Digital BW, The Print

Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local framing 
store, but his specialty is fine art photography and portraiture.  
Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his training in 
traditional, analogue photography/print making, he now makes his 
living in Canada, still shooting film with wet dark room processing.

I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM paper 
with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  

"No Glossy Paper."

I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have much 
merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss photographic 
paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi gloss paper as an 
experiment and and I told him I would try and show him the results. 

What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art prints?

Do any of you use this media and if so for what applications?

What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
problem?

Please speak your minds.

Steve,

I prefer matte papers mounted behind glass.

I also like Epson Premium Luster.

I just don't like the look of glossy.

(This relates to my "personal" work. Many jobs I shoot require 
glossy,but not my choice. FWIW)

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@y...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local framing 
> store, but his specialty is fine art photography and portraiture.  
> Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his training in 
> traditional, analogue photography/print making, he now makes his 
> living in Canada, still shooting film with wet dark room processing.
> 
> I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM paper 
> with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  
> 
> "No Glossy Paper."
> 
> I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have much 
> merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss photographic 
> paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi gloss paper as an 
> experiment and and I told him I would try and show him the results. 
> 
> What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art prints?
> 
> Do any of you use this media and if so for what applications?
> 
> What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
> problem?
> 
> Please speak your minds.

I prefer using matte paper because there is less distraction from 
glare upon the surface of the print and also the bronzing effect from 
differential glossiness of more and less ink laid down on the 
surface. The only reason I might use glossy is if the image requires 
deeper blacks and better midtone separation that I might not be able 
to achieve from the matte surface. Whatever the image might need 
would be the reason for using either one over the other.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@y...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local framing 
> store, but his specialty is fine art photography and portraiture.  
> Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his training in 
> traditional, analogue photography/print making, he now makes his 
> living in Canada, still shooting film with wet dark room processing.
> 
> I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM paper 
> with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  
> 
> "No Glossy Paper."
> 
> I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have much 
> merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss photographic 
> paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi gloss paper as an 
> experiment and and I told him I would try and show him the results. 
> 
> What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art prints?
> 
> Do any of you use this media and if so for what applications?
> 
> What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
> problem?
> 
> Please speak your minds.

And 'bronzing'? Has that been a problem for you with glossy paper?
Do you use the QTR with glossy papers as well?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> 
> I prefer using matte paper because there is less distraction from 
> glare upon the surface of the print and also the bronzing effect 
from 
> differential glossiness of more and less ink laid down on the 
> surface. The only reason I might use glossy is if the image 
requires 
> deeper blacks and better midtone separation that I might not be 
able 
> to achieve from the matte surface. Whatever the image might need 
> would be the reason for using either one over the other.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> <blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local 
framing 
> > store, but his specialty is fine art photography and 
portraiture.  
> > Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his training 
in 
> > traditional, analogue photography/print making, he now makes his 
> > living in Canada, still shooting film with wet dark room 
processing.
> > 
> > I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM 
paper 
> > with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  
> > 
> > "No Glossy Paper."
> > 
> > I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have 
much 
> > merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss photographic 
> > paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi gloss paper as 
an 
> > experiment and and I told him I would try and show him the 
results. 
> > 
> > What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art 
prints?

> > 
> > Do any of you use this media and if so for what applications?
> > 
> > What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
> > problem?
> > 
> > Please speak your minds.

I like un-glazed Epson Premium Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print
Shield and dry mounted.  The spray not only physically protects the print,
but it also gets rid of the bronzing.  I'm not sure most "fine art" types
think it is as archival as rag paper, but Wilhelm gives the paper a >200
year dark storage life, which is what most of the rag papers also receive.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SteveZ
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 2:02 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] If you print and sell black and white prints, please
> read this thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local framing
> store, but his specialty is fine art photography and portraiture.
> Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his training in
> traditional, analogue photography/print making, he now makes his
> living in Canada, still shooting film with wet dark room processing.
> 
> I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM paper
> with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:
> 
> "No Glossy Paper."
> 
> I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have much
> merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss photographic
> paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi gloss paper as an
> experiment and and I told him I would try and show him the results.
> 
> What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art prints?
> 
> Do any of you use this media and if so for what applications?
> 
> What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
> problem?
> 
> Please speak your minds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

