Digital BW, The Print

Several people have mentioned seeing color dots in 2400 "B&W" scans when
examined by a loupe.  So, I took a 4800 "neutral" B&W test print and a 2200
UT7 matched test print (neutral curve modified to more closely match the
4800 tone).  The exact same file and EEM paper batch were used in these
prints.  They were scanned on my Epson Perfection 1600 at 1600 dpi with the
exact same settings.  So that the dots would show better on monitors, I
increased the file size of the small sections of these RGB scans 3 times.
The images are posted and linked to the bottom of my information page at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm.

 

What surprised me was that Epson appears to be using more than the minimum
necessary color - even the yellow - in its B&W mode, neutral prints.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I get a file not found error.

Scott

Paul Roark wrote:

> Several people have mentioned seeing color dots in 2400 "B&W" scans when
> examined by a loupe. So, I took a 4800 "neutral" B&W test print and a 2200
> UT7 matched test print (neutral curve modified to more closely match the
> 4800 tone). The exact same file and EEM paper batch were used in these
> prints. They were scanned on my Epson Perfection 1600 at 1600 dpi with the
> exact same settings. So that the dots would show better on monitors, I
> increased the file size of the small sections of these RGB scans 3 times.
> The images are posted and linked to the bottom of my information page at
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm.
>
>
>
> What surprised me was that Epson appears to be using more than the minimum
> necessary color - even the yellow - in its B&W mode, neutral prints.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Scott McLoughlin wrote:

> I get a file not found error.

http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm.

Are you picking up that period at the end of the url? If so, that's 
probably why.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

Very interesting. Wonder why, and how much color is really there. 
What do the same prints look like if they are printed in 
the "regular" color mode? People have reported that the color mode 
offers very good results too.

Hello dfaprinting,

>Very interesting. Wonder why, and how much color is really there. 

The 3 shades of black allow a much finer gradation of tones, but being
all carbon, by themselves they will be warm and need to be toned to be
cooler (or any other setting).  So, like the other RIPs, the colors
are added in in small amounts.  The yellow is surprising because in
the past Y was the least fade resistant and caused metamerism, and the
other RIPS avoided using it.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

So how do a B&W print look - from 4800 v. Epson inks in B&W mode vs. from Epson 2100 
with UT7 ?? Are the yellow dots visible from normal viewing distance?
What about longevity?

Bjorn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:

> Hello dfaprinting,
> 
> >Very interesting. Wonder why, and how much color is really there. 
> 
> The 3 shades of black allow a much finer gradation of tones, but being
> all carbon, by themselves they will be warm and need to be toned to be
> cooler (or any other setting).  So, like the other RIPs, the colors
> are added in in small amounts.  The yellow is surprising because in
> the past Y was the least fade resistant and caused metamerism, and the
> other RIPS avoided using it.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> 
> >... Wonder why, and how much color is really there.
> 
> The 3 shades of black allow a much finer gradation of tones, but being
> all carbon, by themselves they will be warm and need to be toned to be
> cooler (or any other setting).  So, like the other RIPs, the colors
> are added in in small amounts.  The yellow is surprising because in
> the past Y was the least fade resistant and caused metamerism, and the
> other RIPS avoided using it.
> 

I've now put the top 10% of the 4800 ramp on the web, again, accessed from
the bottom of my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm 

The top part of the ramp appears to be entirely color inks.  As they say,
"The more things change, the more they stay the same."  

While we assumed that Epson was doing what the rips did and using just the
color inks that would be needed to neutralize the warm carbon, that appears
not to be the case.  The 4800 and presumably 2400 are not really that much
different from the 2200 and 4000 in that Epson is still using color pigments
-- C, M, and Y -- to generate much of its grayscale.

Assuming the samples I was given were properly printed in "B&W" mode, I'd
say the new printers are not as truly B&W "carbon" printers as we and some
reviewers had assumed.  It looks like the third party rips will continue to
be needed to print top notch B&W from the OEM inkset.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> 
> So how do a B&W print look ...

I think the 4800 prints look good.  I can't see the dots in normal viewing.
Some, however, have noted metamerism in the Epson prints.  With more color
inks, that is what I'd expect.

> What about longevity?

That is why I asked for sample test strips.  I'll be running a fade test
next month comparing the 4800 Epson UC inks with UT7 inks.

It would be interesting to put cleaning fluid in the 2400 "gray" ink spots
and then print a "B&W" 21-step test strip to see just what the distribution
of color inks is in that mode.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul Roark wrote:

>
>I've now put the top 10% of the 4800 ramp on the web, again, accessed from
>the bottom of my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm 
>
>The top part of the ramp appears to be entirely color inks.  As they say,
>"The more things change, the more they stay the same."  
>
>  
>
Totally surprised I have to say.

The obvious question then is:
How dark are the LK and LLK actually ?

The most likely reason probably is:
Epson kept as much of its basic color driver possible in the Advanced 
B&W part to make color toning easier. The composite grey is there as a 
base to shift to the sepia etc without changing the density per grey 
step as a result. Simpler than linearising every possible color tone 
combination. A kind of 10% composite grey cover over the entire range 
and by that the 10% at the bottom can't have LLK. It will not influence 
the fade quality much but time will tell how consistent the printer is 
to keep crossovers away.

Ernst

If you are using the test strips I sent they were definitely done in Adv B&W
mode. Quite interesting.  As for the "3 shades of black" being carbon, where
did this come from?  I am not aware that Epson targeted a pure carbon 3K.  I
am waiting for Roy to get QTR mapped to the 4800 firmware so that I can
print his ink separation chart to see the hue of the individual inks.

The fade tests will be key.  If they are good (actually I guess we can only
say "as good as") then I don't care about whether Epson uses colour inks or
not.  The ease of use of Adv B&W is really quite good - arguably easier than
"black only" because it actually produces what one expects/desires.  I must
say that I have not noticed any metamerism on any of the prints I have made
thus far (and I have done everything from neutral to sepia).  I have largely
been doing photo paper output because it is just so damn good.  I don't care
what anybody says, those extra 2.5 f-stops of dynamic range make a big
difference in B&W.  I fully expect the matte black ink cartridge to rot in
the drawer.

If the fade tests are bad and can be improved by better RIP control over the
use of colour inks then that's fine.  We lose the ease of use factor (which
is really very significant) but have gained a substantially better set of
raw ink (with the exception of matte black).  Once Roy has QTR up for the
4800 I will gladly print test strips for you - I should have held onto the
unused paper!

I would continue to stress the key advance made by Epson this round is the
output to photo paper - the massive reduction in "bronzing" and "gloss
differential" issues.  If you only print to matte paper, upgrading this
round is likely not for you unless you are the type of person who wants ease
of use and feel constricted by the only-one-flavour "black only" printing.

