Digital BW, The Print

I'm not taking sides on the film/digital debate, but whether a CD 
will last 300 years really isn't the issue.  The issue is whether 
anyone will have a CD reader in 20 years.  Consider that 8 track 
tapes, 78 rpm records and 8" floppies are already a problem.  It 
really doesn't matter if it is digital or analog; the issue is the 
technology required to retrieve the information and the availability 
of that technology.

I know a large research library that has been scanning all its art 
for years.  They recently started archiving to DVD, and at the same 
time are converting all their earlier CD archives to DVD.  They 
figure they will go through this process -- converting their entire 
archive to a newer technology -- every ten years.

I also have contacts within the film/movie studio world.  They know 
how to save film for 50 or 100 years.  They are still scratching 
their heads about digital.

My archive friend at UIC is dealing with this issue. Their commitment 
is 1000 years for digital files but no one has any clue what they're 
really getting into.  Best bet; run your edition of 9 prints sooner 
than later and hope a gallery with a cold vault will snap a couple up. 
CDs DVDs�there will still be old and used readers in  30 years (if the 
world still has any oil left and our civilization still exists that is) 
and adapters will most likely be around. I'm guessing that someday 
digitally engraved vinyl (large records) (or maybe lead) will come 
on-line. People will realize very thin emulsions (even "gold" coated 
ones) just don't cut if for permanence and they'll go back to the heavy 
mechanical stuff for long-term storage.

Take care all, Walker

On Mar 17, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Blaine Cavena wrote:

>
>  I'm not taking sides on the film/digital debate, but whether a CD
>  will last 300 years really isn't the issue.� The issue is whether
>  anyone will have a CD reader in 20 years.� Consider that 8 track
>  tapes, 78 rpm records and 8" floppies are already a problem.� It
>  really doesn't matter if it is digital or analog; the issue is the
>  technology required to retrieve the information and the availability
>  of that technology.
>
>  I know a large research library that has been scanning all its art
>  for years.� They recently started archiving to DVD, and at the same
>  time are converting all their earlier CD archives to DVD.� They
>  figure they will go through this process -- converting their entire
>  archive to a newer technology -- every ten years.
>
>  I also have contacts within the film/movie studio world.� They know
>  how to save film for 50 or 100 years.� They are still scratching
>  their heads about digital.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
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> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I had the same concern and doing a bit of research I found this
article which will help you at least decide on the brand of dvd (only
covers dvd's) that use quality manufacturers.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm

I have a question in to the writer asking about longevity.

Maybe Wilhelm could figure out a test for this.

> 
> I'm not taking sides on the film/digital debate, but whether a CD 
> will last 300 years really isn't the issue.  The issue is whether 
> anyone will have a CD reader in 20 years.  Consider that 8 track 
> tapes, 78 rpm records and 8" floppies are already a problem.  It 
> really doesn't matter if it is digital or analog; the issue is the 
> technology required to retrieve the information and the availability 
> of that technology.
> 
> I know a large research library that has been scanning all its art 
> for years.  They recently started archiving to DVD, and at the same 
> time are converting all their earlier CD archives to DVD.  They 
> figure they will go through this process -- converting their entire 
> archive to a newer technology -- every ten years.
> 
> I also have contacts within the film/movie studio world.  They know 
> how to save film for 50 or 100 years.  They are still scratching 
> their heads about digital.

Blaine Cavena writes:

> I'm not taking sides on the film/digital debate, but whether a CD
> will last 300 years really isn't the issue.  The issue is whether 
> anyone will have a CD reader in 20 years.

There will be millions of CD readers in 20 years; that's not going to be
a problem.

The real question is whether or not anyone will have bothered to record
photos to CDs in the first place.  Right now, nobody is backing anything
up.

Oh god here we go again...how many (or few) months has it been since we went
through this last time?

> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:59:55 +0100
> To: Blaine Cavena <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Archiving digital -- it's not the media, it's the
> device
> 
> 
> Blaine Cavena writes:
> 
>> I'm not taking sides on the film/digital debate, but whether a CD
>> will last 300 years really isn't the issue.  The issue is whether
>> anyone will have a CD reader in 20 years.
> 
> There will be millions of CD readers in 20 years; that's not going to be
> a problem.
> 
> The real question is whether or not anyone will have bothered to record
> photos to CDs in the first place.  Right now, nobody is backing anything
> up.
>

Slight diversion from the film v digital debate

 

I don't use CDs any longer since hard drives are cheap and big. CD's were
always a pain. I always did copies of copies. I could never catalogue them
satisfactorily

 

I have 2 S-ATA 300gb drives that I use purely for photo data. I have two
areas on disk a) RAW Digital/scanned negatives b) Projects

 

I catalogue everything (I use Portfolio - I don't know if it's best, it's
just what I use) including reference to film originals