I'm glad you asked about QTR and glossy. As I'm writing this I'm 
making a print on Ilford Smooth Glossy Paper, because now that you 
mention it; I don't think I've used QTR with glossy paper. I'm using 
the SemiLuster Paper curve. Let me look at the finished print and see 
if my opinion is changed by it....................By George, there is 
almost no bronzing at all. There is still the distraction from the 
light glaring on the paper, but I may start using some Glossy Paper. 
Now I see that I failed to assign the QTR Glossy paper workspace 
before printing it. I may try another when I get some more glossy 
paper to play with.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> 
> And 'bronzing'? Has that been a problem for you with glossy paper?
> Do you use the QTR with glossy papers as well?
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > I prefer using matte paper because there is less distraction from 
> > glare upon the surface of the print and also the bronzing effect 
> from 
> > differential glossiness of more and less ink laid down on the 
> > surface. The only reason I might use glossy is if the image 
> requires 
> > deeper blacks and better midtone separation that I might not be 
> able 
> > to achieve from the matte surface. Whatever the image might need 
> > would be the reason for using either one over the other.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> > 
.

Johnny, are your prints coming out brown? I tried Ilford Smooth 
Pearl with the QTR and they had a strong sepia tone, not what I 
wanted at all. Then again, there is no specific profile for luster 
papers in the QTRgui. I tried printing with NoK and print came out 
completely washed out. I wish I had some answers.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> 
> I'm glad you asked about QTR and glossy. As I'm writing this I'm 
> making a print on Ilford Smooth Glossy Paper, because now that you 
> mention it; I don't think I've used QTR with glossy paper. I'm 
using 
> the SemiLuster Paper curve. Let me look at the finished print and 
see 
> if my opinion is changed by it....................By George, there 
is 
> almost no bronzing at all. There is still the distraction from the 
> light glaring on the paper, but I may start using some Glossy 
Paper. 
> Now I see that I failed to assign the QTR Glossy paper workspace 
> before printing it. I may try another when I get some more glossy 
> paper to play with.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> <blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > And 'bronzing'? Has that been a problem for you with glossy 
paper?
> > Do you use the QTR with glossy papers as well?
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
Eades" 
> > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I prefer using matte paper because there is less distraction 
from 
> > > glare upon the surface of the print and also the bronzing 
effect 
> > from 
> > > differential glossiness of more and less ink laid down on the 
> > > surface. The only reason I might use glossy is if the image 
> > requires 
> > > deeper blacks and better midtone separation that I might not 
be 
> > able 
> > > to achieve from the matte surface. Whatever the image might 
need 

> > > would be the reason for using either one over the other.
> > > 
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > 
> > > Johnny
> > > 
> .

Maybe I'm all wet here, but most of the prints in most of the archives 
of fine-art photographers I've been through and most of the wet 
printing I've done for others has been on air-dried type F. I see very 
few ferrotyped prints. Granted, EEM doesn't look like air-dried glossy 
paper, but I wouldn't consider the lack of a shiny surface basis for 
criticism.

All the best,

Robbe

On Apr 20, 2005, at 3:02 PM, SteveZ wrote:

>
>
>
> Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local framing
> store, but his specialty is fine art photography and portraiture.
> Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his training in
> traditional, analogue photography/print making, he now makes his
> living in Canada, still shooting film with wet dark room processing.
>
> I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM paper
> with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:
>
> "No Glossy Paper."
>
> I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have much
> merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss photographic
> paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi gloss paper as an
> experiment and and I told him I would try and show him the results.
>
> What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art prints?
>
> Do any of you use this media and if so for what applications?
>
> What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
> problem?
>
> Please speak your minds.

