn bronze in color when viewed at different angles.
> > The other is almost like a knock out of the print areas where there
> > is total white (paper)... Or lighter values causing a different look
> > to the printed areas.
> 
> I'd usually describe both as bronzing. But perhaps this is where we 
> would use the term 'gloss differential'?
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

As the effect I noticed is in the mid tones and does have that metallic bronze appearence 
from an angle, I suspect it was indeed extreme bronzing and not Metamerism.  Never ever 
seen it when printing with matte black, light black and QTR on Rag papers, only with the 
RC luster and Photo black.  I have really not seen much Metamerism with the Ultrachrome 
inks - certainly not like I noticed with the previous Epson Archival pigments such as used 
int the Epson 2000.  The third issue you mention is one I'm not sure I have noticed.   
Could it occur when, for example, one printed in Black Only mode and the result was a lot 
of actual white paper showing in the highlight areas.   


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carolyn Frayn <carolyn@u...> 
wrote:

> On 2/20/05 12:32 PM, "john dean" sent the following verbage:
> 
> > 
> > Really? Well someone here is wrong......
> 
> > Anyone else like to
> > weigh in?
>  
> 
> Confusion of terms.
> 
> Three different issues, metamerism, bronzing and this one I believe Tariq is
> describing, where you are seeing more paper, less ink, therefore a different
> look to the print in lighter areas... which I don't have a name for, but I'm
> sure someone does.  You don't see this effect with rag papers, the matte
> paper and matte black ink appearance are similar and lovely. With glossy
> paper, it's a difference in ink density being laid down, you see more paper
> surface with less ink, so areas of lighter values have a different sheen...
> The paper sheen vs the ink.
> 
> I often read people calling both issues bronzing. Bronzing is seeing the
> darker inks turn bronze in color when viewed at different angles. The other
> is almost like a knock out of the print areas where there is total white
> (paper)... Or lighter values causing a different look to the printed areas.
> 
> Carolyn

I haven't read this whole thread, but I will add what is likely a dissenting voice 
here.  Using QTR with my  9600 and Matte Black ink, and printing on a variety 
of papers (Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag), I have never been able to get a B&W 
print that I consider neutral.  Since there is no "canned" neutral QTR profile, 
you have to blend the warm/cool/selenium profiles to get neutral.  I have 
experimented with various blends recommended by people on this forum, 
and also making further guesses and refinements as to what to blend to get to 
"neutral".  When I hold up any QTR print I've made (using various 
combinations/blends) next to a silver gelatin print and next to an ImagePrint 
print, the QTR print is not neutral in comparsion.  The difference may be slight, 
and you may find the slight coolness or warmth of a QTR print pleasing, but I 
have never been able to get "neutral" from QTR.   Of coure, it could just be me, 
but I've done a bit of experimentation with QTR.

Now: before I get attacked for bashing QTR, I've paid my shareware fee and 
think it's a fabulous product.  And, in fact, since I only have ImagePrint for the 
9600, I may start using QTR for my B&W work on the 4000.  Just answering 
whether I think QTR prints are "truly neutral" and my answer is basically "No, 
but for the hundreds of $ difference between QTR and ImagePrint, it may be 
close enough."


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <
deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> With my 9600 on rag media they are absolutely neutral and without 
metamerism. Even 
> some of the quad inksets I've used had far more metamerism.
> 
> This rip is for real. I have not tried it with glossy media and the Epson photo 
black ink yet. 
> 
> Does anyone have experience with that?
> 
> john
> 
> :
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective 
responses here.  With 
> the 
> > 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you can 
tone images, 
> > but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not 
looking for 
> > perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no 
color casts or 
> > crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as the 
tone is stable 
> > from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and black and 
white - and I 

> > only print on matte papers.
> > 
> > Don

Both QTR and IJC/OPM are "capable" of perfectly neutral gray prints.  
It is all a function of the profile(s) used.  Many people prefer 
blending cool and warm profiles for neutral prints, which is fine.  I 
prefer to build a very neutral profile as a 'baseline'.  If I want a 
dead-on neutral print, I use that.  If I want a little cooler or 
warmer than neutral, I blend my neutral profile with other profiles.  
Just my particular preference.  Of course, I can still blend cool and 
warm if desired.

It just means making one extra profile, but I spend extra time on my 
neutral profile so it is exactly what I want.  I could make it 
perfectly neutral gray throughout the range (as measured by a 
spectrophotometer), but I generally prefer to allow the color of the 
paper carry through the entire tonal range.  So, if I am profiling a 
warm paper like Moab Entrada Natural, (the b* value measures about 
2.9, or slightly yellow), I will allow the b* to stay slightly yellow 
from paper white to black.  Once again, just my personal preference.

