Digital BW, The Print

I've been perusing this forum for over a year, and I've seen literally
hundreds of posts about various B&W inkset options for Epson printers.
 I have a 2200 and I'm considering MIS' UT7 carbon inks.  

Before taking the plunge, I'd like to become more knowledgeable on the
subject.  Is there a website or a link that discusses the various
options that are out there, with pros and cons of each manufacturer?  

Finally, has there been any kind of concensus on this board as to
which inksets work the best?

Thanks,
Robert Ades

Robert...There is no consensus on THIS forum on anything, and IMHO 
there never will be! :)...Best, Val

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" 
<la_native@h...> wrote:

> 
> I've been perusing this forum for over a year, and I've seen literally
> hundreds of posts about various B&W inkset options for Epson printers.
>  I have a 2200 and I'm considering MIS' UT7 carbon inks.  
> 
> Before taking the plunge, I'd like to become more knowledgeable on the
> subject.  Is there a website or a link that discusses the various
> options that are out there, with pros and cons of each manufacturer?  
> 
> Finally, has there been any kind of concensus on this board as to
> which inksets work the best?
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert Ades

This month for "Photography Made Difficult 
(http://photo.meetup.com/339/), the meeting date has been changed from 
Wednesday to Friday. The location is Barefoot Coffee Roasters at the 
borders of Santa Clara, Cupertino, and San Jose, near the intersection 
of hwy 280 and the Lawrence Expressway.

As always, the preference is to talk about pictures (process is a part 
of that) -- bringing some prints or a loaded laptop (PSP, whatever) is 
always a good idea. More info, maps, etc at 
http://photo.meetup.com/339/events/4433119/ or see my short report on 
the previous meetup: http://www.botzilla.com/blog/archives/000389.html

Hope to see a local face or two!
KB

Robert,

I don't think there is any good objective comparison of the options.
However, here is how I approach the issue:

First, I won't have anything to do with an inkset that is not 100% pigments.
Dyes may clog less, have a higher dmax, and be able to run on more types of
printers, but they fade much faster and most are plagued by metamerism.  The
older pigment inksets were hybrids and the dyes burning off caused fast and
sever color shifts with most of them.

When one looks only at the 100% pigment inkset, the list is rather short.

The UltraChromes are the starting place.  They no-doubt are the most
reliable.  With QTR or IJC, not to mention more expensive rips, the UC
inkset can make very good B&W prints.  However the dedicated inksets have
light inks that are less than half the concentration of the UC LK, which is
used all the way up in the UC-rip prints to avoid metamerism.  So, there is
a bit of an edge in smoothness to the dedicated B&W inskets.

The main 100% pigment B&W inksets I'm aware of are the MIS UT inks and
Cone's PiezoTones.  In my fade tests both are outstanding.  With both these
outfits many love them and some have endless trouble.  

The PiezoTones are monotone inksets, as are the MIS UT-FS and UT-FSN.  The
monotone inksets have the lightest gray inks, and are marginally smoother,
but most will not see this unless they look at the pirnts under a loupe.  On
the other hand, in the MIS UT2 and UT7 variable-tone inksets the yellow
position can be used for the super-light UT-FSN-Y.  With an appropriate
curve, this makes these variable-tone inksets have as smooth highlights as
the monotone inksets.  I have tried this and have a sample curve, but I
don't think it's a worthwhile option for most people.

The Piezo approach is more turn-key and prints from grayscale files without
the need to use curves, etc.  As such, the workflow may be easier for
people, and I assume there are more paper profiles.  The flip side is that
it is not an open workflow that allows you to tweak the profiles/curves
yourself.  It's been a while since I used Piezo systems, so I might be a bit
out of date here.

MIS's business model is to just sell the inks people want, and then the
customers are on their own.  I make Photoshop curves available to all, and
MIS distributes them also, but if there is a paper that I have not profiled
with a curve, you're going to have to see which curve works best and modify
it yourself.  With the UT2 & 7 inksets many papers also print fine with just
some Epson driver slider adjustments, which is the easiest workflow.
However, the most control is gained with the use of curves or a rip like QTR
or IJC.  Many on this list use QTR with MIS inks and also have curves.
These can often be linearized for a new paper and work fine.

I use MIS inks because its business model fits what I like to do, the inks
are cheap, and they are glossy paper compatible.  I think the glossy papers
are getting very interesting, and the ability to print on both types of
paper without having to change ink is a big advantage, especially with the
7500 and 7600.  This ability is unique to a few MIS UT inksets (among
pigmented inkset) as far as I know.

I post my notes on the various MIS inksets I've been involved with at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm .

Good luck in your search.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert [mailto:la_native@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:22 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Basics on B&W Inks
> 
> 
> 
> I've been perusing this forum for over a year, and I've seen literally
> hundreds of posts about various B&W inkset options for Epson printers.
>  I have a 2200 and I'm considering MIS' UT7 carbon inks.
> 
> Before taking the plunge, I'd like to become more knowledgeable on the
> subject.  Is there a website or a link that discusses the various
> options that are out there, with pros and cons of each manufacturer?
> 
> Finally, has there been any kind of concensus on this board as to
> which inksets work the best?
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert Ades
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

My 1160 hasn't been working for awhile, and I don't think I have the 
patience to try to fix it, so now that I really need to make some black 
and white prints, I'm willing to buy something new. I already have a 
2200 and want to keep it color, and I need to print on 13 x 19 paper. 
Any suggestions?