I wouldn't touch it.  It might just be a European thing.  Don't know.

Glossies are really for reproduction.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
==[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
==Behalf Of SteveZ
==Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:02 PM
==To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
==Subject: [Digital BW] If you print and sell black and white 
==prints, please read this thread
==
==
==
==
==Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local 
==framing store, but his specialty is fine art photography and 
==portraiture.  
==Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his 
==training in traditional, analogue photography/print making, 
==he now makes his living in Canada, still shooting film with 
==wet dark room processing.
==
==I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM 
==paper with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  
==
=="No Glossy Paper."
==
==I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have 
==much merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss 
==photographic paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi 
==gloss paper as an experiment and and I told him I would try 
==and show him the results. 
==
==What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art prints?
==
==Do any of you use this media and if so for what applications?
==
==What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this problem?
==
==Please speak your minds.
==
==
==
==
==
==
==------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
==--------------------~--> What would our lives be like without 
==music, dance, and theater?
==Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
==http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/ucIolB/TM
==--------------------------------------------------------------
==------~-> 
==
==Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
==resources as they are often being updated.
==
==http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
==
==If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
==you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
==preferences by visiting this same page.
==
==Please follow these basic guidelines:
==- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
==messages to keep them short.
==- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
==or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
==removed from the membership without notice.
==- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
==digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
==posts may be removed from the membership.
==- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
==rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
==decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
==Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
==http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
==
==BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
==BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
==THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
==YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
==INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
==DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
==PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
==IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
==YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
==DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
==THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
==ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
==STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
==THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
==THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
== 
==Yahoo! Groups Links
==
==
==
== 
==
==
==
==
==

That makes sense to me.  I love the paper but when I do color on it I ALWAYS
get a magenta cast and have to work hard to eliminate it.  I think it is
just how it reacts with the inks.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
==
==Johnny, are your prints coming out brown? I tried Ilford 
==Smooth Pearl with the QTR and they had a strong sepia tone, 
==not what I wanted at all. Then again, there is no specific 
==profile for luster papers in the QTRgui. I tried printing 
==

Just deleted my original post and am reposting

because I notice that I am RANTING  :)  and want to apologize  SORRY

******

But

I think that he is narrow minded and out of touch with reality.

Doesn't mean that he isn't smart, artistic with good taste, a great guy, etc.  That is a 
different subject.

:)

I admit that when I switched to digital printing that I hesitated on matte paper,

but the prints AND BLACKS are superior to Illford silver gelatin fiber based paper and they 
look great. Better than FINE darkroom prints.  Wasn't easy to get there though.

The last techno oriented comment I had is that "They CAN"T be inkjet".

HA!

bronzing? don't use glossy paper---it never looked very good anyway, though air dried
was fine.

Incidentally, air dried Illford silver gelatin paper (was it glossy or pearl???) has bronzing 
too---just look at it at a high angle (i.e. looking for bronzing not admiring it)  Or would 
we call it an embossed look, or?

bronzing? frame them behind glass. It is a total non issue except to people hoping to find 
fault. Yes, I've done it too---peered very closely to see if there were dots, or this or that.

Framing behind glass also makes them "look glossy"; well sort of. You can't tell the 
difference I think except that there are no annoying reflections from a glossy surface. 
(same for semigloss, reflections I mean)

Incidentally, only photographers use glossy paper, not fine artist's from other mediums
(oil, watercolor, ink, charcoal, pastel, etc).

Scott

But,--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" <blizzie12@y...> 
wrote:

> 
> 
> Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local framing 
> store, but his specialty is fine art photography and portraiture.  
>> 
> I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM paper 
> with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  
> 
> "No Glossy Paper."
> 
> I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have much 
> 
> What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art prints?
> 
> What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
> problem?
> 
> Please speak your minds.

