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Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-05 by Christer Rosewelll

Djon,

The 16 bit support is all the justification anyone needs if he/she 
wants to do REAL photography and is concerned with getting the highest 
quality images.

Vuescan is a very, very good program if you use it right - for the 
price it's a bargain.

C


			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell

			  http://www.ChristerArt.com



On Mar 5, 2005, at 11:40 AM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit
>
>
>
>
> PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real 
> photography.
>
> Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, though
> not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this as I do
> from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.
>
> I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've decided my
> Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular advantage
> over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# voicemail
> system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine years).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-05 by spineasy

Not to mention the RAW capabilities.

Greg Lockrey

Wealth is a state of mind.
Money is just a tool.
Happiness is pedaling + 25 mph on a smooth road.

http://pages.prodigy.net/glockrey

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Christer 
Rosewelll <christerart@m...> wrote:
> Djon,
> 
> The 16 bit support is all the justification anyone needs if he/she 
> wants to do REAL photography and is concerned with getting the 
highest 
> quality images.
> 
> Vuescan is a very, very good program if you use it right - for the 
> price it's a bargain.
> 
> C
> 
> 
> 			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
> 
> 			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 5, 2005, at 11:40 AM, 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real 
> > photography.
> >
> > Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, 
though
> > not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this as I 
do
> > from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.
> >
> > I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've 
decided my
> > Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular 
advantage
> > over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# 
voicemail
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine years).
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-05 by Mark Savoia

To each their own.

On Mar 5, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

> I haven't found a justification for any upgrade of Photoshop since
>  version 5.x.
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-05 by Djon

Digital technology is only a tool, it seems not to have advanced
photography as much as, say, the invention of the lens hood. 

I used to think the Healing Brush in PS7 was important, but I've come
to believe it's a crutch, like Digital Ice. So I can understand why
someone would be happy with PS 5.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> To each their own.
> 
> On Mar 5, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
> 
> > I haven't found a justification for any upgrade of Photoshop since
> >  version 5.x.
>

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-05 by Patrick Kealey

-Jeez, all these years I thought I was doing real photography,  who
would have thunk I werent.

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Christer Rosewelll
<christerart@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Djon,
> 
> The 16 bit support is all the justification anyone needs if he/she 
> wants to do REAL photography and is concerned with getting the highest 
> quality images.
> 
> Vuescan is a very, very good program if you use it right - for the 
> price it's a bargain.
> 
> C
> 
> 
> 			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
> 
> 			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 5, 2005, at 11:40 AM, 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real 
> > photography.
> >
> > Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, though
> > not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this as I do
> > from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.
> >
> > I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've decided my
> > Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular advantage
> > over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# voicemail
> > system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine years).
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-05 by spineasy

If you ain't shooting on 11x14 glass plates that you coat yourself, 
then it ain't REAL photography ;>)

Greg Lockrey

Wealth is a state of mind.
Money is just a tool.
Happiness is pedaling + 25 mph on a smooth road.

http://pages.prodigy.net/glockrey

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick 
Kealey" <pjkealey@y...> wrote:
> 
> -Jeez, all these years I thought I was doing real photography,  who
> would have thunk I werent.
> 
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Christer 
Rosewelll
> <christerart@m...> wrote:
> > Djon,
> > 
> > The 16 bit support is all the justification anyone needs if 
he/she 
> > wants to do REAL photography and is concerned with getting the 
highest 
> > quality images.
> > 
> > Vuescan is a very, very good program if you use it right - for 
the 
> > price it's a bargain.
> > 
> > C
> > 
> > 
> > 			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
> > 
> > 			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mar 5, 2005, at 11:40 AM, 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > 
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real 
> > > photography.
> > >
> > > Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, 
though
> > > not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this as 
I do
> > > from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.
> > >
> > > I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've 
decided my
> > > Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular 
advantage
> > > over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# 
voicemail
> > > system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine 
years).
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-06 by mls99

I hope there are others here besides me that realize this topic was 
a DUMB discussion!  I'm hoping that "WAS" is the operative word here.

Which camera is better? Which paper is better?  Which printer is 
better? Which film is better? LET'S NOT GO THERE EITHER, OK?

Ron Erdody

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "spineasy" 
<spineasy@y...> wrote:
> 
> If you ain't shooting on 11x14 glass plates that you coat 
yourself, 
> then it ain't REAL photography ;>)
> 
> Greg Lockrey
> 
> Wealth is a state of mind.
> Money is just a tool.
> Happiness is pedaling + 25 mph on a smooth road.
> 
> http://pages.prodigy.net/glockrey
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick 
> Kealey" <pjkealey@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > -Jeez, all these years I thought I was doing real photography,  
who
> > would have thunk I werent.
> > 
> > -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Christer 
> Rosewelll
> > <christerart@m...> wrote:
> > > Djon,
> > > 
> > > The 16 bit support is all the justification anyone needs if 
> he/she 
> > > wants to do REAL photography and is concerned with getting the 
> highest 
> > > quality images.
> > > 
> > > Vuescan is a very, very good program if you use it right - for 
> the 
> > > price it's a bargain.
> > > 
> > > C
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
> > > 
> > > 			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Mar 5, 2005, at 11:40 AM, 
> > > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real 
> > > > photography.
> > > >
> > > > Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, 
> though
> > > > not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this 
as 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I do
> > > > from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.
> > > >
> > > > I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've 
> decided my
> > > > Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular 
> advantage
> > > > over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# 
> voicemail
> > > > system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine 
> years).
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-06 by lulalake_1999

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mls99" 
<mls999@c...> wrote:
> 
> I hope there are others here besides me that realize this topic was 
> a DUMB discussion!  I'm hoping that "WAS" is the operative word 
here.
> 
> Which camera is better? Which paper is better?  Which printer is 
> better? Which film is better? LET'S NOT GO THERE EITHER, OK?