Steve

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:08:44 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: 4800 v. UT7 1600 dpi scans
> 
>> 
>>> ... Wonder why, and how much color is really there.
>> 
>> The 3 shades of black allow a much finer gradation of tones, but being
>> all carbon, by themselves they will be warm and need to be toned to be
>> cooler (or any other setting).  So, like the other RIPs, the colors
>> are added in in small amounts.  The yellow is surprising because in
>> the past Y was the least fade resistant and caused metamerism, and the
>> other RIPS avoided using it.
>> 
> 
> I've now put the top 10% of the 4800 ramp on the web, again, accessed from
> the bottom of my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm
> 
> The top part of the ramp appears to be entirely color inks.  As they say,
> "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
> 
> While we assumed that Epson was doing what the rips did and using just the
> color inks that would be needed to neutralize the warm carbon, that appears
> not to be the case.  The 4800 and presumably 2400 are not really that much
> different from the 2200 and 4000 in that Epson is still using color pigments
> -- C, M, and Y -- to generate much of its grayscale.
> 
> Assuming the samples I was given were properly printed in "B&W" mode, I'd
> say the new printers are not as truly B&W "carbon" printers as we and some
> reviewers had assumed.  It looks like the third party rips will continue to
> be needed to print top notch B&W from the OEM inkset.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

>The top part of the ramp appears to be entirely color inks...
>...Epson is still using color pigments -- C, M, and Y -- to 
>generate much of its grayscale.

Amazing.  I have several 4800 prints on different papers and modes
with PK, and even on the best of them I found the overall look to be
"unconvincing" on close examination, though it looked excellent at
first glance.  I don't know if it's the shiny paper or the subtle
color in the blacks or the slightly veiled highlights (or all of the
above), but I just can't get excited about it.  I was hoping the 2400
had a BO mode because the 4800 BO print shows much promise.  But it
apparently has no BO mode.  

Now this news - it has pretty much squashed whatever interest I had
left for the 2400, at least out of the box.  Looks like we're going to
need QTR/IJC and MIS top-fill carts to make it do what we want.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I am not sure what you were expecting.  The matte black ink has not changed at all.  You 
prefer black only and so the other inks aren't so relevant.  The ink droplet size reduction 
from the 2100 to the 4800/2400 isn't that material in the grand scheme of things.   Apart 
from the extra size gain, I doubt you would find black only on the 4800 much different 
than on the 2200.  Even with QTR/IJC the additional LLK is likely of only marginal benefit 
on matte paper at 2880dpi  (it is much more important on photo paper because of 
bronzing).  Your views on Photo paper output are well known and the K3 inks are a photo 
paper oriented advance.  

Having said all that the 2400 will, 'despite' its use of colour ink, likely (based on what I've 
seen from the 4800) produce a dramatically better B&W output than the 21/2200, on 
either matte or photo paper, out of the box.  With the 21/2200 the metamerism on either 
paper was plainly obvious.  On the 4800 (and likely the 2400) it is practically non-existent, 
as best as I have been able to determine, even out of the box.   This was the principal 
reason people looked for alternatives (including the simplist alternative, black only).  I 
challenge anyone to see the colour dots with the naked eye from any distance.  If they 
don't cause metamerism or fading issues then who cares?  The former you can test for 
here and now.  The latter can only be simulated but the results from the simulations 
conducted to date have been very, very positive.  

I'd have no problem highly recommending either the 2400 or the 4800 as a solid and 
significant advance on their forebears.   The out-of-the-box results are dramatically 
better.  The boundary of what CAN be achieved with these printers (using more 
sophisticated techniques and RIPs) on matte paper has likely not changed too much.  This 
is unsurprising when we know the matte black ink has not changed and even greater 
smoothness in greyscale can be achieved with dedicated B&W ink sets.  The boundary of 
what CAN be achieved on photo paper has definitely been dramatically extended.  All in all 
a good step forward, especially for the user that expects a great, satisfying result out-of-
the-box.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:

> Paul,
> 
> >The top part of the ramp appears to be entirely color inks...
> >...Epson is still using color pigments -- C, M, and Y -- to 
> >generate much of its grayscale.
> 
> Amazing.  I have several 4800 prints on different papers and modes
> with PK, and even on the best of them I found the overall look to be
> "unconvincing" on close examination, though it looked excellent at
> first glance.  I don't know if it's the shiny paper or the subtle
> color in the blacks or the slightly veiled highlights (or all of the
> above), but I just can't get excited about it.  I was hoping the 2400
> had a BO mode because the 4800 BO print shows much promise.  But it
> apparently has no BO mode.  
> 
> Now this news - it has pretty much squashed whatever interest I had
> left for the 2400, at least out of the box.  Looks like we're going to
> need QTR/IJC and MIS top-fill carts to make it do what we want.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Steve,

I have a R2400 (as well as a R1800 and 2100), and, as you suggest, the R2400 
is far superior to the 2100 for B&W on glossy papers (even using IP). I 
shall now get rid of my 2100 and IP and use the 2400 for B&W on glossy 
papers and the 1800 for color on matte and glossy (no black carts to 
change).

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>


Having said all that the 2400 will, 'despite' its use of colour ink, likely 
(based on what I've
seen from the 4800) produce a dramatically better B&W output than the 
21/2200, on
either matte or photo paper, out of the box.

Steve,

 
> If you are using the test strips I sent they were definitely 
>done in Adv B&W mode...

Yes, these are scans from your EEM "N" test strip.  I might add that I think
the test strips look very good.  

My initial surprise from your test strips was that the 4800 produced such a
good dmax on EEM and PremierArt 205 (much better than my 2200), yet the dmax
on Permajet Alpha (same coating as Innova from what I can tell) was rather
weak.  Perhaps the dither pattern is different and is the cause of this.  At
any rate, Epson has clearly "fixed" most of the dmax problems of the 4000,
and the prints from any reasonable viewing distance look very good.

> As for the "3 shades of black" being carbon, where
> did this come from?  I am not aware that Epson targeted a pure carbon 3K.

I've seen it in reviews of the new printers.  So, I'm not sure Epson is
behind it or this is being pulled out of the air by the reviewers.  In fact,
I suspect the black inks are mostly carbon even though the Epson Material
Safety Data Sheets suggest otherwise, saying (in the past) they were mostly
"proprietary dyes and pigments."  That catch-all, however, might include
variants of carbon.

> I
> am waiting for Roy to get QTR mapped to the 4800 firmware so that I can
> print his ink separation chart to see the hue of the individual inks.

That would be interesting.  The MIS supplier claims the new Epson 4800 grays
have been made more neutral with some colorant.  I'd like to see what the
spectrophotometer says about them.

> The fade tests will be key. 