Scott, thanks for the tips on 'bronzing'.  That'll help.
Someone else has suggested buying some Print Shield spray. I should 
look into that.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Graham" 
<gebilwil@n...> wrote:
> 
> Just deleted my original post and am reposting
> 
> because I notice that I am RANTING  :)  and want to apologize  
SORRY
> 
> ******
> 
> But
> 
> I think that he is narrow minded and out of touch with reality.
> 
> Doesn't mean that he isn't smart, artistic with good taste, a 
great guy, etc.  That is a 
> different subject.
> 
> :)
> 
> I admit that when I switched to digital printing that I hesitated 
on matte paper,
> 
> but the prints AND BLACKS are superior to Illford silver gelatin 
fiber based paper and they 
> look great. Better than FINE darkroom prints.  Wasn't easy to get 
there though.
> 
> The last techno oriented comment I had is that "They CAN"T be 
inkjet".
> 
> HA!
> 
> bronzing? don't use glossy paper---it never looked very good 
anyway, though air dried
> was fine.
> 
> Incidentally, air dried Illford silver gelatin paper (was it 
glossy or pearl???) has bronzing 
> too---just look at it at a high angle (i.e. looking for bronzing 
not admiring it)  Or would 
> we call it an embossed look, or?
> 
> bronzing? frame them behind glass. It is a total non issue except 
to people hoping to find 
> fault. Yes, I've done it too---peered very closely to see if there 
were dots, or this or that.
> 
> Framing behind glass also makes them "look glossy"; well sort of. 
You can't tell the 
> difference I think except that there are no annoying reflections 
from a glossy surface. 
> (same for semigloss, reflections I mean)
> 
> Incidentally, only photographers use glossy paper, not fine 
artist's from other mediums
> (oil, watercolor, ink, charcoal, pastel, etc).
> 
> Scott
> 
> But,--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@y...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local 
framing 
> > store, but his specialty is fine art photography and 
portraiture.  
> >> 
> > I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM 
paper 
> > with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  
> > 
> > "No Glossy Paper."
> > 
> > I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have 
much 
> > 
> > What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art 
prints?

> > 
> > What about the "bronzing" issue? How do I overcome this
> > problem?
> > 
> > Please speak your minds.

No they aren't sepia--slightly warm; but not much different than on 
the matte paper. I used the Epson PremLuster paper curve at 100%. It 
sounds like you use UltraChrome inks, I use the MIS Ultratone 2 
inkset in an Epson 1280 printer.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> 
> Johnny, are your prints coming out brown? I tried Ilford Smooth 
> Pearl with the QTR and they had a strong sepia tone, not what I 
> wanted at all. Then again, there is no specific profile for luster 
> papers in the QTRgui. I tried printing with NoK and print came out 
> completely washed out. I wish I had some answers.
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > I'm glad you asked about QTR and glossy. As I'm writing this I'm 
> > making a print on Ilford Smooth Glossy Paper, because now that 
you 
> > mention it; I don't think I've used QTR with glossy paper. I'm 
> using 
> > the SemiLuster Paper curve. Let me look at the finished print and 
> see 
> > if my opinion is changed by it....................By George, 
there 
> is 
> > almost no bronzing at all. There is still the distraction from 
the 

> > light glaring on the paper, but I may start using some Glossy 
> Paper. 
> > Now I see that I failed to assign the QTR Glossy paper workspace 
> > before printing it. I may try another when I get some more glossy 
> > paper to play with.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> > <blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > And 'bronzing'? Has that been a problem for you with glossy 
> paper?
> > > Do you use the QTR with glossy papers as well?
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
> Eades" 
> > > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > I prefer using matte paper because there is less distraction 
> from 
> > > > glare upon the surface of the print and also the bronzing 
> effect 
> > > from 
> > > > differential glossiness of more and less ink laid down on the 
> > > > surface. The only reason I might use glossy is if the image 
> > > requires 
> > > > deeper blacks and better midtone separation that I might not 
> be 
> > > able 
> > > > to achieve from the matte surface. Whatever the image might 
> need 
> > > > would be the reason for using either one over the other.
> > > > 
> > > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > > 
> > > > Johnny
> > > > 
> > .