Or, anyone have an 1160 out there to buy?

Thanks,
Barbara White

Paul,
I have a question in regard to the lack of folks coming up with new
paper curve/profiles to go with your curves. Please bear with me and
ask if I don't explain it sufficiently to make sense.
I am curious to know why a simple density curve applied prior to using
your printing curves wouldn't easily set a picture up for a given
paper. It's been my experience that the primary differences (ignoring
the cooler/warmer tone aspects) is in what would have been termed
contrast for wet process papers along with possible blocking up of
some lower values. As I understand it, you have a curve set for
printing EEM at the least in every workflow. If one prints your 21step
scale on EEM as a visual in hand reference, all of the tonal
relationships are there and known. It should be no pain to print the
steps on a new paper and apply an 's' curve &/or bump up the lower
values a bit to get separation to match the EEM print.

Along with that I assume that to your partitioning curves a 50%
density value is always the same 50% as is a 10% a 10% etc etc and
give the same ink outputs for a given inkset no matter what it is
printed on. If this is the case I would think that anyone who knows
enough to work up a photograph to begin with can do the paper curve.
Am I making the wrong assumption?

Thanks.
Duane

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> MIS's business model is to just sell the inks people want, and then the
> customers are on their own.  I make Photoshop curves available to
all, and
> MIS distributes them also, but if there is a paper that I have not
profiled
> with a curve, you're going to have to see which curve works best and
modify
> it yourself.  With the UT2 & 7 inksets many papers also print fine
with just
> some Epson driver slider adjustments, which is the easiest workflow.
> However, the most control is gained with the use of curves or a rip
like QTR
> or IJC.  Many on this list use QTR with MIS inks and also have curves.
> These can often be linearized for a new paper and work fine.
>
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert [mailto:la_native@h...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:22 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Basics on B&W Inks
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I've been perusing this forum for over a year, and I've seen literally
> > hundreds of posts about various B&W inkset options for Epson printers.
> >  I have a 2200 and I'm considering MIS' UT7 carbon inks.
> > 
> > Before taking the plunge, I'd like to become more knowledgeable on the
> > subject.  Is there a website or a link that discusses the various
> > options that are out there, with pros and cons of each manufacturer?
> > 
> > Finally, has there been any kind of concensus on this board as to
> > which inksets work the best?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Robert Ades
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE
BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii)

> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

Duane,

> ... in regard to the lack of folks coming up with new
> paper curve/profiles to go with your curves. ...

> I am curious to know why a simple density curve applied prior to using
> your printing curves wouldn't easily set a picture up for a given
> paper. 

Yes, I think it will.  I think it works best when the 2 curves are set up as
curves layers and put on an small file as a curves set.  Then to print with
the curves, one simply drags the curves set to the image to be printed.  I
have a sample file that shows how this can be done.  What is important is
that the tone control curve be on top.

The unfortunate thing is that the combined RGB curve in the tone curves does
not work this way.  So, the extra linearization curve (which I'm thinking
can also be the monitor matching curve) needs to be a separate curve.  To
limit the loss of information, I think the layer set does this (as I
understand such things).


>... As I understand it, you have a curve set for
> printing EEM at the least in every workflow. If one prints your 21step
> scale on EEM as a visual in hand reference, all of the tonal
> relationships are there and known. It should be no pain to print the
> steps on a new paper and apply an 's' curve &/or bump up the lower
> values a bit to get separation to match the EEM print.

Due to the different ways that different papers absorb the inks, tones can
be altered by doing this.  As such, it is best to use a paper that is as
similar as possible.  However, there are usually enough different curves for
an inkset that one that is quite close can be found.


> 
> ... I would think that anyone who knows
> enough to work up a photograph to begin with can do the paper curve.

I think that most darkroom workers should be able to deal with monotone
curves.  Older partitioning curves and the variable-tone RGB curves get a
bit complex.  So, I've written a tutorial aimed at the monotone, grayscale
UT-FS (hextone CMCMY configuration) curves that I hope will be useful.  See
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monotone_Curves.htm .  

The same basic concepts will apply to the "linearization" overlay curves
that go into the layer sets.  I will probably get around to writing up that
approach soon.

I'll send you off list the sample curves set I've been playing with.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply.

-Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> I don't think there is any good objective comparison of the 
options.
> However, here is how I approach the issue:
> 
> First, I won't have anything to do with an inkset that is not 100% 
pigments.
> Dyes may clog less, have a higher dmax, and be able to run on more 
types of
> printers, but they fade much faster and most are plagued by 
metamerism.  The
> older pigment inksets were hybrids and the dyes burning off caused 
fast and
> sever color shifts with most of them.
> 
> When one looks only at the 100% pigment inkset, the list is rather 
short.
> 
> The UltraChromes are the starting place.  They no-doubt are the 
most
> reliable.  With QTR or IJC, not to mention more expensive rips, 
the UC
> inkset can make very good B&W prints.  However the dedicated 
inksets have
> light inks that are less than half the concentration of the UC LK, 
which is
> used all the way up in the UC-rip prints to avoid metamerism.  So, 
there is
> a bit of an edge in smoothness to the dedicated B&W inskets.
> 
> The main 100% pigment B&W inksets I'm aware of are the MIS UT inks 
and
> Cone's PiezoTones.  In my fade tests both are outstanding.  With 
both these
> outfits many love them and some have endless trouble.  
> 
> The PiezoTones are monotone inksets, as are the MIS UT-FS and UT-
FSN.  The
> monotone inksets have the lightest gray inks, and are marginally 
smoother,
> but most will not see this unless they look at the pirnts under a 
loupe.  On
> the other hand, in the MIS UT2 and UT7 variable-tone inksets the 
yellow
> position can be used for the super-light UT-FSN-Y.  With an 
appropriate
> curve, this makes these variable-tone inksets have as smooth 
highlights as
> the monotone inksets.  I have tried this and have a sample curve, 
but I
> don't think it's a worthwhile option for most people.
> 
> The Piezo approach is more turn-key and prints from grayscale 
files without
> the need to use curves, etc.  As such, the workflow may be easier 
for
> people, and I assume there are more paper profiles.  The flip side 
is that
> it is not an open workflow that allows you to tweak the 
profiles/curves
> yourself.  It's been a while since I used Piezo systems, so I 
might be a bit
> out of date here.
> 
> MIS's business model is to just sell the inks people want, and 
then the
> customers are on their own.  I make Photoshop curves available to 
all, and
> MIS distributes them also, but if there is a paper that I have not 
profiled
> with a curve, you're going to have to see which curve works best 
and modify
> it yourself.  With the UT2 & 7 inksets many papers also print fine 
with just
> some Epson driver slider adjustments, which is the easiest 
workflow.
> However, the most control is gained with the use of curves or a 
rip like QTR
> or IJC.  Many on this list use QTR with MIS inks and also have 
curves.
> These can often be linearized for a new paper and work fine.
> 
> I use MIS inks because its business model fits what I like to do, 
the inks
> are cheap, and they are glossy paper compatible.  I think the 
glossy papers
> are getting very interesting, and the ability to print on both 
types of
> paper without having to change ink is a big advantage, especially 
with the
> 7500 and 7600.  This ability is unique to a few MIS UT inksets 
(among
> pigmented inkset) as far as I know.
> 
> I post my notes on the various MIS inksets I've been involved with 
at
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm .
> 
> Good luck in your search.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert [mailto:la_native@h...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:22 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Basics on B&W Inks
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I've been perusing this forum for over a year, and I've seen 
literally
> > hundreds of posts about various B&W inkset options for Epson 
printers.
> >  I have a 2200 and I'm considering MIS' UT7 carbon inks.
> > 
> > Before taking the plunge, I'd like to become more knowledgeable 
on the
> > subject.  Is there a website or a link that discusses the various
> > options that are out there, with pros and cons of each 
manufacturer?
> > 
> > Finally, has there been any kind of concensus on this board as to
> > which inksets work the best?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Robert Ades
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR 
LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
(ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL 
BW, THE

> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

Barbara,

If you already have a 2200, you just need to use QTR or OPM to print 
great B&W using the UC inks.  Of course it is much cheaper to use MIS 
inks in refillable cartridges or a CIS on the 1160.  If you prefer to 
use an 1160 and if you happen to be in the Chicago Area and can pick it 
up, I will give you an 1160.

Bailey

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Barbara White 
<barbara@b...> wrote:
> My 1160 hasn't been working for awhile, and I don't think I have the 
> patience to try to fix it, so now that I really need to make some 
black 

> and white prints, I'm willing to buy something new. I already have a 
> 2200 and want to keep it color, and I need to print on 13 x 19 paper. 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Or, anyone have an 1160 out there to buy?
> 
> Thanks,
> Barbara White

I am in the process of switching from MIS Ultratone inks to Piezotone 
inks in my 7600.

I used a set of MIS cleaning carts to run several cleaning cycles and 
all was well.

Today I took the cleaning carts out and installed the Piezotone carts. 
However, the Magenta cart refuses to be recognized. The light goes off 
when I inser the cart, but when I set the ink lever the Magenta ink 
light comes back on.

At this point, no Magenta carts in my possession will work. I tried 
reinserting the cleaning cart, the new Piezotone cart, the MIS cart 
that was in there, and even a brand new Epson Ultrachrome cart. All of 
them have the same affect.

I tried wiggling the carts, shimming the cart, and cleaning the chips 
and the chip contacts.

Any idea of what else I should try?

I'm teriffied that Epson support will give me grief for using non-epson 
inks.

James