Yes, but I'm not sure we'll pick up the top 10%, since the lightest patch I
have in the abbreviated fade test strips is 25%.  Could you send me a
standard 21-step test strip -- or just the 10% patch from such -- printed on
EAM/EEM in the neutral Advanced B&W mode?  I'll use the same paper to print
a 10% patch from UT7 (standard and with the UT-FSN-Y option).  That might
tell us how much the color highlights are going to affect the 4800 print
permanence.  I might be able to put the ramp in the fader, but a specific,
solid patch is more likely to be give better data.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Don't get me wrong. The bronzing issue is not gone.  I just think for most
PRACTICAL purposes it has largely been eliminated.  I think the gloss
differential issue is gone.  All else being equal, I still prefer matte
paper but when it comes to B&W I crave the extra dynamic range.  At the
moment that is only available by turning to photo papers and inks.  This is
where Epson have been focusing and have made some very real gains.  They
have also made real gains in the out-of-the-box/ease-of-use department for
prints to matte paper - but as I have said I don't think the boundary of
what CAN be achieved with the printer to matte paper has changed too much.
I suspect the next step which will please all of us will be the next
innovation in either matte black ink or the receptors in the paper (or both)
that will boost dynamic range on matte media.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:45:42 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 4800 v. UT7 1600 dpi scans
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I have a R2400 (as well as a R1800 and 2100), and, as you suggest, the R2400
> is far superior to the 2100 for B&W on glossy papers (even using IP). I
> shall now get rid of my 2100 and IP and use the 2400 for B&W on glossy
> papers and the 1800 for color on matte and glossy (no black carts to
> change).
> 
> Bob Frost.

Clayton,

The slightly veiled highlights are there for a reason, it seems. They add 
the gloss to the otherwise white areas that would appear less glossy than 
the inked areas on glossy papers. The R1800 solved this by adding Gloss 
Optimizer to these areas, but the R2400 has taken a different line. You only 
see that the highlights are "slightly veiled" as you describe it, if you 
leave the white surround on the print. If you trim that off or cover it with 
a matte, then that wonderful adaptive thing - the eye - "lifts the veil" and 
sees it as white. Not so good I suppose for those who spend all their time 
measuring blacks and whites with spectros instead of looking at pictures, 
but for those who use their eyes, it is a reasonable solution to the problem 
of pigment inks that sit on top of the glossy paper.

Not sure what you mean by "subtle color in the blacks". Unless you use BO, 
all/most blacks are going to show "subtle color" aren't they? They usually 
achieve neutral, cool, or warm blacks by adding subtle colors, either in the 
black ink or from another cart. Epson uses a trace of magenta and cyan to 
get neutral black in the R2400. The MIS UT7 inks use three colored toner 
inks, I believe, to get different tones, so what is the difference?

Having just got my R2400 to add to my R1800, I shall now get rid of my 2100 
and IP with the greatest of pleasure.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>

Amazing.  I have several 4800 prints on different papers and modes
with PK, and even on the best of them I found the overall look to be
"unconvincing" on close examination, though it looked excellent at
first glance.  I don't know if it's the shiny paper or the subtle
color in the blacks or the slightly veiled highlights (or all of the
above), but I just can't get excited about it.  I was hoping the 2400
had a BO mode because the 4800 BO print shows much promise.  But it
apparently has no BO mode.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> 
> Steve,
> 
>  
>> If you are using the test strips I sent they were definitely
>> done in Adv B&W mode...
> 
> Yes, these are scans from your EEM "N" test strip.  I might add that I think
> the test strips look very good.
> 
> My initial surprise from your test strips was that the 4800 produced such a
> good dmax on EEM and PremierArt 205 (much better than my 2200), yet the dmax
> on Permajet Alpha (same coating as Innova from what I can tell) was rather
> weak.  Perhaps the dither pattern is different and is the cause of this.  At
> any rate, Epson has clearly "fixed" most of the dmax problems of the 4000,
> and the prints from any reasonable viewing distance look very good.

So was I (as I have a bunch of this paper!).  I tried a number of different
paper settings - EEM, ESVE and Ultrasmooth - and the differences were not
material (L*=18.4 was the best fully dried on the paper you sent ie a dMax
of 1.58).

One thing, though.  If I recall correctly you were very specific about
printing on the convex side of the paper.  I note that Permajet instructs
people to print on the concave side.  At the time I thought it was odd but
followed your instructions.  When I have MK loaded again I will try some of
the Alpha paper I have here.

Steve Gledhill showed me some prints on Permajet Omega.  I loved the look of
that paper and I am going to try to find a pack - hopefully the dMax will be
better than the Alpha.




> 
>> The fade tests will be key.
> 
> Yes, but I'm not sure we'll pick up the top 10%, since the lightest patch I
> have in the abbreviated fade test strips is 25%.  Could you send me a
> standard 21-step test strip -- or just the 10% patch from such -- printed on
> EAM/EEM in the neutral Advanced B&W mode?  I'll use the same paper to print
> a 10% patch from UT7 (standard and with the UT-FSN-Y option).  That might
> tell us how much the color highlights are going to affect the 4800 print
> permanence.  I might be able to put the ramp in the fader, but a specific,
> solid patch is more likely to be give better data.


Sue.  I don't have MK ink loaded at the moment but when I do I will make the
print and send it off.

Bob 

The 4800 and I assume the 2400 can't lay down gloss - obviously.  I have
posted the results of 256 step wedges here before.  There is smooth
gradation all the way down to paper white on the 4800.  If someone is seeing
veiled highlights then it is either due to clipping to grey (ie workflow),
the 2400 being less precise than the 4800, or imagination....

Steve

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>

> 
> The slightly veiled highlights are there for a reason, it seems. They add
> the gloss to the otherwise white areas that would appear less glossy than
> the inked areas on glossy papers.

Steve,

From playing with my R2400 for a few days and reading the users guide, it 
seems to me that the 2400 can lay down some ink on a patch that is 
255,255,255. The purpose of the Highlight Point Shift checkbox under the 
Advanced B&W option is to:-

"Select this check box to add a small amount of ink onto the paper-white 
area on the full-page within the printable area, to match the glossy 
feeling." From Epson's Help.

Does the 4800 have this checkbox?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

The 4800 and I assume the 2400 can't lay down gloss - obviously.  I have
posted the results of 256 step wedges here before.  There is smooth
gradation all the way down to paper white on the 4800.  If someone is seeing
veiled highlights then it is either due to clipping to grey (ie workflow),
the 2400 being less precise than the 4800, or imagination....

Hello Bob,

>The slightly veiled highlights are there for a reason...
>You only see that the highlights are "slightly veiled" as you
>describe it, if you leave the white surround on the print. If 
>you trim that off or cover it with a matte, then that wonderful
>adaptive thing - the eye - "lifts the veil" and 
>sees it as white. 

Understood, thanks, a good explanation.  I have always lumped it
together under the broad explanation that even the white areas of the
print have "something" on the paper that prevents any uncoated paper
white to show through.  The effect of course varies with different ink
systems.

>Not so good I suppose for those who spend all their time measuring 
>blacks and whites with spectros 

That's definitely not me.  For me it comes from being spoiled by 3+
years of printing mostly BO.  Once you get used to its exceptional
luminance, caused by uncoated paper white showing, it's hard to accept
the veiled look.

>Not sure what you mean by "subtle color in the blacks". Unless 
>you use BO, all/most blacks are going to show "subtle color" 
>aren't they? They usually achieve neutral, cool, or warm blacks 
>by adding subtle colors, either in the black ink or from another cart. 

