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2005-02-27 by Stephen Kobrin
I am trying to print on somerset velvet enhanced paper using UT-2 inks and Paul Roark's Caron curve. Any suggestions as to which curve to use -- I tried the EEM carbon curve -- and which paper setting? I tried both photp paper and photo quality ink jet paper on my 1280. The prints are ok, but not quite there. Does anyone else have experience with this paper -- which I like quite a bit -- and UT-2 inks? Thanks, Steve
2005-02-27 by Daniel Ridings
> The prints are ok, but not quite there. Does anyone else have > experience with this paper -- which I like quite a bit -- and UT-2 > inks? Steve, I don't have experience with exactly your set-up, but I've tried with the Ultratone Easy inks and the C86. You've expressed my conclusion ... The prints are ok, but not quite there. I thought I'd give it a second try just last week, but this time with Somerset Enhanced Satin. I like the surface better than Velvet, but I still don't get good blacks. Daniel Ridings http://www.dlridings.com/paw2005
2005-02-27 by john dean
That's been my expreience also for several years with Somerset with either color or monochrome. It is a nice paper for delicate color work or soft black and white work where real dmax isn't needed. It must have something to do with the absorbant nature of the paper and the coating that is down in that soft cotton paper. For textured prints I use William Turner which I think is a great paper, significantly textured but with a crisp black and sharp resolution. Somerset if very durable though. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ridings <daniel.ridings@e...> wrote:
> > The prints are ok, but not quite there. Does anyone else have > > experience with this paper -- which I like quite a bit -- and UT-2 > > inks? > > Steve, > > I don't have experience with exactly your set-up, but I've tried with the > Ultratone Easy inks and the C86. > > You've expressed my conclusion ... The prints are ok, but not quite there. > > I thought I'd give it a second try just last week, but this time with > Somerset Enhanced Satin. I like the surface better than Velvet, but I > still don't get good blacks. > > Daniel Ridings > http://www.dlridings.com/paw2005
2005-02-28 by John Edmunds
Hi John,
"Somerset Velvet Enhanced" made by St. Cuthberts Mill in Wells Somerset is surface coated in just the same way as "William Turner" the longevity tests we have done indicate that the diference is that whilst the coating on WT has more initial punch the longevity of the SVE as printable papers is much longer (Blue Wool 7) before yellowing starts.
Forest John
john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
That's been my expreience also for several years with Somerset with either color or
monochrome. It is a nice paper for delicate color work or soft black and white work where
real dmax isn't needed. It must have something to do with the absorbant nature of the
paper and the coating that is down in that soft cotton paper.
For textured prints I use William Turner which I think is a great paper, significantly
textured but with a crisp black and sharp resolution. Somerset if very durable though.
John
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ridings
<daniel.ridings@e...> wrote:
> > The prints are ok, but not quite there. Does anyone else have
> > experience with this paper -- which I like quite a bit -- and UT-2
> > inks?
>
> Steve,
>
> I don't have experience with exactly your set-up, but I've tried with the
> Ultratone Easy inks and the C86.
>
> You've expressed my conclusion ... The prints are ok, but not quite there.
>
> I thought I'd give it a second try just last week, but this time with
> Somerset Enhanced Satin. I like the surface better than Velvet, but I
> still don't get good blacks.
>
> Daniel Ridings
> http://www.dlridings.com/paw2005
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2005-02-28 by Jim Doyle
Just remember the Paper base is made different on these papers WT has Fibers That Stand up to give it tooth ..Thats Why it flakes a bit more.. Jim Doyle J. Doyle Enterprises LLC. 114 Old Orchard Rd. Cherry Hill, NJ 08003 856-424-8660 http://www.shadesofpaper.com
-----Original Message-----
From: John Edmunds [mailto:charleysfabrics@...]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 3:06 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Somerst Velvet Enhanced
Hi John,
"Somerset Velvet Enhanced" made by St. Cuthberts Mill in Wells
Somerset is surface coated in just the same way as "William Turner" the
longevity tests we have done indicate that the diference is that whilst the
coating on WT has more initial punch the longevity of the SVE as printable
papers is much longer (Blue Wool 7) before yellowing starts.
Forest John
john dean <deanwork2003@yahoo.com> wrote:
That's been my expreience also for several years with Somerset with either
color or
monochrome. It is a nice paper for delicate color work or soft black and
white work where
real dmax isn't needed. It must have something to do with the absorbant
nature of the
paper and the coating that is down in that soft cotton paper.
For textured prints I use William Turner which I think is a great paper,
significantly
textured but with a crisp black and sharp resolution. Somerset if very
durable though.
John
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ridings
<daniel.ridings@e...> wrote:
> > The prints are ok, but not quite there. Does anyone else have
> > experience with this paper -- which I like quite a bit -- and UT-2
> > inks?
>
> Steve,
>
> I don't have experience with exactly your set-up, but I've tried with the
> Ultratone Easy inks and the C86.
>
> You've expressed my conclusion ... The prints are ok, but not quite there.