Here is a funny take by Ken Rockwell.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm

enjoy

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Seth

The addition of the "Shadow/Highlight" and "Photo Filter" Adjustments are
worth their weight.  CS is a major upgrade on the photo side of things.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Anthony G. Atkielski [mailto:anthony@...] 
==
==
==I haven't found a justification for any upgrade of Photoshop 
==since version 5.x.
==

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Francis Ford

You took the word right out off my mouth.In CS I can
do an image in about 10 minutes, and that is with a
lot of adjustments.Just the Shadow/Highlight tool is
worth having CS.The filebrowser,the list could goes on
and on.The basic idea of photoshop is the same but CS
is well worth it.Francis Ford
--- Seth <seth@...> wrote:

> The addition of the "Shadow/Highlight" and "Photo
> Filter" Adjustments are
> worth their weight.  CS is a major upgrade on the
> photo side of things.
> 
> Seth 
> 
> ==-----Original Message-----
> ==From: Anthony G. Atkielski
> [mailto:anthony@...] 
> ==
> ==
> ==I haven't found a justification for any upgrade of
> Photoshop 
> ==since version 5.x.
> ==
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Seth [mailto:seth@...]
>
> The addition of the "Shadow/Highlight" and "Photo Filter" Adjustments are
> worth their weight.  CS is a major upgrade on the photo side of things.

I agree. Unless you're a purist who believes in doing nothing to an image
after capture, each version of PS provides new and useful tools.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Brentley Beerline

A purist would only shoot chrome and not really alter anything right?
 If you shoot C41 you would be altering stuff in processing anyway.

Photoshop is a great tool for fixing minor issues as well as creating
all new creations.


--- "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> > From: Seth [mailto:seth@...]
> >
> > The addition of the "Shadow/Highlight" and "Photo Filter"
> Adjustments are
> > worth their weight.  CS is a major upgrade on the photo side of
> things.
> 
> I agree. Unless you're a purist who believes in doing nothing to an
> image
> after capture, each version of PS provides new and useful tools.
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Francis Ford

I use a mac and I know several photographers that want
to stay in 9.2 classic, never mind that mac has
finally turned its back on classic.All these guys are
really mad that they have to learn a new operating
system, an operating system that almost never
crashes.When I was a kid I used to foul around with
race cars.We were always trying something new.Today I
don't mind getting new software every two weeks. I
understand not wanting to buy new stuff all the
time.but if it saves a lot of time,you know, time is
money.Francis Ford
--- "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:

> > From: Seth [mailto:seth@...]
> >
> > The addition of the "Shadow/Highlight" and "Photo
> Filter" Adjustments are
> > worth their weight.  CS is a major upgrade on the
> photo side of things.
> 
> I agree. Unless you're a purist who believes in
> doing nothing to an image
> after capture, each version of PS provides new and
> useful tools.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
> 
> 


	
		
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Paul D. DeRocco writes:

> I agree. Unless you're a purist who believes in doing nothing to an image
> after capture, each version of PS provides new and useful tools.

The main things I do with photos are adjustments of curves, unsharp
masking, and so on, and all of these have been available for quite a
long time in Photoshop.  None of the newer stuff is really of any
interest or use from a straight photo standpoint.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Francis Ford writes:

> I use a mac and I know several photographers that want
> to stay in 9.2 classic, never mind that mac has
> finally turned its back on classic.All these guys are
> really mad that they have to learn a new operating
> system, an operating system that almost never
> crashes.When I was a kid I used to foul around with
> race cars.We were always trying something new.Today I
> don't mind getting new software every two weeks. I
> understand not wanting to buy new stuff all the
> time.but if it saves a lot of time,you know, time is
> money.Francis Ford

Some people see a computer as a tool, others see a computer as an end in
itself.  Those in the latter category often upgrade endlessly, since
they never actually do anything else with the machine and they are
mainly interested in twiddling with it.  Those in the former category
are better off never upgrading anything, since every upgrade
destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it down for hours or days, and
virtually no upgrades provide any useful or required new functionality.

In general, the more a business or individual depends on its computer
for work and play, the less frequently that computer gets updated or
upgraded.  Large production computer systems can be years behind the
times.

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by jnhugo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony G. 
Atkielski" <anthony@a...> wrote:
> 
> In general, the more a business or individual depends on its 
computer
> for work and play, the less frequently that computer gets updated 
or
> upgraded.  Large production computer systems can be years behind 
the
> times.

This sounds like a quote from Bizzaro Land-you know -where up is 
down, good is bad...
Jack

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Francis Ford

I teach photography at a local collage,and the first
thing I tell students is there is a million ways of
getting to heaven.I am not interested in making anyone
a younger version of me.I agree thats its the end
result not operating systems, pixels or f stops.The
incredible thing about the digital world is there are
a million ways of doing things.I never was a tech
head.I was always a Tri-x and D 76 guy.I have used the
same cameras to make a living for basically 35 years.I
do find it sort of ironic that we are roaring down
this digital path,but I find it exhilarating. It has
taken me a bit of time making digital simple,but I
think I have. Francis Ford
--- "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
wrote:

> Francis Ford writes:
> 
> > I use a mac and I know several photographers that
> want
> > to stay in 9.2 classic, never mind that mac has
> > finally turned its back on classic.All these guys
> are
> > really mad that they have to learn a new operating
> > system, an operating system that almost never
> > crashes.When I was a kid I used to foul around
> with
> > race cars.We were always trying something
> new.Today I
> > don't mind getting new software every two weeks. I
> > understand not wanting to buy new stuff all the
> > time.but if it saves a lot of time,you know, time
> is
> > money.Francis Ford
> 
> Some people see a computer as a tool, others see a
> computer as an end in
> itself.  Those in the latter category often upgrade
> endlessly, since
> they never actually do anything else with the
> machine and they are
> mainly interested in twiddling with it.  Those in
> the former category
> are better off never upgrading anything, since every
> upgrade
> destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it down
> for hours or days, and
> virtually no upgrades provide any useful or required
> new functionality.
> 
> In general, the more a business or individual
> depends on its computer
> for work and play, the less frequently that computer
> gets updated or
> upgraded.  Large production computer systems can be
> years behind the
> times.
> 
> 
> 


	
		
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Mark Savoia

Bummer.

On Mar 7, 2005, at 3:44 PM, John Vitollo wrote:

>
>  "Anthony G. Atkielski"� wrote:
>  > since every upgrade
>  > destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it down for hours or 
> days, and
>  > virtually no upgrades provide any useful or required new 
> functionality.
>
>
>  Can I have a couple of hits of what you're smoking?
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� 
> AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/7/05 12:37 PM, "Anthony G. Atkielski" sent the following verbage:

> 
> Some people see a computer as a tool, others see a computer as an end in
> itself.  Those in the latter category often upgrade endlessly, since
> they never actually do anything else with the machine and they are
> mainly interested in twiddling with it.

 Your statement is nonsense.