Yes, exactly.  Again (sorry to sound like a broken record), once you
get used to BO's un-colored black, you become sensitive to (and in my
case, unsatisfied with) the added color in other systems, either way
it's done.  I'm also convinced that Eboni BO prints will outlast toned
prints in the fade dept.  Every print I've had on my windowsill that
has colors in it has shown signs of fading, in various degrees and
time periods, but not the Eboni BO one. For these reasons I consider
Eboni BO to be superior except for the pesky graininess.  That's why
seeing the 4800 BO print gave me such hope for the 2400.  Whether from
the smaller dots or dither pattern or however, that was the smoothest
BO print I've seen and it preserved the luminance.  I'm really
disappointed that the 2400 doesn't have it.  I was all poised to get one.

I know many don't like BO, but many of us do and are willing to put up
with the graininess in order to have the other advantages.  There has
been plenty of validation for this. Over the past few years there have
been numerous reports of unbiased viewers preferring BO over full ink
prints when shown identical images printed both ways.  They don't
understand the technicalities, but just say it "looks better".  I've
shown BO prints to people for 3+ years now, including some experienced
darkroom people, and never once has anyone made a negative comment
about being dotty or grainy or whatever.  They always get positive
responses.

I'm becoming convinced that the ultimate compromise lies in a RIP/2K
system.  Both Carl Schofield and Steve Karafyllakis are experimenting
with QTR/2K using Eboni and a mixed LK and getting extremely smooth
results that preserves the luminance.  The stickler is the LK has to
have some cool toner mix of some sort.  Carl is using a mix right now
that has excellent luminance and isn't real obvious in coloration. 
I've also been trying it - the challenge is finding the right LK mix
that will work ok on different papers.  To me the ultimate would be to
find a way to dilute Eboni for the LK and avoid the toners.  Paul R.
has given me a couple of ideas for that, haven't tried them yet.  The
fat lady hasn't sung yet <g>.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Ah. Thanks for pointing that out - I had simply overlooked it.  Yes the 4800
has the same check box.  I wonder how much the whites get clipped if you
check that box.  I'll have to play with it when I get a chance.  I have not
used it.  In the 256 step wedges I printed one can just see that there is
ink laid down at patch 254 and the difference between 252 and paper white is
easily discernible. The only issue I had ever noticed with gloss
differential on photo paper was when I had blown a small portion of an image
to pure white against a solid black background.  In that image, if I tilted
it severely (to an impractical viewing angle) I could see the gloss
differential between the paper and the surrounding ink and because it was in
the centre of the image it was noticeable.  I doubt I would find cause to
check that box - and I think I would rather control the clipping with a
curve or levels adjustment.  One would never use it for matte paper output.
I wonder if the images that Clayton saw were printed with this box
checked...

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:05:53 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 4800 v. UT7 1600 dpi scans
> 
> Steve,
> 
> From playing with my R2400 for a few days and reading the users guide, it
> seems to me that the 2400 can lay down some ink on a patch that is
> 255,255,255. The purpose of the Highlight Point Shift checkbox under the
> Advanced B&W option is to:-
> 
> "Select this check box to add a small amount of ink onto the paper-white
> area on the full-page within the printable area, to match the glossy
> feeling." From Epson's Help.
> 
> Does the 4800 have this checkbox?
> 
> Bob Frost.

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>


> For these reasons I consider
> Eboni BO to be superior except for the pesky graininess.  That's why
> seeing the 4800 BO print gave me such hope for the 2400.  Whether from
> the smaller dots or dither pattern or however, that was the smoothest
> BO print I've seen and it preserved the luminance.  I'm really
> disappointed that the 2400 doesn't have it.  I was all poised to get one.

Does the UK driver have black only setting?  Bob?  I was reasonably
confident following my conversations with Epson UK that they would "put it
back" and when I saw it in the 4800 I thought they likely had.  It's a pity
if they haven't as it is really a no-brainer way to please a lot of people.
> 
> I know many don't like BO, but many of us do and are willing to put up
> with the graininess in order to have the other advantages.  There has
> been plenty of validation for this. Over the past few years there have
> been numerous reports of unbiased viewers preferring BO over full ink
> prints when shown identical images printed both ways.  They don't
> understand the technicalities, but just say it "looks better".  I've
> shown BO prints to people for 3+ years now, including some experienced
> darkroom people, and never once has anyone made a negative comment
> about being dotty or grainy or whatever.  They always get positive
> responses.

Yeah at 2880dpi and 3.5pl I reckon you've got to have a very good set of
eyes to see any dots without a decent magnifier.  One thing that may have
made the 4800 black only a bit better than the 21/2200 is if the greyscale
ramps more smoothly.  (I simply can't believe that your eye can pick up a
modest change in dither or dot size at 2880dpi when the dots aren't visible
but I could be wrong.)

Roy Harrington has some cool stuff on the way which will allow you to print
a step wedge, measure it and create a greyscale ICC profile for your
individual workflow, ink, paper etc.  We can circulate some 21/2200 Eboni
black only ICC profiles when this is finished.  This will make the BO
workflow even better in that it will simplify having to do a print s curve
etc.  It works wonders on the Epson Adv B&W matte paper workflow.
> 
> I'm becoming convinced that the ultimate compromise lies in a RIP/2K
> system.  Both Carl Schofield and Steve Karafyllakis are experimenting
> with QTR/2K using Eboni and a mixed LK and getting extremely smooth
> results that preserves the luminance.  The stickler is the LK has to
> have some cool toner mix of some sort.

Here again you may find Epson has helped if they have really neutralised the
LK (and LLK) ink.  You could run, say, Eboni and the 2400 Lk with QTR.
Although I thought Carl was using an already neutral MIS LK-N.


> Carl is using a mix right now
> that has excellent luminance and isn't real obvious in coloration.
> I've also been trying it - the challenge is finding the right LK mix
> that will work ok on different papers.  To me the ultimate would be to
> find a way to dilute Eboni for the LK and avoid the toners.
  
Or better yet actually have a true LK rather than a dilution.  I wonder if
the Epson LK and LLK are dilutions or "true" inks by which I mean the
pigment colour is fundamentally different from K.

But as you head down this route it is a sliding scale towards smoothness and
away from that mystical "luminance" you mention...kind of a Goldilocks
situation where you want smoothness but not too much.  I say "mystical
luminance" because while a greyscale made of just one ink versus several can
have the same luminance (in a technical sense) there is some quality about
the former which you prefer.  Not luminance but I think I know what you are
trying to express.  I just struggle to believe that the 4800's ink dot size
and dither is giving you the kicker you see in the 4800 prints (unless it is
the Epson MK vs Eboni but I doubt it).  Maybe it's just a good excuse to
fork out for a 4800....  :-)

> Yes, exactly.  Again (sorry to sound like a broken record), 
> once you get used to BO's un-colored black, you become 
> sensitive to (and in my case, unsatisfied with) the added 
> color in other systems, either way it's done.

I have also found this. I have only been darkroom printing since Jan, but
show me a B+W print from a colour inkjet, and you can see the tint. Its not
something that shouts at you, more a niggly feeling from the stomach, that
something isn't right...

And yes - it is unsatisfactory, when approached from the point of view of
using media, where balck is Black.