So, yes, if you wish, you can get perfectly neutral prints with 
either IJC/OPM or QTR.  

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> 
> I haven't read this whole thread, but I will add what is likely a 
dissenting voice 
> here.  Using QTR with my  9600 and Matte Black ink, and printing on 
a variety 
> of papers (Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag), I have never been able to 
get a B&W 
> print that I consider neutral.  Since there is no "canned" neutral 
QTR profile, 
> you have to blend the warm/cool/selenium profiles to get neutral.  
I have 
> experimented with various blends recommended by people on this 
forum, 
> and also making further guesses and refinements as to what to blend 
to get to 
> "neutral".  When I hold up any QTR print I've made (using various 
> combinations/blends) next to a silver gelatin print and next to an 
ImagePrint 
> print, the QTR print is not neutral in comparsion.  The difference 
may be slight, 
> and you may find the slight coolness or warmth of a QTR print 
pleasing, but I 
> have never been able to get "neutral" from QTR.   Of coure, it 
could just be me, 
> but I've done a bit of experimentation with QTR.
> 
> Now: before I get attacked for bashing QTR, I've paid my shareware 
fee and 
> think it's a fabulous product.  And, in fact, since I only have 
ImagePrint for the 
> 9600, I may start using QTR for my B&W work on the 4000.  Just 
answering 
> whether I think QTR prints are "truly neutral" and my answer is 
basically "No, 
> but for the hundreds of $ difference between QTR and ImagePrint, it 
may be 
> close enough."

On 2/20/05 1:33 PM, "tariqgibranstudio" sent the following verbage:

> 
> 
> As the effect I noticed is in the mid tones and does have that metallic bronze
> appearence from an angle, I suspect it was indeed extreme bronzing and not
> Metamerism.

Yes, bronzing.


>  Never ever seen it when printing with matte black, light black
> and QTR on Rag papers, only with the RC luster and Photo black.

It doesn't happen on rag papers.

>  I have really 
> not seen much Metamerism with the Ultrachrome inks - certainly not like I
> noticed with the previous Epson Archival pigments such as used int the Epson
> 2000. 

The 2000P archival inks were definitely hard to move from one light to
another.. But I see too much shift to green in daylight with the epson UC's
as well when using the epson driver. Magenta under tungsten, still there,
certainly not as bad with the UC's compared to the archivals prior.


> The third issue you mention is one I'm not sure I have noticed.   Could
> it occur when, for example, one printed in Black Only mode and the result was
> a lot of actual white paper showing in the highlight areas.

I just printed a warm print thru QTR on my 4000 to epson luster. I had to
check because I don't print to anything but rag paper for my BW's. The
differential I have seen has been with color prints made in the past with my
2200 and 2000P for proofing work.

100% warm is black only, that's what I printed.. And yes, the bronzing is
extreme in the dark areas, and I also see the difference in sheen in the
light areas, not total white as there wasn't any total white in this image.
It's there. So you may be seeing both issues. The paper is not as shiny as
the areas of ink, where there is a lot of ink... So where there is little
ink, it's not as shiny, it looks like the paper. I see why people are
calling them both bronzing, as it seems to be one effect when viewed
together. But with the color prints on gloss and semigloss I have
previously, where the bronzing is not so apparent, the gloss differential
certainly is.  Good to see but.. I don't happen to like gloss or semi-gloss
prints, either silver or inkjet, so I won't see it again. :)

Carolyn

That's really interesting to me because the first day I used it I was able to achieve what I 
considered "neutral" prints on Hahnemule  Phot Rag media. Of course "neutral" changes on 
each paper you try. Various degrees of optical brightners have a profound effect. My 
neutral set up on William Turner looked very warm just because of the natural paper base. 
The paper itself has color that contributes a lot to the highlights ( as does gelatin silver 
print paper ). 