Yeah, I do use UC inks. Tonight I did some tests on Epson premium 
semi gloss and the QTR. The results weren't too bad, a bit of 
bronzing but but it's almost impossible to get a really "cool" image 
using existing QTR curves.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> 
> No they aren't sepia--slightly warm; but not much different than 
on 
> the matte paper. I used the Epson PremLuster paper curve at 100%. 
It 
> sounds like you use UltraChrome inks, I use the MIS Ultratone 2 
> inkset in an Epson 1280 printer.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> <blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Johnny, are your prints coming out brown? I tried Ilford Smooth 
> > Pearl with the QTR and they had a strong sepia tone, not what I 
> > wanted at all. Then again, there is no specific profile for 
luster 
> > papers in the QTRgui. I tried printing with NoK and print came 
out 
> > completely washed out. I wish I had some answers.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
Eades" 
> > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I'm glad you asked about QTR and glossy. As I'm writing this 
I'm 
> > > making a print on Ilford Smooth Glossy Paper, because now that 
> you 
> > > mention it; I don't think I've used QTR with glossy paper. I'm 
> > using 
> > > the SemiLuster Paper curve. Let me look at the finished print 
and 
> > see 
> > > if my opinion is changed by it....................By George, 
> there 
> > is 
> > > almost no bronzing at all. There is still the distraction from 
> the 
> > > light glaring on the paper, but I may start using some Glossy 
> > Paper. 
> > > Now I see that I failed to assign the QTR Glossy paper 
workspace 
> > > before printing it. I may try another when I get some more 
glossy 
> > > paper to play with.
> > > 
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > 
> > > Johnny
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> > > <blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > And 'bronzing'? Has that been a problem for you with glossy 
> > paper?
> > > > Do you use the QTR with glossy papers as well?
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
> > Eades" 
> > > > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > I prefer using matte paper because there is less 
distraction 
> > from 
> > > > > glare upon the surface of the print and also the bronzing 
> > effect 
> > > > from 
> > > > > differential glossiness of more and less ink laid down on 
the 
> > > > > surface. The only reason I might use glossy is if the 
image 
> > > > requires 
> > > > > deeper blacks and better midtone separation that I might 
not 
> > be 
> > > > able 
> > > > > to achieve from the matte surface. Whatever the image 
might 

> > need 
> > > > > would be the reason for using either one over the other.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Johnny
> > > > > 
> > > .

There is some discussion the last few days on the QTR group about adjusting curves to get 
cooler prints.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" <blizzie12@y...> wrote:

> 
> Yeah, I do use UC inks. Tonight I did some tests on Epson premium 
> semi gloss and the QTR. The results weren't too bad, a bit of 
> bronzing but but it's almost impossible to get a really "cool" image 
> using existing QTR curves.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > No they aren't sepia--slightly warm; but not much different than 
> on 
> > the matte paper. I used the Epson PremLuster paper curve at 100%. 
> It 
> > sounds like you use UltraChrome inks, I use the MIS Ultratone 2 
> > inkset in an Epson 1280 printer.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> > <blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Johnny, are your prints coming out brown? I tried Ilford Smooth 
> > > Pearl with the QTR and they had a strong sepia tone, not what I 
> > > wanted at all. Then again, there is no specific profile for 
> luster 
> > > papers in the QTRgui. I tried printing with NoK and print came 
> out 
> > > completely washed out. I wish I had some answers.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
> Eades" 
> > > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > I'm glad you asked about QTR and glossy. As I'm writing this 
> I'm 
> > > > making a print on Ilford Smooth Glossy Paper, because now that 
> > you 
> > > > mention it; I don't think I've used QTR with glossy paper. I'm 
> > > using 
> > > > the SemiLuster Paper curve. Let me look at the finished print 
> and 
> > > see 
> > > > if my opinion is changed by it....................By George, 
> > there 
> > > is 
> > > > almost no bronzing at all. There is still the distraction from 
> > the 
> > > > light glaring on the paper, but I may start using some Glossy 
> > > Paper. 
> > > > Now I see that I failed to assign the QTR Glossy paper 
> workspace 
> > > > before printing it. I may try another when I get some more 
> glossy 
> > > > paper to play with.
> > > > 
> > > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > > 
> > > > Johnny
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> > > > <blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > And 'bronzing'? Has that been a problem for you with glossy 
> > > paper?
> > > > > Do you use the QTR with glossy papers as well?
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
> > > Eades" 
> > > > > <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I prefer using matte paper because there is less 
> distraction 
> > > from 
> > > > > > glare upon the surface of the print and also the bronzing 
> > > effect 
> > > > > from 
> > > > > > differential glossiness of more and less ink laid down on 
> the 
> > > > > > surface. The only reason I might use glossy is if the 
> image 
> > > > > requires 
> > > > > > deeper blacks and better midtone separation that I might 
> not 
> > > be 
> > > > > able 
> > > > > > to achieve from the matte surface. Whatever the image 
> might 
> > > need 
> > > > > > would be the reason for using either one over the other.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Johnny
> > > > > > 
> > > > .

