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most grief due to non-OEM?

most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Djon

In modern printers (2200 and subsequent), this Forum's complaints
about heads, banding, and system failures almost always involve
non-OEM inks instead of Epson's encapsulated pigments. You can prove
that for yourself by browsing posts. 

The real arguments for non-OEM seem to be short-term savings (until
system failures)and, for those who insist, non-bronzing glossies. 

It doesn't seem to be a tone issue...QTRgui and other excellent
approaches and applications provide fine B&W tone control, maximum
Dmax and true grays with OEM.   

Many of us simply have more fun swimming upstream: A minority are
Macintosh or Linux users. I still shoot film. 

What justifies the grief with non-OEM inks in modern printers, rather
than the probably-more-archival (per Wilhelm)OEM pigments?

Re: most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by John Vitollo

"Djon" wrote:
> In modern printers (2200 and subsequent), this Forum's complaints
> about heads, banding, and system failures almost always involve
> non-OEM inks instead of Epson's encapsulated pigments. You can prove
> that for yourself by browsing posts. 

The majority of users on this list are using third party supplies...hence the high 
"complaint" ratio you see. 

Also most users don't post here until something goes wrong...hence the high "complaint" 
ratio you see.

Been using third party inks for a long time - about five+ years - and have had glitches 
along the way but mostly problem free.

Re: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Daniel Staver

What grief? I'm using the new refillable MIS 2200 cartridges - one set
with the MIS Archival 7600 Ultrachrome equivalent inks and another with
the UT7 inks. I haven't had a single clog with these cartridges and have
already refilled them several times.

I used to clean and refill empty Epson cartridges, and never had a
serious clog with those either, but they weren't as easy to refill as
the new MIS cartridges.

The color inks match the Epson inks really well. The only problem was
that the reds were a little weak so I paid \ufffd40 for a custom profile 
which fixed the problem.

Here in Norway a single cartridge for the 2100 costs around $23 so I
save huge amounts of money by refilling myself from 4oz bottles. Easily
worth the half hour I spend every time I refill my cartridges.

 From what I know the MIS inks are as archival as the Epson inks, so
that's not an issue either.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> In modern printers (2200 and subsequent), this Forum's complaints
> about heads, banding, and system failures almost always involve
> non-OEM inks instead of Epson's encapsulated pigments. You can prove
> that for yourself by browsing posts. 
> 
> The real arguments for non-OEM seem to be short-term savings (until
> system failures)and, for those who insist, non-bronzing glossies. 
> 
> It doesn't seem to be a tone issue...QTRgui and other excellent
> approaches and applications provide fine B&W tone control, maximum
> Dmax and true grays with OEM.   
> 
> Many of us simply have more fun swimming upstream: A minority are
> Macintosh or Linux users. I still shoot film. 
> 
> What justifies the grief with non-OEM inks in modern printers, rather
> than the probably-more-archival (per Wilhelm)OEM pigments?

Re: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Steve Kale

Completely agree.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Daniel Staver <daniel@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:49:17 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?
> 
> 
> What grief? I'm using the new refillable MIS 2200 cartridges - one set
> with the MIS Archival 7600 Ultrachrome equivalent inks and another with
> the UT7 inks. I haven't had a single clog with these cartridges and have
> already refilled them several times.
> 
> I used to clean and refill empty Epson cartridges, and never had a
> serious clog with those either, but they weren't as easy to refill as
> the new MIS cartridges.
> 
> The color inks match the Epson inks really well. The only problem was
> that the reds were a little weak so I paid €40 for a custom profile
> which fixed the problem.
> 
> Here in Norway a single cartridge for the 2100 costs around $23 so I
> save huge amounts of money by refilling myself from 4oz bottles. Easily
> worth the half hour I spend every time I refill my cartridges.
> 
>  From what I know the MIS inks are as archival as the Epson inks, so
> that's not an issue either.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>

Re: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Djon

Steve...you "agree" that MIS is equally archival to Epson? On what basis? 