 

Every night I synchronise the 2 S-ATA drives. In 15 years I have only had
one hard disk failure, but I'm not taking any chances. In future I might do
a network copy in case the PC catches fire. I live in Switzerland, so I have
a nuclear shelter in the basement, and I may copy to a removable disk and
put it in there - just in case. (You can take these suggestions with a pinch
of salt. My day job is in IT, so I'm paranoid about backups)

 

If I run out of space, I'll buy more, bigger hard drives. If hard drive file
formats or hardware look in danger of becoming obsolete, I'll buy the new
stuff and copy it. Better than copying 10000 CDs. Before I die, I'll tell my
family to ensure future generations do the same ;)

 

  _____  

From: Blaine Cavena [mailto:becavena@...] 
Sent: 17 March 2005 19:29
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Archiving digital -- it's not the media, it's the
device

 


I'm not taking sides on the film/digital debate, but whether a CD 
will last 300 years really isn't the issue.  The issue is whether 
anyone will have a CD reader in 20 years.  Consider that 8 track 
tapes, 78 rpm records and 8" floppies are already a problem.  It 
really doesn't matter if it is digital or analog; the issue is the 
technology required to retrieve the information and the availability 
of that technology.

I know a large research library that has been scanning all its art 
for years.  They recently started archiving to DVD, and at the same 
time are converting all their earlier CD archives to DVD.  They 
figure they will go through this process -- converting their entire 
archive to a newer technology -- every ten years.

I also have contacts within the film/movie studio world.  They know 
how to save film for 50 or 100 years.  They are still scratching 
their heads about digital.





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they are often being updated.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard writes:

> Every night I synchronise the 2 S-ATA drives. In 15 years I have only had
> one hard disk failure, but I'm not taking any chances. In future I might do
> a network copy in case the PC catches fire. I live in Switzerland, so I have
> a nuclear shelter in the basement, and I may copy to a removable disk and
> put it in there - just in case.

Yes.  The major weakness with your current set-up is that you have both
disks in the same physical location--if the PC is destroyed by fire, you
lose everything, no matter how reliable the disks.

If one or both disks were removable, you could synchronize them daily
and then remove one and put it in a safe place.  This would be just as
good as any other form of backup.

The other question is: How do you archive? For archives, you need simple
media that will last a long, long time, and complete disk drives are not
in that category (also, they are much too expensive for archives).

> If I run out of space, I'll buy more, bigger hard drives. If hard drive file
> formats or hardware look in danger of becoming obsolete, I'll buy the new
> stuff and copy it. Better than copying 10000 CDs. Before I die, I'll tell my
> family to ensure future generations do the same ;)

At some point, you need to archive somehow.  Disks will not grow
infinitely in size (as it is, they are already among the
slowest-developing parts of computers).

This is purely a personal solution that suits my "Archival" needs. It's not
intended to be a contribution to the "Archival Question". 

I don't see why an archive needs to be something that is created once and
then kept for ever and ever. Just keep replacing the disks, copying to
larger disks, new technology etc. The only criteria is that something
originating in 2005 is available in 2105

> 
> <html><body>
> 
> 
> <tt>
> Richard writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Every night I synchronise the 2 S-ATA drives. In 15 years I have only
had<BR>
> > one hard disk failure, but I'm not taking any chances. In future I
might do<BR>
> > a network copy in case the PC catches fire. I live in Switzerland, so I
have<BR>
> > a nuclear shelter in the basement, and I may copy to a removable disk
and<BR>
> > put it in there - just in case.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes.  The major weakness with your current set-up is that you have
both<BR>
> disks in the same physical location--if the PC is destroyed by fire,
you<BR>
> lose everything, no matter how reliable the disks.<BR>
> <BR>
> If one or both disks were removable, you could synchronize them daily<BR>
> and then remove one and put it in a safe place.  This would be just as<BR>
> good as any other form of backup.<BR>
> <BR>
> The other question is: How do you archive? For archives, you need
simple<BR>
> media that will last a long, long time, and complete disk drives are
not<BR>
> in that category (also, they are much too expensive for archives).<BR>
> <BR>
> > If I run out of space, I'll buy more, bigger hard drives. If hard drive
file<BR>
> > formats or hardware look in danger of becoming obsolete, I'll buy the
new<BR>
> > stuff and copy it. Better than copying 10000 CDs. Before I die, I'll
tell my<BR>
> > family to ensure future generations do the same ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> At some point, you need to archive somehow.  Disks will not grow<BR>
> infinitely in size (as it is, they are already among the<BR>
> slowest-developing parts of computers).<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
> 
> <br><br>
> <tt>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
as they are often being updated.<BR>
> <BR>
> <a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint">http://gro
ups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint</a><BR>
> <BR>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.<BR>
> <BR>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:<BR>
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.<BR>
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.<BR>
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.<BR>
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files
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p://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/</a><BR>
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?OWNER? AND
?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
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Exactly,