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

<I was hoping the 2400
had a BO mode because the 4800 BO print shows much promise. But it
apparently has no BO mode.>

Does the 4800 have a BO mode using only ONE black ink?

Or, are you refering to the Advanced B&W mode that uses all 3 black 
inks?

(Couldn't find anything on the Epson site stating the 4800 has a BO 
mode using only one black ink: http://www.epson.com/cgi-
bin/Store/Landing/UltraChromeK3.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes )

Thanks Clayton,

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> To me the ultimate would be to
> find a way to dilute Eboni for the LK and avoid the toners. 

There should be very few issues with diluting the Eboni or an 
equivalent ink as long as someone is willing to tell you what product 
you need to do this correctly. Clayton, I sent some info regarding this 
to you off list, hopefully it will get through.

Scott

I "only" have a 6x loupe and I guess it is impossible to tell (I am looking
at a BO step wedge on ISP now) whether it is 3K or 1K.  It is certainly a
lot grainier in the highlights than an Adv B&W step wedge and warmer in tone
in steps 35-80.  Steps 5-30 appear quite neutral.  Maybe you are correct.
(To be clear, there are three options in the driver: colour, Adv B&W and
black.)

If that is the case, then the maybe the gain Clayton sees in the 4800 print
is simply due to a greater and smoother ink coverage rather than less.  That
would be odd because this has been available for some time, eg the MIS FSN
inks.

For those who can read the numbers, here are the results of a Quickread of a
21-step wedge on ISP (sorry I am not going to change inks just to post the
results for matte paper).  You can see how the colour gets very warm in the
middle and very cool as they paper comes through in the highlights.

  
 L       a       b       V
 95.66  -0.36    -5.31   0.05
 87.35  -0.25    -4.48   0.15
 82.25  -0.39    -3.32   0.22
 77.53   -0.5     -2.27   0.28
 73.21  -0.62    -1.38   0.34
 68.93  -0.77    -0.46   0.41
 65.03  -0.89    0.41    0.47
 61.11  -0.99    1.41    0.53
 56.34  -1.15    2.65    0.62
 52.59  -1.21    3.77    0.68
 48.23  -1.17    5.26    0.77
 44.28  -0.94    6.71    0.85
 39.89  -0.5     8.09    0.95
 35.94  -0.07    8.85    1.04
 31.86  0.28     9.14    1.14
 26.18  0.45     8.67    1.31
 21.16  0.28     7.77    1.47
 15.91  0.05     6.89    1.67
 10.15  0.25     5.18    1.93
 4.64   0.02      1.04    2.29
 2.79   -0.18     -0.61   2.52


Steve

> From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:15:31 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 4800 v. UT7 1600 dpi scans
> 
> <I was hoping the 2400
> had a BO mode because the 4800 BO print shows much promise. But it
> apparently has no BO mode.>
> 
> Does the 4800 have a BO mode using only ONE black ink?
> 
> Or, are you refering to the Advanced B&W mode that uses all 3 black
> inks?
> 
> (Couldn't find anything on the Epson site stating the 4800 has a BO
> mode using only one black ink: http://www.epson.com/cgi-
> bin/Store/Landing/UltraChromeK3.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes )
> 
> Thanks Clayton,
> 
> Scott

Steve,

>Yeah at 2880dpi and 3.5pl I reckon you've got to have a very 
>good set of eyes to see any dots without a decent magnifier.  

It's not so much a matter of seeing dots, it's just a grainy look
(what I call Digital Tri-X) that is most obvious in the midtones. 
That's why images with important smooth midtone areas can look weak,
while others look great.  I will on occasion as a last resort print
something with UTx3 because of that, even though other aspects of the
print may be weaker than with BO.  I haven't kept exact score, but I'd
guess around 98% or 99% of my prints are BO.


>I simply can't believe that your eye can pick up a modest change 
>in dither or dot size at 2880dpi when the dots aren't visible
>but I could be wrong.

I have no idea what I picked up on.  The print is simply the smoothest
BO print I've seen.  One thing that may be a factor is that my 2200
will print a smoother BO print with PK than with MK.  I suspect the
dither pattern or dot size or both are changing.  I tried to fool it
once by putting a PK chip on a cart with Eboni to see if I could get
the smoother look, but it looked awful as the ramp was totally screwed
up - most likely is different because of the nature of the ink.  So I
suspect the same may be true with the 4800, and an MK BO print may not
be as smooth.  Another side to this is that the 4000 has a more random
BO dither pattern than the 2200 (which looks like a bunch of
squigglies) and produces a slightly smoother BO print, so it's
possible a 2400 MK BO print, if there can be such a thing, may not be
as smooth as a 4800 one.  So there are still lots of unanswered
questions.  But I've learned enough that I'm not going to buy a 2400
right now.  I'll wait for more reports to come in.


>Here again you may find Epson has helped if they have really
>neutralised the LK (and LLK) ink.  

Based on what I saw in the PK-ABW samples they are still warm. The
toning appears to come from the color dots, as Paul's scans showed.
But I'll wait and see what users report.



>Although I thought Carl was using an already neutral MIS LK-N.

Perhaps he's tried many things, but I have a print of his that is
50:50 UT7-LM:UT7-LC and it looks real nice.


 
>But as you head down this route it is a sliding scale towards
>smoothness and away from that mystical "luminance" you mention

Not necessarily.  QTR/2K prints are extremely smooth without
sacrificing the luminance.



>...kind of a Goldilocks situation where you want smoothness but 
>not too much.  I say "mystical luminance" because while a 
>greyscale made of just one ink versus several can have the same
>luminance (in a technical sense) there is some quality about
>the former which you prefer.  

It's interesting that you apply "mystical" to something which you
don't personally perceive (as if to imply that your knowledge is so
superior that if you don't perceive it it can't possibly be true), and
continue to rely on technical theory for everything, which may be an
explanation for why you don't perceive some things and continually use
expressions such as "I can't possibly understand why..." or "I can't
imagine that anyone..." or "I simply can't believe that..." (see
above) and so on, in your posts.  You have a pattern of applying these
subtle put-downs (and sometimes not so subtle) to things other people
say here.  There are some people who have been insulted to such a
degree that they avoid this forum now because of it.  

One thing that I and many others love about BO and refer to as
luminance, and which is clearly visible to us, is nothing mystical at
all.  It is very simply that bare uncovered paper surface is allowed
to show through between the dots.  This paper surface has a reflective
quality that imparts a wonderful glow to the print.  When anything
covers it (even something clear or light enough that the "whiteness"
may read the same on an instrument), this reflective quality is
diminished and the difference shows - it's the "veiled look" that I
refer to.  It's really that simple.  The degree of it varies among the
different full ink systems, and it is clearly noticeable to anyone who
is used to the sparkling glow of BO prints.   

The QTR/2K prints that some are experimenting with so far seem to
preserve the luminance quite nicely.  Steve Karafyllakis is doing
some gorgeous stuff that way.  The problem he's encountering is
finding an LK mix that will work satisfactorily on different papers. 
That's proving to be the real challenge.  The 2K part has proven
itself.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I've placed some comparison images of 4800 and 2200 UT7 reflections on my
web page, accessible directly at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800-2200-Reflections.html or from the bottom
of my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm .

I wish there were a more scientific way to measure reflective artifacts, but
this is what I have at the moment.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> ...but as I have said I don't think the boundary of
> what CAN be achieved with the printer to matte paper has changed too
much.

I don't exactly how the Epson driver may be utilizing it, but I would
expect significant performance improvements on any commonly used
inkjet surface to be enhanced by the addition of a 3rd, and lighter, K
ink. Both in color and B&W. Again, how the Epson driver makes use of
it is the key.
I suspect that QTR users and those with other drivers giving user
control of each tank will see considerable benifit from it.
I look forward to trying it myself. Also, Cone's new neutral set being
made available in 7 dilutions may be a very interesting addition to
these setups. Quite possibly 3 carefully chosen from that set will
make excellent neutral axis ramps.
Things continue to get interesting.
Tyler

You said it.

Jon said you could use that new neutral set in 6 channel printers( for as long 
as they last) also by eliminating one of the dark greys. This could produce a 
true hextone print of outstanding delicacy, and even better with 7. I want to try 
that too as well as the three black uc solution. Of course Epson would love to 
see all these older printers go away forever so they can control it all. I can tell 
you right now they will make it really hard to get service on them if your out of 
warranty. Get ready to learn how to work on printers yourself. Now they won't 
even sell anymore of the older 7 channel machines. They would probably 
rather pile them up and burn em rather than risk us using them for our non-
epson purposes. But complaining aside, we are in for one great year of black 
and white output, regardless of how you look at it. Kodak is smart to eliminate 
their chemical division. That is all over.

John

> I suspect that QTR users and those with other drivers giving user
> control of each tank will see considerable benifit from it.
> I look forward to trying it myself. Also, Cone's new neutral set being
> made available in 7 dilutions may be a very interesting addition to
> these setups. Quite possibly 3 carefully chosen from that set will
> make excellent neutral axis ramps.
> Things continue to get interesting.
> Tyler

Paul Roark wrote:

>I've placed some comparison images of 4800 and 2200 UT7 reflections on my
>web page, accessible directly at
>http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/4800-2200-Reflections.html or from the bottom
>of my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm .
>
>I wish there were a more scientific way to measure reflective artifacts, but
>this is what I have at the moment.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com 
>
>
>  
>
There are but for that you have to go to the paint industry etc. 
Ulbricht Sphere, 45 degrees deflection and variable angle. Spot reading 
of uniform surfaces though.
An old scanner with the glass removed and the lamp and sensor 
repositioned (strip mirror at another angle) could be a solution. 21 
greyscale target print clamped on a metal mask where the glasplate was. 
Reading the strip over the length to keep the same lens angle. Have to 
ask the boys whether the old Scanjet is still used.
A Canon 350D :-) with a long lens facing a print at 45 degrees and a 
bare lamp at the same distance and opposite angle.

You may need a 21 step target with black and white lines running through 
it as the contrast edges seem to play a role in normal pics too, call it 
gloss accutance. The varnished target that I have here has an embossed 
black patch so to speak. The black needs more grey ink boost.

For ink limit checks it is better to have a target with thin contrasty 
lines in it anyway. But not where the density is measured.

Ernst

Luminance is a very well defined term.  Don't get me wrong, I understand
that there is something that you are attracted to with black only and that
something is real.  It is not "luminance" though.  Prints don't luminate,
they reflect light when illuminated.  Reflectance can be measured as can
luminance.  It's not a put down and I tried to make myself clear in the
earlier post.  I think you take offence too easily but then that's just my
opinion.  Just continue to have fun.  :-)

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>

> 
> 
> 
>> ...kind of a Goldilocks situation where you want smoothness but
>> not too much.  I say "mystical luminance" because while a
>> greyscale made of just one ink versus several can have the same
>> luminance (in a technical sense) there is some quality about
>> the former which you prefer.
> 
> It's interesting that you apply "mystical" to something which you
> don't personally perceive (as if to imply that your knowledge is so
> superior that if you don't perceive it it can't possibly be true), and
> continue to rely on technical theory for everything, which may be an
> explanation for why you don't perceive some things and continually use
> expressions such as "I can't possibly understand why..." or "I can't
> imagine that anyone..." or "I simply can't believe that..." (see
> above) and so on, in your posts.  You have a pattern of applying these
> subtle put-downs (and sometimes not so subtle) to things other people
> say here.  There are some people who have been insulted to such a
> degree that they avoid this forum now because of it.
> 
> One thing that I and many others love about BO and refer to as
> luminance, and which is clearly visible to us, is nothing mystical at
> all.  It is very simply that bare uncovered paper surface is allowed
> to show through between the dots.  This paper surface has a reflective
> quality that imparts a wonderful glow to the print.  When anything
> covers it (even something clear or light enough that the "whiteness"
> may read the same on an instrument), this reflective quality is
> diminished and the difference shows - it's the "veiled look" that I
> refer to.  It's really that simple.  The degree of it varies among the
> different full ink systems, and it is clearly noticeable to anyone who
> is used to the sparkling glow of BO prints.
> 
> The QTR/2K prints that some are experimenting with so far seem to
> preserve the luminance quite nicely.  Steve Karafyllakis is doing
> some gorgeous stuff that way.  The problem he's encountering is
> finding an LK mix that will work satisfactorily on different papers.
> That's proving to be the real challenge.  The 2K part has proven
> itself.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Hello Scott,

>Does the 4800 have a BO mode using only ONE black ink?

Best I can tell it appears to be just one ink, but I'm not looking at
a ramp, just a print with a lot of smooth gradations.  But I can only
detect a single shade of dots.



>Or, are you refering to the Advanced B&W mode that uses all 3 black 
>inks?

The person who sent me the print said it is a BO print (using PK). 
The ABW prints he sent use more than just the 3 blacks.  The blacks
are warm so colors are added to do the toning.  Paul Roark posted some
scans of prints that show the color dots.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

If the density of the Epson LK3 is the same or even close to the  
original UC LK I will try it in my 4000.  I'm not happy with the MIS  
UT7 LK that I've been using in my 4000 because I've been getting hue  
shifts (towards yellow) when printing for neutral and I have to add  
LM and LC to get neutrality.  The whole point of switching to the UT7  
LK was to avoid toning with the cyan and magenta inks, but It doesn't  
work.  Using a 50:50 mix of UT7 LC and LM position grays gets me a  
more neutral composite gray in my 2200 and I may try this as well in  
the 4000 if the LK3 doesn't work.  I would also like to have a  
MATCHED, NEUTRAL K and LK  for use in the 4000, but it looks like  
this will require a "roll your own " approach as the stock inks don't  
cut it.