>
> I thought I'd give it a second try just last week, but this time with
> Somerset Enhanced Satin. I like the surface better than Velvet, but I
> still don't get good blacks.
>
> Daniel Ridings
> http://www.dlridings.com/paw2005
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2005-02-28 by Daniel Ridings
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, john dean wrote: > papers I've used. But Somerset is so flat looking for anything with > significat blacks, it doesn't really matter for me. For most of my work > I won't be using it anyway. There are far better papers on the market > these days. > > John I agree it's flat. Very flat. But I would be interested in knowing what other papers you are thinking of (beside Hahnemühle). Daniel Ridings http://www.dlridings.com/paw2005
2005-02-28 by John Edmunds
Please Read Answers Below, St Cuthberts is one of our formulation licencees. Forest John john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote: I sense that you are totally wrong about that. I did not say they were the same coating only that they use the same technique for surface coating. I am much more aware than you of the actual coating diferences between the two companies than you might realise. The Somerset coating has been independently tested and reached "Better than 7 on the Blue Wool Scale" without Yellowing which in the same side by side test, the Hahnemuhle did not. Both Somerset and Concorde Rag have a MUCH more durable surface than any of the Hahnemuhle papers and the presence of optical brightners reduce the Somerset longevity according to the Wilhelm tests. The "Blue Wool Tests" have been used to mesure fade in Cotton products for almost as long as The USA has been a unifide country and the actual tests are much mor stringent than the "Wilhelm" tests However, when this paper is sprayed or placed behind uv glass this permanece is greately improved to quite impressive levels. I have used both Somerset V Enhanced as well as all the Hahnemule coated papers for over 6 years on a weekly basis. I know for a fact that the Somerset is more scuff and scratch resistant Agreed and it has to have a different coating. It not only looks different and feels different than most other media, it also absorbs ink differently. Those rag papers distributed by Legion in the US are completely different from the German papers I've used. But Somerset is so flat looking for anything with significat blacks, Two of the best Black and white Photographers in Europe use itand achive superb dense blacks and very subtle greys on this paper it doesn't really matter for me. For most of my work I won't be using it anyway. There are far better papers on the market these days. ?? I didn't realise you were a Paper Chemist sorry. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John Edmunds <charleysfabrics@y...> wrote: > Hi John, > "Somerset Velvet Enhanced" made by St. Cuthberts Mill in Wells Somerset is surface coated in just the same way as "William Turner" the longevity tests we have done indicate that the diference is that whilst the coating on WT has more initial punch the longevity of the SVE as printable papers is much longer (Blue Wool 7) before yellowing starts. > > > > Forest John > > > john dean <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > > That's been my expreience also for several years with Somerset with either color or > monochrome. It is a nice paper for delicate color work or soft black and white work where > real dmax isn't needed. It must have something to do with the absorbant nature of the > paper and the coating that is down in that soft cotton paper. > > For textured prints I use William Turner which I think is a great paper, significantly > textured but with a crisp black and sharp resolution. Somerset if very durable though. > > John > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ridings > <daniel.ridings@e...> wrote: > > > The prints are ok, but not quite there. Does anyone else have > > > experience with this paper -- which I like quite a bit -- and UT-2 > > > inks? > > > > Steve, > > > > I don't have experience with exactly your set-up, but I've tried with the > > Ultratone Easy inks and the C86. > > > > You've expressed my conclusion ... The prints are ok, but not quite there. > > > > I thought I'd give it a second try just last week, but this time with > > Somerset Enhanced Satin. I like the surface better than Velvet, but I > > still don't get good blacks. > > > > Daniel Ridings > > http://www.dlridings.com/paw2005 > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2005-02-28 by Steve Kale
I tried Somerset Velvet Enhanced in the past and also found it to be flat - principally as a result of not being able to achieve decent dMax. Somerset has never had a good rap on this forum and no we are not paper chemists but a wide body of users. Papers with OBAs are generally avoided. It is, I would say, the general opinion of this forum that papers with OBAs should be avoided because of the fear that the brighteners will fade over time and yellow paper (someone will correct me if I am wrong). The concern, I believe, is over the impact to paper white rather than the fading of the inked paper. Is this covered in the Blue Wool tests? Given Mr Edmunds is involved in the design of the infusion process used by St Cuthberts to make the paper I will pull some out of the cupboard again and take another look at it. Steve Please trim posts.