> Those in the former category
> are better off never upgrading anything, since every upgrade
> destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it down for hours or days, and
> virtually no upgrades provide any useful or required new functionality.

I guess they also don't cross the road to get to the other side.


> 
> In general, the more a business or individual depends on its computer
> for work and play, the less frequently that computer gets updated or
> upgraded.  Large production computer systems can be years behind the
> times.

Ditto, nonsense. If a press house isn't somewhat up to date I won't give
them my business. Never have I come across a business that is any farther
behind in upgrades to PS than one version. Equipment changes, software
advances change things, and our work flows are better off for it...

Carolyn

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by William John Smith

>    Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:44:40 -0000
>    From: "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...>
> Subject: Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography
>
>
> "Anthony G. Atkielski"  wrote:
>> since every upgrade
>> destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it down for hours or days, 
>> and
>> virtually no upgrades provide any useful or required new 
>> functionality.
>
>
> Can I have a couple of hits of what you're smoking?

I think it is called Windoze.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by mls99

Bravo, Carolyn!

Ron Erdody

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carolyn Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> On 3/7/05 12:37 PM, "Anthony G. Atkielski" sent the following 
verbage:
> 
> > 
> > Some people see a computer as a tool, others see a computer as 
an end in
> > itself.  Those in the latter category often upgrade endlessly, 
since
> > they never actually do anything else with the machine and they 
are
> > mainly interested in twiddling with it.
> 
>  Your statement is nonsense.
> 
> > Those in the former category
> > are better off never upgrading anything, since every upgrade
> > destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it down for hours or 
days, and
> > virtually no upgrades provide any useful or required new 
functionality.
> 
> I guess they also don't cross the road to get to the other side.
> 
> 
> > 
> > In general, the more a business or individual depends on its 
computer
> > for work and play, the less frequently that computer gets 
updated or
> > upgraded.  Large production computer systems can be years behind 
the
> > times.
> 
> Ditto, nonsense. If a press house isn't somewhat up to date I 
won't give
> them my business. Never have I come across a business that is any 
farther
> behind in upgrades to PS than one version. Equipment changes, 
software
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> advances change things, and our work flows are better off for it...
> 
> Carolyn

[Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-07 by Djon

There's a difference between printmaking and photography. They both
have their merits. "Purism" doesn't relate. 

Digital printing, like Ansel's work, often seems more like serigraphy
or etching than like photography...to me. I knew AA slightly, and a
little of how he worked. He wasn't especially focused on instants, he
was more into control and projection of his vision. 

More often photography has to do with instants in time, while by
necessity printmaking has to do with labor over a period of time.
Apples, oranges. Both might involve preconceptions, but the time
factor is more than incidental.

I think it's destructive to continually drive toward the ultimate
technical control (CSII is coming! EEEK!) because that makes the
activity, photography or printing, acquisative and consumerist. That's
precisely what Macbeth, Microsoft, Macintosh, and Adobe have in mind.


 Unless you're a purist who believes in doing nothing to an image
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> after capture, each version of PS provides new and useful tools.
 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-08 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Carolyn Frayn writes:

> Your statement is nonsense.

Well, now that you've told me that, I guess I can disregard all the
years of observation upon which it is based.

> If a press house isn't somewhat up to date I won't give
> them my business.

How would you know?

> Never have I come across a business that is any farther
> behind in upgrades to PS than one version.

A lot of people think they _have_ to upgrade, and so they do, and
software vendors cheerfully cash the checks.

> Equipment changes, software advances change things, and our work flows
> are better off for it...

That is only occasionally true.  Upgrades are a significant cost center
that doesn't always bring with it compensatory savings or increases in
revenue.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-08 by Seth

THAT is the most inane statement made lately.  Maybe just to start an
argument??

Upgrades DO provide usefullness and functionality. Access to more and better
memory, hard drives, devices (USB 2.0).

I suppose one could just print BO with a dot-matrix printer and say, "That's
good enough."

(Hey, that might be a good gimic!!  Peter Maxx move over!!)


==> "Anthony G. Atkielski"  wrote:
==>> since every upgrade
==>> destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it down for 
==hours or days, 
==>> and virtually no upgrades provide any useful or required new 
==>> functionality.
==>

AND,

C'mon!  Let's not start the MAC/PC stuff.  I have worked for both IBM and
Apple.  They both have problems!

I have gone nuts on my PC stuff.  When I was at the Pentagon last year we
had two high-end MAC systems go bonkers.  After THREE installs and seven
hours, a tech support guy said, "Oh, there's a fix for that," and gave us
the double-secret location to download it.

It happens on everything.
==>
==> Can I have a couple of hits of what you're smoking?
==
==I think it is called Windoze.


Seth

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-08 by Francis Ford

I am sure getting a kick out of this discussion.Again
anyone who says there is only one way of doing
something is dangerous.DOGMA DOGMA DOGMA......Pass the
crack pipe.Franci Ford
--- Seth <seth@...> wrote:
> THAT is the most inane statement made lately.  Maybe
> just to start an
> argument??
> 
> Upgrades DO provide usefullness and functionality.
> Access to more and better
> memory, hard drives, devices (USB 2.0).
> 
> I suppose one could just print BO with a dot-matrix
> printer and say, "That's
> good enough."
> 
> (Hey, that might be a good gimic!!  Peter Maxx move
> over!!)
> 
> 
> ==> "Anthony G. Atkielski"  wrote:
> ==>> since every upgrade
> ==>> destabilizes a machine and risks bringing it
> down for 
> ==hours or days, 
> ==>> and virtually no upgrades provide any useful or
> required new 
> ==>> functionality.
> ==>
> 
> AND,
> 
> C'mon!  Let's not start the MAC/PC stuff.  I have
> worked for both IBM and
> Apple.  They both have problems!
> 
> I have gone nuts on my PC stuff.  When I was at the
> Pentagon last year we
> had two high-end MAC systems go bonkers.  After
> THREE installs and seven
> hours, a tech support guy said, "Oh, there's a fix
> for that," and gave us
> the double-secret location to download it.
> 
> It happens on everything.
> ==>
> ==> Can I have a couple of hits of what you're
> smoking?
> ==
> ==I think it is called Windoze.
> 
> 
> Seth
> 
> 


	
		
__________________________________ 
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! 
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web 
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-08 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/8/05 12:22 AM, "Anthony G. Atkielski" sent the following verbage:

> 
> Carolyn Frayn writes:
> 
>> Your statement is nonsense.
> 
> Well, now that you've told me that, I guess I can disregard all the
> years of observation upon which it is based.