Carl


>
>
>> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
>>
>
>
>
>> For these reasons I consider
>> Eboni BO to be superior except for the pesky graininess.  That's why
>> seeing the 4800 BO print gave me such hope for the 2400.  Whether  
>> from
>> the smaller dots or dither pattern or however, that was the smoothest
>> BO print I've seen and it preserved the luminance.  I'm really
>> disappointed that the 2400 doesn't have it.  I was all poised to  
>> get one.
>>
>
> Does the UK driver have black only setting?  Bob?  I was reasonably
> confident following my conversations with Epson UK that they would  
> "put it
> back" and when I saw it in the 4800 I thought they likely had.   
> It's a pity
> if they haven't as it is really a no-brainer way to please a lot of  
> people.
>
>>
>> I know many don't like BO, but many of us do and are willing to  
>> put up
>> with the graininess in order to have the other advantages.  There has
>> been plenty of validation for this. Over the past few years there  
>> have
>> been numerous reports of unbiased viewers preferring BO over full ink
>> prints when shown identical images printed both ways.  They don't
>> understand the technicalities, but just say it "looks better".  I've
>> shown BO prints to people for 3+ years now, including some  
>> experienced
>> darkroom people, and never once has anyone made a negative comment
>> about being dotty or grainy or whatever.  They always get positive
>> responses.
>>
>
> Yeah at 2880dpi and 3.5pl I reckon you've got to have a very good  
> set of
> eyes to see any dots without a decent magnifier.  One thing that  
> may have
> made the 4800 black only a bit better than the 21/2200 is if the  
> greyscale
> ramps more smoothly.  (I simply can't believe that your eye can  
> pick up a
> modest change in dither or dot size at 2880dpi when the dots aren't  
> visible
> but I could be wrong.)
>
> Roy Harrington has some cool stuff on the way which will allow you  
> to print
> a step wedge, measure it and create a greyscale ICC profile for your
> individual workflow, ink, paper etc.  We can circulate some 21/2200  
> Eboni
> black only ICC profiles when this is finished.  This will make the BO
> workflow even better in that it will simplify having to do a print  
> s curve
> etc.  It works wonders on the Epson Adv B&W matte paper workflow.
>
>>
>> I'm becoming convinced that the ultimate compromise lies in a RIP/2K
>> system.  Both Carl Schofield and Steve Karafyllakis are experimenting
>> with QTR/2K using Eboni and a mixed LK and getting extremely smooth
>> results that preserves the luminance.  The stickler is the LK has to
>> have some cool toner mix of some sort.
>>
>
> Here again you may find Epson has helped if they have really  
> neutralised the
> LK (and LLK) ink.  You could run, say, Eboni and the 2400 Lk with QTR.
> Although I thought Carl was using an already neutral MIS LK-N.
>
>
>
>> Carl is using a mix right now
>> that has excellent luminance and isn't real obvious in coloration.
>> I've also been trying it - the challenge is finding the right LK mix
>> that will work ok on different papers.  To me the ultimate would  
>> be to
>> find a way to dilute Eboni for the LK and avoid the toners.
>>
>
> Or better yet actually have a true LK rather than a dilution.  I  
> wonder if
> the Epson LK and LLK are dilutions or "true" inks by which I mean the
> pigment colour is fundamentally different from K.
>
> But as you head down this route it is a sliding scale towards  
> smoothness and
> away from that mystical "luminance" you mention...kind of a Goldilocks
> situation where you want smoothness but not too much.  I say "mystical
> luminance" because while a greyscale made of just one ink versus  
> several can
> have the same luminance (in a technical sense) there is some  
> quality about
> the former which you prefer.  Not luminance but I think I know what  
> you are
> trying to express.  I just struggle to believe that the 4800's ink  
> dot size
> and dither is giving you the kicker you see in the 4800 prints  
> (unless it is
> the Epson MK vs Eboni but I doubt it).  Maybe it's just a good  
> excuse to
> fork out for a 4800....  :-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton,

 I just read this "blog" and he states that the Avd B&W mode uses the 
3 blacks and the LM and LC inks: 


http://www.petewalsh.com.au/epson4800blog/2005/05/advanced-bw-
available-with-matte-black.cfm

If there's a BO mode too, that would be great!

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Scott,
> 
> >Does the 4800 have a BO mode using only ONE black ink?
> 
> Best I can tell it appears to be just one ink, but I'm not looking 
at
> a ramp, just a print with a lot of smooth gradations.  But I can 
only
> detect a single shade of dots.
> 
> 
> 
> >Or, are you refering to the Advanced B&W mode that uses all 3 
black 
> >inks?
> 
> The person who sent me the print said it is a BO print (using PK). 
> The ABW prints he sent use more than just the 3 blacks.  The blacks
> are warm so colors are added to do the toning.  Paul Roark posted 
some

> scans of prints that show the color dots.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Arguably you can get the jump on us 4800 owners because you can run the new
inks with QTR now in your 4000.  I would be keen to hear what the three Ks
look like printed as separate step wedges.

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:28:39 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 4800 v. UT7 1600 dpi scans
> 
> If the density of the Epson LK3 is the same or even close to the
> original UC LK I will try it in my 4000.  I'm not happy with the MIS
> UT7 LK that I've been using in my 4000 because I've been getting hue
> shifts (towards yellow) when printing for neutral and I have to add
> LM and LC to get neutrality.  The whole point of switching to the UT7
> LK was to avoid toning with the cyan and magenta inks, but It doesn't
> work.  Using a 50:50 mix of UT7 LC and LM position grays gets me a
> more neutral composite gray in my 2200 and I may try this as well in
> the 4000 if the LK3 doesn't work.  I would also like to have a
> MATCHED, NEUTRAL K and LK  for use in the 4000, but it looks like
> this will require a "roll your own " approach as the stock inks don't
> cut it.
> 
> Carl

Carl,

> ... I'm not happy with the MIS
> UT7 LK that I've been using in my 4000 because I've been getting hue
> shifts (towards yellow) when printing for neutral and I have to add
> LM and LC to get neutrality.  The whole point of switching to the UT7
> LK was to avoid toning with the cyan and magenta inks, but It doesn't
> work.

The UT7 LK(N) was mixed only to give more neutral shadows when the 2200
Epson driver was used in slider mode.  It is not an appropriate mix for a
mid-tone neutral ink.

> Using a 50:50 mix of UT7 LC and LM position grays gets me a
> more neutral composite gray in my 2200 

That is exactly as it should be.  These inks are equal in density to about a
50% dilution of LK.  I would expect the Epson lightest ink to be at least a
30% dilution of LK.  That is about the dilution from PK to LK in MIS inks.

I'm starting to use FS-Y (the same density as the old PiezoBW lightest --
Y-position -- ink) in my UT7 setup to get the smoothest highlights possible.
But, its dilution is closer to the equivalent of only 8% LK.  The
density-pigment load (dilution) curve is very non-linear near the ends.

>  I would also like to have a MATCHED, NEUTRAL K and LK  ...

The problem is that the same ratio of MIS R800 Blue to 7600 Cyan ("RB:C"
ratio) changes as one moves up the scale.  If one uses a static mix like the
UT1 toner, which was made for quad printers, what looks best at the 50%
patch will look very magenta in the shadows of many papers.  Counteracting
this magenta bias of the shadows is why the LKN was mixed the way it was.