I also hold these inkjet prints up to silver prints I have in my studio done on all kinds of 
processes, a Jerry Uelsman and friends prints from decades ago, a collector friends Ansel 
Adams, Paul Caponigro, Clarience John Laughlin, Emmet Gowin, Weston, etc. Now I see 
none of these silver prints as "neutral" anymore. Most of them look a bit green to me. 
Some look selenium ( not neutral ) and over toned, and some look cold. But none of them 
look neutral. The print developer one chooses to use influences the prints quite a lot as 
does the brand and variety of silver paper and toneing. I remember Adams saying once 
that the main reason he used a light selenium toneing was to get rid of that "horrible 
chemical color" that was the product of residue from the print developer he used. He also 
altered the benzitrizole and other anti- foggant compounds to alter the color of the 
developer. He called his prints cool purple sepia, whatever that means. My old Ilford 
Gallerie selenium toned prints look very slightly greenish to me too now, and I never 
thought of them being that way before. I don't think there is a such thing as true neutral, 
only subtle differences in hue. I think with these rips we have so many more choices with 
print color that were never even dreamed of before. It really changes the way you think 
about monochrome altogether, more like a painter or traditional printmaker would.

But, your right, when you place two black and white prints beside each other your 
perception of them changes, as does the light source you are viewing them in. My primary 
concern is to have the same hue in all value areas of the print! It is possible to do that now 
with Ultrachrome. I wish I had all these rips to test, but then I wouldn't get any work done 
at all.

John

> I haven't read this whole thread, but I will add what is likely a dissenting voice 
> here.  Using QTR with my  9600 and Matte Black ink, and printing on a variety 
> of papers (Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag), I have never been able to get a B&W 
> print that I consider neutral.  Since there is no "canned" neutral QTR profile, 
> you have to blend the warm/cool/selenium profiles to get neutral.  I have 
> experimented with various blends recommended by people on this forum, 
> and also making further guesses and refinements as to what to blend to get to 
> "neutral".  When I hold up any QTR print I've made (using various 
> combinations/blends) next to a silver gelatin print and next to an ImagePrint 
> print, the QTR print is not neutral in comparsion.  The difference may be slight, 
> and you may find the slight coolness or warmth of a QTR print pleasing, but I 
> have never been able to get "neutral" from QTR.   Of coure, it could just be me, 
> but I've done a bit of experimentation with QTR.
> 
> Now: before I get attacked for bashing QTR, I've paid my shareware fee and 
> think it's a fabulous product.  And, in fact, since I only have ImagePrint for the 
> 9600, I may start using QTR for my B&W work on the 4000.  Just answering 
> whether I think QTR prints are "truly neutral" and my answer is basically "No, 
> but for the hundreds of $ difference between QTR and ImagePrint, it may be 
> close enough."
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <
> deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > With my 9600 on rag media they are absolutely neutral and without 
> metamerism. Even 
> > some of the quad inksets I've used had far more metamerism.
> > 
> > This rip is for real. I have not tried it with glossy media and the Epson photo 
> black ink yet. 
> > 
> > Does anyone have experience with that?
> > 
> > john
> > 
> > :
> > > 
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective 
> responses here.  With 
> > the 
> > > 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you can 
> tone images, 
> > > but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not 
> looking for 
> > > perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no 
> color casts or 
> > > crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as the 
> tone is stable 
> > > from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and black and 
> white - and I 
> > > only print on matte papers.
> > > 
> > > Don

I don't want to beat this horse to death becaue it isn't that important.

But, two of the  toned gelatin silver prints that I just mentioned looked a tiny bit green to 
me in daylight - the Jerry Uelsman I have and one of my own Ilford Gallerie toned prints 
from 15 years ago - well under tungsten light they both have a slight selenium cast ( very 
pleasing ) from the toning they had done to them, when seen under this warm light. I've 
always known that there was some metamerism in type c prints but I swear I never thought 
about straight gelatin silver fiber prints having it. But they do! Everything does so some 
degree.

John

I'm sure that, if one owns or has access to a spectrophotometer, then QTR 
could make truly neutral prints.  I was speaking of using QTR with the 
supplied profiles and blending them.  I don't own a spectrophotometer, so I 
have experience building my own QTR profiles.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" <
lbdina@c...> wrote:

> 
> Both QTR and IJC/OPM are "capable" of perfectly neutral gray prints.  
> It is all a function of the profile(s) used.  Many people prefer 
> blending cool and warm profiles for neutral prints, which is fine.  I 
> prefer to build a very neutral profile as a 'baseline'.  If I want a 
> dead-on neutral print, I use that.  If I want a little cooler or 
> warmer than neutral, I blend my neutral profile with other profiles.  
> Just my particular preference.  Of course, I can still blend cool and 
> warm if desired.
> 
> It just means making one extra profile, but I spend extra time on my 
> neutral profile so it is exactly what I want.  I could make it 
> perfectly neutral gray throughout the range (as measured by a 
> spectrophotometer), but I generally prefer to allow the color of the 
> paper carry through the entire tonal range.  So, if I am profiling a 
> warm paper like Moab Entrada Natural, (the b* value measures about 
> 2.9, or slightly yellow), I will allow the b* to stay slightly yellow 
> from paper white to black.  Once again, just my personal preference.
> 
> So, yes, if you wish, you can get perfectly neutral prints with 
> either IJC/OPM or QTR.  
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
> <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > I haven't read this whole thread, but I will add what is likely a 
> dissenting voice 
> > here.  Using QTR with my  9600 and Matte Black ink, and printing on 
> a variety 
> > of papers (Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag), I have never been able to 
> get a B&W 
> > print that I consider neutral.  Since there is no "canned" neutral 
> QTR profile, 
> > you have to blend the warm/cool/selenium profiles to get neutral.  
> I have 
> > experimented with various blends recommended by people on this 
> forum, 
> > and also making further guesses and refinements as to what to blend 
> to get to 
> > "neutral".  When I hold up any QTR print I've made (using various 
> > combinations/blends) next to a silver gelatin print and next to an 
> ImagePrint 
> > print, the QTR print is not neutral in comparsion.  The difference 
> may be slight, 
> > and you may find the slight coolness or warmth of a QTR print 
> pleasing, but I 
> > have never been able to get "neutral" from QTR.   Of coure, it 
> could just be me, 
> > but I've done a bit of experimentation with QTR.
> > 
> > Now: before I get attacked for bashing QTR, I've paid my shareware 
> fee and 
> > think it's a fabulous product.  And, in fact, since I only have 
> ImagePrint for the 
> > 9600, I may start using QTR for my B&W work on the 4000.  Just 
> answering 
> > whether I think QTR prints are "truly neutral" and my answer is 
> basically "No, 
> > but for the hundreds of $ difference between QTR and ImagePrint, it 
> may be 
> > close enough."

>Using QTR with my  9600 and Matte Black ink, and printing on a variety
>of papers (Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag), I have never been able to get a B&W
>print that I consider neutral.

I have no idea how big a difference it makes but FWIW I don't use MK, I use
MIS Eboni for the black ink with a 2200. Perhaps I'm not being sufficiently
critical, I haven't examined the prints under an extremely bright flood
light or anything like that, but my prints with QTR on EEM and PFA papers
look to me as neutral as my many traditional darkroom prints made mostly
with Polymax Fine Art fiber base paper.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 3:42 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Is QTR truly neutral?




I haven't read this whole thread, but I will add what is likely a dissenting
voice
here.  Using QTR with my  9600 and Matte Black ink, and printing on a
variety
of papers (Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag), I have never been able to get a B&W
print that I consider neutral.  Since there is no "canned" neutral QTR
profile,
you have to blend the warm/cool/selenium profiles to get neutral.  I have
experimented with various blends recommended by people on this forum,
and also making further guesses and refinements as to what to blend to get
to
"neutral".  When I hold up any QTR print I've made (using various
combinations/blends) next to a silver gelatin print and next to an
ImagePrint
print, the QTR print is not neutral in comparsion.  The difference may be
slight,
and you may find the slight coolness or warmth of a QTR print pleasing, but
I
have never been able to get "neutral" from QTR.   Of coure, it could just be
me,
but I've done a bit of experimentation with QTR.

Now: before I get attacked for bashing QTR, I've paid my shareware fee and
think it's a fabulous product.  And, in fact, since I only have ImagePrint
for the
9600, I may start using QTR for my B&W work on the 4000.  Just answering
whether I think QTR prints are "truly neutral" and my answer is basically
"No,
but for the hundreds of $ difference between QTR and ImagePrint, it may be
close enough."


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <
deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> With my 9600 on rag media they are absolutely neutral and without
metamerism. Even
> some of the quad inksets I've used had far more metamerism.
>
> This rip is for real. I have not tried it with glossy media and the Epson
photo
black ink yet.
>
> Does anyone have experience with that?
>
> john
>
> :
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > While contemplating my next printer, I'm interested in subjective
responses here.  With
> the
> > 2200 and epson inks, are QTR images truly neutral?  I realize that you
can
tone images,
> > but are the results comparable to a dedicated quad inkset?  I am not
looking for
> > perfection, but I would prefer the ramp from black to white showing no
color casts or
> > crossovers.  Warm, neutral, or platinum tones are great - as long as the
tone is stable
> > from black to white.  I like the idea of one printer for color and black
and
white - and I
> > only print on matte papers.
> >
> > Don






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