Remember a couple of years ago when hardly anyone had dvd burners?
Can you imagine how much data and on how small a storage media is going 
to exist even 5 years from now! Not to mention how fast these writers will be. I 
imagine we will be able to write everthing we have ever done on a few discs 
at lightning speed and make as many copies as we want. Now whether we 
will even want to preserve that information is another story. The other day I 
had an old floppy lying around and someone asked me, "what is that for". 
Having said that there are plenty of cd brands that shouldn't be used at all in 
my opinion, such as Staples, Office Depot and the like. I've seen some cds 
wear out in a couple of weeks.

John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "r.tugwell@a..." <
r.tugwell@a...> wrote:
> This is purely a personal solution that suits my "Archival" needs. It's not
> intended to be a contribution to the "Archival Question". 
> 
> I don't see why an archive needs to be something that is created once and
> then kept for ever and ever. Just keep replacing the disks, copying to
> larger disks, new technology etc. The only criteria is that something
> originating in 2005 is available in 2105
> 
> > 
> > <html><body>
> > 
> > 
> > <tt>
> > Richard writes:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Every night I synchronise the 2 S-ATA drives. In 15 years I have only
> had<BR>
> > > one hard disk failure, but I'm not taking any chances. In future I
> might do<BR>
> > > a network copy in case the PC catches fire. I live in Switzerland, so I
> have<BR>
> > > a nuclear shelter in the basement, and I may copy to a removable disk
> and<BR>
> > > put it in there - just in case.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Yes.  The major weakness with your current set-up is that you have
> both<BR>
> > disks in the same physical location--if the PC is destroyed by fire,
> you<BR>
> > lose everything, no matter how reliable the disks.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > If one or both disks were removable, you could synchronize them daily<
BR>
> > and then remove one and put it in a safe place.  This would be just as<
BR>
> > good as any other form of backup.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > The other question is: How do you archive? For archives, you need
> simple<BR>
> > media that will last a long, long time, and complete disk drives are
> not<BR>
> > in that category (also, they are much too expensive for archives).<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > If I run out of space, I'll buy more, bigger hard drives. If hard drive
> file<BR>
> > > formats or hardware look in danger of becoming obsolete, I'll buy the
> new<BR>
> > > stuff and copy it. Better than copying 10000 CDs. Before I die, I'll
> tell my<BR>
> > > family to ensure future generations do the same ;)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > At some point, you need to archive somehow.  Disks will not grow<BR>
> > infinitely in size (as it is, they are already among the<BR>
> > slowest-developing parts of computers).<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > </tt>
> > 
> > <br><br>
> > <tt>
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
> as they are often being updated.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint">http://
gro
> ups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint</a><BR>
> > <BR>
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:<BR>
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.<BR>
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.<BR>
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.<BR>
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files
> section:<BR>
> > <a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/">
htt
> p://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/</a><BR>
> > <BR>
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE ?OWNER? AND
> ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES 
FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES 
(EVEN IF THE 
> ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO 
GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING 
FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR 
TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO
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Virtually any digital medium will be readily duplicated as technology
generations shift, though CDs and DVDs are lossy if they're ignored
for too long. 

I back up my external HD on another external HD and periodically dump
all of that onto CD. But it's my prints that matter. 

Our BEST archival medium is the finished print, just as it was for
Steiglitz and Ansel. Robert Capa, my personal photo hero, never cared
much about the artistry of the print itself...so his best archive is
the books and magazines (Life) in which he published. 

> Can you imagine how much data and on how small a storage media is going 
> to exist even 5 years from now!  

IMO the most promising device is Sony's Mini Disc, which is far more
powerful than it was five years ago. It's said to be more archival
than any CD.  

 I've seen some cds 
> wear out in a couple of weeks.

Discount branded discs are said to be made by the same mysterian
contract bidders that make Sony. You can't rely on brand names because
they outsource the manufacture to third world countries. Sony doesn't
usually make Sony.
> 
 
>  >

Djon,

Do you or anyone else know the potential life of images stored on CF or 
similar cards? These are getting so big so quickly, that I could imagine 
them being storage devices in a few years - if the info is reasonably 
permanent on them.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Djon" <westsidemaurice@...>


> Can you imagine how much data and on how small a storage media is going
> to exist even 5 years from now!

IMO the most promising device is Sony's Mini Disc, which is far more
powerful than it was five years ago. It's said to be more archival
than any CD.

I've not read about CF card permanence but Sony Corp says MD
(minidisc) is more secure than CDs and DVDs. IF true, probably only as
long as Sony is the sole manufacturer.