For those using LK as the neutral and highlight ink, the color ink mix (RB:C
ratio) should be like the UT1 toner.  That is what the UT2 and UT7 cold
light gray inks use.  The darker cold grays, however, have a different color
mix.  

(Carl, if you wanted to try an educated "shot-in-the-dark" LKN-2 mix with
the standard midtone color mix, I could send you a bottle.  However, I don't
have the time right now to do the testing needed to get the gamut such that
it would match PKN right on.  Then again, it would be different for
different papers anyway.  That's a major reason why I prefer a variable-tone
approach.)

My next ink project is to focus on control of the shadows for my upgraded
7600 UT7, since that can now be done with a rip.  That is, I'll add control
of the green-magenta axis in the shadows, as well as the current carbon
(yellow)-blue axis.  This project is going to have to wait until late
August, however.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Thanks for the clarification on the MIS LKN ink design.  It sounds  
like there is no escaping the use of toners - either via a RIP with  
cyan and magenta or through the use of additional toned gray inks in  
order to maintain a consistent, neutral grayscale.  I was looking for  
an FSN type result, but with only two gray inks (K+LK) and this seems  
to be possible only if the LK is tailored to a specific paper, which  
makes sense.

Carl

On Jun 28, 2005, at 8:28 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Carl,
>
>
>> ... I'm not happy with the MIS
>> UT7 LK that I've been using in my 4000 because I've been getting hue
>> shifts (towards yellow) when printing for neutral and I have to add
>> LM and LC to get neutrality.  The whole point of switching to the UT7
>> LK was to avoid toning with the cyan and magenta inks, but It doesn't
>> work.
>>
>
> The UT7 LK(N) was mixed only to give more neutral shadows when the  
> 2200
> Epson driver was used in slider mode.  It is not an appropriate mix  
> for a
> mid-tone neutral ink.
>
>
>> Using a 50:50 mix of UT7 LC and LM position grays gets me a
>> more neutral composite gray in my 2200
>>
>
> That is exactly as it should be.  These inks are equal in density  
> to about a
> 50% dilution of LK.  I would expect the Epson lightest ink to be at  
> least a
> 30% dilution of LK.  That is about the dilution from PK to LK in  
> MIS inks.
>
> I'm starting to use FS-Y (the same density as the old PiezoBW  
> lightest --
> Y-position -- ink) in my UT7 setup to get the smoothest highlights  
> possible.
> But, its dilution is closer to the equivalent of only 8% LK.  The
> density-pigment load (dilution) curve is very non-linear near the  
> ends.
>
>
>>  I would also like to have a MATCHED, NEUTRAL K and LK  ...
>>
>
> The problem is that the same ratio of MIS R800 Blue to 7600 Cyan  
> ("RB:C"
> ratio) changes as one moves up the scale.  If one uses a static mix  
> like the
> UT1 toner, which was made for quad printers, what looks best at the  
> 50%
> patch will look very magenta in the shadows of many papers.   
> Counteracting
> this magenta bias of the shadows is why the LKN was mixed the way  
> it was.
>
> For those using LK as the neutral and highlight ink, the color ink  
> mix (RB:C
> ratio) should be like the UT1 toner.  That is what the UT2 and UT7  
> cold
> light gray inks use.  The darker cold grays, however, have a  
> different color
> mix.
>
> (Carl, if you wanted to try an educated "shot-in-the-dark" LKN-2  
> mix with
> the standard midtone color mix, I could send you a bottle.   
> However, I don't
> have the time right now to do the testing needed to get the gamut  
> such that
> it would match PKN right on.  Then again, it would be different for
> different papers anyway.  That's a major reason why I prefer a  
> variable-tone
> approach.)
>
> My next ink project is to focus on control of the shadows for my  
> upgraded
> 7600 UT7, since that can now be done with a rip.  That is, I'll add  
> control
> of the green-magenta axis in the shadows, as well as the current  
> carbon
> (yellow)-blue axis.  This project is going to have to wait until late
> August, however.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carl,

> ... It sounds like there is no escaping the use of toners - 
> either via a RIP with cyan and magenta or through the use 
>of additional toned gray inks in order to maintain a consistent, 
>neutral grayscale. 

I think that is correct with what we're currently doing.  "Consistent" and
"neutral" are what make it more work.  The eye is very sensitive to color
shifts around the neutral zone, and consistency is not the first thing that
comes to mind with respect some of our materials.

> I was looking for an FSN type result, but with only two gray inks 
>(K+LK) 

That is easy, but FSN was neither neutral nor consistent.  Seriously, I can
mix you an LK-N2 that will allow you to match the UT-FSN tones in about 15
minutes.  If the mix looks good, MIS will make and sell it.  I see the need
for such an ink.

> and this seems to be possible only if the LK is tailored to a specific
> paper, which makes sense.

Well, now you're asking for something beyond FSN or any monotone -- thus my
late August project to get the second axis under control sufficiently so we
can profile more papers and significantly correct for the inconsistencies of
our materials. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I called Epson UK Tech Support.  In order to answer the question he had to
call two "specialists" (the first referring him to the second).  Apparently,
the only way to get a true black only print from the 4800 (using just the K
ink slot) is by selecting Plain Paper in which case the the maximum dpi is
720 and banding will result.  Otherwise, the "Black" setting uses all three
K inks and "even a little of the colour inks".  He was a bit vague on the
latter saying that it was required to keep the nozzles clear etc.  So the
print that shows much promise is a greyscale of at least 3 K inks....

We chatted for a while as to why they wouldn't retain the legacy black only
option while they continue to push forward on both the colour and Adv B&W
fronts, particularly as the only other people likely to select that option
in the driver were those printing simple black text pages or similar in
which case they likely couldn't care less about the smoothness of the
greyscale.  Needless to say I did not make too much progress.

Sorry Clayton I was hoping I would have good news for you but it seems not.
Of course, a RIP like QTR can always do true black only but I suspect that
many (not all by any means) were attracted to black only, in part, by its
ease of use and going to a RIP may turn many away, particularly when the
Epson Adv B&W is so good out-of-the-box - but then I could be wrong.

> From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>

> 
> <I was hoping the 2400
> had a BO mode because the 4800 BO print shows much promise. But it
> apparently has no BO mode.>
> 
> Does the 4800 have a BO mode using only ONE black ink?
> 
> Or, are you refering to the Advanced B&W mode that uses all 3 black
> inks?
> 
> (Couldn't find anything on the Epson site stating the 4800 has a BO
> mode using only one black ink: http://www.epson.com/cgi-
> bin/Store/Landing/UltraChromeK3.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes )
> 
> Thanks Clayton,
> 
> Scott

What is concensus (or opinion) about best-looking ink for 2200 on
generic matte/watercolor/un-whitened papers? Is it UT7 ? 

* Let's just talk about looks, not "archival." 

Apologies to Archival Taliban :-)

Djon


> 
> > From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...>
 
   Using a 50:50 mix of UT7 LC and LM position grays gets me a

> > more neutral composite gray in my 2200 and I may try this as well in
> > the 4000 if the LK3 doesn't work.   
> > 
> > Carl