I apologize for that remark as it stands above.. But not the reason behind
it.

You lumped an entire user base into two categories. I think of my computers
as tools, and I upgrade, and I produce, I don't spend all my time
tinkering.. I took exception to your absolutism.

I could not produce what I do now if I was back on my little mac when first
introduced to my graphic arts division... I could not work as I do now back
on the DOS systems I used to debug for the sister end of same company.

As for Photoshop and older computer systems... gone are the days of having a
smoke while an image did a little rotate... Applying corrections or elements
and saving every iteration in case I have to go back... Creating alpha
channels to mask, and most recently, jumping back and forth between 8 and 16
bit images to correct them.

I've had a few years of observations myself. I turned my commodore 64
monitor into a tv, it was still useful, the computer? No. I realize you are
not referring to these old methods, but your statement seemed to relate a
total negative stance on any developments.

> 
>> Never have I come across a business that is any farther
>> behind in upgrades to PS than one version.
> 
> A lot of people think they _have_ to upgrade, and so they do, and
> software vendors cheerfully cash the checks.

Sure they do, and I cheerfully give them my money if the upgrade is in
keeping with my own workflow needs... They created something, I choose to
use it, therefore I'll pay for it, just like others pay me when I create
something. Sure there are upgrades not worth the cost, I can't remember, but
one I passed by in the PS line.

If you are producing what you wish in PS5.5, and have no need to upgrade for
a reason, then cool. If you are happy with your older smaller slower
systems, then cool. I remember PS5 being a great leap from my previous
versions. But I also remember how slow it all was.

I believe this stuff advances faster than anything before it... I agree it's
sometimes either hard to keep up or not worthwhile to some. But there are no
absolutes.

> 
>> Equipment changes, software advances change things, and our work flows
>> are better off for it...
> 
> That is only occasionally true.  Upgrades are a significant cost center
> that doesn't always bring with it compensatory savings or increases in
> revenue.
>

For me personally, the last two years of upgrades has given me a very
significant time savings.. And that in turn increases revenue. On top of
that, what I produce is more satisfying, I have the control I desire.
Choice, not conspiracy.

Can't imagine saving my 2Gig files to floppies either :) Another great leap
for me, PS Large Document Format file saving.. Yahoo.

Anyway, 'nuff of this, time to get back to work, got my eye on a sight laser
10" compound mitre saw... More consumerist nonsense I'm sure. Sorry to bore
the rest of you.

Carolyn

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-08 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/7/05 4:19 PM, "Djon" sent the following verbage:

> I think it's destructive to continually drive toward the ultimate
> technical control (CSII is coming! EEEK!) because that makes the
> activity, photography or printing, acquisative and consumerist. That's
> precisely what Macbeth, Microsoft, Macintosh, and Adobe have in mind.
> 


That's why I use pinhole cameras and paper negs. You know, that old Canon
Nikon slash Ilford Agfa conspiracy slash consumerist thing.

Upgrading for me is not a desire to gain or possess. Just a desire to
upgrade.... Ya, I looked it up.

One area where I see a huge difference in scanning 16 bit, is with my
pinhole negs. They themselves exhibit banding right in the neg... Some would
call it posterization I suppose. I use a zone plate for some, and the very
atmospheric transitions can be klunky when worked on. Scanning 16 bit RAW
gives me the neg as it is, scanning 8 bit adds to the banding.. The
difference is very  evident with even slight tonal corrections. Keeping the
image in 16 bit gray right thru to the print stage has really changed the
look of the prints.

Carolyn

[Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-08 by Djon

Carolyn, you needn't be so defensive. 

You asserted a real interest in images. You actually spoke of "the
look of the prints."  That's heartening and it's unusual on digital
forums. 

Very few posts on this or other digital photo forums talk about
images, they talk about gizmos, acquisition, technical distress and 
confusion. Browse the posts: you may or may not agree, it's not
important. Your deep roots in digital technology are a huge advantage
for you. 

Other fine photographers find digital technology alienating, pure
trouble. That's one reason I think it's important sometimes to
deemphasize the gizmo focus: Many the best film shooters have chosen
to avoid digital weirdness and simply stick with the analog technology
they rode to success. There are plenty of analogies in music.

To my way of thinking, photography (and music) has to do with
instants, real time. Printmaking, like recording, has to do with
labors after the fact. They may be equal, but it's uncommon for great
photography, like great music, to involve great labors after that
decisive moment. Just for a moment, think about the type of music that
involves the latest technology and the most post processing.

John


 has really changed the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> look of the prints.
> 
> Carolyn

[Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-08 by Djon

FF: You're 100% right. 

And everybody else is totally wrong, part of the Axis of Evil :-)

....oh...wait...
 
Francis Ford <francisford45@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I am sure getting a kick out of this discussion.Again
> anyone who says there is only one way of doing
> something is dangerous.DOGMA DOGMA DOGMA......Pass the
> crack pipe.Franci Ford

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Carolyn Frayn writes:

> You lumped an entire user base into two categories.

The reality is that the entire user base does fall roughly into those
two categories.  People are either interested in computers for their own
sake, or they're not.  The vast majority of people using computers today
are interested in computers as tools, not as ends in themselves.  This
is quite a change from the early days of computers, when the only people
using them were computer geeks (and a handful of accountants or others
who absolutely could not do their job without computers, even in those
days).

> I think of my computers as tools, and I upgrade, and I produce, I
> don't spend all my time tinkering.. I took exception to your
> absolutism.

Why do you upgrade?

> I could not produce what I do now if I was back on my little mac when
> first introduced to my graphic arts division... I could not work as I
> do now back on the DOS systems I used to debug for the sister end of
> same company.

So you've only upgraded twice, from the old little Mac to a new OS X
Mac, and from a MS-DOS system to Windows XP?

> As for Photoshop and older computer systems... gone are the days of
> having a smoke while an image did a little rotate... Applying
> corrections or elements and saving every iteration in case I have to
> go back... Creating alpha channels to mask, and most recently, jumping
> back and forth between 8 and 16 bit images to correct them.

I have yet to see a system that can do anything in Photoshop on a
reasonably large image with no delay at all.  For one thing, that would
require more memory than it is possible to configure on most systems.