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth" <seth@m...> wrote:
> Well put, Scott!! 

It' kind of demeaning to call some one who is working at an honest job a chimpanzee-just 
because they may not posess the  artistic/technical expertise that you believe you have 
doesn't mean they should be disrespected.
Your wrong about the paper stock being "high contrast" as well as glossy-labs offering low 
cost , automatic processing rarely go above grade 2 contrast because low contrast will 
print every kind of negative..
Jack

> 
> I'd just like to add photographers use it for reproduction purposes.
> 
> ALSO, Walmart/CVS/Costco, etc. use it for amateur stuff for a reason. It's
> usually high contrast in addition to gloss.  Both tend to make up for the
> failings of amateur cameras, plastic lenses, etc.  They enhance otherwise
> softer images. That, and the ability to treach a chimpanzee to run the
> machine, make for cheap sales. <GGG?
> 
> Since we control that with workflow, we don't need the boost.
> 
> I had a woman come through the booth once, take a long hard look at a matte
> print of a lily, framed behind glass, then turn to me and say, "I am a
> watercolor artist too. What type of paints do YOU use?"
> 
> I just told her I really didn't want to release my technique.
> 
> Seth
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jnhugo" <jacknadelle@h...> 
wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth" <seth@m...> wrote:
> > Well put, Scott!! 
> 
> It' kind of demeaning to call some one who is working at an honest job a chimpanzee-
just 
> because they may not posess the  artistic/technical expertise that you believe you have 
> doesn't mean they should be disrespected.
> Your wrong about the paper stock being "high contrast" as well as glossy-labs offering 
low 
> cost , automatic processing rarely go above grade 2 contrast because low contrast will 
> print every kind of negative..
> Jack
I should have added that  automatic printing IN THE PAST used low contrast paper. Of 
course now and for at least the last decade-automatic processors use color paper for 
black and white prints-the simply have a seperate channel balanced for  b/w printing.

Steve;

I find it curious that only a few short weeks after 'the great glop 
debate'none of the responders have brought gloss optimizer (glop)up 
as as option. I suppose this means most have written it off as an 
option for one reason or another. Since the R1800 is out , and both 
Roy (QTR) and Paul Roark are workng to support it, I feel that 
dismissing the technique is very premature, so I'll give you a brief 
summary:

Gloss optimizer as you probably know is a resin solution used in one 
of the R800 channels to even out the gloss differential and 
eliminate 'bronzing'with the UC inks when used on gloss/semigloss 
papers. The R1800 is set up the same way, just a bigger printer. 
Some of us experimented a few weeks back with MIS' version of the 
product, either overcoating with a second pass, or using QTR or 
another rip to control a glop channel.  The results are quite worth 
the extra trouble if you are still 'hung up' on the air-dried glossy 
look, or need hi-gloss for those vulgar (in my opinion) PR shots 
that some keep referring to. Epson premium semi-matte, or a smooth 
semi-gloss paper takes on a surface sheen that is the closest yet to 
air-dried, and the dmax kicks up to well over 2.0 (compared to 1.7 
for matte papers) with a clearing and deepening of shadow detail 
that is every bit as nice as a fiber print.  If you are using a UC 
printer with QTR and color inks, the glop benefits your color 
printing as well.