Or did you mean that you "agree" you've had a little trouble with MIS?
If it's that, would you have had trouble with Epson OEM? What was the
dollar cost of that trouble (labor at perhaps $50/hr)? 

$23 per Epson cart is certainly outrageous...over twice what I pay in
the US for OEM 2200 carts, with free shipping and no tax.  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Completely agree.
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Steve Kale

I agree that I have had next to no issues with MIS ink.  Since the arrival
of their new refillable cartridges I have not had a clog either.  In London
I would have to pay £9-11 for an Epson cartridge for my 2100.  I can buy a
4oz bottle from MIS for the same price.  With MIS carts I can move between a
dedicated B&W ink set and a colour ink set easily and I can explore new
products and new uses for products such as glop with ease.  I used to use
Epson UC inks with QTR, then MIS UC equivalent inks with QTR.  A dedicated
B&W ink set does produce better results.  As for archival quality, it is
certainly my understanding that tests undertaken by Paul Roark suggest that
the MIS inks have all the archival quality I will need.  As for the dollar
cost of my trouble, I certainly wouldn't charge a measly $50 an hour for my
time.  But colour profiling with MIS inks takes no longer than profiling
with Epson inks.  Developing and linearising a QTR curve with MIS inks takes
no longer than with Epson UC inks.  Don't confuse being happy with canned
profiles with time not well spent.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Djon <westsidemaurice@...m>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:03:09 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?
> 
> 
> 
> Steve...you "agree" that MIS is equally archival to Epson? On what basis?
> 
> Or did you mean that you "agree" you've had a little trouble with MIS?
> If it's that, would you have had trouble with Epson OEM? What was the
> dollar cost of that trouble (labor at perhaps $50/hr)?
> 
> $23 per Epson cart is certainly outrageous...over twice what I pay in
> the US for OEM 2200 carts, with free shipping and no tax.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> Completely agree.
>> 
>>

RE: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Paul Roark

>In modern printers (2200 and subsequent), this Forum's complaints
>... almost always involve non-OEM inks instead of Epson's ...

Most of us have no serious trouble with MIS inks.  They are certainly not
perfect, but you'd need a proper sample of Epson pigment users to see what,
if any, clogging rate differential there is. 

As a practical matter, we wouldn't use the MIS inks if they were too much of
a problem.  I've never had a serious clog that was due to the third party
inks.  Nonetheless, to hedge my bet I've made sure that there is a UC-based
formula for the MIS formulas I come up with.  I published the UC UT7
formula.  I won't use it unless I have to, however, because it is not only
more expensive, but it is also not as lightfast.

>The real arguments for non-OEM seem to be short-term savings (until
>system failures) and, for those who insist, non-bronzing glossies.

The dedicated B&W inksets still have an edge in image quality.  For example,
the UT7 light warm gray is a bit lighter than a 50:50 mix of Light Black and
clear base.  The UT-FS(N) M & Y position inks are even lighter.  The FS-Y,
the lightest, can be used in a UT7 mix if one wants even a lower level of
dots than the UT7 already delivers.  

>It doesn't seem to be a tone issue...QTRgui and other excellent
>approaches and applications provide fine B&W tone control, 
>maximum Dmax and true grays with OEM. 

QTR and IJC are great tools.  However, they are still limited by what the
color inkset can to.  For example, they cannot deliver matte and glossy
printing with OEM inks without changing the black ink.  The MIS inksets can.
This is a huge issue for large format printers.

> the probably-more-archival (per Wilhelm)OEM pigments? 

MIS inks win in my fade tests.  See also Livick's tests at
http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2d2.htm.  About 1/3 down the page he
tests a 1280 with the last generation of MIS UT1.  A coated print was rated
at 681 years.  His 9600 results are just below these, and none are close.

Since the test above, the MIS formulas have eliminated the weakest color
pigment that was used in the neutral mix.  They now use no magenta, using
instead a clone of the R800 blue.  This is a much more lightfast pigment
that further distances the dedicated B&W MIS inks from the UC + RIP combo,
which do not use this new pigment.