There are still some impressionist filters that I have in Photoshop
which might well take an hour or more to finish even on the fastest PCs
(needless to say, I don't use them under such circumstances).

> I've had a few years of observations myself. I turned my commodore 64
> monitor into a tv, it was still useful, the computer? No. I realize
> you are not referring to these old methods, but your statement seemed
> to relate a total negative stance on any developments.

There's nothing wrong with upgrading when you _need_ to upgrade.  But
most people don't need to upgrade ... they simply do so because they've
been conditioned to do so by vendors, and they never stop to critically
assess the real need (if any) for upgrades.

The only people who look at upgrades with the critical view that they
merit are people who must maintain production, mission-critical systems,
or very large installed bases of computers.  These people cannot afford
to blow money on useless upgrades, nor can they afford the high risks
associated with them.

> Sure there are upgrades not worth the cost, I can't remember, but
> one I passed by in the PS line.

So you've upgraded with every other version?  What did you need in each
new version that you didn't already have?

> If you are producing what you wish in PS5.5, and have no need to
> upgrade for a reason, then cool. If you are happy with your older
> smaller slower systems, then cool. I remember PS5 being a great leap
> from my previous versions. But I also remember how slow it all was.

It does the job for me, particularly with photography, since photography
requires only a very limited set of tools (as compared with graphic art,
which requires a much larger set of tools).  Photoshop CS has
activation, which corrupts the boot sectors of disks and destabilizes my
system, and potentially prevents me from working on critical projects.
It adds nothing that would be useful to me in exchange for this.  It
costs too much money.  And Adobe still doesn't fix fundamental problems
with the product, such as memory management--it just adds more bells and
whistles with each release, because it's a cheaper, shorter path to
revenue.

> I believe this stuff advances faster than anything before it... I
> agree it's sometimes either hard to keep up or not worthwhile to some.
> But there are no absolutes.

The basics of image manipulation have not changed in many years.

> For me personally, the last two years of upgrades has given me a very
> significant time savings.. And that in turn increases revenue.

How much of a net gain did you calculate as the direct result of
upgrades during your last audit?

> On top of that, what I produce is more satisfying, I have the control
> I desire.

You've had control with every version of Photoshop.  If anything recent
versions do more and more on their own, without your control.

> Can't imagine saving my 2Gig files to floppies either :) Another great leap
> for me, PS Large Document Format file saving.. Yahoo.

You can't put 2 GB of information on a floppy, no matter what format you
use.

Re:I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by William Reeves Jr

Carolyn Frayn wrote:

Anyway, 'nuff of this, time to get back to work, got my eye on a sight laser 10" compound mitre saw... 


Anyone with an eye on a sight laser 10" compound miter saw can't be all bad

Bill






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Jon Witsell

So Anthony,

How is the B/W digital printing going? What system do you have at home now?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony G. Atkielski" 
<anthony@a...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Carolyn Frayn writes:
> 
> > You lumped an entire user base into two categories.
> 
> The reality is that the entire user base does fall roughly into those
> two categories.  People are either interested in computers for their own
> sake, or they're not.  The vast majority of people using computers today
> are interested in computers as tools, not as ends in themselves.  This
> is quite a change from the early days of computers, when the only people
> using them were computer geeks (and a handful of accountants or others
> who absolutely could not do their job without computers, even in those
> days).
> 
> > I think of my computers as tools, and I upgrade, and I produce, I
> > don't spend all my time tinkering.. I took exception to your
> > absolutism.
> 
> Why do you upgrade?
> 
> > I could not produce what I do now if I was back on my little mac when
> > first introduced to my graphic arts division... I could not work as I
> > do now back on the DOS systems I used to debug for the sister end of
> > same company.
> 
> So you've only upgraded twice, from the old little Mac to a new OS X
> Mac, and from a MS-DOS system to Windows XP?
> 
> > As for Photoshop and older computer systems... gone are the days of
> > having a smoke while an image did a little rotate... Applying
> > corrections or elements and saving every iteration in case I have to
> > go back... Creating alpha channels to mask, and most recently, jumping
> > back and forth between 8 and 16 bit images to correct them.
> 
> I have yet to see a system that can do anything in Photoshop on a
> reasonably large image with no delay at all.  For one thing, that would
> require more memory than it is possible to configure on most systems.
> 
> There are still some impressionist filters that I have in Photoshop
> which might well take an hour or more to finish even on the fastest PCs
> (needless to say, I don't use them under such circumstances).
> 
> > I've had a few years of observations myself. I turned my commodore 64
> > monitor into a tv, it was still useful, the computer? No. I realize
> > you are not referring to these old methods, but your statement seemed
> > to relate a total negative stance on any developments.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with upgrading when you _need_ to upgrade.  But
> most people don't need to upgrade ... they simply do so because they've
> been conditioned to do so by vendors, and they never stop to critically
> assess the real need (if any) for upgrades.
> 
> The only people who look at upgrades with the critical view that they
> merit are people who must maintain production, mission-critical systems,
> or very large installed bases of computers.  These people cannot afford
> to blow money on useless upgrades, nor can they afford the high risks
> associated with them.
> 
> > Sure there are upgrades not worth the cost, I can't remember, but
> > one I passed by in the PS line.
> 
> So you've upgraded with every other version?  What did you need in each
> new version that you didn't already have?
> 
> > If you are producing what you wish in PS5.5, and have no need to
> > upgrade for a reason, then cool. If you are happy with your older
> > smaller slower systems, then cool. I remember PS5 being a great leap
> > from my previous versions. But I also remember how slow it all was.
> 
> It does the job for me, particularly with photography, since photography
> requires only a very limited set of tools (as compared with graphic art,
> which requires a much larger set of tools).  Photoshop CS has
> activation, which corrupts the boot sectors of disks and destabilizes my
> system, and potentially prevents me from working on critical projects.
> It adds nothing that would be useful to me in exchange for this.  It
> costs too much money.  And Adobe still doesn't fix fundamental problems
> with the product, such as memory management--it just adds more bells and
> whistles with each release, because it's a cheaper, shorter path to
> revenue.
> 
> > I believe this stuff advances faster than anything before it... I
> > agree it's sometimes either hard to keep up or not worthwhile to some.
> > But there are no absolutes.
> 
> The basics of image manipulation have not changed in many years.
> 
> > For me personally, the last two years of upgrades has given me a very
> > significant time savings.. And that in turn increases revenue.
> 
> How much of a net gain did you calculate as the direct result of
> upgrades during your last audit?
> 
> > On top of that, what I produce is more satisfying, I have the control
> > I desire.
> 
> You've had control with every version of Photoshop.  If anything recent
> versions do more and more on their own, without your control.
> 
> > Can't imagine saving my 2Gig files to floppies either :) Another great leap
> > for me, PS Large Document Format file saving.. Yahoo.
> 
> You can't put 2 GB of information on a floppy, no matter what format you
> use.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/8/05 4:49 PM, "Djon" sent the following verbage:

> 
> 
> Carolyn, you needn't be so defensive.