The down side? well, the extra complexity of course, if you're doing 
it with a printer(s) not setup for it. Also, the glop offers no real 
protection like the printshield does. And, the MIS version right now 
is not clear, but slightly tea-colored, so if you put it on too 
thick it visibly warms the tone of the print and paper.

My opinion on the gloss/vs matte issue is that we are more hung up 
on it than the print-buying segment of the art market. Many buyers, 
collectors, gallerist, etc. are still a lot more hung-up on silver-
gel vs. inkjet as a whole and don't really give serious 
consideration to the details of inkjet prints beyond just picking 
them apart. The real educational job here is to get that bias out of 
our way- the technical side will evolve quickly enough.

Steve Karafyllakis


 In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Today I met with an old associate of mine, he owns a local framing 
> store, but his specialty is fine art photography and portraiture.  
> Originally from eastern Europe, where he received his training in 
> traditional, analogue photography/print making, he now makes his 
> living in Canada, still shooting film with wet dark room 
processing.
> 
> I had him look at some of my digital b&w prints done on EEM paper 
> with my 2200, and he was impressed, except for one thing:  
> 
> "No Glossy Paper."
> 
> I suppose in his mind, a black and white print does not have much 
> merit unless it's produced on glossy or semi-gloss photographic 
> paper.  He suggested I make some prints on semi gloss paper as an 
> experiment and and I told him I would try and show him the 
results. 
> 
> What are your opinions about using glossy media for fine art 
prints?
>

Steve,


> I find it curious that only a few short weeks after 'the great glop
> debate'none of the responders have brought gloss optimizer (glop)up
> as as option. ...

I use Glop regularly for letter-size Kirkland.  For the display prints on
Premium Semimatte, I want the protection that the spray gives.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, I use an Epson 2200. Would you know if there is a GLOP 
cartridge for this machine? If not, my only option for semigloss is 
Print Shield. Thanks!

Steve

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> 
> > I find it curious that only a few short weeks after 'the great 
glop
> > debate'none of the responders have brought gloss optimizer 
(glop)up
> > as as option. ...
> 
> I use Glop regularly for letter-size Kirkland.  For the display 
prints on

> Premium Semimatte, I want the protection that the spray gives.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@y...> wrote:
> 
> Paul, I use an Epson 2200. Would you know if there is a GLOP 
> cartridge for this machine? If not, my only option for semigloss is 
> Print Shield. Thanks!
> 
> Steve
Steve: 
You can put it in a spare K cart and switch when you are ready to coat, 
overprinting a black-only field, or you can put it in a cheap airbrush 
and spray it when you need it. It's less obnoxious to spray, though I 
still wear a mask when I do it.

Steve Karafyllakis

Steve,

I filled an easy-refill 2200 cart with glop from the R800 page.

I'll find out if there is a pre-filled cart.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SteveZ
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 10:45 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: If you print and sell black and white prints,
> please read this
> 
> 
> 
> Paul, I use an Epson 2200. Would you know if there is a GLOP
> cartridge for this machine? If not, my only option for semigloss is
> Print Shield. Thanks!
> 
> Steve
> 
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul
> Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> >
> > > I find it curious that only a few short weeks after 'the great
> glop
> > > debate'none of the responders have brought gloss optimizer
> (glop)up
> > > as as option. ...
> >
> > I use Glop regularly for letter-size Kirkland.  For the display
> prints on
> > Premium Semimatte, I want the protection that the spray gives.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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