There seem no virtue in reduction to postage stamp size...practical 
human scale and handling seems more appealing than continued
miniaturization. Consider the attractiveness (to some) of the
intentionally relatively large and very heavy Canon pro-1 and Olympus
8080), or the preference by many middle-aged photogs for cameras with
knobs as opposed to tiny buttons with squinty readouts. In many ways
the old Leicas and SLRs were better human designs than current digital
cameras.

I like a storage medium holds everything I need, that's about the size
of a Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. My current two external HDs add
up to about that size and capability. Presently they back each other
up, but as data accumulates I will cheaply add two more or replace
them with bigger capacities with no significant increase in desktop
(like two Websters instead of one)...until a better technology of the
same high convenience comes along.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Djon,
> 
> Do you or anyone else know the potential life of images stored on CF or 
> similar cards? These are getting so big so quickly, that I could
imagine 
> them being storage devices in a few years - if the info is reasonably 
> permanent on them.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Djon" <westsidemaurice@y...>
> 
> 
> > Can you imagine how much data and on how small a storage media is
going

> > to exist even 5 years from now!
> 
> IMO the most promising device is Sony's Mini Disc, which is far more
> powerful than it was five years ago. It's said to be more archival
> than any CD.

I'm with you, Richard.  I use mirrored drives so if one drops dead, the
other can create a new one.  NOT a difficult task or voodoo in this day and
age.

I still use DVD as an off-site media, though I have some external drives
also.

Seth

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Richard [mailto:r.tugwell@...] 
=
== 
==
==Slight diversion from the film v digital debate
==
== 
==
==I don't use CDs any longer since hard drives are cheap and 
==big. CD's were always a pain. I always did copies of copies. 
==I could never catalogue them satisfactorily
==
== 
==
==I have 2 S-ATA 300gb drives that I use purely for photo data. 
==I have two areas on disk a) RAW Digital/scanned negatives b) Projects
==
== 
==
==

Since they are neither mechanical nor magnetic, they should last forever.
Unless the interface gets corroded and can't make contact.

But, I HAVE washed (accidently) two different brands, recovered them before
they hit the dryer, dried them out for two days and still use them.

Seth

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...] 
==
==Do you or anyone else know the potential life of images 
==stored on CF or similar cards? These are getting so big so 
==quickly, that I could imagine them being storage devices in a 
==few years - if the info is reasonably permanent on them.
==

The first transistors made by Texas Instrument were said to be
eternal, much like some claimed for the best electronic tubes. But
efficient Japanese production made them infinitely cheaper (for the
first "transistor radios")... accepting a real-world failure rate.

Because of the "acceptability" of a predicted-by-manufacturer failure
rate you won't get "forever", even if most keep on tickin'. It's a gamble.

Our Motorola and Intel chips all have predicted/known failure rates. 

There's no inherent reason small mechanical devices, such as HDs,
should not last for centuries. And when they fail, hopefully the ones
that are worthwhile have been backed up :-)


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth"
<seth@m...> wrote:
> Since they are neither mechanical nor magnetic, they should last
forever.

Hi Gang.............

  I just bought a dvd/cd burner to replace 
  a cd burner that just failed on me.

  I understand the difference between a one time
  write disc and one that can be re written, but I
  am at a loss betweeen when the discs are given
  a plus or a minus sign.

  Going by the book that came with dvd burner
  it seems that the discs do the same thing regardless
  of weather its a plus or minus.

  ????????????????????????????????


  Thanks

  Russ
  R.E. Baker
  Photography
  rebphoto@...

  Feed a Cat...
  Starve a Fever........



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Unfortunately, HDs aren't simply mechanical devices; they may well
still spin in a century (or not - lube gunks up), but it's very
unlikely their magnetic content will be intact. Just way too many ways
ANY/ALL magnetic records go bad. Don't count on magnetic storage
except short term (and if it really matters, pretty damn short). YMMNotV.

Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon"
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:

>  
> ....
> There's no inherent reason small mechanical devices, such as HDs,
> should not last for centuries.
>

This is not a problem. Even if you don't add to the archive, you should
regularly copy it to ensure integrity. This is the great advantage of
digital storage. Try regularly reproducing 20000 negatives

 

  _____  

From: lenzzman44 [mailto:lenzzman44@...] 
Sent: 19 March 2005 03:29
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Archiving digital

 


   Unfortunately, HDs aren't simply mechanical devices; they may well
still spin in a century (or not - lube gunks up), but it's very
unlikely their magnetic content will be intact. Just way too many ways
ANY/ALL magnetic records go bad. Don't count on magnetic storage
except short term (and if it really matters, pretty damn short). YMMNotV.

Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon"
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
>  
> ....
> There's no inherent reason small mechanical devices, such as HDs,
> should not last for centuries.
> 






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