I wasn't being defensive John.

> 
> You asserted a real interest in images. You actually spoke of "the
> look of the prints."  That's heartening and it's unusual on digital
> forums. 
> Very few posts on this or other digital photo forums talk about
> images, they talk about gizmos, acquisition, technical distress and
> confusion. Browse the posts: you may or may not agree, it's not
> important. Your deep roots in digital technology are a huge advantage
> for you. 

I've been on the lists for longer than I care to remember, I understand what
you mean. But don't understand what it has to do with upgrading PS.

> 
> Other fine photographers find digital technology alienating, pure
> trouble. That's one reason I think it's important sometimes to
> deemphasize the gizmo focus: Many the best film shooters have chosen
> to avoid digital weirdness and simply stick with the analog technology
> they rode to success. There are plenty of analogies in music.

I use many methods, not all digital, and not all traditional. One reason I
love my pinholes, my holgas, the non gizmo focus for me is on the capture
end usually. But I don't consider a PS upgrade a 'gizmo', I thought that was
the point of this thread. For me, it allows me to get all I want and all
that my neg's, paper or film, have to offer. This wasn't about taking the
digital plunge, it was about upgrading while inside of it.

> 
> To my way of thinking, photography (and music) has to do with
> instants, real time. Printmaking, like recording, has to do with
> labors after the fact. They may be equal, but it's uncommon for great
> photography, like great music, to involve great labors after that
> decisive moment. Just for a moment, think about the type of music that
> involves the latest technology and the most post processing.

Not sure what this has to do with upgrading John.. But you have basically
squashed most of my personal body of work.  I'm going to go back to the
topic of this thread, upgrading Photoshop. It helps my images, it helps my
clients images, so therefore I recommend it. If someone is scanning neg's or
prints, or bringing in a digital file, and want to get the most from what
they have brought in, then the capabilities in PSCS are worth the upgrade.
In my opinion. It was a simple recommendation. I am however still pondering
"real" photography... I'm thinking, mine must be "fake". Cool.

And for the record, in my opinion, the final look and feel of say, a gum
bichromate, is certainly very much part of the 'post processing' involved,
and not only focused on the 'decisive moment', they work together... That
wasn't defensive either, just an opinion, like yours.

Carolyn

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/8/05 5:59 PM, "Anthony G. Atkielski" sent the following verbage:

> 
> The reality is that the entire user base does fall roughly into those
> two categories.  People are either interested in computers for their own
> sake, or they're not.

I don't even understand your point.


> The vast majority of people using computers today
> are interested in computers as tools, not as ends in themselves.  This
> is quite a change from the early days of computers, when the only people
> using them were computer geeks (and a handful of accountants or others
> who absolutely could not do their job without computers, even in those
> days).

Ya well, software has changed a little.


> Why do you upgrade?

Argh.

> So you've only upgraded twice, from the old little Mac to a new OS X
> Mac, and from a MS-DOS system to Windows XP?

Nope.. There were many in between.. Macs and OS's... But never windows
thanks. DOS to mac, to mac, to mac, and so on.


> 
> I have yet to see a system that can do anything in Photoshop on a
> reasonably large image with no delay at all.  For one thing, that would
> require more memory than it is possible to configure on most systems.

I didn't say there were no delays, I said it was much faster.


> 
> There's nothing wrong with upgrading when you _need_ to upgrade.  But
> most people don't need to upgrade ... they simply do so because they've
> been conditioned to do so by vendors, and they never stop to critically
> assess the real need (if any) for upgrades.

So we're all sheep then. Conditioned and simple minded, good to know.

> 
> The only people who look at upgrades with the critical view that they
> merit are people who must maintain production, mission-critical systems,
> or very large installed bases of computers.  These people cannot afford
> to blow money on useless upgrades, nor can they afford the high risks
> associated with them.

What does that have to do with upgrading photoshop..  And who dictates they
are useless. 


> 
> So you've upgraded with every other version?  What did you need in each
> new version that you didn't already have?

No, I passed up one version of PS, the other software upgrades I passed up I
can't remember, that's what I said.


> 
> It does the job for me, particularly with photography, since photography
> requires only a very limited set of tools (as compared with graphic art,
> which requires a much larger set of tools).

Your photography then, there are other sorts out here.


> Photoshop CS has
> activation, which corrupts the boot sectors of disks and destabilizes my
> system, and potentially prevents me from working on critical projects.
> It adds nothing that would be useful to me in exchange for this.  It
> costs too much money.  And Adobe still doesn't fix fundamental problems
> with the product, such as memory management--it just adds more bells and
> whistles with each release, because it's a cheaper, shorter path to
> revenue.

Do you print? THAT costs money too... Bells and whistles to one are
worthwhile tools to another.



> How much of a net gain did you calculate as the direct result of
> upgrades during your last audit?

That would be none of your business.


> You've had control with every version of Photoshop.  If anything recent
> versions do more and more on their own, without your control.

Oh yes, they're taking over.. Turn off adobe call home.

> 
>> Can't imagine saving my 2Gig files to floppies either :) Another great leap
>> for me, PS Large Document Format file saving.. Yahoo.
> 
> You can't put 2 GB of information on a floppy, no matter what format you
> use.

I know. That was my point.

Well, this has been fun... Don't know how I got involved, but I'm stepping
down...  I know you love this argument stuff Anthony, I don't. It gets old
fast and I have work to do.

Carolyn

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Carolyn Frayn writes:

> I don't even understand your point.

The point is that upgrades are usually a waste of time and money.

> Ya well, software has changed a little.

Not really.  It is always getting more bloated and complicated, but
that's about it.  The complaints of IT managers today echo the
complaints of IT managers forty years ago.

> Argh.