In short, there are some very good reasons to use the MIS dedicated B&W
inksets even aside from the huge cost savings.

I have a reason that is a little more psychological than the objective facts
above.  My B&W productivity goes down when I also have color available.  I
can't help myself from "wasting" time shooting flowers, pretty sunsets, and
other subjects just due to their color.  In short, color is a distraction
that, in the long run, hurts my B&W, which is what I'm ultimately interested
in and prefer.

In this regard, the more people that use the OEM inksets and color digital
cameras the better.  If they are like me, it probably lowers the competition
in the B&W fine art market.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 










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Re: most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Clayton Jones

Hello Djon,

>What justifies the grief with non-OEM inks in modern printers, rather
>than the probably-more-archival (per Wilhelm)OEM pigments?

No grief here.  I'm happier now than ever before and it just keeps
getting better.  The only "clogs" I have are caused by trapped air
from changing carts, and I recently figured out how to avoid those.  I
can crank up the 2200 after long periods of sitting and get perfect
nozzle checks.

I print mostly BO with Eboni.  The main reason I use it instead of
Epson MK is its cooler color to begin with, and the gorgeous look it
has on various papers (IMO much prettier than MK).  And, being a pure
carbon ink  without toners, it is extremely fade resistant to boot. 
Life is good.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Djon

Paul, thanks for your thoughtful response to my provocation, for your
item-by-item discussion.

Your last point, about intentional self-limitation to B&W inksets is
the most important commentary I've seen on this forum.

The rest is technical, secondarily visual, like the distinction
between Accufine and Rodinal (one for fine grain and speed, the other
for sharpnes and edge-effect...but what about the images themselves?).
I accept that Accufine Vs Rodinal is an important debate (I'm a
Rodinal guy), but again, what about the images?

I visit many photo galleries:  digital technology has lowered the bar,
moving photo imagery more into the domain of technical people and  
away from the domain of visually skilled people (artists): Trite
rehashes of sunsets, nudes, rocks and trees, birds. On the other hand
etching,stone lithography, drawing and painting may be undergoing a
rebirth, like acoustic music...

> 
> The dedicated B&W inksets still have an edge in image quality.

but more importantly: 
> 
 My B&W productivity goes down when I also have color available.  I
> can't help myself from "wasting" time shooting flowers, pretty
sunsets, and
> other subjects just due to their color.  In short, color is a
distraction
> that, in the long run, hurts my B&W, which is what I'm ultimately
interested
> in and prefer.
> 
> In this regard, the more people that use the OEM inksets and color
digital
> cameras the better.  If they are like me, it probably lowers the
competition
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> in the B&W fine art market.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
>

Re: most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Djon

Clayton, Thanks for your perspective. 

What papers do you prefer with Eboni?

Are you doing any scanning these days or does that Canon meet all your
needs for B&W images?

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I print mostly BO with Eboni.  The main reason I use it instead of
> Epson MK is its cooler color to begin with, and the gorgeous look it
> has on various papers (IMO much prettier than MK).  And, being a pure
> carbon ink  without toners, it is extremely fade resistant to boot. 
> Life is good.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: most grief due to non-OEM?

2005-02-28 by Clayton Jones

>Clayton, Thanks for your perspective. 
> 
>What papers do you prefer with Eboni?

My favorites are Condor BW, Merlin Smooth, and Aurora Art, but I also
run proofs of new images on Pr as well, to see which one looks the
best.  I tend to avoid PR whenever possible because of flaking, but I
use it if nothing else will do.   I've gotten some new paper samples
in over the past few months and am looking forward to a new round of
testing.  Maybe I'll discover something new and exciting.

 
>Are you doing any scanning these days or does that Canon meet all
>your needs for B&W images?

I'm only scanning previous negs.  Am using the Canon for all new work.
Still exploring its possibilities, strengths and weaknesses.

I'm finding the biggest challenge to be portraits.  The ultra sharp
lens is merciless.  It also renders skin tones differently than any
film I've used, so am having to evolve different ways of thinking
about how to use it and control it.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

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