> From: John Edmunds <charleysfabrics@...> > > Please Read Answers Below, > St Cuthberts is one of our formulation licencees. > > Forest John > > > john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote: > > > > I sense that you are totally wrong about that. > > I did not say they were the same coating only that they use the same technique > for surface coating. I am much more aware than you of the actual coating > diferences between the two companies than you might realise. The Somerset > coating has been independently tested and reached "Better than 7 on the Blue > Wool Scale" without Yellowing which in the same side by side test, the > Hahnemuhle did not. > > Both Somerset and Concorde Rag have a MUCH more durable surface than any of > the Hahnemuhle papers and the presence of optical brightners reduce the > Somerset longevity according to the Wilhelm tests. > > The "Blue Wool Tests" have been used to mesure fade in Cotton products for > almost as long as The USA has been a unifide country and the actual tests are > much mor stringent than the "Wilhelm" tests > > However, when this paper is sprayed or placed behind uv glass this permanece > is greately improved to quite impressive levels. > > I have used both Somerset V Enhanced as well as all the Hahnemule coated > papers for over > 6 years on a weekly basis. I know for a fact that the Somerset is more scuff > and scratch resistant > > Agreed > > and it has to have a different coating. It not only looks different and feels > different than most other media, it also absorbs ink differently. Those rag > papers distributed by Legion in the US are completely different from the > German papers I've used. > But Somerset is so flat looking for anything with significat blacks, > > Two of the best Black and white Photographers in Europe use itand achive > superb dense blacks and very subtle greys on this paper > > it doesn't really matter for me. For most of my work I won't be using it > anyway. There are far better papers on the > market these days. ?? I didn't realise you were a Paper Chemist sorry. > > John >
2005-02-28 by Steve Kale
Here are some Lab readings from my current QTR setup for a neutral curve (essentially Eboni and a blend of MIS UT7 LC and LM), 100% patch and paper white: EAM 18.6 0.7 1.2 97.7 0.8 -4.8 SVE 20.4 0.6 1.6 98.6 0.1 0.0 HPR 18.6 0.3 0.5 97.2 0.5 0.0 So SVE lags in the dMax contest (1.51 vs 1.58), wins the paper white but we fear the OBAs and, in my opinion, has a lovely texture. At any rate, dMaxs such as those above ALL look flat compared with c2.4 for a well engineered RC paper print. Bottom line, we need a better black ink for matte paper. (The curve that produced the above numbers lays down a 95% strength of Eboni and overlaps a 10% hit of the light grey combo. I can't get QTR to lay down a full 100% of any ink without dither issues on my 2100.) Steve
2005-02-28 by John Edmunds
Dear Steve,
Yes we do supply St. C's with formulation, BUT ! But not for the Somerset V.E but for another paper of theirs. I have actually seen Greatag do a Dmax mesurement on Somerset at the PMA last year in Vegas and it ran out at 2.1 which I dont thinks is too bad, but that is of course a matter of opinion. What I was trying to point out is that diferent chemistry's can produce widely different results so it is a sensible proposition to get a combiation where the chemistry matches so as to obtain the overal results that you wish to achive.
The problem with OBA's is that it is, as much a problem of reaction with the ink bases, as it is with the loss of the paper whiteness. With regard to the "Blue Wool Test" in this particular case I was refering to exactly the fact that these tests were done on just the paper unprinted, it was not an ink on paper test.
Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
I tried Somerset Velvet Enhanced in the past and also found it to be flat -
principally as a result of not being able to achieve decent dMax. Somerset
has never had a good rap on this forum and no we are not paper chemists but
a wide body of users.
Papers with OBAs are generally avoided. It is, I would say, the general
opinion of this forum that papers with OBAs should be avoided because of the
fear that the brighteners will fade over time and yellow paper (someone will
correct me if I am wrong). The concern, I believe, is over the impact to
paper white rather than the fading of the inked paper. Is this covered in
the Blue Wool tests?
Given Mr Edmunds is involved in the design of the infusion process used by
St Cuthberts to make the paper I will pull some out of the cupboard again
and take another look at it.
Steve
Please trim posts.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2005-02-28 by Steve Kale
Hi John Well 2.1 would be very nice - but currently available pigment inks will not produce that sort of number... at least not Epson MK or MIS Eboni. Agree on your chemistry comment. I guess the bottom line with OBAs is that if you can get a paper with better dMax and a good enough white without them then avoid those with. Which of Somerset's papers have you worked with? Steve PS It would be really good to get a little more chemist input on this forum. You will find the range of issues discussed covers the mundane to the truly complex. I hope you pop into other threads such as those to do with bronzing and differential reflectance.
> From: John Edmunds <charleysfabrics@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:17:16 +0000 (GMT) > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Somerst Velvet Enhanced > > > Dear Steve, > Yes we do supply St. C's with formulation, BUT ! But not for > the Somerset V.E but for another paper of theirs. I have actually seen > Greatag do a Dmax mesurement on Somerset at the PMA last year in Vegas and it > ran out at 2.1 which I dont thinks is too bad, but that is of course a matter > of opinion. What I was trying to point out is that diferent chemistry's can > produce widely different results so it is a sensible proposition to get a > combiation where the chemistry matches so as to obtain the overal results that > you wish to achive. > The problem with OBA's is that it is, as much a problem of reaction > with the ink bases, as it is with the loss of the paper whiteness. With regard > to the "Blue Wool Test" in this particular case I was refering to exactly the > fact that these tests were done on just the paper unprinted, it was not an ink > on paper test.