You don't really know, do you?  A new version came out, and you bought
it.  No real analysis of cost vs. benefit.  That's how most computer
users do things, thanks to heavy conditioning by computer hardware and
software vendors.

In the olden days, before times got tough, people were conditioned to do
the same thing with cars.  That's not as common today, although a few
people still feel they have to buy a new car simply because there are
new cars to buy.

> Nope.. There were many in between.

So what were the reasons for each incremental upgrade?  There are only a
few logically valid reasons for upgrading:

- An upgrade fixes a bug that interferes with your work.
- An upgrade provides a feature that will be essential to your work.
- An upgrade is forced by compatibility issues with other people.
- An upgrade is forced by other upgrades (hardware or software).

Note that features _essential_ to your work are extremely rare.  Most
people are emotionally attracted to new features, but they don't
actually _need_ them.

> I didn't say there were no delays, I said it was much faster.

Speed gains are usually due to hardware upgrades.  I don't recall ever
seeing speed gains with an upgrade of Photoshop, since each version
tends to be more bloated than its predecessor.

> So we're all sheep then. Conditioned and simple minded, good to know.

Yes.  That's the current IT business model for desktop systems.

> What does that have to do with upgrading photoshop.

A great deal, since for some people Photoshop is part of a
mission-critical workflow.

> And who dictates they are useless.

It's not up to anyone to prove them useless; it's up to vendors to prove
them useful, notably with respect to upgrades.  Unless they can count on
users upgrading blindly to each new version.

> Your photography then, there are other sorts out here.

The other sorts are more like digital art.  If all you are doing is
emulating what used to be done in the darkroom, the functions you need
are pretty simple.  If you are manipulating images beyond that, it's not
just photography any more.

> Do you print?

I usually have a lab print, as it's cheaper and the quality is better
(for color photos).  I can print my own black and white, but until I
dedicate a printer to B&W printing, the quality will not be optimal.

> THAT costs money too... Bells and whistles to one are worthwhile tools
> to another.

It's surprising how few bells and whistles can withstand the scrutiny of
careful analysis, however.

> That would be none of your business.

No need to give it, as I know there was none.  You never audited it,
anyway.  Nobody ever does.  If they did, they certainly wouldn't be
upgrading all the time.  But Microsoft, Adobe, Intel, AMD, and other
vendors appreciate your business.

> Oh yes, they're taking over.. Turn off adobe call home.

That has always been the trend with all software, including Photoshop.

> Well, this has been fun... Don't know how I got involved, but I'm
> stepping down... I know you love this argument stuff Anthony, I don't.
> It gets old fast and I have work to do.

Right.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in realphotography

2005-03-09 by Ken Carney

> I use many methods, not all digital, and not all traditional. 
> One reason I love my pinholes, my holgas, the non gizmo focus 
> for me is on the capture end usually. 

	I also am fond of my Holgas, pinholes, and now...the Lensbaby
(www.lensbabies.com).  It is a kind of combination of the Holga, pinhole and
the plunger-cam http://tinyurl.com/6te4m.  I convert the DSLR raw files to
b&w and then apply a palladium or kallitype filter.

	
Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/8/05 10:34 PM, "Anthony G. Atkielski" sent the following verbage:

> 
>> Argh.
> 
> You don't really know, do you?

Do you talk to everyone like this? Of course I know. I was arghing the fact
that you repeat your questions, even though I have already answered them.

Enough Anthony.

Goodnight,
Carolyn

[Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by jsdriggers

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony G. Atkielski" 
<anthony@a...> wrote:
> Jon Witsell writes:
> 
> > How is the B/W digital printing going?
> 
> I haven't been doing much photography lately, due to budget and time
> constraints.
> 
> > What system do you have at home now?
> 
> I do photo work on a Windows XP system, with Photoshop 5.02.

A bumper stricker for this worn out thread:

  "My photoshop CS can beatup your Photoshop 5.02."

Let's face it. Anthony is happy with his setup and thinks that anyone who sees value in 
upgrading beyond that is not doing "real" photography and that they are just equipment/
software junkies.  That's probably true for some people, but probably not true for most of 
the people who are on this list and who have upgraded to CS.

But life, according to Anthony, is my way or the highway.  So let's leave him standing out 
there on the highway alone while the rest of us move on.  It's time for this thread to die.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in realphotography

2005-03-09 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/8/05 10:36 PM, "Ken Carney" sent the following verbage:

> 
>> I use many methods, not all digital, and not all traditional.
>> One reason I love my pinholes, my holgas, the non gizmo focus
>> for me is on the capture end usually.
> 
> I also am fond of my Holgas, pinholes, and now...the Lensbaby
> (www.lensbabies.com).  It is a kind of combination of the Holga, pinhole and
> the plunger-cam http://tinyurl.com/6te4m.  I convert the DSLR raw files to
> b&w and then apply a palladium or kallitype filter.

I saw an ad for that at the camera store.. Pretty cool.  Don't tell Mark he
isn't doing real photography...

Carolyn

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Seth

Anthony-

How about giving it a rest!!!

Even using the term "real photography" is argumentative and offensive.

I think all understand your view by now.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Anthony G. Atkielski [mailto:anthony@...] 

==Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification 
==for CS in real photography
==
==
==Carolyn Frayn writes:
==
==> You lumped an entire user base into two categories.
==
==The reality is that the entire user base does fall roughly

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Bob Frost

Sorry for continuing this one; I didn't see the requests to stop until after 
I had pressed the button.

So, please Anthony, DON'T reply.

Bob Frost.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Frost" <bob@...>



Anthony,

Why on earth did you upgrade to WinXP? What was wrong with Windows 3.1? ;)

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>

I do photo work on a Windows XP system, with Photoshop 5.02.

Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by William John Smith

>
>
> Anthony,
>
> Why on earth did you upgrade to WinXP? What was wrong with Windows 
> 3.1? ;)
>
> Bob Frost.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
>
> I do photo work on a Windows XP system, with Photoshop 5.02.


Touche!  Point and match goes to Bob Frost.  Now lets move on to
something more real - like making images.

William


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Peter Gorwin

John,

You make a valuable  point that the image is of most importance, and 
that we mustn't throw the baby out with bath water by
getting bogged down in process.  However, I strongly disagree with your 
statement below.  Don't forget, it was Ansel Adams  who compared
the negative to the musical score,the print to the performance.  As an 
artist that began as a concert pianist, he certainly didn't minimize 
the
importance of print manipulation.  The print definitely was not 
secondary to the "decisive moment" for him (if you want to equate 
waiting for hours
for the proper light to makean image with Cartier-Bresson).  Likewise, 
many digital photographers love  the fact that they have added time to 
dodge and burn,
to use just one simpleexample, instead of having their print fog during 
extended print manipulation or during the process of blending images.
(By the way, I have spent 17 years in a wet darkroom, would never 
divest myself of  my darkroom equipment, and use an 4X5 enlarger with a 
cold head,
but, again, I am also thrilled with the luxury of time that CS allots 
me  during the creative process.) I bet you don't settle for straight 
prints.

Peter G.

P.S.  I don't think Jerry Uelsmann would agree with the below statement 
either.  He's embraced the digital process.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:49 PM, Djon wrote:

> . . . but it's uncommon for great
> photography, like great music, to involve great labors after that
> decisive moment. Just for a moment, think about the type of music that
> involves the latest technology and the most post processing.
>
> John
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-09 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Bob Frost writes:

> Why on earth did you upgrade to WinXP?  What was wrong with Windows 3.1?

I was previously running Windows NT.  I had to "upgrade" to Windows XP
and a new machine because a new scanner supported only firewire, which
was not available on the older hardware with the older OS.

decisive moments, ansel etc

2005-03-09 by Djon

Peter, Ansel would surely have loved digital technology and his
technical assistants certainly would have had the latest gizmos and
applications. But in that same vein, he did a lot of second-rate work
with Polaroid because he claimed to believe it had a future (wrong)
and he was PAID to do it. Surely Adobe would pay his ghost. 

By contrast, Cartier Bresson and Sebastao Salgado relied/rely entirely
on technicians. Their work is/was camerawork, no printmaking. And they
are/were Ansel's equals.  Epson's online university...the star
photographers turn their files over to technicians for printing. 

All I meant to say is that there is a significant dichotomy between
printmaking and photography, just as there are two sides of the brain.

I love digital technology too. As you can see. But I'm acutely aware
of the negative side, which involves regular consumerism and steep
learning curves, neither of which reliably raise the level of
output...CS, for example.

David Douglas Duncan, a name few here may  know, destroyed most of
Robert Capa's D-Day photos while a lab tech at Life. Which may say  
something about photography Vs technicial work :-)




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Gorwin
<pshelleyg@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> John,
> 
> You make a valuable  point that the image is of most importance, and 
> that we mustn't throw the baby out with bath water by
> getting bogged down in process.  However, I strongly disagree with your 
> statement below.  Don't forget, it was Ansel Adams  who compared
> the negative to the musical score,the print to the performance.  As an 
> artist that began as a concert pianist, he certainly didn't minimize 
> the
> importance of print manipulation.  The print definitely was not 
> secondary to the "decisive moment" for him (if you want to equate 
> waiting for hours
> for the proper light to makean image with Cartier-Bresson).  Likewise, 
> many digital photographers love  the fact that they have added time to 
> dodge and burn,
> to use just one simpleexample, instead of having their print fog during 
> extended print manipulation or during the process of blending images.
> (By the way, I have spent 17 years in a wet darkroom, would never 
> divest myself of  my darkroom equipment, and use an 4X5 enlarger with a 
> cold head,
> but, again, I am also thrilled with the luxury of time that CS allots 
> me  during the creative process.) I bet you don't settle for straight 
> prints.
> 
> Peter G.
> 
> P.S.  I don't think Jerry Uelsmann would agree with the below statement 
> either.  He's embraced the digital process.
> 
> On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:49 PM, Djon wrote:
> 
> > . . . but it's uncommon for great
> > photography, like great music, to involve great labors after that
> > decisive moment. Just for a moment, think about the type of music that
> > involves the latest technology and the most post processing.
> >
> > John
> >

RE: [Digital BW] decisive moments, ansel etc

2005-03-10 by Seth

Hey, now, I know DDD.  AND, I did the same thing with Vietnam stuff.

I was merrily processing my stuff when back in San Diego, but couldn't
figure out why the temperatures ahd changed.

When I watched the emulsion float out of the Nikkor tanks, someone THEN told
me they had switched to E-6.  Of course, they had given us E-4 film to
shoot.

Seth

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Djon [mailto:westsidemaurice@...] 
==
==David Douglas Duncan, a name few here may  know, destroyed 
==most of Robert Capa's D-Day photos while a lab tech at Life. 
==Which may say something about photography Vs technicial work :-)
==
==

justification or not.....

2005-03-10 by matt@matthaber.com

It's time to end this.
I stopped reading messages with this title days ago. I'm quite tired of
what's become spam in my inbox.
-matt

Re: [Digital BW] justification or not.....

2005-03-10 by Carolyn Frayn

On 3/10/05 9:13 AM, "matt@..." sent the following verbage:

> 
> It's time to end this.
> I stopped reading messages with this title days ago.

Perhaps that's the reason you didn't notice it has already ended. And not
because one person yelled. Trying to make sense with anyone who either
ignores opinions made and writes circles around them, or anyone who simply
wants to send unwarranted insults is reason enough to stop. Last time I
checked, and granted I haven't been here very often the last two years,
Antonis and Martin were still the moderators.. They have always ended
threads they choose to end, that have gone astray or have become insulting,
with respect and dignity.

Carolyn

Re: Re: Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-11 by Christer Rosewelll

Sorry all...

I'm on the road and too late realized I'm two days behind everybody 
else on the thread...=*^)

Hopefully it's dead by the time you all read this

Christer


			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell

			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
		  	   3.5 million visitors to date..


On Mar 8, 2005, at 11:28 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>    From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real 
> photography
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: I don't know a justification for CS in real photography

2005-03-15 by Richard Smallfield

At 04:23 AM Tuesday 3/8/2005, you wrote:
>You took the word right out off my mouth.In CS I can
>do an image in about 10 minutes, and that is with a
>lot of adjustments.Just the Shadow/Highlight tool is
>worth having CS.The filebrowser,the list could goes on
>and on.The basic idea of photoshop is the same but CS
>is well worth it.Francis Ford

I have just come across a compelling reason to upgrade, if you use a DSLR - www.dxo.com - this software will work wonders correcting distortions while converting to Adobe DNG RAW format. 

Unfortunately my PC is also too old to use the DxO software, so I'm stuck with the status quo for the time being.

Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
   --General John B. Sedgwick, 1864 - last words

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